In light of the tragedy that seems to have befallen JFK Jr., I would like to open up a discussion regarding risk taking and preparededness as it applies to sea kayaking. As some of you know, JFK Jr. was also a sea kayaker. And from reviewing his approach to this endeavor, one can see some of the elements of potential disaster that finally caught up with him in flying a plane. Don’t get me wrong. He seemed a nice likable guy, inquisitive and approachable. He was often enough sighted at the Downtown Boathouse where he kept two hardshell kayaks. He was totally unassuming and surprisingly turned few heads. The last time I saw him there was on a weekend with a small crowd of people waiting their turns to use the public boats. He was a good looking guy but didn’t turn heads all that much (the place is full of great looking guys and gals) and went unrecognized even by the young ladies awaiting their free kayaking chance. At that time, he was told that I knew a lot about folding kayaks and came over asking a lot of intelligent questions in a lively 10 minute conversation. He seemed interested in buying one. I knew that in his younger days, his mother had purchased a double Klepper and there are a number of photos of he and his cousins fooling around in it. And I alluded to that as a reference point (principlely, don’t judge folding singles by the behavior of folding doubles). But on that day, he showed what I consider an overly casual approach to kayaking on the water. He had gone out into the busy summer weekend traffic without seeming to turn much to see what was happening around him and he was not wearing a PFD (I don’t believe he had one aboard either), nor carrying a bilge pump or paddle float. Earlier a few years back, he had written an article that appeared in the Travel Section of the Sunday NY Times. It was about a muti-day kayaking trip he and some buddies took in single hardshells in Scandanavia somewhere (I forget which country). The foto accompanying the article showed them all paddling barechested. My impression was that perhaps they may have needed some coldwater clothing and certainly should have on their PFDs. In the article, they ran into a typical novice accident. They started off one day near the end of the trip in calm waters behind some protective island only to run into real rough stuff once they turned a point of land. Several of the group went over (as I recall it). And they had no idea of how to get overboard paddlers back into their boats. No sense of how to empty a boat, raft up for an assisted-rescue, etc. The best they could come up with is to have the individual(s) hang on to the back of the other boats and be towed into shore. They were pretty cold and miserable and near hypothermic. I forget whether he was one of those in the water or not. As I watched him paddling the day we had the talk on folding kayaks, I said to myself that this guy is going to get himself hurt one day paddling the way he did and that with his celebrity status it would draw a lot of unfortunate attention to kayaking in NYC and to the Boathouse program. So I was not surprised to hear that his plane had gone down, that he had flewn in marginal conditions for his skill level and rating. That he was flying totally in the dark in a near moonless night without instrument flying knowledge. And that there was no life vests or a life raft aboard that one might prudently carry in a plane that was used often over open water. Some aviation expert on the news over the weekend recited a ole flying adage: “There are old pilots and there are bold pilots. There are no old, bold pilots.” Some of this may apply to kayaking as well, albeit the risks are usually somewhat less catastrophic. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I had an interesting experience with risk taking this weekend. However, in retrospect it is not "risk taking" at all it is "lack of knowledge" or the "ignorance is bliss" problems. Two friends came into town and wanted to borrow my kayaks. Both are extremely athletic. Neither had any kayaking experience. One should have known even better as he is a merchant ship officer with years at sea. To my horror, I turned around to see them push off without life jackets (stowed under their feet). They proceeded to cross boat traffic inn the bay and I lost sight in the haze. It was a bit choppy and I worried the whole time because neither had a clue how to do a rescue. Well, they came back fine, loved kayaking, blah blah. I smacked them both. Why do I say this? They had no clue of the problems they could encounter. No Clue. Surprisingly, I have learned a lot of what not to do from NTSB death reports. When I was still running ships I read them religiously, this guy got crushed, that guy got burned, that ship exploded, this one crashed, another one sank with all hands etc. Morbid stories but they are thoroughly investigated and you learn a ton of "I never thought of that" things. Articles in Sk magazine help that as have some of the tales on this list. You cant really anticipate what you will encounter until you allow yourself to be educated. Until then you are happy and ignorant. Flying a new plane, without an instrument rate license, at night, with 2-3 miles visibility closing? Everything probably seemed fine, low risk, but when you read a lot of NTSB reports on plane crashes, there is an overwhelming number attributed to inexperience ie. ignorance is bliss. Was that the problem on Friday night? It is not our position to speculate at this point but I bet the small plane pilots out there will learn something when they finish the investigation. Unfortunately, it was another night helos and C130's flying over my house and you knew someone wasnt going to be at the dinner table that night. Tom Rhode Island *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
