At 09:41 AM 7/13/98 -0500, "Ralph E.Thayer" <RETUR_at_jazz.ucc.uno.edu> wrote: > >> >> Newsgroups: >> >> rec.boats.paddle >> >> >> >> >> >>USA Today is taking a straw poll on Jet Ski ban in National Parks. >> >>It will let you vote only once. The results as of Thursday evening had >> >>US leading by 79% over THEM at 21%. Interesting. >> >> >> >>Cast your vote at: http://www.usatoday.com/life/quick.htm >> >> [snip] ******************************************* >For whatever reason, my server cannot reach this URL.Anyone have >a similar problem? Let me know the fix, I would like to vote. thanks. > i would like you to vote ;-) as we're slipping. i just tried this link, and it worked for me ;-( and now it's 69% vs 31% mark #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com-------------------------------------- mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/paddler [index of Paddling websites I manage] Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page #-Fortune: Death is Nature's way of recycling human beings. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>>> >> >>> >>USA Today is taking a straw poll on Jet Ski ban in National Parks. >>> >>It will let you vote only once. The results as of Thursday evening had >>> >>US leading by 79% over THEM at 21%. Interesting. >>> >> >>> >>Cast your vote at: http://www.usatoday.com/life/quick.htm >>> >> >[snip] >******************************************* >>For whatever reason, my server cannot reach this URL.Anyone have >>a similar problem? Let me know the fix, I would like to vote. thanks. >> > >i would like you to vote ;-) as we're slipping. i just tried this link, >and it worked for me ;-( and now it's 69% vs 31% It was 65-35 as of 7pm est. Make sure that you vote "yes" if you are FOR the BAN--their wording of the stuff is kinda strange. > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On 7/13/98 17:53PM, Wynne Eden wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >>USA Today is taking a straw poll on Jet Ski ban in National Parks. >>>> >>It will let you vote only once. The results as of Thursday evening had >>>> >>US leading by 79% over THEM at 21%. Interesting. >>>> >> >>>> >>Cast your vote at: http://www.usatoday.com/life/quick.htm >>>> >> The anti-pwc vote is still slipping...as of 11:00 AM (eastern) on 7/14, the vote is now 59.6% for the ban, and 40.2% against the ban. If you haven't voted, please do so...many legislators and other influential types watch these USA Today straw polls. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Harrison-Houston, Texas email: nil_at_nol.net (_at_ _at_) web: www.nol.net/~nil/ ----------------------------ooO~(_)~Ooo---------------------------- 100% recycled electrons *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 10:13 AM 7/14/98 -0500, you wrote: > On 7/13/98 17:53PM, Wynne Eden wrote: > >>>>> >> >>>>> >>USA Today is taking a straw poll on Jet Ski ban in National Parks. >>>>> >>It will let you vote only once. The results as of Thursday evening had >>>>> >>US leading by 79% over THEM at 21%. Interesting. >>>>> >> >>>>> >>Cast your vote at: http://www.usatoday.com/life/quick.htm >>>>> >> >The anti-pwc vote is still slipping...as of 11:00 AM (eastern) on 7/14, >the vote is now 59.6% for the ban, and 40.2% against the ban. > >If you haven't voted, please do so...many legislators and other >influential types watch these USA Today straw polls. > I hope that no one pays too much attention to these types of polls. Online polls are very unreliable. It is quite easy to vote multiple times, or even to write a simple program to automate the voting process for you. Bob Tellefson High Quality Turnkey Systems & Consulting RCT Design Multi-platform systems our specialty 805-683-9717 Unix, Windows NT, Windows 95, Internet, Intranet 805-683-0717 (fax) http://www.zooid.com email: bob_at_zooid.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> From: Bob Tellefson <lists_at_zooid.com> > >influential types watch these USA Today straw polls. > > > > I hope that no one pays too much attention to these types of polls. Online > polls are very unreliable. It is quite easy to vote multiple times, or > even to write a simple program to automate the voting process for you. As a matter of fact, they are bragging on rec.sport.jetski on doing exactly that... voting multiple times. I agree no one should take these polls seriously except that I have heard the media (CNN for one) actually quoting from these internet polls like they mean something. ???? The USA Today website has a feedback link where you can make comments or complaints to them ( http://survey.usatoday.com/cgi-bin/feedback.cgi ). The media is in a lot of hot water recently because of irresponsible and false reporting. Gee... what a surprise :-) Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I just tried to "Vote" again to see what the response was and got a response of " Undemocratic Behavior detected - Vote not counted" I wonder if the server is setting a "cookie" so that it knows you've been there before. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: Jackie Fenton [SMTP:jackie_at_intelenet.net] > Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 1998 9:36 AM > To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net; gasp_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Vote in poll on Jet skis (fwd from > newsgroup) > > > > > > From: Bob Tellefson <lists_at_zooid.com> > > > >influential types watch these USA Today straw polls. > > > > > > > I hope that no one pays too much attention to these types of polls. > Online > > polls are very unreliable. It is quite easy to vote multiple times, > or > > even to write a simple program to automate the voting process for > you. > > As a matter of fact, they are bragging on rec.sport.jetski on doing > exactly that... voting multiple times. I agree no one should take > these polls seriously except that I have heard the media (CNN for one) > > actually quoting from these internet polls like they mean something. > ???? > The USA Today website has a feedback link where you can make comments > or complaints to them ( > http://survey.usatoday.com/cgi-bin/feedback.cgi ). > The media is in a lot of hot water recently because of irresponsible > and > false reporting. Gee... what a surprise :-) > > Jackie > ********************************************************************** > ***** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > ********************************************************************** > ***** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
That's exactly it. If you erase the cookie (filename is cookies.txt) you can vote again. I just did. I periodically delete this file anyway. >---------- >From: David Wood[SMTP:David_Wood_at_wireless.adc.com] >Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 1998 12:37 PM >To: 'Jackie Fenton'; paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net; >gasp_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Vote in poll on Jet skis (fwd from newsgroup) > >I just tried to "Vote" again to see what the response was and got a >response of " Undemocratic Behavior detected - Vote not counted" I >wonder if the server is setting a "cookie" so that it knows you've been >there before. > >Dave > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 10:37 AM 7/14/98 -0700, David Wood <David_Wood_at_wireless.adc.com> wrote: > >I just tried to "Vote" again to see what the response was and got a >response of " Undemocratic Behavior detected - Vote not counted" I >wonder if the server is setting a "cookie" so that it knows you've been >there before. > >Dave > yes, it does try to set a cookie. if you have your browser set to notify you of all cookies, you will see it set. mark [who only allows certain cookies, like oreos & chocolate chip] #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com-------------------------------------- mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/paddler [index of Paddling websites I manage] Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page #-Fortune: Death is Nature's way of recycling human beings. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>>> >>USA Today is taking a straw poll on Jet Ski ban in National Parks. >>> >>It will let you vote only once. The results as of Thursday evening had >>> >>US leading by 79% over THEM at 21%. Interesting. >>> >> >>> >>Cast your vote at: http://www.usatoday.com/life/quick.htm >>> >> >[snip] >******************************************* >>For whatever reason, my server cannot reach this URL.Anyone have >>a similar problem? Let me know the fix, I would like to vote. thanks. >> > >i would like you to vote ;-) as we're slipping. i just tried this link, >and it worked for me ;-( and now it's 69% vs 31% > >mark Worked fine for me but we've slipped further, down to 65% in favor of banning PWCs from natl parks. As devoid of interpretable information as these self selected polls are, I still want the Ban'em to be the result! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Ok guys, get those flame throwers ready! I voted no, because in addition to being a faithful kayaker, I also am a part owner of a jet ski! (Gasp!) All jet skiers aren't obnoxious. Yes, a ski makes an annoying whiny noise. But all skiers aren't irresponsible eighteen year old speed freaks. I am 35 and the guy I share the ski with is about 45. We both ski responsibly. If I am overtaking a canoe, kayak or fisherman, I get to the other side of the river and slow down to a crawl as to not make a wake or disturb the fish. If you want to ban all motors (even those on sailboats), I have no problem. However, many motorboats and even obnoxious sailers fail to yield the right of way to paddle craft. Additionally, many motorboats have louder motors than jetskis. For example, get behind a boat with dual 200 hp motors, and tell me what you hear, or behind a REALLY lound jet boat! Heck, even a "normal" motorboat with a 150 hp motor makes more noise than a jetski. A jetski just has a higher, more mosquito-type noise. Again, there are many obnoxious non-jetskiing boaters, and many responsible jetskiers. Let's try not to have any knee-jerk discrimination here. Every boater should be judged on his own actions. If a boater is particularly obnoxious, the response should be to call the marine police and have him (or her) ticketed. As a jet skier I have come to the assistance of paddlers in need of help. Jet skiers are often used in rescue operations by beach lifeguards. Lets try to judge others as we would like to be judged ourselves. - Scott Ives *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
