Scott wrote: >If they were too far gone that I didn't believe they could paddle, then I >think the next option would be to have them climb out of their boat and lie on >my back deck, arms around my waist with their feet apart and in the water for >stability. I believe I could land a person through all but the hairiest of >surf in this fashion. At the very least I could get them close enough to shore >so that if I did lose it and capsize I could exit my boat and swim (walk?) the >victim the rest of the way in. Prior to a three-week paddle trip this summer with two friends, we all practised various self- and group rescues together. My two companions are experienced paddlers in their own right, and have a good sense of how a kayak needs to balance. One of the methods we played with was the "victim on the rear deck" rescue. Admittedly my boat was unladen and therefore tippier than it would be while touring, but I was struck by just how unstable the "victim" made my boat, even with their torso pressed to the deck. And this was in calmish water. Of course, this may simply reflect my limitations as a paddler. The prospect of bringing someone in through surf this way does not fill me with delight. I'd be concerned the additional weight at the back would cause the boat to broach very easily. (Although I suppose their legs dragging in the water might act as "sea anchors", reducing the broaching effect.) While I'm comfortable side-surfing with a brace, my head is above water much of the time. Anyone with their body pressed to the rear deck is going to have their head underwater a lot of the time - perhaps the whole way into the beach - in even moderate waves. Ugly enough if you were in good shape to begin with - utterly brutal if you were in bad shape from cold. Then too, once you do start to side-surf, you are committed until the wave lets you go - you can't back off while your passenger takes a breath. So that leaves paddling in with them on your rear deck, with the boat facing out to sea. While I like playing in the surf, I find being surfed backwards down the face of a wave is a very out-of-control, scary feeling. And all that weight on the rear deck would make it far harder not to be surfed backwards. So, what I am left with? One possibility would be to inflate my Sea-Seat (I'd use a paddle float if I didn't have this). Just outside the surf zone, my passenger and I would get out of our boats, and swim far enough to one side that we wouldn't mix it up with the kayaks in the surf zone. Then we'd join arms across the floatation and try to ride through the surf as quickly as possible. This idea assumes a few things: That the victim is still able to assist at least moderately in their own rescue. That they are prepared to enter the water. That the beach is big, rock-free and gradual enough that we and the boats are likely to get in intact. That I really would be noble enough to abandon, however temporarily, a perfectly good boat. Great scenario, very thought-provoking, no easy and certain solution. Cheers, Philip T. **************************************** Mountain Equipment Co-op 1655 West 3rd Avenue, Vancouver, BC, Canada V6J 1K1 Tel: 640-732-1989 Fax: 604-731-6483 email: pid_at_mec.ca Visit our website at: http://www.mec.ca ***************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
If you were faced with really terrible surf to enter, your best way in would be with a good mask, fins and snorkel---I'm not saying it would always be fun, but 12 footers are not much challenge in this manner---and this is easy to store as emergency or fun to use type gear. As fas as dragging a nearly unconscious person wth you, I'd do this with mask and fins LONG before I'd try it on a kayak. The fins need to be very tight fitting so the breaking waves can't yank them off, and the mask should be a low volume free diving type, such as a cressi superochio, or an esclapez or Omer freeding mask about $45 for the mask)...fins should be easy to get on fast, if emergency use is your primary reason for them. My choice would be full foot freediving fins, since they are most efficient and can be worn barefoot or with socks. If you wear some type of kayak type water proof shoe, several open heel fins could be pulled on over your shoes, but the strapping system on the open heel fin would need to be very secure and strong. A snorkel will make swimming in surf easy--breathing will be easy---if you don't have snorkelling shills, buy an Impulse by U.S Divers---it is a snorkel that stAys dry and requires no knowledge of snorkel clearing. Regards, Dan Volker > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of Product > Information Department > Sent: Friday, November 06, 1998 11:54 AM > To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: [Paddlewise] landing a victim through surf > > > Scott wrote: > >If they were too far gone that I didn't believe they could paddle, then I > >think the next option would be to have them climb out of their boat and > lie on > >my back deck, arms around my waist with their feet apart and in > the water for > >stability. I believe I could land a person through all but the > hairiest of > >surf in this fashion. At the very least I could get them close enough to > shore > >so that if I did lose it and capsize I could exit my boat and > swim (walk?) > the > >victim the rest of the way in. > > Prior to a three-week paddle trip this summer with two friends, we all > practised various self- and group rescues together. My two companions are > experienced paddlers in their own right, and have a good sense of how a > kayak needs to balance. One of the methods we played with was the "victim > on the rear deck" rescue. Admittedly my boat was unladen and therefore > tippier than it would be while touring, but I was struck by just how > unstable the "victim" made my boat, even with their torso pressed to