Jerry Foodman wrote: I did several 1 nautical mile timed calm water speed trials with each of various boats. Here is the average of my best two speeds for each boat: Mariner Coaster: 4.55 knots Mariner Express: 4.70 knots Necky Tesla: 4.82 knots Seda Glider: 4.99 knots Seda Impulse: 5.05 knots CD Solstice GTS: 5.16 knots As you can see, I have only mediocre strength. I know that the faster boats can be driven by a racer considerably faster than 5 knots over longer than my 1 nm. I would be interested if any stronger paddler has made similar timed comparisons. I found that my sense of which boat was fastest had no relation to the actual timed data. I will never use a demo day trial to conclude that a boat is fast. I believe that at 4 knots and below there is not a dime's worth of difference in the efficiency of these boats, but I don't know how to test this. Jerry These were flat water time trials, which do give you an idea of relative boat speed. However, I've found that in wind and waves, the whole thing changes. I've been on the water in moderately rough conditions many times when several Coasters were well out in front of the longer boats. John *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Lull wrote: >These were flat water time trials, which do give you an idea of relative boat speed. However, I've found that in wind and waves, the whole thing changes. I've been on the water in moderately rough conditions many times when several Coasters were well out in front of the longer boats. > John, I know that you also have an Express and have had a Mariner II. Wouldn't you agree that for travelling in the wind and waves of moderately rough conditions, especially down weather, you could do so faster, or more efficiently, in the Express than the Coaster, and even more so in the II? The longer the boat the quicker you will pick up a wind wave and the longer you can stay on it. You will also require less control effort, either leans or paddle moves, in the longer boat. Unless, of course, you are playing in the confusion of tide rips or rock gardens, when the Coaster outshines the others. Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John and Jerry have been writing about boat performance and speed trials; (SNIP) >I found that my sense of which boat was fastest had no relation to the >actual timed data. I will never use a demo day trial to conclude that a >boat is fast. I believe that at 4 knots and below there is not a dime's >worth of difference in the efficiency of these boats, but I don't know how >to test this. This does not appear to be unusual. When developing the Stealth Canoe for the CCA we had top level (read Olympic medalists) test the new boat and then test their own personal boats. In every case they said the new boat was slower yet their times were always faster. Why? It turned out that the paddlers associated top speed with the noise and trim changes that accompanied their personal boats. Thus, if they did not experience the same changes and sensations they assumed they were not not going "fast". This strikes me as something fascinating. We sense so many things when paddling and appear to connect them as a perceived whole. Perhaps this explains why our perception of a specific aspect of paddling can be inaccurate - because we confuse sensations. Jerry wrote; > >These were flat water time trials, which do give you an idea of relative boat speed. However, I've found that in wind and waves, the whole thing changes. I've been on the water in moderately rough conditions many times when several Coasters were well out in front of the longer boats. Readers might be interested in why this might be so (this is a much simplified explanation. For those wanting the full thing I can refer them to the appropriate texts). Every boat has a natural pitching and heaving frequency. If the period of encounter with the waves approaches that of the boat's natural frequency then pitching and heaving increases and speed suffers. Since waves vary in length and boats vary in speed periods of encounter vary and shorter boats might be "faster" in waves that do not cause it problems but do cause the longer boat problems. If the period of encounter changes in favour of the longer boat then the longer boat can become "faster" again. I have actually been able to bring a boat to a complete stop when the waves were steep enough and the right length. As you can imagine, designing boats to suit sea conditions might be important. Designers of America's Cup yachts study the wave spectrums in the area where the race will be held and then adjust the design to provide the best match for the expected conditions. Those who have seen films of the British Challenger Sceptre bobbing about while Columbia charged ahead will have seen this at work. The effect of pitching and heaving may not always be obvious to sea kayakers so it can be a bit of shock when a "slower" boat pulls ahead. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Lull wrote: >These were flat water time trials, which do give you an idea of relative boat speed. However, I've found that in wind and waves, the whole thing changes. I've been on the water in moderately rough conditions many times when several Coasters were well out in front of the longer boats. > John, I was with Fred M. on an 8 mile paddle in the ocean from La Jolla to Mission Bay. The wind was about 15 knots from behind, as were the swells, the whole way. Fred was in his ultra light, graphite Arluk II, I was in the Mariner Express. He is generally quite a bit stronger than me, but I was way ahead the whole paddle. The Express is so much easier to control in those conditions that I was just surfing all the time. He was low bracing. Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Gerald Foodman wrote: > ... > I was with Fred M. on an 8 mile paddle in the ocean from La Jolla to > Mission > Bay. The wind was about 15 knots from behind, as were the swells, the > whole > way. Fred was in his ultra light, graphite Arluk II, I was in the > Mariner > Express. He is generally quite a bit stronger than me, but I was way > ahead > the whole paddle. The Express is so much easier to control in those > conditions that I was just surfing all the time. He was low bracing. I find this to be a very interesting example, as I have also had a memorable downwind surfing experience with a fellow in an Arluk II. One of the best days that I have ever had surfing wind waves was on a day when we had 25-30 knot winds blowing over a relatively long fetch. I went out to surf alone, but as is often the case I soon met up with another paddler, who was also alone. This guy was a local whitewater and sea kayaking instructor, and he was paddling a light blue Arluk II. (Some of you may know to whom I am referring.) He was surfing those wind waves as smoothly and as effortlessly as anyone I have ever seen--in complete control, flying along like the wind. Moreover, his Arluk II was *extremely* fast into the wind as we sprinted out for another ride. (Faster, I am sure, than an Express.) So what am I driving at? Whether or not a particular boat is difficult to control depends on who is paddling it. Dan Hagen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Jerry wrote; >John, >I was with Fred M. on an 8 mile paddle in the ocean from La Jolla to Mission >Bay. The wind was about 15 knots from behind, as were the swells, the whole >way. Fred was in his ultra light, graphite Arluk II, I was in the Mariner >Express. He is generally quite a bit stronger than me, but I was way ahead >the whole paddle. The Express is so much easier to control in those >conditions that I was just surfing all the time. He was low bracing. I am not particularly surprised at this. The Arluks have a shorter effective waterline length than the Mariners. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dan Hagen wrote: >This guy was a local whitewater and >sea kayaking instructor, and he was paddling a light blue Arluk II. >(Some of you may know to whom I am referring.) He was surfing those wind >waves as smoothly and as effortlessly as anyone I have ever seen--in >complete control, flying along like the wind. Moreover, his Arluk II >was *extremely* fast into the wind as we sprinted out for another ride. >(Faster, I am sure, than an Express.) So what am I driving at? Whether >or not a particular boat is difficult to control depends on who is >paddling it. Exactly right. If you are sea kayaking instructor,and can surf smoothly and effortlessly in an Arluk II, it is probably faster than the Express. (Maybe only if you are well above 4 knots.) But for my pal and me, ordinary paddlers, the Arluk II is much less forgiving than the Express and requires more attention, i.e., low braces to stay upright. So an ordinary paddler may get more performance out of the Express. Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:32:52 PDT