As to Craig Olsen's assertion that wood and water ballast *will* affect boat buoyancy, we are talking about different things. I am concerned about buoyancy when swamped. If you add lead ballast to your kayak and it fills with water, it could sink, whereas before the lead was added it might float -- unless you provided additional floatation. If you add water or wood ballast, then you don't have to increase floatation because both are neutral or buoyant in a swamped boat. For example, if you added 64 lbs of lead to a boat, you would need to add a 1 cu. ft. air bag to float that lead it if you swamped. It is just simpler to forget the lead and instead add a 1 cu. ft. water bag to get the same 64 lbs. of ballast. Ken Cooperstein *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, TomTotem... wrote: >> >>At 07:07 AM 2/10/98 -0800, Dave Kruger wrote: >>snip----------> >>>An inch can make a substantial difference -- remember, the paddler is by >>>far the largest load increment in a yak. To see the effect of moving a >>>180 lb paddler's body an inch fore or aft, try a 10 lb weight 18 inches >>>fore or aft of the CG of the system. A bag of lead shot is a good way >>>to find how much/which way to move the seat. The CG is probably pretty >>>much directly under the center of your butt, when you are in the yak. >> >> Sort of on topic-I weigh in at a socking wet 138 lbs. I've heard that my >>Pursuit would paddle measurably better with a heavier paddler. [and no I >>didn't offer to sell it to the 180 pounder that said it! <g>] >> >> My question: Would the addition of bags of lead shot in the fore and after >>compartments be a viable alternative to loading it with "kind of junk >>that's heavy and will fit in the hatch?" <G> It sounds good-I'm guessing >>that I'd then want to put air bags on top of them to keep them stable-or >>would velcro suffice? The idea of having say 10 or 20 lbs of the stuff >>flopping around during a roll. or brace doesn't interest me at all... >> >> Lastly, where does one purchase bags of lead shot? Is it ridiculously >>expensive? Guess I'd never given consideration to using lead before... >> >> Tom... >> >> >>Three left turns often make a right... and two wrights make an airplane ;-) ... and on a MUCH more serious note, lead poisoning is serious, it is cumulative, and stays in your system all your life, difficult to remove heavy metals from the human body.. with that said, check a gun shop?? though i don't know the laws about lead shot, i think it's illegal for hunting, but many reloaders use it for skeet shooting, as it is softer than the barrel of their expensive guns ;-) me, i'd use steel shot. put the weight as close to the center of gravity [CG] as possible. the swing weight at the ends of your boat would make any boat feel like a pig, as far as handling goes. you seem to be on the right track. mark #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com-------------------------------------- mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/cpr [Colorado Paddlers' Resource] http://www.diac.com/~zen/rmskc [Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club] http://www.diac.com/~zen/rmcc [Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page] http://www.diac.com/~zen/mark [personal] -- Fortune: "I must have a prodigious quantity of mind; it takes me as much as a week sometimes to make it up." -- Mark Twain, "The Innocents Abroad" *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
One possible solution to the ballast issue: I bought some straps from REI and "epoxied" one in the bow compartment, one just in front of the seat, one just behind the seat, and one in the stern compartment. I used 2 wide ice cream sticks to form an H on each one to insure they would not pull up on the sides. I also used some wood dust to make the epoxy about the consistency of peanut butter for a really strong bond. I am going to use soft weights (can be bought in various weights from any scuba shop) and basically cinch them down into the bottom of the boat with the straps. I would suggest using straps that are long enough so that when one is not using the weights, but is packing gear into the boat, that the straps can double to go around gear and secure the gear if needed. It would seem that the straps could also be used to secure "lead sheet" also. I am toying with the idea of using pvc pipe filled with lead shot. The lead shot can be bought from any gun shop in bags of about 25 lbs. They sell for $17.95 a bag here in Mayberry. Hope this helps. Richard Fawcett Mayberry, NC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Richard Fawcett wrote: > be used to secure "lead sheet" also. I am toying with the idea of using > pvc pipe filled with lead shot. The lead shot can be bought from any > gun shop in bags of about 25 lbs. They sell for $17.95 a bag here in > Mayberry. If you do use lead shot, make sure it's well sealed in the tube, and consider adding something to seal the lead or keep it dry. Lead will oxidize, and shot, having a large surface area, will oxidize fast in a humid environment. For about 30-50% more than standard lead shot you can get copper or iron plated shot that's more corrosion resistant. You can also get steel shot, which is non-toxic if it does oxidize. Here's a thought: Take that bag of shot and drop it into an inexpensive vinyl dry bag together with a few dessicant packs. --mike (anyone got any depeleted uranium lying around?) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Edelman mje_at_mich.com http://www.mich.com/~mje/kayak.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
