Hello All! A few weeks back, my Icom IC-M1 VHF died. I was out rolling and the LCD screen filled with water. Pretty sad, but at least it didn't happen out in the field, just during a practice session. So, I sent it into Icom who repaired it and sent it back. This is where it gets interesting. Along with the radio was a little sales flyer with the headline "Water-resistant protection you can count on!." The following paragraph reads: Water-resistant construction Effective water-resistance provides reliable operation under severe marine conditions. Torrential downpours, heavy seas -- no problem for this transceiver. Interesting. Someone had actually circled this paragraph with a red pen. My LCD screen distinctly says "Waterproof". The website at Icom rates the radio as: • Submersible JIS-7 rating (withstands submersion for 30 minutes at depth of 1 meter) So, what's the deal? I know alot of people who paddle with Icom *because* it is supposedly the most waterproof of the handhelds. Maybe we should put together a petition for them to get their sh*t in gear and make the radio waterproof. I think that the paddling community must make up a fairly sizable portion of their IC-M1 sales. Ideas? -Patrick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Patrick Maun wrote: > > ...SNIP... > > So, what's the deal? I know alot of people who paddle with Icom > *because* it is supposedly the most waterproof of the handhelds. Actually, according to someone with whom I spoke at Icom, the model that failed you (the IC-M1) is *not* the most waterproof of the handhelds, in fact it is not even the most waterproof of the Icom handhelds, in spite of the rating. The M1 may be the most waterproof of the el-cheapo handhelds, but the M15 and the Navico Axis both have a better reputation for waterproofness. (I bought an M15 after talking to Icom, and after reading a report of one that withstood one day submerged at 10 feet without leaking.) The most important thing to remember, however, is that *any* piece of waterproof equipment can fail. That is why I like to carry back-ups. (I carry a back-up radio and a back-up GPS.) Remember Murphy's Law! Dan Hagen Bellingham, Washington *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 03:59 PM 13/08/98 -0700, you wrote: >Patrick Maun wrote: >> >> ...SNIP... >> >> So, what's the deal? I know alot of people who paddle with Icom > *because* it is supposedly the most waterproof of the handhelds. > >Actually, according to someone with whom I spoke at Icom, the model that >failed you (the IC-M1) is *not* the most waterproof of the handhelds, in >fact it is not even the most waterproof of the Icom handhelds, in spite >of the rating. The M1 may be the most waterproof of the el-cheapo >handhelds, but the M15 and the Navico Axis both have a better reputation >for waterproofness. I'll vouch for the M15. I always have it attached to the outside of my life jacket, and have had it submerged underwater many times while rolling. It has been through *a lot*. No problems yet! I have a photo of my PFD, and all the other safty equiptment(including the M15) which I carry while paddling... at this location: http://www.solomax.com/formyprotection.html Have fun... ALWAYS! MAX http://www.solomax.com ~ A four year solo kayak journey ~ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dan Hagen wrote: >Actually, according to someone with whom I spoke at Icom, the model that >failed you (the IC-M1) is *not* the most waterproof of the handhelds, in >fact it is not even the most waterproof of the Icom handhelds, in spite >of the rating. [SNIP] But, according to Icoms website and other information the M1 and M15 have the same rating.This is really annoying because how else am I supposed to find this information out. To me,something is either waterproof or it isn't. Icom can't go on calling the M1 waterproof if the thing is going to fail with a minor dunking. That is water-resistant, not waterproof. The reason I got a waterproof handheld was so that I wouldn't have to keep it in a dry bag. -Patrick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Patrick Maun wrote: > > But, according to Icoms website and other information the M1 and M15 > have the same rating. This is really annoying because how else am I > supposed to find this information out. To me,something is either > waterproof or it isn't. It isn't quite this simple. The fact that two designs meet the same minimum standard does not imply that they are equally well built. All designs have some probability of failure. One would certainly expect that the probability of failure differs across designs (even among those designs that meet the same minimum standard). > Icom can't go on calling the M1 waterproof if > the thing is going to fail with a minor dunking. Sure they can--particularly if they are willing to provide a warranty against failure due to water penetration. I'm sure that Icom will repair or replace your unit under warranty. Of course a warranty doesn't do you much good if you need it in an emergency and the thing doesn't work. This is why it is important to do a bit of research into the experiences of others regarding reliability. Max's experiences are a good example of the sort of thing to which I am referring. Of course it would be nice to find some hard data, but even anecdotes can be of some use. As a