Ralph Diaz wrote: <<At the point it hit me. Why bother worrying about where to store a boat in Manhattan? Why bother learning how to roll (which I was working on)? Why bother with all of that when a folding single would do just fine. So, within a few months I bought a single Klepper.>> I've heard this statement before, that it isn't necessary to learn a roll if you paddle a folding kayak, and I never have quite resolved it. Is this because folding kayaks are harder to roll in, or some other reason, such as they a more stable platform for re-entry? Thanks, Bob *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Lets see, its been a couple weeks since rolling has come up on the list, so it must be time to start up the argument again .... In a recent post, Bob asked: I've heard this statement before, that it isn't necessary to learn a roll if you paddle a folding kayak, and I never have quite resolved it. Is this because folding kayaks are harder to roll in, or some other reason, such as they a more stable platform for re-entry? I have a Feathercraft Khatsalano and I roll it all the time. I have also played around with a K1 and believe it would be easilly rollable as well (though I didin't try at the time). Most folding boats are very wide and might be hard to roll, but I haven't put this to the test. I've rolled many boats and as long as I fit them, I haven't found a single-kayak I couldn't roll (not to say they don't exist --- they probably do. I just haven't tried them yet). There are people whoose opions I respect who believe folding boats are inherently more stable and therefore it is not necssary to learn to roll. I've heard it said that they are inherently more seaworthy and less likely to capsize, so the need for a roll is greatly diminished. I've also heard it said that these wide boats are easier to re-enter once you have capsized, so once again, the need for a roll is diminished. While the above statements are true and in the right context imply that the ability to roll isn't essential, they don't establish the case that a user of a folding single-kayak shouldn't learn how to roll. Bad things happen when conditions deteriorate, and the ability to respond to "bad things" without having to exit your boat, is of tremendous value. If you've been following this list at all, you've heard all the arguments for and against a paddler investing the time to learn how to roll. This can quickly turn into a "religous war" and I don't think we need to go over all that again. But I would be interested. How many of you out there paddle foldable boats and know how to roll them? I can't be the only one. Are there rollers out there who have verified that its really that much harder to roll a folding boat? --Tim > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert L. Thomasson [SMTP:BobThomasson_at_compuserve.com] > Sent: Sunday, February 07, 1999 7:04 PM > To: Paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: [Paddlewise] Folding Kayak Roll > > Ralph Diaz wrote: > > <<At the point it hit me. Why bother worrying about where to store a boat > in Manhattan? Why bother learning how to roll (which I was working > on)? Why bother with all of that when a folding single would do just > fine. So, within a few months I bought a single Klepper.>> > > > Thanks, > > Bob > ************************************************************************** > * > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > ************************************************************************** > * *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 03:24 PM 2/11/99 -0800, you wrote: >But I would be interested. How many of you out there paddle foldable boats >and know how to roll them? I can't be the only one. Are there rollers out >there who have verified that its really that much harder to roll a folding >boat? > >--Tim I don't own a folding boat, but have had a few opportunities to paddle and roll them over the years. My impression was that there's much the same sort of difference between rolling a folding boat vs a hard shell sea kayak as there is between rolling a hard shell sea kayak vs a white water kayak. It requires increased care in the set-up, a "non-diving" sweep, and an accurately timed hip flick with more "body English" than either a hard shell or white water boat. That said, once you get a folding boat (or any beamier kayak) up to the critical point, it pulls itself up and over sooner and with greater force than narrower boats do. The other point of difference I've noticed is that making yourself one with the boat, so that powerful sweep and hip flick does more than simply crank you out of your upside down craft, requires more care in a folder. Thigh straps, as used by white water canoeists, help greatly. Cheers, Philip T. N49°16' W123°08' "The opinions expressed in this posting are not necessarily those of my employer, or indeed, of any sentient being." *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Product Information Department wrote: > roll them over the years. My impression was that there's much the same sort > of difference between rolling a folding boat vs a hard shell sea kayak as > there is between rolling a hard shell sea kayak vs a white water kayak. It > requires increased care in the set-up, a "non-diving" sweep, and an > accurately timed hip flick with more "body English" than either a hard > shell or white water boat. That said, once you get a folding boat (or any > beamier kayak) up to the critical point, it pulls itself up and over sooner > and with greater force than narrower boats