> On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Richard Fawcett wrote: > > (anyone got any depeleted uranium lying around?) > Actually that's not as off the wall as you might think. depleted uranium is used in aircraft manufacturing to balance the CG of aircraft..especially the ones built in Seattle. If you have a connection.... cya Bob Denton Vice President Undersea Breathing Systems bob_at_dnax.com http://www.dnax.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Bob Denton wrote: > > > On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Richard Fawcett wrote: > > > > > (anyone got any depeleted uranium lying around?) > > > > Actually that's not as off the wall as you might think. depleted > uranium is used in aircraft manufacturing to balance the CG of > aircraft..especially the ones built in Seattle. If you have a > connection.... > Ship's ballast, too; I recall a 300' three masted ship built by a French consortium for the round-the-wold singlehanded race a few years ago used a DU ballast. I'm only *half* joking... ;-) --mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Edelman mje_at_mich.com http://www.mich.com/kayak.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Richard Fawcett wrote: > One possible solution to the ballast issue: I know two people who have ballast in their baidarkas. One person uses 25 lbs of dive weights strapped to the floorboards in the cockpit. The second person uses lead shot in pvc tubing, he also has 25 lbs worth (they paddle replicas of the same hull). They use the ballast not to adjust trim but to help keep the boats upright ;-) If you use pellets in pvc tubing be sure the end caps are secure and won't accidently pull off if you catch the end cap on something. Paul, the person with the pvc/shot ballast, accidently pulled off one endcap in his boat and another time lost an endcap in his truck. He is still finding pellets in his truck and boat. kirk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
At 09:51 AM 2/11/98 -0500, Richard Fawcett wrote: >One possible solution to the ballast issue: >I bought some straps from REI and "epoxied" one in the bow compartment, snip----------> *That* was the other thing I was trying to remember to do... epoxy the padeyes for my pump and float... Thanks for the reminder... snip----------> >pvc pipe filled with lead shot. The lead shot can be bought from any >gun shop in bags of about 25 lbs. They sell for $17.95 a bag here in >Mayberry. Thanks again, guess it's time to head back to the range... Tom Weese Kirkland, Wa. Three left turns often make a right... <http://www.isomedia.com/homes/gadfly/> *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Kenneth Cooperstein wrote: > I don't think adding dense ballast to a kayak -- even removable ballast > -- is a good idea. You never know when you will need all the floatation > you can get. Before I would use lead, steel or rocks, I would first try > wood or water -- both of which will not affect buouyancy in a swamped > craft. As for water, I would use pool cover tubes or a poly water > bottle in the compartment where it is needed. This isn't quite true. While wood will generally float, it is still much heavier than air and will decrease the buoyancy of the boat. Water weighs 62.4 lbs. per cubic foot (8.34 lbs. per gallon) and will definitely decrease the buoyancy - a swamped kayak doesn't float well because it's full of water! As far as adding 25 or 50 lbs. of ballast, a typical yak has about 100 gallons of volume, or about 834 lbs. of buoyancy. Assuming a 200 LB paddler and 150 lbs. of hear, you still have over 480 lbs. of net buoyancy in the craft and 25 or 50 lbs. won't really make that much difference. My 2 cents. Craig Olson Bellingham, Washington *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Kenneth Cooperstein wrote: > As to Craig Olsen's assertion that wood and water ballast *will* affect > boat buoyancy, we are talking about different things. I am concerned > about buoyancy when swamped. If you add lead ballast to your kayak and > it fills with water, it could sink, whereas before the lead was added it > might float -- unless you provided additional