Any thoughts on rescuing a paddling partner that has become incapacitated, maybe through a badly disclocated/broken shoulder/neck, maybe unconscious from stroke, heart attack or some other problem. Maybe in calm waters, maybe rough. If I can't get them back in their boat, I think I'd try to rig a harness around my waist and through each shoulder strap of their PFD and tow them to shore or an island where normal first aid, etc. could be done. I think my rudder, up or down, would be a problem in trying to get them partway up on my after deck to get them partially out of the water. I think I'd try to keep them as close to my stern as possible to help keep water out of their face. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 09:26 AM 6/15/98 -0400, you wrote: >Any thoughts on rescuing a paddling partner that has become >incapacitated, maybe through a badly disclocated/broken shoulder/neck, >maybe unconscious from stroke, heart attack or some other problem. >Maybe in calm waters, maybe rough. > >If I can't get them back in their boat, I think I'd try to rig a harness >around my waist and through each shoulder strap of their PFD and tow >them to shore or an island where normal first aid, etc. could be done. I've got images of the cowboy riding into town with the "dead guy" draped over the rear of the horse. . . I wonder about getting the person over the front deck or your own boat, towing the second boat. . . ______________________________ George Bergeron, Secretary '99 Oswego Heritage Council www.europa.com/~heritage/" *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
This is the kind of situation where having a VHF radio and being in range of someone to call for help is very helpfull. Stroke, heart attack, broken parts are all medical emergencies that warrant calling for the fastest rescue possible. You are probably best stableizing the victim as best you can and waiting for the rescue, once you have made the call and know they are on the way. If there is no way to call for rescue, try whateve seems best at the time and understand that the results may not be favorable, i.e. somebody may die. michael heritage_at_europa.com wrote: > > At 09:26 AM 6/15/98 -0400, you wrote: > >Any thoughts on rescuing a paddling partner that has become > >incapacitated, maybe through a badly disclocated/broken shoulder/neck, > >maybe unconscious from stroke, heart attack or some other problem. > >Maybe in calm waters, maybe rough. > > > >If I can't get them back in their boat, I think I'd try to rig a harness > >around my waist and through each shoulder strap of their PFD and tow > >them to shore or an island where normal first aid, etc. could be done. > > I've got images of the cowboy riding into town with the "dead guy" draped > over the rear of the horse. . . I wonder about getting the person over the > front deck or your own boat, towing the second boat. . . *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Wow! You had to get there! That is a biiiiiig subject, worth hundreds of juicy e-mail discussions. Every case is different, there is not such thing as a one solution that is good for all. For instance, If the victim's heart stops, then you do not want to waste time to start CPR. You need to get side to side with the victim's boat, get his/her neck on you deck, and start doing CPR immediately. Someone else should be towing you and the victim together. The following is a copy of a table that appears on a National Safety Council first aid handbook. Chances of Survival rate ------------------------------------------------ Time Until Advanced Cardiac Life Support Begins <8min 8-16min >16min Time Until <4min 43% 19% 10% Basic Life 4-8min 27% 19% 6% Support >8min N/A 7% 0% That should give you an idea of how important is to start CPR ASAP. For other less life threatening cases, every rescue depends on how many people are available to assist, and the availability of rescue aid equipment such as tow ropes, floats, etc. Your best bet is to have on paddler put his/her kayak side to side with the victim's boat, and have that person hold and assist the victim while other strong paddlers tow both boats together. If the victim's soul is no longer in this mortal world, then towing the victim or carrying the body on the deck depends on the weather conditions, the victim's weight, and the stability of your boat. I wish you never to be involved in a situation like that, it is very traumatic. - Julio > > Any thoughts on rescuing a paddling partner that has become > incapacitated, maybe through a badly disclocated/broken shoulder/neck, > maybe unconscious from stroke, heart attack or some other problem. > Maybe in calm waters, maybe rough. > > If I can't get them back in their boat, I think I'd try to rig a harness > around my waist and through each shoulder strap of their PFD and tow > them to shore or an island where normal first aid, etc. could be done. > I think my rudder, up or down, would be a problem in trying to get them > partway up on my after deck to get them partially out of the water. I > think I'd try to keep them as close to my stern as possible to help keep > water out of their face. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 09:26:12AM -0400, Sisler, Clyde wrote: > Any thoughts on rescuing a paddling partner that has become > incapacitated, maybe through a badly disclocated/broken shoulder/neck, > maybe unconscious from stroke, heart attack or some other problem. > Maybe in calm waters, maybe rough. Having towed people (conscious) in whitewater situations, my comment is that it's amazingly hard. Try it sometime: have somebody hold onto your stern and try paddling a hundred yards. It gets *real* interesting when you're trying to do this in class IV whitewater *and* they're scared *and* they're holding onto their boat with their other hand. I have, fortunately, never had to deal with an unconscious victim, but my general impression is that it's usually time to go swimming, in order to get their face out of the water and possibly start CPR while they're still in the water. I would be *extremely* hesitant to fasten myself or my boat to them into any kind of river situation except for flatwater: there's all kinds of potential for bad things to happen that will exacerbate the situtation. Of course, deliberately going swimming in a major rapid is not necessarily the right thing to do either. It's very risky and could easily increment the victim count by one. But in some situations, it may be the right thing to do. Even thought much of it applies to whitewater situations, and a lot of you aren't river paddlers, I'd really recommend that everyone get a copy of "River Rescue", Bechdel & Ray's book, which is now in its third edition. There's a lot of useful content in there for everybody who boats, including material on group tactics for rescue. ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk_at_gsp.org *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
This brings up an interesting sidebar issue: it's really important when paddling with people we don't know well to have a pretty clear idea of any potential medical problems that other paddlers could encounter. (I was paddling a "double-cross" of the Chesapeake Bay with some friends and another paddler asked to join in --- and, during our conversation, the subject turned to heart conditions --- which he had. Now, this isn't the middle of the Gulf of Mexico or anything, but we're still about two miles from nearest landfall, and any medical emergency certainly has the potential for turning into one of Clyde's "worst case" scenarios. So, the question is, how does one ask --- in a politically correct manner, of course --- a paddler who wants to join a group if he/she has any medical conditions which could be encountered during a trip? Ideas? Jack "Joq" Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 14:27 6/15/98 EDT, you wrote: > >This brings up an interesting sidebar issue: it's really important when >paddling with people we don't know well to have a pretty clear idea of any >potential medical problems that other paddlers could encounter. (I was >paddling a "double-cross" of the Chesapeake Bay with some friends and another >paddler asked to join in --- and, during our conversation, the subject turned >to heart conditions --- which he had. Now, this isn't the middle of the Gulf >of Mexico or anything, but we're still about two miles from nearest landfall, >and any medical emergency certainly has the potential for turning into one of >Clyde's "worst case" scenarios. So, the question is, how does one ask --- in >a politically correct manner, of course --- a paddler who wants to join a >group if he/she has any medical conditions which could be encountered during a >trip? > >Ideas? > >Jack "Joq" Martin > before the start of any trip, i always ask: "does anyone have a medical condition i should be aware of?" i also give them the opportunity to tell me, privately, if this is the case ... it's a big deal in the middle of nowhere, where i tend to paddle as much as possible!! ;-) it is important to know as a trip coordinator. i have a potentially severe medical problem, and do share it with trip coordinators as well. luckily, this has never been an issue for me on any trip i've lead. [and now i am knocking on wood!!] mark #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com-------------------------------------- mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/paddler [index of Paddling websites I manage] Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page #-Fortune: Don't look back, the lemmings are gaining on you. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
It's an interesting issue, one that I have several points of view on. When functioning as the trip "leader" of a group that consists of friends and strangers I like to get everyone together briefly to talk about the trip route, group cohesiveness, etc - one of the etc's is usually just thrown out as, "does anyone have any health issues that we should know about in case something happens while we're out, diabetes, bee-sting allergies, etc?". I feel that possibly offending someone is much better than losing them. Maybe this is harsh, but then again - so is dying. I think that posing the question to the group rather than to an individual lessens the possibility of "offense". As a group "participant" I think it is in my best interest to make sure that any medical conditions are known to the group - ie. I have the greatest interest in my health and the continuation of the same so all I can do is help my case if someone else responsible is aware of any issues. I had problems with seizures related to a motorcycle accident for about ten years and learned very quickly how to explain the issue and how to handle it, to any new group or individuals that I was doing things with. The toughest case is probably the situation that you've described here, Jack. A group of paddling buddies who all know each other and paddle together informally and a new paddler joining in for the first time. It's very difficult to approach this without putting the person "on the spot". Don't have a good solution, and for me this situation is probably the most common scenario. Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska > -----Original Message----- > From: JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com [SMTP:JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com] > Sent: Monday, June 15, 1998 10:28 AM > To: PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Incapacitated partner > > This brings up an interesting sidebar issue: it's really important > when > paddling with people we don't know well to have a pretty clear idea of > any > potential medical problems that other paddlers could encounter. (I > was > paddling a "double-cross" of the Chesapeake Bay with some friends and > another > paddler asked to join in --- and, during our conversation, the subject > turned > to heart conditions --- which he had. Now, this isn't the middle of > the Gulf > of Mexico or anything, but we're still about two miles from nearest > landfall, > and any medical emergency certainly has the potential for turning into > one of > Clyde's "worst case" scenarios. So, the question is, how does one ask > --- in > a politically correct manner, of course --- a paddler who wants to > join a > group if he/she has any medical conditions which could be encountered > during a > trip? > > Ideas? > > Jack "Joq" Martin > ********************************************************************** > ***** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > ********************************************************************** > ***** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> >If I can't get them back in their boat, I think I'd try to rig a > harness > >around my waist and through each shoulder strap of their PFD and tow > >them to shore or an island where normal first aid, etc. could be > done. > > I've got images of the cowboy riding into town with the "dead > guy" draped > Yup! Seems like an apt image. Probably wouldn't hang down quite so far tho :-). > over the rear of the horse. . . I wonder about getting the person over > the > front deck or your own boat, towing the second boat. . . > Ok, assuming you're stable enough, how are you going to get an unconscious bod up on the fore deck? That's all dead weight (no pun intended). Maybe, instead of trying to hoist them up head first, try to get their feet/legs accross the deck as far as possbile (as fast as possible) then maybe lean the 'yak as far as you can in the opposite direction to kind of work the butt up on the deck, then muscle the torso and head up. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
context: sea kayaking After a brief illustration by Ken Fink at one point during a class I finally realized why they say 3 kayakers are a lot better than 2. The message I received was that it is nearly impossible for a single person to bring in a person who cannot get back into their boat and be stable enough to be towed. End of sentence. Apparently it is an instructors' nightmare, they talk about around the campfire -- what to do if you're out alone and something happens to a client, and there are just the two of you. With a second person you can most likely get someone back in their boat, and then that person can stabilize them and you can tow the pair. As you see, more and more people make this a lot easier. But it didn't sound very easy to me in any case. Especially in cold water where you can't be leaving someone in the water for long. jennifer *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Then there's poor old Dave P. Should'a seen the expression on his face after we fished him up from a whirlpool -- his upper body was imobilized and he tipped over while being towed. There is a lot to be said for the more the merrier when rafting up and towing a victim. Richard Culpeper *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 98-06-15 15:32:24 EDT, David_at_wainet.com writes: << The toughest case is probably the situation that you've described here, Jack. A group of paddling buddies who all know each other and paddle together informally and a new paddler joining in for the first time. It's very difficult to approach this without putting the person "on the spot". Don't have a good solution, and for me this situation is probably the most common scenario. >> Dave caught what I <meant> and Mark hit the issue of trip leaders' responsibilities very well. Certainly, as a leader/coordinator, I would also always ask folks for medical data, and the idea of private feedback is excellent. (And I would always want folks I was paddling with to know that I have a severe allergy to penicillin, so that point's well taken, too.) But the question I was trying to ask centers on a pick-up paddle with someone I don't know --- and on whether to or how to ask if there are medical issues when it's just two people out paddling for an afternoon? Still dunno! Still wondering on that point. Jack *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Whoops! I do this all the time - I sent this response to Clyde and not the list! I agree with all your points Clyde, when I used to lead "organized" trips under the aegis of the National Audubon Society I was definitely "liable" if I didn't have this info in writing. Most of the leading that I do nowadays is in a (much)less formal structure. The Association sign-up precluded (as I recall) any liability of the Association or its members (have no idea how this would have stood up in court). Paddling in "pick-up" groups in class II-III whitewater was very informal, but paddlers did tend to ask more ability/capability questions than I usually encounter from sea-kayakers. I haven't joined a paddling club since moving up here last September so any group paddling that I've been doing has been very informal. Forcing the discussion one on one isn't usually a problem for me(I like to talk<g>) - the real issue is making sure that the _group_ knows about an issue revealed privately (this is in an environment without a designated group leader). As I re-read your reply again I just saw what might be a key phrase - "...have a medical situation we should be aware of?' " the key being the _we_ as opposed to making it more personal by saying "I". Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska -----Original Message----- From: Sisler, Clyde [SMTP:Clyde.Sisler_at_wang.com] Sent: Monday, June 15, 1998 11:54 AM To: David Seng Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Incapacitated partner > bee-sting allergies, etc?". I feel that possibly offending someone is > much better than losing them. Maybe this is harsh, but then again - > so > is dying. I think that posing the question to the group rather than > to > an individual lessens the possibility of "offense". > IMO, you'd be remiss (and possibly liable?) as the leader of an organized trip if you didn't make an effort to find out. The thing is many 'healthy' people might not stop to think someone else might have a problem. I'd think this would be more likely to happen in smaller, less organized groups than in larger, more formal outings where group leadership responsibilites have been (hopefully) taught/learned. > As a group "participant" I think it is in my best interest to make > sure that any medical conditions are known to the group - ie. I have > the > I think so too. However, some people may be reluctant to volunteer that type of information for fear (rightly or wrongly) of being rejected from the trip or activity. > Jack. A group of paddling buddies who all know each other and paddle > together informally and a new paddler joining in for the first time. > It's very difficult to approach this without putting the person "on > the > spot". Don't have a good solution, and for me this situation is > probably the most common scenario. > IMO, probably the best approach is not to make an overly dramatic issue of it. Deliberately force a one on one, start talking about rescue and safety and then add an 'Oh, by the way, are you taking any medication or have a medical situation we should be aware of?' I would think the key would be one on one to minimize whatever embarassment there might be. > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 16:31 6/15/98 EDT, JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 98-06-15 15:32:24 EDT, David_at_wainet.com writes: > ><< The toughest case is probably the situation that you've described here, > Jack. A group of paddling buddies who all know each other and paddle > together informally and a new paddler joining in for the first time. > It's very difficult to approach this without putting the person "on the > spot". Don't have a good solution, and for me this situation is > probably the most common scenario. >> > >Dave caught what I <meant> and Mark hit the issue of trip leaders' >responsibilities very well. Certainly, as a leader/coordinator, I would also >always ask folks for medical data, and the idea of private feedback is >excellent. (And I would always want folks I was paddling with to know that I >have a severe allergy to penicillin, so that point's well taken, too.) But >the question I was trying to ask centers on a pick-up paddle with someone I >don't know --- and on whether to or how to ask if there are medical issues >when it's just two people out paddling for an afternoon? Still dunno! >Still wondering on that point. > >Jack > same thing holds joq, especially if you have something to share, i can say "i have RA, and take steroids, if an accident happens, tell whomever i am a steroid dependent" ... if that doesn't open up the other paddler ... well, then you're paddling with someone who isn't very responsible... i've found the most common thing i run into is diabetes... is that any better?? i have certainly run pick up trips, where i didn't know the other paddler, a story in itself, but we had a great time... good luck, mark #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com-------------------------------------- mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/paddler [index of Paddling websites I manage] Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page #-Fortune: Don't look back, the lemmings are gaining on you. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 03:31 PM 6/15/98 -0400, Sisler, Clyde wrote: >> >If I can't get them back in their boat, I think I'd try to rig a >> harness >> >around my waist and through each shoulder strap of their PFD and tow >> >them to shore or an island where normal first aid, etc. could be >> done. >> >> I've got images of the cowboy riding into town with the "dead >> guy" draped >> > Yup! Seems like an apt image. Probably wouldn't hang down >quite so far tho :-). > Clyde with a kayak being low in the water and a horse having legs what good would it do to throw someone over your deck of your kayak because if they weren't dead yet they would be sense there head would be under water not hanging down like a horse Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 98-06-15 17:09:51 EDT, canoeist_at_netbox.com