the > deck. And this was in calmish water. Of course, this may simply reflect my > limitations as a paddler. > > The prospect of bringing someone in through surf this way does not fill me > with delight. I'd be concerned the additional weight at the back would > cause the boat to broach very easily. (Although I suppose their legs > dragging in the water might act as "sea anchors", reducing the broaching > effect.) While I'm comfortable side-surfing with a brace, my head is above > water much of the time. Anyone with their body pressed to the rear deck is > going to have their head underwater a lot of the time - perhaps the whole > way into the beach - in even moderate waves. Ugly enough if you were in > good shape to begin with - utterly brutal if you were in bad shape from > cold. Then too, once you do start to side-surf, you are committed > until the > wave lets you go - you can't back off while your passenger takes a breath. > So that leaves paddling in with them on your rear deck, with the boat > facing out to sea. While I like playing in the surf, I find being surfed > backwards down the face of a wave is a very out-of-control, scary feeling. > And all that weight on the rear deck would make it far harder not to be > surfed backwards. > > So, what I am left with? One possibility would be to inflate my Sea-Seat > (I'd use a paddle float if I didn't have this). Just outside the > surf zone, > my passenger and I would get out of our boats, and swim far enough to one > side that we wouldn't mix it up with the kayaks in the surf zone. > Then we'd > join arms across the floatation and try to ride through the surf > as quickly > as possible. This idea assumes a few things: > That the victim is still able to assist at least moderately in their own > rescue. > That they are prepared to enter the water. > That the beach is big, rock-free and gradual enough that we and the boats > are likely to get in intact. > That I really would be noble enough to abandon, however temporarily, a > perfectly good boat. > > Great scenario, very thought-provoking, no easy and certain solution. > > Cheers, > Philip T. > > > **************************************** > Mountain Equipment Co-op > 1655 West 3rd Avenue, > Vancouver, BC, Canada V6J 1K1 > Tel: 640-732-1989 > Fax: 604-731-6483 > email: pid_at_mec.ca > > Visit our website at: http://www.mec.ca > ***************************************** > ****************************************************************** > ********* > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > ****************************************************************** > ********* > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dan Volker wrote: > > If you were faced with really terrible surf to enter, your best way in would > be with a good mask, fins and snorkel---I'm not saying it would always be > fun, but 12 footers are not much challenge in this manner---and this is easy > to store as emergency or fun to use type gear. As fas as dragging a nearly > unconscious person wth you, I'd do this with mask and fins LONG before I'd > try it on a kayak. [snip] This has been a great thread, and Dan's suggestion seems the one I'd feel most comfortable with. His method dispenses with the boat(s) -- which I think are an invitation to serious injury if the victim is incapacitated, *even slightly.* I have one caveat: negotiating large surf is not something to be attempted for the first time with a victim. Dan must have a lot of experience with big stuff, based on the detail in his answer. (Eons ago I did a lot of body surfing with fins, etc., in largish stuff.) Others have emphasized that serious lifeguarding skills are needed to assist a "dead weight" through surf. I'm sure Dan agrees with that, also. Those contemplating adding fins, mask, and snorkel to their rescue kit should build in a hundred hours or so of *focused* use under "battlefield" conditions. Even six-foot surf can really disorient newcomers -- fins and mask, or not. Thanks to Julio for starting this. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Here's my two cents: As a former Ocean City, Md. beach lifeguard, I want to stress that you HAVE to respect the Ocean. I've seen alot of dislocated shoulders connected to idiots trying to outrun a big wave! In my mind, there is only one safe way to come through heavy surf. Get out of the damn boat, and swim in by timing your approach carefully. I've done this lots of times carrying a real life victim at the end of a buoy. I could have done it almost as easily by strapping one of my arms across the victims body; placing them on my hip; and swimming in with a side stroke. You don't need a fancy mask or fins if you have a strong stroke. You will be through the surf in under two minutes. Anyway, no offense to Dan, but I would love to see a guy put on fins in really heavy surf. This is the key to getting through the surf: keep you eyes on the waves, NOT the shore. I feel much more comfortable in heavy surf (swimming) than I do in white water for one reason. Except in very confused, heavy August surf or storms, the sea is rhythmic. I can actually "feel" when a wave is coming if I'm looking at the shore just by the amount of time that has passed. When a big wave actually is hitting, there is only one thing to do: Turn the victim and yourself towards the wave, and dive deep underneath it. Of course, it is polite to tell the victim about this before the wave hits! I would just tell them (and this includes an 8 year old boy far off shore in confused, heavy seas) "take a deep breath, and go under water!". Of course, I never let go of the victim the entire time. Once the wave passes, you come up fast and swim like hell to get in before the next one hits. I would often end up body surfing in the last part, with the victim holding onto the buoy. In summary, in light surf, the victim can just hold onto