floatation. If you add > water or wood ballast, then you don't have to increase floatation > because both are neutral or buoyant in a swamped boat. But they're less dense, and so you need *more* to get equivalent stability, as lead will be carried much lower in the boat, being 11.34x as dense. Water ballast has a problem in that being neutrally bouyant it doesn't add any resistence to heeling until it's actually out of the water. Sailboats that use water ballast have to carry a *lot* of it, usually either side of the keel. Water ballast is handy for trailerable boats, or if you're backpacking your kayak as well, I suppose. > For example, if you added 64 lbs of lead to a boat, you would need to > add a 1 cu. ft. air bag to float that lead it if you swamped. It is > just simpler to forget the lead and instead add a 1 cu. ft. water bag to > get the same 64 lbs. of ballast. That's assuming you're totally swamped, of course; but if your boat is packed well with air bags taking up most of the spare space that won't happen. More likely is that you're talking about a situation where you have water and air (in the form of a partially inflated bag) or water and lead filling an area. Given a hypothetical kayak of 10 ft^3 volume, we could get 64 lbs of ballast from 0.133 ft^3 of water or .012 ft^3 of lead. Assuming the rest of the space is air filled, the boat has the same displacement in either case, but a greater resistance to heeling with the lead. -- Michael Edelman http://www.mich.com/~mje Telescope guide: http://www.mich.com/~mje/scope.html Folding Kayaks: http://www.mich.com/~mje/kayak.html Airguns: http://www.mich.com/~mje/airguns.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Can somebody please remind why there is so much interest in ballast? If this is for improving stability, then I consider adding ballast an inferior approach. The best possible way to improve stability in your boat is to improve your technique and your fit in the boat. For the latter, there is a great article in the recent Feb issue of Sea Kayaker, for the former, I can recommend several ways to improve your balance and edging skills, from simple exercises to do while paddling, to a full-blown river kayaking course. I really hope that nobody is considering ballast as a substitute for paddling skill. There is no better stability aid in a kayak than your own body!!!!! (except sponsons of course, which are obviously not subject to the law of gravity.) Kevin /--------------------------------------------\ /---------------------------\ |Something there is that doesn't love a wall | Kevin Whilden | |That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it | kwhilden_at_u.washington.edu | |And spills the upper boulders in the sun | Dept. of Geologic Science | |And makes gaps that even two can pass abreast| University of Washington | | -- Robert Frost |(206)543-1975(w) 632-5140(h)| \--------------------------------------------/ \---------------------------/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
On Fri, 13 Feb 1998, K. Whilden wrote: > Can somebody please remind why there is so much interest in ballast? The interest started from adjusting trim. My comments have been as "support" since the two boats I've paddled with ballast had it added as support. Both boats were roughly 19' with a 17" beam skin frame replicas. I completely agree that skills are preferable to ballast. kirk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
> From: "K. Whilden" <kwhilden_at_u.washington.edu> > Can somebody please remind why there is so much interest in ballast? > > If this is for improving stability, then I consider adding ballast an > inferior approach. The best possible way to improve stability in your boat > is to improve your technique and your fit in the boat. For the latter, > there is a great article in the recent Feb issue of Sea Kayaker, for the > former, I can recommend several ways to improve your balance and edging > skills, from simple exercises to do while paddling, to a full-blown river > kayaking course. > > I really hope that nobody is considering ballast as a substitute for > paddling skill. There is no better stability aid in a kayak than your own > body!!!!! (except sponsons of course, which are obviously not subject to > the law of gravity.) Kevin, If you consider sponsons a better stability aid than your own body, why is this better than using ballast? Wouldn't this too, fall in the category of not developing adequate skills according to your logic? I don't understand the difference. Have you paddled the Khatsalano (unsponsoned version)? There are some touring boats that are much better paddled when they are loaded. Would you consider that "extra comfort in paddling" a substitute for good skills? And when I don't add some type of ballast to my boat when I have my co-captain (see http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/poochyak.html ), she can make the event turn into quite a workout. Actually, she's great for practicing bracing :-) I can paddle the boat with her on deck while not carrying ballast, but I just can't take pictures. Especially when a pelican lands nearby. Jackie http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/ _ _ _ _ _ \\ / \0/ \ / \0/ \ \\ " " arf arf! `\ ,sSSs,\, )\w/( ,sSS..)