do. > The other point of difference I've noticed is that making yourself one with > the boat, so that powerful sweep and hip flick does more than simply crank > you out of your upside down craft, requires more care in a folder. Thigh > straps, as used by white water canoeists, help greatly. Philip's words are right on about rolling a folding kayak. It requires somewhat more in general such as a Pawlata extended paddle roll and a fairly good fit in the boat with hip and knee contact. Some of the boats are easier than others, namely the Feathercraft singles where you are in a better braced position with your knees under the deck. Also those boats are narrow than other single foldables by a few inches. Any boat can be rolled if you can extend your paddle far out enough as a lever. The real issue is not whether you can roll a folding kayak...you can certainly do so as what I term a circus act...but rather whether it is a viable and reliable self-rescue routine in real life situations and not just in a pool or on demo beach. I don't think it is except maybe for the Khatsalano. Speaking of rolling, as I read the Who We Are series of bios from the group, I am struck by the number of people in hardshells who don't roll. I would be happy to stand corrected on this, but eyeballing the responses it would look like maybe half of the hardshellers on the list do not roll. I'm reminded of the time I was sitting down in the Delmarva Paddlers Retreat a few years ago and at dinner a show of hands was made regarding who rolled, who had bombproof rolls, who had just learned to roll, etc. The figures were high because this was a dedicated group...I think 25 per cent or so claimed a bombproof roll and I believe it; and some 70 per cent or more could roll. My guess is that if this is what a highly dedicated group can do that then the more general population of paddlers is well below these kinds of abilities. Just a seat-of-the-pants observation from being around a lot of different people from different parts of the country: most hardshell sea kayakers do not know how to roll and that those with bombproof rolls are in the low single digits in percentage terms. There is no question that a bombproof roll is the best thing to have or even a pretty reliable one to try if in a predicament. It is always best to stay in your boat...no water to empty out, less exposure to hypothermia, no loss of gear, conserves energy, etc. But the facts of life are that so many sea paddlers cannot roll or not with any reliability that it is important to stress other measures. This starts with good judgment about conditions, plotting out the most protective course, knowing when to back off or wait. And if things do go wrong, getting back into your boat quickly with the least hassle. Or you can start by being in a boat that is less like to be toppled over and if it is capsized offers a reliable re-entry platform with the least amount of setup for getting back in. That description covers three breeds of boats: sit-on-tops, inflatables and folding kayaks. (There are some tippy SOTs and folding kayaks; I don't think there are any tippy inflatables.) ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 10:58 AM 2/12/99 -0800, you wrote: The real issue is not whether you can roll a folding kayak...you >can certainly do so as what I term a circus act...but rather whether it >is a viable and reliable self-rescue routine in real life situations and >not just in a pool or on demo beach. >as I read the Who We Are series of bios from the >group, I am struck by the number of people in hardshells who don't >roll. I would be happy to stand corrected on this, but eyeballing the >responses it would look like maybe half of the hardshellers on the list >do not roll. > >at dinner a show of hands was made regarding >who rolled, who had bombproof rolls, who had just learned to roll, etc. >The figures were high because this was a dedicated group...I think 25 >per cent or so claimed a bombproof roll and I believe it; and some 70 >per cent or more could roll. My guess is that if this is what a highly >dedicated group can do that then the more general population of paddlers >is well below these kinds of abilities. Just a seat-of-the-pants >observation from being around a lot of different people from different >parts of the country: most hardshell sea kayakers do not know how to >roll and that those with bombproof rolls are in the low single digits in >percentage terms. Hi Ralph, I completely agree with you about the desirability of a roll for much sea-kayaking, and the utter necessity of it for "extreme" sea kayaking. Nevertheless, as I've noted before, by conservatively choosing time and place, it would be possible to paddle a lifetime without ever capsizing, if you're willing to live within the restrictions that places on you. I also think you're probably right that most sea kayakers cannot roll. However, some thoughts about your "survey": As pollsters know, much depends on the terms you use in asking the question. "Bombproof" might be construed to mean "Nothing the ocean and weather could ever throw at me could stop me from rolling"-not a claim many paddlers of much experience would make. Maybe the percentage would have been higher if you had defined bombproof as "I can roll in any conditions I will ever find myself at sea in." I've become more conservative in rating my roll over the years, partially as a result of some spinal problems, but also because I've been at sea in wilder conditions, and been humbled by it. So I now refer to my roll as "reliable" or "strong" rather than "bombproof". I suspect there could well be a similar lock-step with your poll sample: as high-end paddlers, their skill level is high, but with this greater experience has come greater awareness of just what the sea can do, so their "self-rating" stays the same or possibly even declines a bit. Cheers, Philip T. N49°16' W123°08' "The opinions expressed in this posting are not necessarily those of my employer, or indeed, of any sentient being." *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