You are only risk taking when you know it is a risk, otherwise you are just out having a good time. Most people who go out kayaking are just having a good time, the idea that there might be some risk involved never crosses their mind. On a nice sunny day there is nothing to suggest that you might be taking your life in your hands. If we could sue the creator for lack of addequate safety warnings, I'm sure it would already have been done. I expect the good Prof. Inverbon has a transcript of the litigation in his archives. The beauty of many risky sports is most of the time you can get away with ignorance and still survive. Some endeavors appear more risky than they are. Flying a plane is probably a prime example. Flying is pretty safe, it is the taking off and landing you want to avoid. I doubt we will learn what caused JFK Jr. to go down. Maybe it was failure to properly assess circumstances, but even the best trained, most experienced and conservative "experts" in any skill will make mistakes. I expect John Jr. was not much different from the rest of us. He wanted to get somewhere and he didn't feel like changing his plans. We have all been in this situation before. We have all done things hindsight suggests were not smart, but we survived. In many cases the experience taught uas how to do it right and help us learn what are limits are. We were lucky and we benefitted from the fact that the worst does not always happen. JFK Jr. is just a guy whose cards fell the wrong way. Unfortunately for his family, he happened to have been famous. Now they will have to listen to the world second guessing. Nick At 11:08 AM -0400 7/19/99, WILAX_at_aol.com wrote: >I had an interesting experience with risk taking this weekend. However, in >retrospect it is not "risk taking" at all it is "lack of knowledge" or the >"ignorance is bliss" problems. > >Two friends came into town and wanted to borrow my kayaks. Both are >extremely athletic. Neither had any kayaking experience. One should have >known even better as he is a merchant ship officer with years at sea. To my >horror, I turned around to see them push off without life jackets (stowed >under their feet). They proceeded to cross boat traffic inn the bay and I >lost sight in the haze. It was a bit choppy and I worried the whole time >because neither had a clue how to do a rescue. Well, they came back fine, >loved kayaking, blah blah. I smacked them both. > >Why do I say this? They had no clue of the problems they could encounter. >No Clue. Surprisingly, I have learned a lot of what not to do from NTSB >death reports. When I was still running ships I read them religiously, this >guy got crushed, that guy got burned, that ship exploded, this one crashed, >another one sank with all hands etc. Morbid stories but they are thoroughly >investigated and you learn a ton of "I never thought of that" things. >Articles in Sk magazine help that as have some of the tales on this list. >You cant really anticipate what you will encounter until you allow yourself >to be educated. Until then you are happy and ignorant. > >Flying a new plane, without an instrument rate license, at night, with 2-3 >miles visibility closing? Everything probably seemed fine, low risk, but >when you read a lot of NTSB reports on plane crashes, there is an >overwhelming number attributed to inexperience ie. ignorance is bliss. Was >that the problem on Friday night? It is not our position to speculate at >this point but I bet the small plane pilots out there will learn something >when they finish the investigation. > >Unfortunately, it was another night helos and C130's flying over my house >and you knew someone wasnt going to be at the dinner table that night. > >Tom >Rhode Island >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 10 Ash Swamp Rd Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nick Schade wrote: > > You are only risk taking when you know it is a risk, otherwise you are just > out having a good time. [snip] > Maybe it was failure to properly assess circumstances, but even the best > trained, most experienced and conservative "experts" in any skill will make > mistakes. I expect John Jr. was not much different from the rest of us. He > wanted to get somewhere and he didn't feel like changing his plans. > > We have all been in this situation before. We have all done things > hindsight suggests were not smart, but we survived. In many cases the > experience taught us how to do it right and help us learn what are limits > are. We were lucky and we benefitted from the fact that the worst does not > always happen. Right on, brother Schade. Except for dumb luck and strong arms, my soul might have preceded JFK, Jr.'s into the great beyond. Maybe a way for us to make the best of this tragic event is to 'fess up and lay out for the multitudes an example of how serendipity (the Gods, dumb luck, etc.) spared us. Here's mine: --- As a paddler of three months experience, I set off with my oceanographer buddy across the sunny, calm Columbia River to an island some seven or eight miles of open water away. On circumnavigating it and another, lunch