/{) <<..> sSSS_v)/ \ )<*> sSS[(\_]___\ <(_/_o_o_ 'sS[_`-+---+) \----+-------+-------'---`-----\-------------') ~~~~~~~ ~~jf ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~\~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~ \ _L, \\ ~~~ ~~~ ~ ~~~~ ~~ ~ ~~~~~ ~ ~ |a ) ~~ ~~ \\ ~ ~~~~ ~ ~~ /'T|| ` ~~ ~ ~ /__)/(____W ~~ ~~ ~ ~~~ ~ ( \ } / ~~ ~ ~~~ ~ ~~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~ ~~~ ~~~~~ o o o o (\ o o >jf:-) o o (/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Jackie, The comment regarding sponsons is a joke referring to Mr. Unmentionable's penchant for raping the laws of physics and logic in his defense. I do not advocate any device as a substitute for skill, but rather I believe devices should be a supplement to skill. Also, I do not expect all sea kayakers to become class IV whitewater paddlers, but I do wish that sea kayakers would consciously seek to improve skills whenever possible. There are lots of simple little drills that can be done while paddling to improve technique without undue effort. My personal favorite is paddling with the boat on edge for an extended time (1-5 minutes). This does wonders for edging and hip snap strength, as well as directional control because boats turn easier when leaned. I can believe that pooch_yakkin' does wonders for bracing skills. If you want to increase the level of challenge, you might consider upgrading to a St. Bernard. :) Kevin On Fri, 13 Feb 1998, Jackie Fenton wrote: > > > From: "K. Whilden" <kwhilden_at_u.washington.edu> > > > I really hope that nobody is considering ballast as a substitute for > > paddling skill. There is no better stability aid in a kayak than your own > > body!!!!! (except sponsons of course, which are obviously not subject to > > the law of gravity.) > > > Kevin, > > If you consider sponsons a better stability aid than your own body, > why is this better than using ballast? Wouldn't this too, fall > in the category of not developing adequate skills according to your > logic? I don't understand the difference. > > Have you paddled the Khatsalano (unsponsoned version)? > > There are some touring boats that are much better paddled when they are > loaded. Would you consider that "extra comfort in paddling" a substitute > for good skills? And when I don't add some type of ballast to my boat when > I have my co-captain (see http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/poochyak.html ), she > can make the event turn into quite a workout. Actually, she's great for > practicing bracing :-) I can paddle the boat with her on deck while not > carrying ballast, but I just can't take pictures. Especially when a > pelican lands nearby. > > > Jackie > http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/ > > _ _ _ > _ _ \\ / \0/ \ > / \0/ \ \\ " > " arf arf! `\ > ,sSSs,\, > )\w/( ,sSS..)/{) > <<..> sSSS_v)/ \ > )<*> sSS[(\_]___\ > <(_/_o_o_ 'sS[_`-+---+) > \----+-------+-------'---`-----\-------------') > ~~~~~~~ ~~jf ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~\~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ > ~ \ > _L, \\ ~~~ ~~~ ~ > ~~~~ ~~ ~ ~~~~~ ~ ~ |a ) ~~ ~~ \\ ~ ~~~~ ~ ~~ > /'T|| ` > ~~ ~ ~ /__)/(____W > ~~ ~~ ~ ~~~ ~ ( \ } / ~~ ~ ~~~ ~ ~~~ > ~~ ~~ ~~ ~ ~~~ ~~~~~ > o o o o > (\ o > o >jf:-) o o > (/ > > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > *************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Hi Kevin, > From: "K. Whilden" <kwhilden_at_u.washington.edu> > The comment regarding sponsons is a joke referring to Mr. Unmentionable's > penchant for raping the laws of physics and logic in his defense. I do > not advocate any device as a substitute for skill, but rather I believe > devices should be a supplement to skill. I think ballast fall into this category... a supplement. Sort of like rudders (uh oh, she's brought up THAt subject!). Sometimes rudders are useful depending on the boat, and sometimes, beginners use them for steering rather than develop the appropriate skills. btw, you can say "Mr. Unmentionable's" name on this list. It's safe :-) (looks both ways) > Also, I do not expect all sea > kayakers to become class IV whitewater paddlers, but I do wish that sea > kayakers would consciously seek to improve skills whenever possible. Agreed. Many do, but there seems to be an awful lot of rescues of sea kayakers without appropriate skills from that recent coastguard report (such as those who could not even re-enter their boats). > There > are lots