writes: << same thing holds joq, especially if you have something to share, i can say "i have RA, and take steroids, if an accident happens, tell whomever i am a steroid dependent" ... if that doesn't open up the other paddler ... well, then you're paddling with someone who isn't very responsible... >> Yeah, that's good, Mark. A good way to lead into the conversation --- or maybe to <generate> it --- is to bring up the PCN issue. I like that --- thanks! Just seemed funny to find out my new paddling buddy had a heart condition when we were two miles out! Joq *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 17:28 6/15/98 EDT, JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com wrote: > >In a message dated 98-06-15 17:09:51 EDT, canoeist_at_netbox.com writes: > ><< same thing holds joq, especially if you have something to share, i can say > "i have RA, and take steroids, if an accident happens, tell whomever i am a > steroid dependent" ... if that doesn't open up the other paddler ... well, > then you're paddling with someone who isn't very responsible... >> > >Yeah, that's good, Mark. A good way to lead into the conversation --- or >maybe to <generate> it --- is to bring up the PCN issue. I like that --- >thanks! PCN?? i've no doubt missed something ;-) > >Just seemed funny to find out my new paddling buddy had a heart condition when >we were two miles out! you have a strange sense of humor!! ;^) > >Joq mark #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com-------------------------------------- mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/paddler [index of Paddling websites I manage] Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page #-Fortune: Don't look back, the lemmings are gaining on you. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 98-06-15 18:08:40 EDT, canoeist_at_netbox.com writes: << PCN?? i've no doubt missed something ;-) >> Sorry --- PCN is med-speak for penicillin. I just didn't want to have to look up the spelling again. Re the sense of humor --- yeah. I suppose. But I didn't mean it was funny --- I meant that I felt strange that I'd learn this guy's condition in mid- transit. He's fine, and there are no problems. Joq *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
The discussion about assisting incapacitated paddlers reminds me of my experience A few years back. Dr. Walter Klehr and Dr. Paul Tilsen and I were researching migration patterns of the Inuit in the Boothia peninsula region when Dr. Tilsen suddenly developed symptoms of a heart attack. Fortunately Dr. Klehr still retained some of his medical skills (he left medicine under a bit of a cloud having to do with some novel fertility treatments that he learned in Borneo) and immediately came to Dr. Tilsen's aid. There was a six foot sea running and the wind was shifting around to the north so we rafted up and Klehr performed what must surely be the only open heart surgery performed in sea kayaks at sea. It is truly remarkable what one can do with a properly sharpened Buck Lok Back knife. I, of course, take some credit for had I not had my usual supply of AB negative blood in my emergency kit I am sure the surgery would have failed. Once Dr. Klehr had closed we rigged Tilsen's boat with Cloudy Bay Sauvignon Blanc sponsons and took him in tow. We eventually landed in a protected cove where we made him as comfortable as possible. The story has a sad ending as it turned out that Tilsen had an allergy to latex and reacted unfavourably to the glove Klehr left in the body cavity while closing. I do not blame Dr. Klehr in any way as the light was fading and the conditions were not the best for surgery. It was an excusable mistake. Nevertheless, paddlers should keep this in mind and never take latex gloves on a sea kayaking trip. I also insist that all participants on my trips fill out a full medical report of any conditions real or imagined. It also wise to take a number of specialists along since one can never know what types of illnesses may pop up. GP's are really not up to snuff on modern surgical practices. Dr. Peregrine Inverbon, Ph.d., DD, LL.d, Ph.G Transcribed by his humble servant John Winters *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> >> >If I can't get them back in their boat, I think I'd try to rig a > >> harness > >> >around my waist and through each shoulder strap of their PFD and > tow > >> >them to shore or an island where normal first aid, etc. could be > >> done. > >> > >> I've got images of the cowboy riding into town with the "dead > >> guy" draped > >> > > Yup! Seems like an apt image. Probably wouldn't hang down > >quite so far tho :-). > > Clyde with a kayak being low in the water and a horse having legs what > good > would it do to throw someone over your deck of your kayak because if > they > weren't dead yet they would be sense there head would be under water > not > hanging down like a horse > I dunno. My thought was to try to tow the person in and someone (G.B.?) suggested getting them over the foredeck and I haven't heard any other suggestions. Seems to me you have to do somethng. You can't just leave them bobbing around out there, can you? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, Jun 16, 1998 at 09:00:54AM -0400, Sisler, Clyde wrote: > You can't just leave them bobbing around out there, can you? That depends on whether or not *they* have the car keys. ;-) ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk_at_gsp.org *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In "Palos Brundfard" (sp), a passenger is shown riding sitting behind the paddler, lashed to his waist. Perhaps a tow rope lashing the incapacitated partner to the rear deck would work for a haul to shore. Dana Dickson Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:00:54 -0400 From: "Sisler, Clyde" <Clyde.Sisler_at_wang.com> Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Incapacitated partner > >> >If I can't get them back in their boat, I think I'd try to rig a > >> harness > >> >around my waist and through each shoulder strap of their PFD and > tow > >> >them to shore or an island where normal first aid, etc. could be > >> done. > >> > >> I've got images of the cowboy riding into town with the "dead > >> guy" draped > >> > > Yup! Seems like an apt image. Probably wouldn't hang down > >quite so far tho :-). > > Clyde with a kayak being low in the water and a horse having legs what > good > would it do to throw someone over your deck of your kayak because if > they > weren't dead yet they would be sense there head would be under water > not > hanging down like a horse > I dunno. My thought was to try to tow the person in and someone (G.B.?) suggested getting them over the foredeck and I haven't heard any other suggestions. Seems to me you have to do somethng. You can't just leave them bobbing around out there, can you? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 09:00 AM 6/16/98 -0400, Sisler, Clyde wrote: >> >> >If I can't get them back in their boat, I think I'd try to rig a >> >> harness >> >> >around my waist and through each shoulder strap of their PFD and >> tow >> >> >them to shore or an island where normal first aid, etc. could be >> >> done. >> >> >> >> I've got images of the cowboy riding into town with the "dead >> >> guy" draped >> >> >> > Yup! Seems like an apt image. Probably wouldn't hang down >> >quite so far tho :-). >> >> Clyde with a kayak being low in the water and a horse having legs what >> good >> would it do to throw someone over your deck of your kayak because if >> they >> weren't dead yet they would be sense there head would be under water >> not >> hanging down like a horse >> > I dunno. My thought was to try to tow the person in and someone >(G.B.?) suggested getting them over the foredeck and I haven't heard any >other suggestions. Seems to me you have to do somethng. You can't just >leave them bobbing around out there, can you? > No you can't, leave them bobbing that is. Have you tried to paddle with some one laying on your deck? it ain't easy. In front it would probably be in your way of paddling, behind you would be hard to put some one with out help. I hope none of us have to find out. Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 98-06-16 09:02:55 EDT, Clyde.Sisler_at_wang.com writes: << My thought was to try to tow the person in and someone (G.B.?) suggested getting them over the foredeck and I haven't heard any other suggestions. Seems to me you have to do somethng. You can't just leave them bobbing around out there, can you? >> Some time ago Sea Kayaker Magazine had an article about the "scoop rescue". I can't seem to track down the issue, but it's for getting an incapacitated person back into their boat. The way it works is that you, the rescuer, with the victims boat along side your own, tilt the victims boat away from you filling it with water. You then reach over their boat and float the body into the cockpit and "scoop" them up. Once this has been accomplished you could proceed to pump the victims boat out. I would think that if each paddler were carrying a paddle float it would be a simple matter of sticking a paddle through the deck bunjies (the rear if you have them) with a paddle float on each end to prevent a capsize while you tow them home. I have practiced this rescue and it works, with some provisions. It helps to have long arms to reach over the victims boat and get the job done. Of course if there was another paddler available to help, all the better. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
The scoop rescue works reasonably well - I've actually used it in rough water to get a paddler into the boat that didn't have sufficient upper body strength to pull himself back into the boat. The main caveats I remember were: 1.) It's best if your boat and body weight are greater than the rescuee's - my boat was loaded with gear, so by locking my legs to the underside of my deck I had about 500 lbs of total weight - I was scooping a 250+lb kayaker 2)His boat was very unstable due to taking on so much water during the scoop - the hatches leaked. 3) It was better than towing him and his boat - I had already tried that. At 07:50 PM 6/16/98 EDT, KiAyker_at_aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 98-06-16 09:02:55 EDT, Clyde.Sisler_at_wang.com writes: > ><< My thought was to try to tow the person in and someone > (G.B.?) suggested getting them over the foredeck and I haven't heard any > other suggestions. Seems to me you have to do somethng. You can't just > leave them bobbing around out there, can you? >> > > > Some time ago Sea Kayaker Magazine had an article about the "scoop rescue". I >can't seem to track down the issue, but it's for getting an incapacitated >person back into their boat. The way it works is that you, the rescuer, with >the victims boat along side your own, tilt the victims boat away from you >filling it with water. You then reach over their boat and float the body into >the cockpit and "scoop" them up. > > Once this has been accomplished you could proceed to pump the victims boat >out. I