the buoy, and I could tow him in. When a big mama hits, you HAVE to dive deep and get under it. Trust me, I did this professionally for two summers, and probably made about 15 real rescues (not the j.v. pool types!). You don't need fancy gear, just a strong stroke and a sense for timing. If you think you are going to be able to carry a victim through heavy surf on the back of your kayak, you are dreaming. Your kayak would suddenly get alot lighter after a big wave hits! Now a question for you all. I have paddled through the surf when it is relatively light on numerous occasions. However, I have a real fear of either going out, or coming in through big breakers. Am I the only one with this fear? My fear is that a wave will send me end over end, and my spine will snap like a twig. Don't laugh, I met a 30 year old guy confined to a wheelchair for life for this very reasons. Do you guys ever think about this problem? A sit upon wouldn't bother me. I can handle the surf, I just want to make sure I can fall off in a hurry! - Scott Ives Dan Volker wrote: > > If you were faced with really terrible surf to enter, your best way in would be with a good mask, fins and snorkel. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> > You don't need a fancy mask or fins if you have a strong stroke. You > will be through the surf in under two minutes. Anyway, no offense to > Dan, but I would love to see a guy put on fins in really heavy surf. > Scott, You get no arguement from me if you are already in a heavy surf line---there would be no time to put fins on...However, in the thread I was replying to, it sounded like the breaking surf was only a factor in the beach entry, and the ocean outside the surf line was relatively easy to paddle and remain stable in----some approaches are bad even though the overall ocean is not---it this scenario, the fins,mask and snorkel could get some of the less powerful swimmers through the surfline while carrying a limp buddy---no issue for you, but to the less powerful swimmer, a potentially major feat. And, mask fins and snorkel are a nice accessory for kayaks, as you never know when you will see an extrememly cool reef or some marine life you would like a closer look at. Regards, Dan > This is the key to getting through the surf: keep you eyes on the > waves, NOT the shore. I feel much more comfortable in heavy surf > (swimming) than I do in white water for one reason. Except in very > confused, heavy August surf or storms, the sea is rhythmic. I can > actually "feel" when a wave is coming if I'm looking at the shore just > by the amount of time that has passed. > > When a big wave actually is hitting, there is only one thing to do: > Turn the victim and yourself towards the wave, and dive deep underneath > it. Of course, it is polite to tell the victim about this before the > wave hits! I would just tell them (and this includes an 8 year old boy > far off shore in confused, heavy seas) "take a deep breath, and go under > water!". Of course, I never let go of the victim the entire time. > > Once the wave passes, you come up fast and swim like hell to get in > before the next one hits. I would often end up body surfing in the last > part, with the victim holding onto the buoy. > > In summary, in light surf, the victim can just hold onto the buoy, > and I could tow him in. When a big mama hits, you HAVE to dive deep and > get under it. Trust me, I did this professionally for two summers, and > probably made about 15 real rescues (not the j.v. pool types!). You > don't need fancy gear, just a strong stroke and a sense for timing. If > you think you are going to be able to carry a victim through heavy surf > on the back of your kayak, you are dreaming. Your kayak would suddenly > get alot lighter after a big wave hits! > > Now a question for you all. I have paddled through the surf when it > is relatively light on numerous occasions. However, I have a real fear > of either going out, or coming in through big breakers. Am I the only > one with this fear? My fear is that a wave will send me end over end, > and my spine will snap like a twig. Don't laugh, I met a 30 year old > guy confined to a wheelchair for life for this very reasons. Do you > guys ever think about this problem? A sit upon wouldn't bother me. I > can handle the surf, I just want to make sure I can fall off in a hurry! > > - Scott Ives > > Dan Volker wrote: > > > > If you were faced with really terrible surf to enter, your best > way in would be with a good mask, fins and snorkel. > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 11:04 PM 11/10/98 -0500, Scott Ives wrote: >> Now a question for you all. I have paddled through the surf when it >is relatively light on numerous occasions. However, I have a real fear >of either going out, or coming in through big breakers. Am I the only >one with this fear? My fear is that a wave will send me end over end, >and my spine will snap like a twig. Don't laugh, I met a 30 year old >guy confined to a wheelchair for life for this very reasons. Do you >guys ever think about this problem? A sit upon wouldn't bother me. I >can handle the surf, I just want to make sure I can fall off in a hurry! Scott, I have been slammed back onto the rear deck more than once and will not use any kayak in the surf that impedes my ability to lay back on the rear deck. This includes high volume designs where the rear cockpit coaming hits high on my back, high seatbacks and gear on the back deck. It also rules out carrying a "bail-out" waist pack. With proper technique, "getting slammed" should be quite rare. In my case it has always been from getting tired or lazy and having a large wave break on my chest. Generally you can time your passage through the surf zone to avoid this. If not, you can capsize and let your hull take the beating or become a needle and adopt a forward tuck position (kiss