was consumed on the downstream, westerly end of a third island, still some 3-4 miles of open water from a protected shoreline, and exposed to some 15-20 miles of goodly fetch. Mindlessly snarfing down my lunch, I noticed the wind was picking up, and lo and behold, as we launched, it turned into a spiffy 15-20 knot headwind, quartering against us from the right, bringing with it short-period 2-3-foot seas, occasionally breaking. We bulled our way through it, consuming some 2.5 hours to traverse the open water, taking it in our chests, faces -- slapping the water at a merry pace. Fun day, no? Would be today. I had no immersion protection clothing (did not even own any), was wearing a T-shirt and shorts, and had absolutely no bracing skills. I had practiced a wet exit and paddle-float re-entry, but the latter technique would have been very difficult that day. Oh, yeah, I had lived near this water for twenty years at the time, and had acquired detailed knowledge of the couple dozen hypothermia-related drownings which had occured over the two decades. Dumb -- and if I had bought it, others would have clucked their tongues about my improvidence. I'm glad to be here, to tell the story. --- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR a humble guy, in the face of anyone's death *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Why do I say this? They had no clue of the problems they could encounter. >No Clue. Very much so. Three years ago there was a rash of paddler drownings in NJ. This "invincible ignorance" was a major factor. No pfds, no thermal protection, running lowhead dams, etc. None were members of any paddling club. Talking with friends of theirs, it was clear that for all their paddling experience they had never learned the warning signs that we all know, nor were they even aware that these were dangers. Newspaper reports all lamented the event but never said anything about prevention. I was able to get one letter published regarding this in one of the newspapers' boating column, but not anything else. One of the local clubs put together a promotional package to be sold with boats by one dealer with safety info, an invitation to join, and a coupon for a free safety/rescue workshop. No takers. Nada. Hence "invincible ignorance".... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Dave, > > I like your idea of sharing our own "near death" experiences. Here's my > contribution.... > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > After paddling only a month, I grew frustrated at the difficulty of > finding people to paddle with and started paddling on my own in my plastic > Sea Lion kayak. I was paddling upstream along the Mary's river -- trying > to see how far upstream I could get when I had my first kayaking, near > death encounter. > > The river had a steady current and some minor class one rapids. Punching > through these rapids was hard, but a great workout and for the most part > quite fun. > > One rapid pushed straight into a bushy tree that had fallen into the > water. These are the deadly "strainers" that river-paddlers are supposed > to know avoid at all costs. As a stupid beginner, though, I didn't know > this and plunged up stream next to the strainer. Well, the current this > time was a bit too much and I was swept backwards into the strainer. As I > hit the downed tree, I instinctively leaned away from the strainer --- > which now with my greater experience, I know to be exactly the opposite of > what one is supposed to do. > > With my lean away from the stainer, once my motion was slowed by the tree, > the water built up on my upstream rail and immediately flipped me. So > there I was, upside down, all alone, with water pinning me in my boat and > against the tree. Fortunately, the tree branches had just enough give in > them that I was able to struggle my way out of the boat and to the > surface. If the branches had been stiffer, I would have definitely > drowned --- even the current in class I water is enough to hoplessly pin > you against a stiff strainer. I worked the boat free, sat at the rivers > edge until my heart beat returned to normal. > > I can only tell you this story 'cause none of you know my wife. She would > freak out if she knew how close I came to a fatal accident. > > Lessons learned: Avoid stainers. If you can't, then lunge on top of them > --- not away from them. This lunge technique works very well. The second > time I hit a strainer (while paddling in the dark last year), I lunged on > top of it with such panic driven force that my body AND sea kayak rolled > right over the downed tree. > > --Tim > > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Erik Baard's comments are right on as far as I am concerned. I am struck about several things Erik said: 1. His observation about JFK Jr. not wearing something prudent for possible cold water exposure and then JFK Jr. politely shrugging off Erik's words of caution. Most of us who saw JFK Jr.'s imprudent approach to cold water conditions never said a word to him about any of it. So kudos to Erik for speaking up. 2. Erik's observations (that back up my own) about lack of a bilge pump, paddle float, etc. and no evidence of a PFD even strapped to the deck (if there were one, it would have been buried deep inside the kayak). I don't think anyone said anything about that either to JFK Jr.. But it had nothing to do with his celebrity status. I for one have given up in most cases saying anything to people going out on the water apparently ill prepared in terms of such gear and lacking a PFD on them (except for those people using the public kayaks at the Downtown Boathouse where we have somewhat more authority and obligation to enforce such a policy). 