As I posted here a few months ago, I rolled my Feathercraft K1 at the end of the 1998 season (my first season). I did it fairly easily (my friends who are struggling are bit miffed at me for that :-) ). I have to disagree about the "hip flick", however. Actually I don't believe there is any such thing as a "hip flick" and I really hate the term. If I am coming up on the right side (starboard for you purists), I drive my right knee toward my chest, mentally trying to pull the boat underneath me. That, and KEEPING THE HEAD DOWN 'till last make it work. I did it if pretty effortlessly three times on the day I did it. I discovered that I really like rough conditions, so while my K1 might be more stable then and hard shell, I still want to have that roll. This year I'll work on getting on both sides and making it bomb proof. Milo -----Original Message----- From: Product Information Department <pid_at_mec.ca> To: Mattson, Timothy G <timothy.g.mattson_at_intel.com> Cc: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 7:18 PM Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Folding Kayak Roll At 03:24 PM 2/11/99 -0800, you wrote: >But I would be interested. How many of you out there paddle foldable boats >and know how to roll them? I can't be the only one. Are there rollers out >there who have verified that its really that much harder to roll a folding >boat? > >--Tim I don't own a folding boat, but have had a few opportunities to paddle and roll them over the years. My impression was that there's much the same sort of difference between rolling a folding boat vs a hard shell sea kayak as there is between rolling a hard shell sea kayak vs a white water kayak. It requires increased care in the set-up, a "non-diving" sweep, and an accurately timed hip flick with more "body English" than either a hard shell or white water boat. That said, once you get a folding boat (or any beamier kayak) up to the critical point, it pulls itself up and over sooner and with greater force than narrower boats do. The other point of difference I've noticed is that making yourself one with the boat, so that powerful sweep and hip flick does more than simply crank you out of your upside down craft, requires more care in a folder. Thigh straps, as used by white water canoeists, help greatly. Cheers, Philip T. N49°16' W123°08' "The opinions expressed in this posting are not necessarily those of my employer, or indeed, of any sentient being." *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 08:59 PM 2/11/99 -0500, Rene wrote: >I have to disagree about the "hip flick", however. Actually I don't believe there is any such >thing as a "hip flick" and I really hate the term. If I am coming up on the >right side (starboard for you purists), I drive my right knee toward my >chest, mentally trying to pull the boat underneath me. That, and KEEPING >THE HEAD DOWN 'till last make it work. I did it if pretty effortlessly >three times on the day I did it. > In response to my posting: > there's much the same sort of difference between rolling a folding boat vs a hard shell sea kayak as >there is between rolling a hard shell sea kayak vs a white water kayak. It >requires increased care in the set-up, a "non-diving" sweep, and an >accurately timed hip flick with more "body English" than either a hard >shell or white water boat. Hi Rene, Very interesting. I've always known about the importance of locking my knees under the deck, but what you're describing is different. Well, this old dog is always willing to learn new tricks. Intuitively it makes a lot of sense, and sounds like it would be smooth and "zen-like", like a good lay-back roll. I'm looking forward to trying it. If it works for me, I can see advantages: it doesn't require a sudden, explosive effort (and I definitely have more slow-twitch muscles than fast-twitch muscles), it would be easier on the back, and it would use the ab muscles which I'm trying to keep in shape with sit-ups even when I'm not paddling. Cheers, Philip T. N49°16' W123°08' "The opinions expressed in this posting are not necessarily those of my employer, or indeed, of any sentient being." *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 2/12/99 12:00:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com writes: << And if things do go wrong, getting back into your boat quickly with the least hassle. Or you can start by being in a boat that is less like to be toppled over and if it is capsized offers a reliable re-entry platform with the least amount of setup for getting back in. That description covers three breeds of boats: sit-on-tops, inflatables and folding kayaks. >> Ralph, is it your point that folding kayaks are safer and less likley to need a roll because they are less likely to capsize, easier to re-enter than a hardshell or both? Only having done rescues in hard shells I would think a foldable would be tougher to re-enter, just simply because of a lack of bulk heads and the danger of swamping. Also I would be curious about your view on sponsons making it easier or not significantly impacting a roll. I would think if they help keep a boat upright they would also "help" keep a boat upside down. I did not realize that the Khatsalano was designed to be operated without sponsons. I know the K-1 and Light and the Raid 2 use sponsons. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