the deck) with the paddle held close to one side of the boat. This is an unstable position but with practice you can tuck and untuck very quickly and literally shed quite powerful waves. When capsized I instinctively tuck forward and hold the paddle tightly against the hull. There can be some strong turbulence at first and you don't want to lose the paddle. Novices to the surf zone often try to roll up too quickly. Assuming you have enough air in your lungs, it is usually best to "hang out" for a few moments for the turbulence to subside and then roll up. There are always exceptions though. Sometimes you can roll back up immediately by a slight pressure on the paddle depending on the conditions. This is a difficult skill to describe, with practice you will simply know the correct sensations that will either favor a roll or require some wait time. A sit-on-top is not a panacea in the surf. Most instances where you are forcefully slammed against the kayak deck happen much to quickly to bail out beforehand. If you do manage to "eject" keep in mind that while you are in the salt water "wash-cycle" your kayak is tumbling right in there beside you. Greg Stamer Orlando, Florida *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Great thread, but way too civil, so here goes.... Assuming you're outside the surf zone, would this be a case where you could deploy (dare I say it) sponsons on the victim's boat and maybe a sea anchor to keep it straight before trying to land? This might help in cases where the victim is so far gone that he can't keep his boat upright and/or you don't dare let him go into the water. Are there limits on the size of surf where this might work, and what would a surf landing with sponsons deployed be like? Larry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>Philip T. wrote... While I like playing in the surf, I find being surfed >backwards down the face of a wave is a very out-of-control, scary feeling. I find going in backwards offers me a whole lot more control over the waves, I find it easier to push over a big wave than try back paddle to avoid take off. Going backwards makes it so i am ready to take on the waves coming in...same as when going out... I started doing this a couple years ago, when loaded [the boat that is] and in isolated areas. I really took to it and do this all the time now... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I have done this scuba diving. I once had the surf go from 1-3' to 8-12' in the 2 hours my buddy and I were in the water (shallow dive and we were both low air consumption divers). Just as we surfaced, my buddy had major cramps in both legs. I had my buddy put his mask around his neck and regulator in his mouth. I then grabbed the back of his BC (bouyancy compensator) collar and towed him in. It was extreamly brutal. I kept kicking, screaming, crawling, etc., untill we were both on DRY sand. I was spent and my buddy was freaked out! If my buddy had lost the regulator or run out of air, then I might have had an unconscious or nonbreathing (possible full arest) victim on the beach and I did not have anything left to even be able to think of doing effective CPR. Each case will have to de decided individually, but if the surf is really bad and the victim is more than slightly hypothermic, I would radio for rescue and wait outside the surf zone. Better to wait for the Coast Guard with a hypothermic person than to have a person in full arest, hypothermic, trashed by the surf, surounded by exhausted friends on the beach,,,, and still needing rescue by professionals. There are no easy answers, and every situation is different. The only thing that is certain is that the survivors (if any) will have to live with the outcome, good or bad. Nobody (that I know) has ever said that going to sea was safe. michael dlv_at_gate.net wrote: > > If you were faced with really terrible surf to enter, your best way in would > be with a good mask, fins and snorkel---I'm not saying it would always be > fun, but 12 footers are not much challenge in this manner---and this is easy > to store as emergency or fun to use type gear. As fas as dragging a nearly > unconscious person wth you, I'd do this with mask and fins LONG before I'd > try it on a kayak. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Jusr remember that coming in with scuba gear is exponentially more difficult than with mask fins and snorkel---scuba divers have too much mass and drag to negotiate big waves. Set up like a freediver and waves are far easier. For 10 footers and over you would have to find a way to body surf the victim in with you----a new skill for us to attempt with a willing volunteer that can hold their breath well in case you mess up a few times :-) Regards, Dan Volker > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of Michael > Neverdosky > Sent: Saturday, November 07, 1998 3:13 AM > To: paddlewise > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] landing a victim through surf > > > I have done this scuba diving. > I once had the surf go from 1-3' to 8-12' in the 2 hours my buddy and I > were > in the water (shallow dive and we were both low air consumption divers). > Just as we surfaced, my buddy had major cramps in both legs. > I had my buddy put his mask around his neck and regulator in his mouth. > I then grabbed the back of his BC (bouyancy compensator) collar and towed > him in. > > It was extreamly brutal. > I kept kicking, screaming, crawling, etc., untill we were both on DRY > sand. > > I was spent and my buddy was freaked out! > If my buddy had lost the regulator or run out of air, then I might have > had > an unconscious or nonbreathing (possible full arest) victim on the beach > and > I did not have anything left to even be able to think of doing effective > CPR. > > Each case will have to de decided individually, but if the surf is really > bad > and the victim is more than slightly hypothermic, I would radio for rescue > and > wait outside the surf zone. > Better to wait for the Coast Guard with a hypothermic person than to have > a > person in full arest, hypothermic, trashed by the surf, surounded by > exhausted > friends on the beach,,,, and still needing rescue by professionals. > > There are no easy answers, and every situation is different. > The only thing that is certain is that the survivors (if any) will have to > live > with the outcome, good or bad. > > Nobody (that I know) has ever said that going to sea was safe. > > michael > > dlv_at_gate.net wrote: > > > > If you were faced with really terrible surf to enter, your best > way in would > > be with a good mask, fins and snorkel---I'm not saying it would > always be > > fun, but 12 footers are not much challenge in this manner---and > this is easy > > to store as emergency or fun to use type gear. As fas as > dragging a nearly > > unconscious person wth you, I'd do this with mask and fins LONG > before I'd > > try it on a kayak. > ****************************************************************** > ********* > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > ****************************************************************** > ********* > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
A most interesting discussion with no easy answers! A couple of thoughts: I agree that ropes are not part of the answer in surf. No I havent tried it, nor will I. Ever. No thank you! I think that if the ColdOne can hang onto a boat's bow, it would be possible to back him into shore. This wouldnt be the quickest solution, and it would depend on the surf conditions. If there is a potential for back-surfing, it wouldnt be a good idea. (I did my first reverse-pitchpole in surf last week. I have visions of the victim being catapulted high into the air, or impaled on the bow). But if there is potential for backsurfing you are in really deep s#$%_at_ anyway no matter how you bring him/her in. However if the surf is such that back-surfing is not a problem, backing in might give the paddler more control over broaching than coming in head first. Especially if the paddler is not experienced in surf, as most inexperienced paddlers are far more comfortable when facing the waves. However...I have tried hanging onto a kayak end with waves breaking over me, and it is extremely difficult. If a person is weakened by hypothermia, or doesnt have good upper body strength to begin with, it probably wont work. In fact, I dont even like hanging onto the cockpit in surf because I'm afraid of ending up landward of the boat and having it come down on my head (umm yess, I'm wearing a helmet of course...ummm yeah). I rarely exit the boat anymore, but I am still wary of hanging onto it in any fashion in dumping waves. No easy answers. Of course the absolute best answer is prevention. People should find a safe place to practice in surf. I have often wanted to practice surf rescues, but every time I get into the surf I always forget because I'm having too much fun. ;-) But that is important too, as the skills learned in surf will help prevent such an accident from occurring in the first place. Thanks to this thread though, next year (I only surf when the temp is above 35-40 F. ;-) I will practice assisted surf-rescues as well. I'm not quite sure how though-the scenario is a very dangerous one with the potential to create more victims, even in practice. Wayne *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Larry wrote; > >Assuming you're outside the surf zone, would this be a case where you could >deploy (dare I say it) sponsons on the victim's boat and maybe a sea anchor >to keep it straight before trying to land? This might help in cases where >the victim is so far gone that he can't keep his boat upright and/or you >don't dare let him go into the water. Are there limits on the size of surf >where this might work, and what would a surf landing with sponsons deployed >be like? This would be a good use for sponsons or, better yet a wide boat with high dynamic stability. The key element would be the sea anchor. Without it, holding the boat normal to the waves the risk of recapsize in the breaking waves. Of course, you know me. I would ask what the hell you were doing out there anyway. :-) >From my vantage point on the beach I will be happy to shout out instructions. ;-) Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 98-11-09 06:10:29 EST, 735769_at_ican.net writes: << This would be a good use for sponsons or, better yet a wide boat with high dynamic stability. >> Since I'm a PaddleWiser of the post-sponson debacle, was wondering if anyone ever did any testing of these auxilliary flotation devices in surf? With the impact of surf on handling of sea kayaks in general, it would seem like you'd have a very good chance of having these things yanked off pretty easily --- or, worse yet, having one yanked off leaving the boat --- with or without "high dynamic stability" --- in a pretty permanent 90 degree angle of bank. Not the easiest thing to get out of! If you lost one, did the other tend to go, as well --- in other words, were they linked together so if one went, the other automatically did too? I have seen well-secured deck bags ripped off sea kayaks in moderate surf, and my suspicion is that the s-word devices would not fare any better. Any data, experience? Oh, by the way, John --- we're not in this for real! You're right. None of us would <ever> get into a state like this! We're just cyber-surfing. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Jack wrote; ->Since I'm a PaddleWiser of the post-sponson debacle, was wondering if anyone >ever did any testing of these auxilliary flotation devices in surf? With the >impact of surf on handling of sea kayaks in general, it would seem like you'd >have a very good chance of having these things yanked off pretty easily --- >or, worse yet, having one yanked off leaving the boat --- with or without >"high dynamic stability" --- in a pretty permanent 90 degree angle of bank. >Not the easiest thing to get out of! If you lost one, did the other tend to >go, as well --- in other words, were they linked together so if one went, the >other automatically did too? I have seen well-secured deck bags ripped off >sea kayaks in moderate surf, and my suspicion is that the s-word devices would >not fare any better. Any data, experience? I did do some testing of sponsons. I think my post to Paddlewise can be found in the archives. They did not come off in any of our tests. I suppose I could imagine conditions where they might be torn off since they are fastened to deck hardware and a boat rolling about in the surf really does get banged about a lot. Anything that can break a boat can surely dislodge some gear or fittings. To me the problems were not in their coming off but in getting them on in breaking waves and that old bugaboo, putting too much trust in a life saving device to get you out of what your ego or stupidity got you into. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Scott Ives, <snip> > Now a question for you all. I have paddled through the surf when it >is relatively light on numerous occasions. However, I have a real fear >of either going out, or coming in through big breakers. Am I the only >one with this fear? My fear is that a wave will send me end over end, >and my spine will snap like a twig. Don't laugh, I met a 30 year old >guy confined to a wheelchair for life for this very reasons. Do you >guys ever think about this problem? A sit upon wouldn't bother me. I >can handle the surf, I just want to make sure I can fall off in a hurry! > Scott, your rescue experience demonstrates that swimming is a practical approach for surf landings. however for that technique to work, kayakers need to be able to swim. My local paddle club puts its emphasis on paddling gear and rolling. the subject of swimming is rarely discussed... indeed being able to roll is the hallmark of advanced paddlers and the entry ticket to paddling with 'the guys.' indeed there are some advanced paddlers who can not swim. i wonder if swimming skills are an important part of kayaking... Are swimming skills a part of kayak training programs that offer certifications? Not that i put emphasis on certificates, but i wonder what importance those groups place on swimming. bye bye bliven *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Larry Bliven wrote, in response to Scott: > your [Scott's] rescue experience demonstrates that > swimming is a practical approach for surf landings. > > however for that technique to work, kayakers need to be able to swim. My > local paddle club puts its emphasis on paddling gear and rolling. the > subject of swimming is rarely discussed... [snip] i wonder > if swimming skills are an important part of kayaking... > > Are swimming skills a part of kayak training programs that offer > certifications? Not that i put emphasis on certificates, but i wonder what > importance those groups place on swimming. Larry's post made me think about my "head set" when paddling on the ocean. I now realize that my comfort in paddling just outside the surf zone is attributable to my high degree of confidence that, worst comes to worst, I can swim to shore, through big surf if I have to. What I had not thought about, until Larry's post, was that negotiating big surf probably terrifies most people, just as serious whitewater terrifies me. Good illustration of how we each have our own set of blinders. Re: should kayakers be able to swim WELL? Absolutely. That's the last line of defense -- not that it's much use well offshore. But, because most of us paddle within 0.5 miles of a shoreline, swimming could be the last resort. Aaah, well, not in those 5 meter waves on Georgian Bay, I guess, hey John W? -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Alright folks, I'm getting back on my soapbox! Larry Bliven spoke of good kayakers that couldn't swim. I think this a receipe for disaster. When I guarded at the beach, we would occasionally have to swim out and wake up tourists who fell asleep on rafts. They thought they were in their local pool! Can you imagine if we let them wake up about 3 miles offshore? The point is that we must have great respect for the sea (or ANY body of water - even a pool). You just can't use a kayak, raft or anything else as a crutch. I think it is a terrible idea for anyone to go out farther than they can swim in on any boat (or at least tread water for several hours). Yes, I know that some eskimos (not p.c. - Aelutians?) couldn't swim - but that water was below freezing. And they went out to get food to survive, not for recreation! I can roll (ok, about 75% of the time on my good side), and I can reenter and roll/or climb back in with a paddle float. But I wouldn't be out there if I couldn't swim well. A kayaker who can't swim well needs to get his priorities worked out, and take an adult swim class. Or he/she should stay very close to shore ... but even then he risks becoming a fatality. Your milage may vary! - Scott *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> The point is that we must have great respect for the sea (or ANY body of > water - even a pool). You just can't use a kayak, raft or anything else > as a crutch. I think it is a terrible idea for anyone to go out farther > than they can swim in on any boat (or at least tread water for several > hours). Now you are going overboard. The purpose of a boat is to get you to places you can't swim or walk to. I suppose with a PFD I could swim 6 miles; but that is not going to stop me from going to spots that are 6 miles from shore. Routinely Texans have to go 10-20 miles offshore to get to clear water, sometimes even much further than that. I can get there in a kayak. I can fish, and I can come home; without spending hundreds of dollars on a stupid fishing trip. To limit yourself to only near-coastal waters in a boat that was designed to hunt seals in freezing, big water, doesn't seem very logical. Richard Walker Houston, TX http://www.neosoft.com/~rww/kayak_log.