colleague of mine likes to point out, the plural of "anecdote" is "data". :-) > The reason I got a waterproof handheld was so that I wouldn't have > to keep it in a dry bag. If you want to avoid the use of a baggie, I recommend that you consider an M15 or a Navico Axis. FWIW, my personal opinion is that an M15, a couple of batteries (say, a 900mAh and a 1200mAh), and a rapid charger make a combination that is hard to beat. I would also add a telescoping antenna, as a longer antenna will dramatically increase your range of transmission. (Adapters are available to attach a TNC or BNC antenna to an SMA mount.) Dan Hagen Bellingham, Washington *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dan Hagen wrote: >Sure they can--particularly if they are willing to provide a warranty >against failure due to water penetration. I'm sure that Icom will >repair or replace your unit under warranty. They did repair it under warranty. It's not the warranty that I'm complaining about, it's the fact that they present the M1 and M15 as having the same level of waterproofing. I did my research in the way that most of us do: I asked fellow paddlers, posted to the list, looked at various Internet specs and brochures, and finally, talked with the guys at US Marine. It just ticks me off that Icom is now claiming that the radio is "resistant" (the flyer is actually dated 1995) and not waterproof. I still know several people who have their M1's strapped to their PFD's and are rolling happily away with them. How long until these fail in the field, especially now that we (in the Midwest) are getting closer to the more dangerous fall season on Lake Superior. >If you want to avoid the use of a baggie, I recommend that you consider >an M15 or a Navico Axis. After I spent $250 getting the M1 just a few months ago? Anyone have an idea of how long after purchase US Marine will exchange a radio? And what is the price of the M15? And is the M15 *really* more waterproof than the M1? Too many questions, why can't the damn thing just work like it's supposed to. Hrumpf. -Patrick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Patrick Maun wrote: > > ...why can't the damn thing just work like it's supposed to. Hrumpf. I feel your pain. But as I'm sure you know, it's wise to avoid placing too much faith in the reliability of gadgets. Sooner or later they will let you down, no matter how well built they are. I'm sure that the booster rocket that exploded recently (along with its billion-dollar satellite) was very carefully designed and well built. But it simply isn't possible to eliminate all risk of failure-- *particularly* when we are talking about a $200 mass-produced radio that is to be used (and abused) in a marine environment. If you think about it, it is amazing that some of these gadgets work as well and as long as they do... Dan Hagen Bellingham, Washington *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
The 520 is visibly better built for water tightness than is the M3A (JS-4 rating). Of worthy mention however is, I would monitor the Wx from the M3A in the car. I can't do that with the Apelco 520. I conclude that the Icom had a more sensitive receiver, although I don't know what the specs say. Robert *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
All this talk about radios has got me thinking it might be a good safety idea to get one, as I paddle alone a lot. I looked at a Raytheon today. Has anyone seen / heard of / used Raytheon's "Ray106" ? Opinions? The specifications seem similar to the ICOM M15. (I know nothing about radios.) Anne Burton *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 98-08-14 14:48:50 EDT, you write: > > << I would also add a telescoping > antenna, as a longer antenna will dramatically increase your range of > transmission. (Adapters are available to attach a TNC or BNC antenna to > an SMA mount.) >> > > Any possibility you could translate that last bit into pilot-speak? The > alphabet part about adaptors? Either for me or for the list? Would be really > helpful to know if I can do this to my Apelco 510. These simply refer to different antenna mounts. The TNC and BNC are larger mounts (the TNC being a bit more common on modern radios), while the SMA is a much smaller mount, and is used on some Icom models (such as the M1 and the M15) and on some Standard models (such as the HX-250/255). All of the telescoping antennas that I have seen have a TNC or BNC fitting--thus the need for an adapter if you have a radio with an SMA mount. (BTW, depending on the nature of the adapter, waterproofing the connection is fairly simple. However, I suspect that for most handheld waterproof radios the waterproofing of the antenna adapter is primarily a *corrosion* issue, not a water penetration issue, but don't hold me to that...you should look into this for your specific radio.) Your Apelco 510 has a TNC mount, which means that all you need to do is to buy an antenna with a TNC mount--there is no need for an adapter. These are readily available from marine electronics stores. Those who own an Icom need to exercise care in selecting an antenna and/or adapter, as Icom has produced models with all three types of antenna mounts. Dan Hagen Bellingham, Washington *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Robert C. Cline wrote: > The problem with the M15 