While I did vote yes on the poll, I think the real solution is appropriate speed limits and licensing. You need a drivers license and need to be a certain age before you are allowed to drive public roads; you probably also ought to have to have a boating license to operate a powerboat on public waters. Heck, I'd even support a license with testing for all boats, power and otherwise, if it would net the weekend jetskier crowd. It seems to me that a lot of them feel they are above the law when they get on the water. The noise objection, and the general recklessness apparent from the statistics of jetski accidents, I understand as reasonable objections. On the other hand, I can't imagine a jetski that is capable of creating a wake of even noticeable proportion. Even the big 200hp deep-V hulls only throw a 2ft or so wake, barely big enough to play with, much less be hazardous. If you want to make jetskiers safe, put enforceable speed limits on the more congested waterways. A 20kt limit would be quite acceptable to most boaters, set the fine at say $30 for 10kts over or less, $100 for 10-20kts over, and $500 for 20kts+ over. You'll have sheriffs sitting in their boats with radar guns enforcing those rules quite effectively; instead of sitting in the shack drinking coffee. Really though, jetskiers seem to be most dangerous to their own, we just recently had a 3 way jetski collision on lake Conroe, sent them all to the hospital via life flight. I can't imagine how they made that happen though... Richard Walker Houston, TX *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> > From: "R. Walker" <rww_at_mailbox.neosoft.com> > > Really though, jetskiers seem to be most dangerous > to their own, we just recently had a 3 way jetski > collision on lake Conroe, sent them all to the > hospital via life flight. I can't imagine how > they made that happen though... It's a game where they chase and ram each other with the jetskiis. Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>> >> From: "R. Walker" <rww_at_mailbox.neosoft.com> > >> >> Really though, jetskiers seem to be most dangerous >> to their own, we just recently had a 3 way jetski >> collision on lake Conroe, sent them all to the >> hospital via life flight. I can't imagine how >> they made that happen though... > >It's a game where they chase and ram each other with the jetskiis. > >Jackie I think you are more right than you know. Locally, we had two crossing over/jumping a boat's wake (already illegal) and smashing into one another. Both had to be pulled out and sent to the hosp. Like anything from gun control to the DEA, a case can be made that it is the behavior and enforcement of existing rules rather than an outright ban that can make something safe, but anyone who has been on a PWC knows exactly what they are for and/or capable of.So...does fun=recklesness? location, location, location *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Scott Ives wrote: > Ok guys, get those flame throwers ready! I voted no, because in > addition to being a faithful kayaker, I also am a part owner of a jet > ski! (Gasp!) > > All jet skiers aren't obnoxious. Yes, a ski makes an annoying whiny > noise. But all skiers aren't irresponsible eighteen year old speed > freaks. I am 35 and the guy I share the ski with is about 45. We both > ski responsibly. If I am overtaking a canoe, kayak or fisherman, I get > to the other side of the river and slow down to a crawl as to not make a > wake or disturb the fish. > > If you want to ban all motors (even those on sailboats), I have no > problem. However, many motorboats and even obnoxious sailers fail to > yield the right of way to paddle craft. Additionally, many motorboats > have louder motors than jetskis. For example, get behind a boat with > dual 200 hp motors, and tell me what you hear, or behind a REALLY lound > jet boat! Heck, even a "normal" motorboat with a 150 hp motor makes > more noise than a jetski. A jetski just has a higher, more > mosquito-type noise. > I have to agree here. Jet skis, just like sailboats, kayaks, bass boats, etc. are a type of craft. No more, no less. The fault is not with a craft that does what it was designed to do very well, it is with the irresponsible way that a few people use them. The effort should go into eliminating those that cause the problem, not the entire group. I won't even get into what the future can hold once this kind of precedence is set. Mike -- Paddling along through fog so thick that only one's thoughts are visible, your reverie is abruptly shattered by the ancient cry of a great blue heron as she lifts uncertainly from the brilliant blue of a mussel-shell beach witnessed only by the brooding, wet spruce....your passage home seems as much back through time as it does through space. Mark H Hunt *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Hmmm, articulate, well thought out, reasonable reasoning....are you SURE you own a jetski? Just kidding. I have elected to eject every one of the jetski messages except yours and I'm glad you wrote it. I actually agree with you too. Jet skis are obnoxious. Many jet skiers are not obnoxious. I personally hate the noise of these especially when I'm paddling but I hate pinko communism and random government control even more. If your going to ban motors, ban them across the board (be a fair communist at least). No internal combustion engines...period. Take it a step further and eliminate motor homes and those goofy 4 wheel ATV things that are the land equal of a jetski. I'm all for it! But, it had better be fair. Now my view of reality. This is America and lobbiests will never allow this to happen (hehehe). The National Marine Manufacturers Association and the affiliated hooha groups wield a mighty stick. If you want to change something (like the problem), change the noise levels that these things are allowed to spew. Then make it a federal crime to alter the silencing systems. Can't be done? Look at the auto industry. In 1975 all cars were required to have cat converters in the exhaust and meet noise restrictions too. It is a federal crime to change that and people actually get banged for altering pollution controls. There are processes in many states for checking them as well. I still drive my 500 horsepower, open pipe, '60's street machine (legal when built) and it is so loud it shakes the ground. Remember when everyone had one (ok it was '66-'74) ??? Now, you will never hear those sounds again and thank goodness the world is a better place because of it. Controls are in place and they are respected and enforced (enforcement, a key concept, anyone want to talk gun control?). Since these noisemakers are registered like powerboats, they could be subject to annual inspection (think of the state revenues THAT would generate). This commentary could go on and on and on because I am having a kneejerk (or just a jerk) reaction to yet another group of people pretending to be self rightous blah blah blah. I'm ready to be flamed.....but I bet the flamers have a commie flag tacked up on the wall inside their garage! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Thanks Wilax, you sound halfway intelligent yourself! ;) I have to agree that even as a jetskier, I don't particularly like their whiny noise. If you could make a quieter one, I would actually buy it, even if it were a few more $$. Just one more point on the environment issue some folks have read. I will concede that jetskis can be harmful to the environment simply because they can go places motorboats can't (ie. skinny water). I have unfortunately scared wildlife by accident simply because of my presence (even at controlled speeds). Of course birds and deer will also flee from paddlers, but it is not quite so dramatic. However, taken to extreme the anti-environment argument just doesn't fly. Think about it, don't you drive a car and pollute and use natural resources just to get to a nice place to paddle? If you aren't using mass transportation - or better human power - you are also guilty of unnecessarily endangering the environment! How about that air conditioning you are blasting while driving to that nice spot? I believe all cars (unlike new refrigerators) still use freon which is harmful to the ozone layer! But I can live with total bans on motors! Of course it won't be in every body of water, but I do like human powered lakes as well as the next person! As for wasteful cars, I'm probably more guilty than the next guy! My 96 Mustang Cobra challenges your 60's muscle car for bad fuel consumption - 16 mpg! Oh well, I guess I'm just becoming a libertarian in my old age. As another poster said, if Big Brother starts in on jetskis today, it might be your kayaks tomorrow! I mean geez, my county actually taxes my damn dogs! - Scott WILAX_at_aol.com wrote: > > Hmmm, articulate, well thought out, reasonable reasoning....are you SURE you > own a jetski? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, Jul 14, 1998 at 09:36:31PM -0400, Scott Ives wrote: > However, taken to extreme the anti-environment argument just doesn't > fly. That's why no one has proposed taking it to an extreme: because it doesn't fly. (There is also no reason to do so.) I would suggest instead of taking it to an extreme that you consider it on its merits as it stands: jet skis emit ferocious quantities of sound, air, and water pollution -- in quantities far in excess of that generated by, say, automobiles. (Did you see the stats on this quoted by another author in an article here yesterday?) And if that wasn't bad enough, because they can reach almost anywhere in an aquatic environment, they are capable of emitting this pollution into extremely sensitive areas, where it can have a disproportionate impact. Jet ski manufacturers are well aware of this, and have been for some time; yet they have steadfastly refused to address the issue (other than with rhetoric). Jet ski users have not, as a group, demanded that it be addressed; simultaneously, they have continued to operate their PWC and to often do so in sensitive areas (e.g. the group which was turned backed by the National Park Service while trying to run a wilderness river canyon earlier this spring). In fact, I see no evidence to date to indicate that either group will deal with this issue (or, for that matter, the related safety issues) unless they are forced to. Which is what will now happen. ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk_at_gsp.org *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