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Richard, The last part of my tirade dealt with being able to tread water. My own personal "survivalist" rule is that I would not like to go out further than I could return to land if need be under my own power. I might take a 30 mile kayak trip, but I personally would prefer to stay no more than 1-2 miles off shore. I know where are supposed to stay with the boat, but what if a boat were to crack and sink? This might be my own personal lack of courage, but I do not want to be 20 miles off shore in a kayak! This is the reason that cruising boats carry inflatable lifeboats bigger than our kayaks! Just in case ... I'm just giving my personal preference. I applaud the fact that you can go 20 miles off shore without spending the big $$ on a fishing boat. I personally would never do it. But I wouldn't kayak to Hawaii from California (didn't Gillete do it in an Arluk?), or cross the Atlantic in a Klepper either. To each his own. I'm just saying that when we leave our safety zone, the risks rise accordingly. Happy fishing! Scott R. Walker wrote: > > > The point is that we must have great respect for the sea (or ANY body of > > water - even a pool). You just can't use a kayak, raft or anything else > > as a crutch. I think it is a terrible idea for anyone to go out farther > > than they can swim in on any boat (or at least tread water for several > > hours). > > Now you are going overboard. The purpose of a boat is to get you > to places you can't swim or walk to. I suppose with a PFD I could > swim 6 miles; but that is not going to stop me from going to spots > that are 6 miles from shore. Routinely Texans have to go 10-20 > miles offshore to get to clear water, sometimes even much further > than that. I can get there in a kayak. I can fish, and I can come > home; without spending hundreds of dollars on a stupid fishing trip. > To limit yourself to only near-coastal waters in a boat that was > designed to hunt seals in freezing, big water, doesn't seem very > logical. > > Richard Walker > Houston, TX > http://www.neosoft.com/~rww/kayak_log.html > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** -- MZ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Julio brings up an excellent point. It's funny how we forget the obvious with time. As a beach lifeguard I obviously didn't have a PFD on. The lack of a PFD also increased my diving ability. Has anyone tried to dive under a wave with a PFD on? What happens? Julio, I don't think I would ever have a poor swimmer take off a PFD. Even if he breaks something, he has a better chance of surving with a PFD. Now for a good swimmer like myself, I'm not sure. I think I would be better off in the surf without one (ie. diving under waves), I've been conditioned to think its blasphemy to ever take my PFD off! With respect to my fear of snapping my spine - I am referring to the wave forcing my boat end over end -- like a cartwheel. In such a situation the danger zone is the lower spine so a helmut would have no effect -- ditto with a back brace --- this would probably make the problem worse. I'm no doctor, but the fear is that with the lower body firmly stuck in the kayak the upper body would be leveraged forward (or backward in the flip) violently, thereby snapping the spine near the lower vertebra. As I mentioned before, I unfortunatley met a guy who suffered this accident and will be in a wheelchair the rest of his life. If one could exit quick enough (and this is the advantage of a sit upon kayak), this problem would be avoided. The body has a much better chance of not suffering a back injury if you are not leveraged un-naturally in a kayak. However, is the split second it takes to go end over end, there would be no time to get out of the skirt. This problem only concerns me in rough surf. Like many of you, I have surfed in small waves without any problem ... and yes, it is great fun to ride one in all the way into the beach! But if the surf is big, I wet exit, hold onto the back rope handle on my kayak, and let the boat pull me in. There is an added advantate of this approach. If there are swimmers around, they invariably get right in front of your boat without looking. By holding onto the back of the boat, I can create drag and slow the boat down enough to keep from harpooning a fat tourist. Unless of course, walrus season is open. Then I sharpen the bow of my kayak, stealthly approach a rotund tourist, and zoom in at maximum speed. Sorry, bad joke. - Scott Julio MacWilliams wrote in response to the following comment: > > > When a big wave actually is hitting, there is only one thing to do: > > Turn the victim and yourself towards the wave, and dive deep underneath > > it. Of course, it is polite to tell the victim about this before the > > wave hits! I would just tell them (and this includes an 8 year old boy > > far off shore in confused, heavy seas) "take a deep breath, and go under > > water!". Of course, I never let go of the victim the entire time. > > This is difficult with a PFD. Would you recommend taking it off to > swim through surf? > > > > > Now a question for you all. I have paddled through the surf when it > > is relatively light on numerous occasions. However, I have a real fear > > of either going out, or coming in through big breakers. Am I the only > > one with this fear? My fear is that a wave will send me end over end, > > and my spine will snap like a twig. > > - Scott Ives > > Please expand. Do you fear hitting the sand with your back? > Or a sudden neck movement that would break you cervicals? > > A PFD and a helmet should protect your back and skull. A rigid > back plate in a PFD similar to hockey equipment would be a > a nice improvement. > > - Julio -- MZ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 11/11/98 5:45:16 PM Pacific Standard Time, ssives_at_erols.com writes: << Larry Bliven spoke of good kayakers that couldn't swim. I think this a receipe for disaster. >> Well now, we need to make up our minds! If one ALWAYS wears their pfd as many folks on this list preach, then WHY would one need to know how to swim???? Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 11/11/1998 9:57:19 PM EST, ssives_at_erols.com writes: << Now for a good swimmer like myself, >> Is the rule "he who judges himself a fool" still in effect? John *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 11/11/1998 10:47:26 PM EST, KiAyker_at_aol.com writes: << Well now, we need to make up our minds! If one ALWAYS wears their pfd as many folks on this list preach, then WHY would one need to know how to swim???? >> Swimming is how you move around in water when you can't touch the bottom with your feet! No can swim, no can move. Duhhhh!!! Oh silly me! I Forgot! The lifeguard will come out and save me. Duhhh! John *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 11/11/1998 11:52:43 PM EST, gstamer_at_magicnet.net writes: << At 11:04 PM 11/10/98 -0500, Scott Ives wrote: >> Now a question for you all. I have paddled through the surf when it >is relatively light on numerous occasions. However, I have a real fear >of either going out, or coming in through big breakers. Am I the only >one with this fear? My fear is that a wave will send me end over end, >and my spine will snap like a twig. Don't laugh, I met a 30 year old >guy confined to a wheelchair for life for this very reasons. Do you >guys ever think about this problem? A sit upon wouldn't bother me. I >can handle the surf, I just want to make sure I can fall off in a hurry! Scott, I have been slammed back onto the rear deck more than once and will not use any kayak in the surf that impedes my ability to lay back on the rear deck. This includes high volume designs where the rear cockpit coaming hits high on my back, high seatbacks and gear on the back deck. It also rules out carrying a "bail-out" waist pack. With proper technique, "getting slammed" should be quite rare. In my case it has always been from getting tired or lazy and having a large wave break on my chest. Generally you can time your passage through the surf zone to avoid this. If not, you can capsize and let your hull take the beating or become a needle and adopt a forward tuck position (kiss the deck) with the paddle held close to one side of the boat. This is an unstable position but with practice you can tuck and untuck very quickly and literally shed quite powerful waves. When capsized I instinctively tuck forward and hold the paddle tightly against the hull. There can be some strong turbulence at first and you don't want to lose the paddle. Novices to the surf zone often try to roll up too quickly. Assuming you have enough air in your lungs, it is usually best to "hang out" for a few moments for the turbulence to subside and then roll up. There are always exceptions though. Sometimes you can roll back up immediately by a slight pressure on the paddle depending on the conditions. This is a difficult skill to describe, with practice you will simply know the correct sensations that will either favor a roll or require some wait time. A sit-on-top is not a panacea in the surf. Most instances where you are forcefully slammed against the kayak deck happen much to quickly to bail out beforehand. If you do manage to "eject" keep in mind that while you are in the salt water "wash-cycle" your kayak is tumbling right in there beside you. Greg Stamer Orlando, Florida >> Frst, I know very little about big waves and sea kayaks. I recently watched Maliquai (sp?) the Greenland Kayak Champion at age 16 demonstrate Greenland Kayak Techniques in his seal skin Kayak at the Southwestern Canoe Rendevous near Houston, Texas. He demonstrated over 30 different rolls or variations of the roll. Some were absolutely amazing. One I particularly remember was he layed over against the water, hull parallel and toward the oncomming wave. (well, not actually because there are no waves in Lake Raven at Huntsville State Park) but the idea was to lay over and let the wave crash over you instead of into you., thereby saving both you and the boat. Does this help in the discussion going on? Does it make sence? I don't know enough to pass judgement. John LeBlanc *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
A bit like highsiding a motorcycle. It spits you off and then jumps on top of you for a few tumbles. Most motorcycle racers get more injures from the motorcycle hitting them than from them hitting the ground. The problem I see with the 'bailout' method is that you need to bail before it is needed. If you wait until there is no choice, you are much more likely to be injured by the kayak than by the surf itself. To work well, you need to bail before it is needed and get away from the boat. Another one of those 'judgement' things. :-) I don't know about anybody else, but I learn judgement from experience. Experience is what I get when I don't get what I want. :-)( michael gstamer_at_magicnet.net wrote: > A sit-on-top is not a panacea in the surf. Most instances where you are > forcefully slammed against the kayak deck happen much to quickly to bail > out beforehand. If you do manage to "eject" keep in mind that while you are > in the salt water "wash-cycle" your kayak is tumbling right in there beside > you. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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