of simple little drills that can be done while paddling to > improve technique without undue effort. My personal favorite is paddling > with the boat on edge for an extended time (1-5 minutes). This does > wonders for edging and hip snap strength, as well as directional control > because boats turn easier when leaned. I think paddling parallel to the beach in surf (not big stuff) is good for developing bracing skills (besides being fun). > I can believe that pooch_yakkin' does wonders for bracing skills. If you > want to increase the level of challenge, you might consider upgrading to > a St. Bernard. :) __ (_( )_ ( _ ( ) _ _ (__ (_ _ __ ) / \O/ \ _ _ " / \O/ \ " __ __ ///\www/\\\ ////|\\\\ ____ /// Y \\\ ____ (____>======(((/-\)))======<____) //"\\ _ ///|\\\ _ _ __/ ||\///"\\\/|| \\ _________________( /",o______\\\\||"||////__________ \\ .' (`y _(_at___~_ v') "" "" "" "" `. ~~~"'~ ~~ ~~~~~~~~~ \\~/[|||||]\~//~~~ ~~ ~~~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~ ~ `~~~~ ~~~ ~ ~~~~ ~ ~~~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~ ~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~ ~~ ~ ~~ ~~~~ \__ ~~ ~~~~ ~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~ o."\ ) ~~~ ~~ > _at_)) ~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~ ) /_ ~~ ~~~~~ ~ ~ ~~~ ~~ ~ ~~~ ~ ~ ["/ ] ] ~~ ~ ~~ ~ ___[/ /__] ~~ ~ ~ ~~ \------------------------(_at_----'--`----------------------/ ~~~ ~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ ~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~ ~~ ~~~~~~~~ jf~ ~~ ~ ~ ~~~~~ ~~~ ~ ~ ~ ~~ ~~~~ "You ought'n to talk about open-water fetch when Tiny is along." Jackie http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
You are right in that improving your skills and getting used to rough conditions should compesate for stability, but there is a difference between sea kayaking and white water. In the river, if you get tired, you just pull out wherever is convenient. At sea, getting to a place to take a brake may take you more than half and hour, with the agravant that you have to deal with the surf zone when you are at the limit of exhaustion. For that reason, people who do transoceanic trips carry a good load of ballast. You need to be able to stay upright when your arms and torso refuse to move anymore and you are thinking "why did I do this?". Also ballast cures other problems, like excesive weathercocking. - Julio > > Can somebody please remind why there is so much interest in ballast? > > If this is for improving stability, then I consider adding ballast an > inferior approach. The best possible way to improve stability in your boat > is to improve your technique and your fit in the boat. For the latter, > there is a great article in the recent Feb issue of Sea Kayaker, for the > former, I can recommend several ways to improve your balance and edging > skills, from simple exercises to do while paddling, to a full-blown river > kayaking course. > > I really hope that nobody is considering ballast as a substitute for > paddling skill. There is no better stability aid in a kayak than your own > body!!!!! (except sponsons of course, which are obviously not subject to > the law of gravity.) > > Kevin > > /--------------------------------------------\ /---------------------------\ > |Something there is that doesn't love a wall | Kevin Whilden | > |That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it | kwhilden_at_u.washington.edu | > |And spills the upper boulders in the sun | Dept. of Geologic Science | > |And makes gaps that even two can pass abreast| University of Washington | > | -- Robert Frost |(206)543-1975(w) 632-5140(h)| > \--------------------------------------------/ \---------------------------/ > > > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > *************************************************************************** > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
juliom_at_cisco.com wrote: > > You are right in that improving your skills and getting used > to rough conditions should compesate for stability, but there is > a difference between sea kayaking and white water. Actually several differences, but they do complement each other. > In the river, if you get tired, you just pull out wherever is > convenient. At sea, getting to a place to take a brake may take > you more than half and hour, with the agravant that you have > to deal with the surf zone when you are at the limit of exhaustion. There are other ways. One problem I had with Tim's sponson push is his failure to advocate a complete system. The really useful item to have at sea (which Tim also sells) is a sea anchor. A properly sized and rigged sea anchor will keep you bow into the wind, and nearly stationary on the water. Even a kayak that is only moderately stable will be easy to keep upright in this position and you can improve your stability by sliding