is, it only uses the rechargable batteries... not > the Alkaline that are off the shelf. On extended overnights, or days of > heavy usage, this presents a problem. Huh? Unless you know something that I don't, this statement is simply untrue. First, I think what you mean is that Icom does not make a AA battery pack for the M15. This does not imply that you cannot use AA alkaline batteries, it simply implies that you need to use a wee bit of resourcefulness to use them. As was pointed out in an article in Sea Kayaker magazine a few years back, it is a simple matter for any competent electronics technician to rig up a AA battery pack for most handheld radios. In the case of the M15 this is particularly easy, because of the large size of the high-capacity battery case and because of the nature of the watertight gasket. (HINT: Have the technician remove the NiCad cells and insert fittings for AAs.) Having said this, and having used both AA alkalines and NiCads in handheld VHF radios, I have difficulty imagining why anyone would prefer to use AA alkalines. There are significant advantages to NiCads: (1) Good NiCads can be cycled approximately 1,500 times. The equivalent number of disposable alkalines is quite large (and very costly). This loses relevance only if you use your radio very infrequently. (2) NiCads have a very flat voltage curve as they are discharged. This contrasts with alkalines, whose voltage drops significantly as they are used. For this reason, Icom was in the past quite hesitant to provide a transmit power rating for their handhelds that use AA's. (I used to use, and still have, an Icom M7 with both a NiCad and a AA battery pack. The transmit power for the AA alkaline batteries, according to Icom, was lower and more variable than for the NiCad.) The disadvantages of NiCads: (1) You need to "babysit" them. They need to be exercised occasionally (fully discharged and recharged), and they need to be monitored for storage time, as they self-discharge in storage. (Approximately 20 percent in the first month, and 10 percent per month thereafter.) The hassle associated with both of these problems are mitigated through the use of a rapid charger (hence my recommendation to include one in the "optimal" package). (2) They have a higher up-front cost. If you are going on a long expedition (say, more than one month) you might need to buy two or more battery packs. My recommendation of a 900mAh and a 1200mAh for the M15 will last a VERY long time, unless you are talkative to the point of violating FCC regulations. (While the upfront expense of two or more battery packs is significant, if you use the radio frequently this is still much cheaper than buying a mountain of alkalines.) While this is one of those issues where I do not expect to change anyone's opinion, in my experience (having used both alkalines and NiCads) there is no contest. NiCads, on balance, are a clearly superior choice for handheld VHF radios. But if for some bizarre reason you disagree :^) -- and want to use a reliable, truly waterproof, very rugged handheld VHF -- then buy an Icom M15 and have a technician modify a battery pack to use AA alkalines (yuck!). Otherwise use a "baggie", and check it frequently for leaks. As always, this is simply my humble opinion. Dan Hagen Mazama, Washington *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dan wrote: >(2) They have a higher up-front cost. If you are going on a long >expedition (say, more than one month) you might need to buy two or more >battery packs. My recommendation of a 900mAh and a 1200mAh for the M15 >will last a VERY long time, unless you are talkative to the point of >violating FCC regulations. (While the upfront expense of two or more >battery packs is significant, if you use the radio frequently this is >still much cheaper than buying a mountain of alkalines.) > >While this is one of those issues where I do not expect to change >anyone's opinion, in my experience (having used both alkalines and >NiCads) there is no contest. NiCads, on balance, are a clearly superior >choice for handheld VHF radios. But if for some bizarre reason you >disagree :^) -- and want to use a reliable, truly waterproof, very >rugged handheld VHF -- then buy an Icom M15 and have a technician modify >a battery pack to use AA alkalines (yuck!). DAn: Thanks for these and the other very useful suggestions. Yes, the only reason I wanted a radio to be able to use the alkalines was to avoid the necessity of recharging. On trips of more than a couple of days, it would be very prudent to have a radio that could use both. I could not imagine why ICOM (or any other manufucturer) would not design a handheld that could use the alkalines as an option. Perhaps it would be worth it to buy a couple of backup battery packs. I never thought to ask about price of the backups NiCads. I was simply thinking about the practical matter of having backup batteries availble. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Just an FYI: I have had my ICOM M-1 with a NiCad battery out on a 7 day trip and had no trouble with low battery syndrome. I drained it empty before the trip and fully charged it. On the trip I did no transmitting and only did twice daily weather checks. -chris *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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