This message is a request for information and opinions regarding a kayak. I am looking for a tandem to paddle with my wife and I found an ad for a boat described thusly: "Voyager Expedition 2 cockpit plastic touring kayak fully outfitted with deck bungies, Aquaterra foot rudder, and comfortable seats. Fast and stable." The seller says he is not sure the manufacturer is still in business, but that it is a great boat he bought new in 1995. I looked around the Web and found few references to boats with similar names. Does anyone have information on these boats? Thanks in advance. Ropn Johnson Ron Johnson = rfred_at_mindspring.com "How every fool can play upon the word!" W. Shakespeare, Merchant of Venice *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 12:19 PM 7/14/98 -0400, you wrote: > > Again, there are many obnoxious non-jetskiing boaters, and many >responsible jetskiers. Let's try not to have any knee-jerk >discrimination here. Every boater should be judged on his own actions. >If a boater is particularly obnoxious, the response should be to call >the marine police and have him (or her) ticketed. > > > Lets try to judge others as we would like to be judged ourselves. > I agree, but I still vote yes to remove PWC from the park systems. I would also vote yes to remove the roads, ski boats, cars, ... It is not that I think that all people using these "technical improvements" are irresponsible or nasty people. It is just that there are too many of us wanting access to the great outdoors and this pressure has definitely caused a decline in the quality of the experience for all of us over the past 10, 20, 30 or however many years you wish to look at. Thirty years ago a group of us lobbied to leave roads in the Los Padres Forest open to motorcycles. Our reasoning sounded much like yours. I am now glad we were not successful. There are just too many motorcycles now to allow for this freedom. Clearly the harder it is to get where you are going, the better the quality of the experience when you get there. Thirty years ago backpackers were not very numerous. The fact that they are everywhere today tells me that many folks are willing to work harder for a better quality experience. I think our park systems should encourage this; they should limit mechanized access and reward those that willing to walk or paddle. With a large, relatively wealthy population (able to afford toys and leisure time), it inevitably becomes a freedom vs. quality decision. By the way, I have a motorcycle, a camper, and a motorhome. I just sold the motorhome. I will keep the camper to get to where I put in or begin hiking. Anyone interested in a 500 Yamaha - cheap? Bob Tellefson http://www.zooid.com/sbpaddle *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I don't hate all jetskiers. I hate jetskis *when they are in places that they should never ever be.* They do not belong on wilderness rivers. They do not belong in national parks. They do not belong in environmentally sensitive areas. They do not belong in areas used by non-powered watercraft. They do not belong in areas used by swimmers. *IF* the PWC industry dramatically reduces the emissions (which consist of water, air, and sound pollution in amazingly high quantities) *and* makes safety improvements *and* assists in setting up a mandatory, stringent licensing program, then I'm willing to tolerate their presence in areas which are designated as available for the use of PWC. I'm not holding my breath, however: the PWC lobby seems more intent on continuing to line its pockets by selling these aquatic crotch rockets to anyone with the cash and by attempting to make sure that they can inflict their presence on anyone, anyplace. They have made it impossible to be a moderate on this issue by their intransigence and their utter failure to acknowledge their responsibility as an industry for the problems caused by their products. So at this point, I'm annoyed enough with them that I will support any and all legislation restricting or banning the sale and/or use of PWC anywhere, anytime. "They" had their chance to behave responsibly and blew it (in fact, they continue to blow it), so now it's time to hit them with tons of regulations -- which is one way our society deals with irresponsible behavior. ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk_at_gsp.org *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