down into your cockpit, this lowers your center of gravity, and reduces you exposure to the elements. You can add sponsons if you like (or need them) and even get some sleep. > For that reason, people who do transoceanic trips carry a good load > of ballast. You need to be able to stay upright when your arms > and torso refuse to move anymore and you are thinking "why did I do this?". The gear I would be carrying for a ocean crossing is more than enough ballast. :-) > Also ballast cures other problems, like excesive weathercocking. If the boat is shapped right and the ballast is in the right place. > > Can somebody please remind why there is so much interest in ballast? To get a large boat that can be used for expiditions to sit down on her lines properly so that a smaller paddler with little gear can paddle comfortably. Every boat has one condition of load (total displacement) that is optimum for handling and performance (this does change some with conditions), it is part of the paddler's skill to know what this is and to load the boat to as nearly the optimum condition as possible for any given conditions. > > If this is for improving stability, then I consider adding ballast an > > inferior approach. Stability is only a small part of the puzzle. > > I really hope that nobody is considering ballast as a substitute for > > paddling skill. There is no better stability aid in a kayak than your own > > body!!!!! (except sponsons of course, which are obviously not subject to > > the law of gravity.) I met a lady like that once. :-))) michael *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
[My apologies. I mis-posted this to the *other* list. Dave K.] M. Neverdosky wrote: > Jackie Fenton wrote: > > Agreed. Many do, but there seems to be an awful lot of rescues of > > sea kayakers without appropriate skills from that recent coastguard report > > (such as those who could not even re-enter their boats). > > Perhaps, but for comparison, how many times does the coast guard have to rescue > commercial fishermen? I hear of very large numbers of fishermen dieing at sea > but rarely hear any outrage or push for real prevention. Michael, I think your comments here are out of line. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the regulations (and conditions) under which commercial fishers work. Three points, and my *bottom line* at the end: 1. USCG regulations govern the certification and equipping of commercial fishing vessels (CFV's). Aside from having to pass inspections for seaworthiness, these vessels are required to have survival suits and other safety gear aboard way beyond what a sea kayaker could carry. Where I live, most CFV's are well-cared-for boats, and the crews are very serious about maintaining their survival capability in the event of a capsize. In the 50 F (or colder) water we have, an unprepared person, even wearing a PFD, will survive for about an hour, generally not long enough for the USCG to locate any survivors of a capsize or sinking, despite EPIRB's and other mandatory safety gear. It's a pretty serious game. Sea kayakers are not subject to comparable USCG scrutiny. The inspection and gear requirements on CFV's are practical, reasonable ways of enhancing survivability. It's hard to imagine improvements which would substantially increase survivability short of a massive investment in some sort of escape pod. (And, most sinkings would not allow fishers to enter the pod, anyway.) 2. Around here, the main causes of a sinking or capsize are NOT a failure of judgement or safety equipment for CFV crews. The main cause is Ma Nature, who can make it very nasty out on the water. Extremely hazardous sea conditions can come up very quickly (and are not always reliably predicted by the Weather Service), requiring sound skippering skills, and, yes, some luck, to survive. In addition, CFV's must FISH to earn a living, mandating they go out to retrieve crab pots or run drag nets in marginal conditions. The harsh reality of earning a living fishing is that fishers sometimes wager their lives to earn a living. This seems like a very different dynamic than what drives sea kayakers to their recreation. 