TcSqd_at_aol.com wrote: > Ralph, is it your point that folding kayaks are safer and less likley to need > a roll because they are less likely to capsize, easier to re-enter than a > hardshell or both? Only having done rescues in hard shells I would think a > foldable would be tougher to re-enter, just simply because of a lack of bulk > heads and the danger of swamping. A couple of observations here: 1. Anyone who goes out in a folding kayak without air flotation bags filling most of the underdeck fore and aft section might as well go around with a hole in the hull. The same goes for hardshells without bulkheads and plastic kayaks with bulkheads. A folding kayak will float with sufficient freeboard for emptying the boat only if it has such airbags. Built in sponsons alone are not enough. 2. Folding kayaks do benefit from having airtubes along their sides in the sense that having flotation there keeps the boat stable even when water is sloshing around inside. Unlike a hardshell in which the cockpit is flooded and should be emptied before moving on or it will be very unstable, a folding kayak will move along nicely with a flooded cockpit (need those end airbags though). Try it and you will see the difference between a flooded hardshell and a flooded folding kayak. 3. The folding ones are quite stable and you can depend to a certain degree on that to see you through situations. And if you do capsize (anything can go over) it offers a much more stable re-entry platform than a hardshell. So you can get back in without a paddle float except in the tippier ones. > > Also I would be curious about your view on sponsons making it easier or not > significantly impacting a roll. I would think if they help keep a boat upright > they would also "help" keep a boat upside down. I did not realize that the > Khatsalano was designed to be operated without sponsons. I know the K-1 and > Light and the Raid 2 use sponsons. In ordinary paddling in most folding kayaks, the sponsoned part of the boat is not touching the water as it is high up. However, if the boat is upside down, the boat does rest on the sponsons. To a degree there is resistance to re-submerging the boat because that means driving a sponson underwater. Again, you have to try it too see the relative resistance. It is not like sinking a balloon but toward that phenomenon. The Khats has one version in which you can use or not use the sponsons. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> But I would be interested. How many of you out there paddle foldable boats > and know how to roll them? I can't be the only one. Are there rollers out > there who have verified that its really that much harder to roll a folding > boat? > I have a NautiRaid I don't think it can be rolled. Maybe you can flip it, but I don't think anyone will be able to roll it. Just my thoughts. ;-) _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free _at_yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
When I got my first Feathercraft K-1 in about 1987 and was ready to go solo to the south China coast for a few weeks, it was obvious that I had to see how this kayak and I got along in lots of difficult situations. Rolling was the first test. Two of us used a regular western screw roll, landing face up on the back deck at the end of each roll. A friend and I went to a pool, inflated the integral sponsons, put on the spray deck and tried to roll the kayak. I screwed myself right out on my first try. I am well less than 5 feet high and didn't realize how much knee power it would take to keep myself in the kayak. On the second try I rolled up perfectly - no extra padding, just some "knee awareness." We next each tried a roll with the spray deck off, with the boat 1/4 full of water, 1/3 full, then 3/4 full. Every roll worked perfectly, except that we, just as in a loaded hard shell kayak, needed to slow down the roll as more water inside the kayak caused friction with the skin as the skin turned. Finally, we both sat on the ends of the kayak, simulating lots of internal weight, and splashed all the water we could in the almost underwater kayak. Again each of us rolled it up just fine. Later I tried unloaded rolls in fairly rough water, with no difficulty. We learned or confirmed: 1. Learn how to get a roll-tight fit with a kayak before you need to roll it. 2. Even a person hardly big enough for a cockpit can apply knee power to create a secure fit. 3. Try rolling under different load conditons to know what to expect (a slower roll in this case). 4. Of course, have an efficient roll to begin with! BTW the trip to China was great and, no, these boats (K1 and K2 double) are solid enough that we have never had to roll one in real conditions in over 150 days of fully loaded, expedition paddling, some in hellaciously rough conditions. But, yes, I have had to brace in big waves and knowing how to lock in definitely "saved several days" for me. Joanne Turner -- Southwind Kayak Center, Inc. 17855 Sky Park Circle #A, Irvine, CA 92614 U.S.A. 949-261-0200 or 800-SOUTHWIND (800-768-8494) info_at_southwindkayaks.com doug_at_southwindkayaks.com joanne_at_southwindkayaks.com http://www.southwindkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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