3. And, then, the irony of JFK Jr. having been pulled over one day by the Coast Guard for careless paddling in a high traffic area; it's the same organization that searched this weekend for his lost plane and passengers. Before anyone gets overworked about the Coast Guard pulling JFK Jr. over for not wearing a PFD, yes--it exceeded their authority to do so. All that is legally required is to have one accessible. (Sometimes overzealous CG crews in the harbor will do that. On one occasion the CG Command hearing about it wanted to know when/where/etc/. to chastise the crew. I feigned a bad memory. I rather see the CG crews scaring people into putting PFDs on even though it's not the law.) I don't know if there is anything more to be said here except that this is all a reminder about prudence and judgment in situations that may involve risk. Some of us will derive lessons from it, others will not. Take your pick. Maybe we should all be a bit more like Erik and speak up when we see people behaving imprudently even at the risk of sounding like cranks. Maybe if more such is done, then it may transform a person's inprudent behavior in an activity and the change just might spill over into other endeavors as well. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > > I don't know if there is anything more to be said here except that this > is all a reminder about prudence and judgment in situations that may > involve risk. Some of us will derive lessons from it, others will not. > Take your pick. Maybe we should all be a bit more like Erik and speak > up when we see people behaving imprudently even at the risk of sounding > like cranks. Maybe if more such is done, then it may transform a > person's inprudent behavior in an activity and the change just might > spill over into other endeavors as well. Its worse than that. We're still in the launch, try various things close to shore, have a good time, go home mode. (The ongoing learning how to deal with toddler in a kayak). I'm ready to move on, but my wife and toddler still need easy steps to build skills and confidence. So we went to an tidal estuary. Small channel filling and draining the estuary. Boat launch ramp right at the narrow part of the channel (go figure why it was put there????). At or near high tide, so current through channel is minimal. Out past the estuary, one of the side channels of Puget sound, deep water, strong currents, shipping lane. I'm in wetsuit and PFD, wife in PFD, toddler in PFD. Start chatting on shore with some guy who claims to be real gung ho about kayaking, both sea kayaking and WW. Been playing in the water for years, his daughter is a natural in a kayak, etc. How he has some catamaran rig that he likes to take on class 5 rivers, but he seems to have trouble finding people that want to come along... Next thing I know, I'm being scolded for wearing a wetsuit and pfd. Why am I bothering, etc. I try to explain that I'd rather have the wet suit that so I can spend more time in the water focusing on other issues if the toddler is having problems and ends up in the water. Also, I'm going out without a spray skirt (figuring if I have problems I'll be doing a wet exit anyway, and with a toddler in the cockpit, we haven't figure out the second hole in the spray skirt yet.) This same guy is offering to go out and flip me in the kayak, so I can practice my rolls, with no spray skirt... Well, I'd like to learn to roll, but I figure I'll start with a pool session and an instructor that seems to have a clue first...I'd also rather not try to roll a kayak without a spray skirt. I can make the kayak capsize on my own (if I choose), just fine. How many other newbies has this person browbeat into leaving behind their PFD? No wonder he has problems finding people for his class 5 runs. Bozo. It not just educating the newbies, its dealing with really bad advice from people that by their own claims should have enough experience to know better. Scary. dave -- Dave Uebele (daveu_at_sptddog.com) Spotted Dog Systems http://sptddog.com/daveu.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Uebele wrote: > So we went to an tidal estuary. Small channel filling and draining > the estuary. Boat launch ramp right at the narrow part of the channel > (go figure why it was put there????). At or near high tide, > so current through channel is minimal. [big snip] Probably put there so the tidal flushing would assure some relatively deep water at/off the ramp. For most power boats, the current is of no/little concern. Around here, boat ramps are sired with the powerboat crowd in mind, not the paddlefolks! In silty bays, unless something stirs up the water at the edge of the bay, it will silt in. Example: The boat ramp a quarter mile from my house is completely unusable except from mid-tide to high tide because of this. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I received a call from CBS News this morning regarding, of course, sea kayaking and the fact that they will be focusing their 60 minutes piece (airing tonight) on JFK Jr. Initially, they had called to see if I had video footage of kayaking (which I do although I emphasized it was totally amateur). Then they wanted stills of places that he might have been where I might of had photos of the same location. Then it was decided that really they wanted photos and/or footage of HIM kayaking or HIM in a location. I asked the correspondent if they had been in touch with people in the DTBH where he stored some boats and the reply was "yes, there is a whole group of us working on this assignment". Apparently they have been in contact with someone he took a trip with and have photos from. I later asked (probably stepping way over the bounderies) if they could air only those photos of him wearing a PFD. He checked the pile of photos and said none of them reflected him wearing anything other than a sprayskirt (as he described it). So night the program will air, a portion of it reflecting his kayaking. Debbie Reeves Sandy Hook, NJ > ---------- > From: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com[SMTP:rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com] > Sent: Monday, July 19, 1999 11:48 AM > To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net; nyckayaker_at_envirolink.org > Subject: [Paddlewise] JFK Jr. and Risk Taking > > In light of the tragedy that seems to have befallen JFK Jr., I would > like to open up a discussion regarding risk taking and preparededness as > it applies to sea kayaking. > > As some of you know, JFK Jr. was also a sea kayaker. And from reviewing > his approach to this endeavor, one can see some of the elements of > potential disaster that finally caught up with him in flying a plane. > > Don't get me wrong. He seemed a nice likable guy, inquisitive and > approachable. He was often enough sighted at the Downtown Boathouse > where he kept two hardshell kayaks. He was totally unassuming and > surprisingly turned few heads. The last time I saw him there was on a > weekend with a small crowd of people waiting their turns to use the > public boats. He was a good looking guy but didn't turn heads all that > much (the place is full of great looking guys and gals) and went > unrecognized even by the young ladies awaiting their free kayaking > chance. At that time, he was told that I knew a lot about folding > kayaks and came over asking a lot of intelligent questions in a lively > 10 minute conversation. He seemed interested in buying one. I knew > that in his younger days, his mother had purchased a double Klepper and > there are a number of photos of he and his cousins fooling around in it. > And I alluded to that as a reference point (principlely, don't judge > folding singles by the behavior of folding doubles). > > But on that day, he showed what I consider an overly casual approach to > kayaking on the water. He had gone out into the busy summer weekend > traffic without seeming to turn much to see what was happening around > him and he was not wearing a PFD (I don't believe he had one aboard > either), nor carrying a bilge pump or paddle float. > > Earlier a few years back, he had written an article that appeared in the > Travel Section of the Sunday NY Times. It was about a muti-day kayaking > trip he and some buddies took in single hardshells in Scandanavia > somewhere (I forget which country). The foto accompanying the article > showed them all paddling barechested. My impression was that perhaps > they may have needed some coldwater clothing and certainly should have > on their PFDs. In the article, they ran into a typical novice > accident. They started off one day near the end of the trip in calm > waters behind some protective island only to run into real rough stuff > once they turned a point of land. Several of the group went over (as I > recall it). And they had no idea of how to get overboard paddlers back > into their boats. No sense of how to empty a boat, raft up for an > assisted-rescue, etc. The best they could come up with is to have the > individual(s) hang on to the back of the other boats and be towed into > shore. They were pretty cold and miserable and near hypothermic. I > forget whether he was one of those in the water or not. > > As I watched him paddling the day we had the talk on folding kayaks, I > said to myself that this guy is going to get himself hurt one day > paddling the way he did and that with his celebrity status it would draw > a lot of unfortunate attention to kayaking in NYC and to the Boathouse > program. > > So I was not surprised to hear that his plane had gone down, that he had > flewn in marginal conditions for his skill level and rating. That he > was flying totally in the dark in a near moonless night without > instrument flying knowledge. And that there was no life vests or a life > raft aboard that one might prudently carry in a plane that was used > often over open water. > > Some aviation expert on the news over the weekend recited a ole flying > adage: "There are old pilots and there are bold pilots. There are no > old, bold pilots." Some of this may apply to kayaking as well, albeit > the risks are usually somewhat less catastrophic. > > ralph diaz > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter > PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 > Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com > "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ************************************************************************** > * > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > ************************************************************************** > * > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:00 PDT