3. Finally, I suspect the accident RATE for commercial fishers (number of fatalities or capsizes per trip) is very much lower than the accident RATE for sea kayakers. We hear of more rescues of CFV's than kayaks because CFV's, in toto, have many more trips per year, and have a greater TOTAL risk. Maybe it will help you to empathize with those who risk their lives to feed us to know that a typical CFV pays much more in fees each year to support rescue services than a sea kayak does. > I do not like to hear of deaths of kayakers, especially those that could have > been easily prevented by a little training and practice, but I often think > the danger is shown out of proportion. Has anybody looked at the death and > injury rate for High School football? I'm having difficulty with this comparison, also, Michael, because when an unfortunate high school kid becomes a paraplegic through suffering a neck injury, the main sufferer is the kid. In addition, there is no costly, tax-payer-funded search to find him to provide assistance. He's usually somewhere in or on a 50 x 100 yard grid, surrounded by lots of observers, with an ambulance standing by. In comparison, when a sea kayaker becomes "lost," there is often triggered a very expensive search just to locate him/her or his/her craft. My Bottom Line: If we tolerate a high level of incompetence in our paddling partners, we invite the wrath of the public, who funds our survival when we capsize or are lost at sea. It seems the public has a reasonable right to expect us to minimize our chances of demanding a rescue, and when we need one, to have prepared ourselves so that the cost of the rescue is minimized. To act otherwise is to invite regulation of our access to the sea. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR sea kayaker -- and resident of a commercial fishing community *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Kenneth Cooperstein wrote: > As to Craig Olson's assertion that wood and water ballast *will* affect > boat buoyancy, we are talking about different things. I am concerned > about buoyancy when swamped. If you add lead ballast to your kayak and > it fills with water, it could sink, whereas before the lead was added it > might float -- unless you provided additional floatation. If you add > water or wood ballast, then you don't have to increase floatation > because both are neutral or buoyant in a swamped boat. Hmmmm. Are you really saying that you do not have 50 lbs. or so of extra buoyancy on board at all times, even when swamped? If so, it would seem clear that your boat is not equipped with secure flotation at both ends. Having water-tight bulkheads & hatches is not enough to qualify as "secure" flotation, as hatches & bulkheads can leak and hulls can be broken. When fully loaded, the dry bags within the front & rear cargo areas provide ample flotation for you & your gear. When empty, use inflated drybags in the cargo areas to achieve the same purpose. For boats without bulkheads, the dry bags must be tied into the boat to prevent them from coming out in a capsize or swamped situation. > For example, if you added 64 lbs of lead to a boat, you would need to > add a 1 cu. ft. air bag to float that lead it if you swamped. See above. If you don't have an extra 64 lbs. of secured buoyancy, then your boat is not properly outfitted and could be in trouble if you get swamped. You might want to consider using sponsons - since we all know they're not affected by gravity. :-) Craig Olson Bellingham, Washington *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Kenneth wrote; (SNIP) > > > For example, if you added 64 lbs of lead to a boat, you would need to > add a 1 cu. ft. air bag to float that lead it if you swamped. It is > just simpler to forget the lead and instead add a 1 cu. ft. water bag to > get the same 64 lbs. of ballast. Lead weighs aprox. 700 lbs. per cubic foot. Thus 64 pounds of lead will only take up 157 cu. inches of space. Since this can be mounted much lower in the boat and centralized fore and aft much less of it can be used to achieve the desired increase in stability or change in trim. A simple calculation of the moments involved will show that 50 pounds of lead mounted on the bottom of a kayak will almost make it self righting. If faired into the hull it will have no noticeable effect on hull resistance. Kevin wrote; >If this is for improving stability, then I consider adding ballast an >inferior approach. The best possible way to improve stability in your boat >is to improve your technique and your fit in the boat. For the latter, >there is a great article in the recent Feb issue of Sea Kayaker, for the >former, I can recommend several ways to improve your balance and edging >skills, from simple exercises to do while paddling, to a full-blown river >kayaking course. This is true for those activities where one is always alert. However, if one is sleeping in the boat or there is a prospect of being at sea for extended periods of time in which one must rest, ballast can provide the required stability and it is safer than increasing the form stability. Also, we have heard from handicapped paddlers who might not have the ability to roll. In this case added stability that actually prevents capsize may be a requirement. For most paddling stores and gear in a boat are a form of ballast that can enhance stability. They can be stored in such a manner as to improve handling and make paddling much less stressful when the weather gets threatening. The obvious problem with stores is that they are consumable and stability suffers with time (unless you have a holding tank aboard). :-) If you are carrying water anyway then it is important to store it as low as possible and outboard to reduce rolling. The containers should be collapsible so the water will not slosh. Of course, the containers should be fastened tightly enough to prevent movement. We used the cheap folding 2 gal. jugs in Labrador. They worked but I never really trusted them and covered mine with duct tape to prevent wearing holes in it. Returning to the origin of this thread, adding ballast specifically to adjust the trim of a boat may not be the most efficient way to do the job but it does work. A sliding seat is much more effective plus it provides flexibility to adjust for less than perfect gear packing. I have used ballast myself on sprint kayaks. We build the boats ten lb. under weight and then shift the lead blocks around to get the best trim. We don't move the paddler because the seats are rather tightly fitted into the best paddling position for control and stroke efficiency. The important thing to recognize through any of these discussions is that circumstances alter needs. One can alter stability in several ways and each method has its virtues and vices. The wise paddler and boat designer will recognize this and use each method in the appropriate manner. To arbitrarily adopt one over the others is to invite problems. Cheers John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
At 08:50 AM 2/14/98 -0500, John Winters wrote: >Kenneth wrote; >Lead weighs aprox. 700 lbs. per cubic foot. Thus 64 pounds of lead will >only take up 157 cu. inches of space. Since this can be mounted much lower >in the boat and centralized fore and aft much less of it can be used to >achieve the desired increase in stability or change in trim. A simple >calculation of the moments involved will show that 50 pounds of lead >mounted on the bottom of a kayak will almost make it self righting. If >faired into the hull it will have no noticeable effect on hull resistance. > >The important thing to recognize through any of these discussions is that >circumstances alter needs. One can alter stability in several ways and each >method has its virtues and vices. The wise paddler and boat designer will >recognize this and use each method in the appropriate manner. To >arbitrarily adopt one over the others is to invite problems. > > >Cheers >John Winters My 2 cents worth Most of the time I see people in kayaks that are to big for them, 150lb person in a sealution,100 lb paddler in a sealion, and so on. I it rare to see a person in a kayak to small , 200lb in a picalo. Most kayak manufacturers will say that a kayak with a ____ paddler and ___ amount of gear will be at the right trim the kayak was designed for. Most people buy a kayak to camp in and only camp 10-20 % of the time. My opinion is they should buy a kayak for what they use it for 80-90% of the time , day paddles , and suffer when they camp or buy a second kayak for that purpose. A lot of the kayaks out there seem to be made for a expedition and not day paddling. So eat more to trim your kayak and forget the ballast because you will be the ballast. Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
> From: dldecker_at_mediaone.net > paddling. So eat more to trim your kayak and forget the ballast because you > will be the ballast. Hey, built-in floatation and hypothermia prevention! :-) Jackie http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/ \ / | \ / \ | / __ ___ / __( ( )_ _( )___ \ | / _( ( ) __ __ _ _( )__ _( _( ) ______ ( ) ( ( )_ __ ( ( )__ __( ( ) ________ __ _( ______( ) _( ( ) ___ ___ _ __ (___ _ ___) ( ) __ ____ / | (_______ ( _ _ ) __ _ ___ | \ (_____ __ _(_ _ _ ) / \ / | \ _ _ / \O/ \ / \ _L, |a ) /'T|| /__)/ \ | \ \_ \_\_\/ | `,' .<<^> `,' .' |`. o _0.~. / | \ / ) s'"( )-/ | `--""---i { ~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~ss~~~~~~/ .~~~~~ ~~ ~`~~~~~~~~`~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~~ ~ ~ ~ ~~ ~~~~ ~ / /~~ ~ ~~ ~ ~~~ ~~ ~~~ ~ ~ ~~~ ~ _/__/ ~ /y ) ~~ ~ ~~~ ~~~(\~ ~~ ~~~ 'UUU' ~~ ~~~~ ~~ ~ ~ ~ ~~ >jf:-) ~ (/ ~~~~ ~ ~~ ~ ~ ~~~ ~ ~~~ ~ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
"The following subject branched from Cockpit Modification Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 16:18:44 -0500 From: "TomTotem..." Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Custom Cockpit update [lead shot?]" Another way of doing it would be adding a sealed lead-acid battery, as that is very easy to strap to the bottom of your kayak, especially so if you have a folder. An added bonus is that if the battery is in working order it can also be used as a power-source for your electric bilge pump! Tord, who recently learned the value of an electric bilge pump (which I then hadn't!). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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