The Jetski industry is at the same point now that the snowmobile industry was at 20 years ago. They were forced by public opinion at the time to clean up their act, and did so for the most part without excessive regulation. The snowmobile industry is now one of the most respected power recreation groups in North America. Like snowmobiles then, jetskis are a new toy and attract the wreckless. You will probably see this group start to police itself within the next couple years. They will have to if they want to survive. Mike -- Paddling along through fog so thick that only one's thoughts are visible, your reverie is abruptly shattered by the ancient cry of a great blue heron as she lifts uncertainly from the brilliant blue of a mussel-shell beach witnessed only by the brooding, wet spruce....your passage home seems as much back through time as it does through space. Mark H Hunt *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 10:41:27AM -0400, Michael R Noyes wrote: > The Jetski industry is at the same point now that the snowmobile > industry was at 20 years ago. They were forced by public opinion at the > time to clean up their act, and did so for the most part without > excessive regulation. The jetski industry (and its clients) have demonstrated that they will only clean up their act if they are *forced* to. Which is precisely what will now happen. I suppose it's too much to hope for to have them banned entirely, but I'll certainly support any regulations, no matter how draconian. It's no less than what they deserve, given their history. > The snowmobile industry is now one of the most > respected power recreation groups in North America. Respected *by whom*? As someone who travels the backcountry during the winter from time to time, *I* certainly don't "respect" them. ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk_at_gsp.org *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I HATE jet skiers. They are pathetic excuses for ourdoor enthusiasts----an ideal past time for huge fat slobs who can do nothing else but eat and sleep, and now terrorize around on a jet ski like they are some kind of "athlete", all the while polluting the environment--as if the sight of them was not pollution enough!!!. As a freediver ( who uses a surf ski to get to the reefs) the jet skiiers are one of our major threats if we choose to dive the shallower 25 foot deep reefs about 250 yards off shore. The jet skiers think of this as their realm, and they see our dive flags as pylons to race around, frequently running over them. Even if I had no desire to shoot a fish, I would carry a speargun so I could point it at them to get their attention-----when they run full throttle at a diver with nothing in their hands, they pretend not to see us---when they suddenly realize a 65 inch speargun is pointing directly at them, they tend to turn off sooner, and avoid the area for some time...unfortunately, their are so many of the dumb fat asses, that when one leaves, another is sure to take his place soon after. So far I have not "landed" a jet ski, but my gun is definitely big enough, and should one not veer off, my bet is I can take out the engine with one shot. While I don't relish being run over, it would almost be worth the excuse. Dan Volker -----Original Message----- From: Rich Kulawiec <rsk_at_gsp.org> To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net>; gasp_at_lists.intelenet.net <gasp_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Tuesday, July 14, 1998 7:21 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Why hate all Jetskiers? (Re: Vote in poll on Jet skis) >I don't hate all jetskiers. > >I hate jetskis *when they are in places that they should never ever be.* > >They do not belong on wilderness rivers. They do not belong in national >parks. They do not belong in environmentally sensitive areas. They do >not belong in areas used by non-powered watercraft. They do not >belong in areas used by swimmers. > >*IF* the PWC industry dramatically reduces the emissions (which consist >of water, air, and sound pollution in amazingly high quantities) *and* makes >safety improvements *and* assists in setting up a mandatory, stringent >licensing program, then I'm willing to tolerate their presence in areas >which are designated as available for the use of PWC. > >I'm not holding my breath, however: the PWC lobby seems more intent on >continuing to line its pockets by selling these aquatic crotch rockets >to anyone with the cash and by attempting to make sure that they can >inflict their presence on anyone, anyplace. They have made it impossible >to be a moderate on this issue by their intransigence and their utter >failure to acknowledge their responsibility as an industry for the problems >caused by their products. > >So at this point, I'm annoyed enough with them that I will support any >and all legislation restricting or banning the sale and/or use of PWC >anywhere, anytime. "They" had their chance to behave responsibly and >blew it (in fact, they continue to blow it), so now it's time to hit them >with tons of regulations -- which is one way our society deals with >irresponsible behavior. > >---Rsk >Rich Kulawiec >rsk_at_gsp.org >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >*************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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