would think that if each paddler were carrying a paddle float it would >be a simple matter of sticking a paddle through the deck bunjies (the rear if >you have them) with a paddle float on each end to prevent a capsize while you >tow them home. > > I have practiced this rescue and it works, with some provisions. It helps >to have long arms to reach over the victims boat and get the job done. Of >course if there was another paddler available to help, all the better. > >Scott >So.Cal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >*************************************************************************** > > Saul Kinderis saul_at_isomedia.com tel:(425)402-3426 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> Some time ago Sea Kayaker Magazine had an article about the "scoop > rescue". I > can't seem to track down the issue, but it's for getting an > incapacitated > person back into their boat. The way it works is that you, the > rescuer, with > the victims boat along side your own, tilt the victims boat away from > you > filling it with water. You then reach over their boat and float the > body into > the cockpit and "scoop" them up. > Good one! > Once this has been accomplished you could proceed to pump the > victims boat > out. I would think that if each paddler were carrying a paddle float > it would > be a simple matter of sticking a paddle through the deck bunjies (the > rear if > you have them) with a paddle float on each end to prevent a capsize > while you > tow them home. > Make the paddle & floats into an outrigger type thingee. That should help a great deal. However, I suspect an unconscious person is going to flop over to left or right side. The outrigger would probably keep the boat from capsizing again but the person's head and shoulders are probably going to flop into the water. I wonder if tying a line from the PFD shoulder to the paddle on each side would help. If they flop one way, the line on the opposite side might hold them back kinda upright. > ********************************************************************** > ***** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > ********************************************************************** > ***** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Clyde; If the victim is unconscious and you are by yourself you will have your hands full simply keeping them upright, never mind towing them. The idea of setting up bilateral pontoons and lashing the victim in an upright position is creative but I suspect it might be impossible on the water under anything other than ideal (and maybe not even then) conditions. It would be more beneficial to put them into their boat and then drape them over your front deck so that you can keep an eye on them and then signal for help. (Good time to have a radio.) Another method for getting them out of the water, other than stuffing them back into their boat, is to pull them up across theirs and your boat. Place the victim's boat between you and the vectim and, with the victim facing away from you, grab them by their PFD and pull/roll them, on their back, up over their boat and onto your front deck. The advantage of this rescue is that they are now draped over your two boats and the victim is on his/her back right in front of you. Nigel Foster tells a good story about how he once was paddling with a paraplegic who had a heart attack. He used this rescue and was able to bring the fellow in through the surf. He lived to paddle again. If the victim is conscious but injured it may be possible to do a "push tow" if you are the only other person available. Have the victim face towards you in their boat. Next have them hook the bow toggle of your boat under/around their deck bungies. You then hook the bow toggle of their boat under/around your deck bungies (those just in front of your cockpit). Now have them lean over and support themselves on the deck of your boat. If the water is not too rough it is possible to paddle forward in this position in a reasonably normal manner and still make good time. John Winskill Sisler, Clyde wrote: > Make the paddle & floats into an outrigger type thingee. That > should help a great deal. However, I suspect an unconscious person is > going to flop over to left or right side. The outrigger would probably > keep the boat from capsizing again but the person's head and shoulders > are probably going to flop into the water. I wonder if tying a line > from the PFD shoulder to the paddle on each side would help. If they > flop one way, the line on the opposite side might hold them back kinda > upright. > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Draping the victim across both boats would add a lot of stability to the situation, assuming less than calm seas, but how are you going to paddle across the other boat? At best, that would have to be very awkward and tiring. > If the victim is unconscious and you are by yourself you will have > your > hands full simply keeping them upright, never mind towing them. The > idea of setting up bilateral pontoons and lashing the victim in an > upright position is creative but I suspect it might be impossible on > the > water under anything other than ideal (and maybe not even then) > conditions. It would be more beneficial to put them into their boat > and > then drape them over your front deck so that you can keep an eye on > them > and then signal for help. (Good time to have a radio.) > Another method for getting them out of the water, other than stuffing > them back into their boat, is to pull them up across theirs and your > boat. Place the victim's boat between you and the vectim and, with > the > victim facing away from you, grab them by their PFD and pull/roll > them, > on their back, up over their boat and onto your front deck. The > advantage of this rescue is that they are now draped over your two > boats > and the victim is on his/her back right in front of you. Nigel Foster > tells a good story about how he once was paddling with a paraplegic > who > had a heart attack. He used this rescue and was able to bring the > fellow in through the surf. He lived to paddle again. > If the victim is conscious but injured it may be possible to do a > "push > tow" if you are the only other person available. Have the victim face > towards you in their boat. Next have them hook the bow toggle of your > boat under/around their deck bungies. You then hook the bow toggle of > their boat under/around your deck bungies (those just in front of your > cockpit). Now have them lean over and support themselves on the deck > of > your boat. If the water is not too rough it is possible to paddle > forward in this position in a reasonably normal manner and still make > good time. > > John Winskill > > > Sisler, Clyde wrote: > > > Make the paddle & floats into an outrigger type thingee. > That > > should help a great deal. However, I suspect an unconscious person > is > > going to flop over to left or right side. The outrigger would > probably > > keep the boat from capsizing again but the person's head and > shoulders > > are probably going to flop into the water. I wonder if tying a line > > from the PFD shoulder to the paddle on each side would help. If > they > > flop one way, the line on the opposite side might hold them back > kinda > > upright. > > > ********************************************************************** > ***** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > ********************************************************************** > ***** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Clyde; The truth is that if you have an unconscious person with you (and there are just two of you) you are not going to paddle well. You will be lucky to keep them alive while just sitting there. Unfortunately, to pass out in a kayak while by yourself or with just one other person is very close to a death sentence. Carry a radio. John Winskill Sisler, Clyde wrote: > > Draping the victim across both boats would add a lot of > stability to the situation, assuming less than calm seas, but how are > you going to paddle across the other boat? At best, that would have to > be very awkward and tiring. > > > If the victim is unconscious and you are by yourself you will have > > your > > hands full simply keeping them upright, never mind towing them. The > > idea of setting up bilateral pontoons and lashing the victim in an > > upright position is creative but I suspect it might be impossible on > > the > > water under anything other than ideal (and maybe not even then) > > conditions. It would be more beneficial to put them into their boat > > and > > then drape them over your front deck so that you can keep an eye on > > them > > and then signal for help. (Good time to have a radio.) > > Another method for getting them out of the water, other than stuffing > > them back into their boat, is to pull them up across theirs and your > > boat. Place the victim's boat between you and the vectim and, with > > the > > victim facing away from you, grab them by their PFD and pull/roll > > them, > > on their back, up over their boat and onto your front deck. The > > advantage of this rescue is that they are now draped over your two > > boats > > and the victim is on his/her back right in front of you. Nigel Foster > > tells a good story about how he once was paddling with a paraplegic > > who > > had a heart attack. He used this rescue and was able to bring the > > fellow in through the surf. He lived to paddle again. > > If the victim is conscious but injured it may be possible to do a > > "push > > tow" if you are the only other person available. Have the victim face > > towards you in their boat. Next have them hook the bow toggle of your > > boat under/around their deck bungies. You then hook the bow toggle of > > their boat under/around your deck bungies (those just in front of your > > cockpit). Now have them lean over and support themselves on the deck > > of > > your boat. If the water is not too rough it is possible to paddle > > forward in this position in a reasonably normal manner and still make > > good time. > > > > John Winskill > > > > > > Sisler, Clyde wrote: > > > > > Make the paddle & floats into an outrigger type thingee. > > That > > > should help a great deal. However, I suspect an unconscious person > > is > > > going to flop over to left or right side. The outrigger would > > probably > > > keep the boat from capsizing again but the person's head and > > shoulders > > > are probably going to flop into the water. I wonder if tying a line > > > from the PFD shoulder to the paddle on each side would help. If > > they > > > flop one way, the line on the opposite side might hold them back > > kinda > > > upright. > > > > > ********************************************************************** > > ***** > > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > > ********************************************************************** > > ***** > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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