Jackie wrote > >Do you know of any instances where a skilled paddler has suffered >hyperthermia from wearing a wetsuit or drysuit? Since hypothermia has >been called the number one killer of sea kayakers, I am curious to know >if anyone has actually suffered real heat stroke (hyperthermia) from >wearing a wetsuit or drysuit (not anectdotal, but documented). This >is a common excuse given for not wearing a wetsuit or drysuit but I >have never heard of any actual accounts. This doesn't answer your question directly but In "The Users Guide to the Australian Coast" there are two relevant tables i) Potential heat stress hazard posed by combinations of air temperature and relative humidity - based on data from NOAA and ii) Potential cold stress hazard for immersion in cold water without body protection - based on data from Australian Oceanographic Data Centre. My interpretation of the heat stress table suggests that at temperatures above 27 celsius and 70% humidity or 30 celsius and 50% relative humidity there is a moderate to high risk of heat cramps and heat exhaustion with prolongued activity. I won't give the cold stress figure I imagine in general American kayakers know more about this than Australians. I have suffered hyperthermia (vomiting, dizziness and salt loss years ago walking (in England) and believe in the right clothing for the right conditions. I've only been kayaking for a year (twice a week every week) but In Australia, while kayaking, I find it very risky to wear a wetsuit in high summer but always wear one in winter. I'm wearing one now and about to go for some practice in Bobbin Head! PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> >Mattson, Timothy G wrote: >I live and paddle in the Northwest. "Serious Sea Kayakers I paddle with" >almost never wear full wet suits or dry suits. Of course we wear them when >playing in the surf and in unusually rough seas, but for the most part, its >just poly-pro with maybe a light neoprene vest and a light paddle jacket for >winter conditions. > Here in Wales most of my paddling friends dress in the same way, the idea is not to come out of the boat at all... To wear a dry suit would not be practical - we'd just get too hot! At a recent Sea Symposium on Anglesey it was a hot day, the sun was shining, all the locals trying out new boats dressed in shorts and t-shirts. We were amused and puzzled by many of the visiting Americans insisting on wearing full dry suit, perhapps they were interested in preparing their bodies for the evening drinking sessions! Cheers, Keith >> For Tim: How many people who dress lightly for sea kayaking in the Northwest are not "Serious Sea Kayakers" with good braces and rolls? For Keith: 1. What was the water temperature? 2. Were the people trying out the boats rolling them or leaning them enough to get wet? Derek Hutchinson once questioned Linda's and my decision to wear dry suits on a hot, sunny day on Lake Superior when the water was icy cold, but relented when we told him we intended to practice rolling during our paddle. We had taken an advanced rolling class from James Loveridge the previous day, and after two rolls without a neoprene hood, my head felt like an ice cube! (No, not cubical.) Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Chris & Ellen Kohut wrote: > > What kills paddlers .........is presumption. Well said!!! Don't presume anything about the weather, conditions, your own skills, your equipment bailing you out...nada. Everything is changeable and everything subject to failure. Obviously, you do have to put risks and risk-reduction into some proportion and balance. But it is always best in that balancing act to err on the side of caution and prudence rather than on the side of risk. If you err on the side of caution, the worse that happens is that you are over-prepared; if you err on the side of risk, you are in deep trouble if the unexpected happens. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Chuck, You raised a couple good points I'd like to respond to. (1) If I know I'm going out to work on new rolling techniques and therefore will spend lots of time in the water, I'll wear my light wet suit (a neoprene vest and shorts) and if its real cold water, I'll wear a neoprene hood or even a dry top. My comments were written with a typical day of paddling in mind. (2) Your second point is VERY important and has concerned me on a number of occaisions. Most sea kayakers can't roll. Most sea kayakers don't think they need to roll. When they flip, it means a swim. If I know I stand a good chance of swimming (like in a day of surfing), I wear a wet suit and I would suggest the same to anyone. Hence, many kayakers -- even serious northwest kayakers who don't roll -- should wear a wet suit in anything but the calmest cold water..... but then again, I am a saftey nut. I'm sure many people up here would disagree with me. --Tim -----Original Message----- From: CHUCK_at_multitech.com [mailto:CHUCK_at_multitech.com] Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 1:48 PM To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] When in Rome do as the >> >Mattson, Timothy G wrote: >I live and paddle in the Northwest. "Serious Sea Kayakers I paddle with" >almost never wear full wet suits or dry suits. Of course we wear them when >playing in the surf and in unusually rough seas, but for the most part, its >just poly-pro with maybe a light neoprene vest and a light paddle jacket for >winter conditions. > Here in Wales most of my paddling friends dress in the same way, the idea is not to come out of the boat at all... To wear a dry suit would not be practical - we'd just get too hot! At a recent Sea Symposium on Anglesey it was a hot day, the sun was shining, all the locals trying out new boats dressed in shorts and t-shirts. We were amused and puzzled by many of the visiting Americans insisting on wearing full dry suit, perhapps they were interested in preparing their bodies for the evening drinking sessions! Cheers, Keith >> For Tim: How many people who dress lightly for sea kayaking in the Northwest are not "Serious Sea Kayakers" with good braces and rolls? For Keith: 1. What was the water temperature? 2. Were the people trying out the boats rolling them or leaning them enough to get wet? Derek Hutchinson once questioned Linda's and my decision to wear dry suits on a hot, sunny day on Lake Superior when the water was icy cold, but relented when we told him we intended to practice rolling during our paddle. We had taken an advanced rolling class from James Loveridge the previous day, and after two rolls without a neoprene hood, my head felt like an ice cube! (No, not cubical.) Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Elaine wrote: >All right, I confess. That remark was just a pretext for this post; I just had to ask: how do you pronounce "Phuket"? ;-) e The "H" is silent. It's pronounced Poo-ket. Thailand isn't "Thigh-land" :-) Cheers, Dave Williams paddler_at_loxinfo.co.th http://paddleasia.com Phuket, Thailand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Kayakers, I still think the risk of overheating while paddling with a wetsuit or drysuit on is very underrated. During my solo crossing in rough water and a stiff headwind (small craft advisory) from Anacapa Island to Santa Cruz Island (see The Trip Nobody Else Wanted), I was wearing only polypro, and because I had to exert myself so much on the paddle to fight the conditions, I was very hot and sweating heavily. I would hate to imagine the heat exhaustion or heat stroke I could have resulted if I was wearing a wetsuit or drysuit. The water temp was in the low 60's, but I would like to add that I have excellent rolling and bracing skills, and I did do some bracing. But like I have said before, I think a skilled paddler has much higher chance of getting heat stroke or heat exhaustion by wearing a wetsuit or drysuit than getting hypothermia from not wearing one. Duane Strosaker Irvine, California *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: Strosaker_at_aol.com <snip> > have excellent rolling and bracing skills, and I did do some bracing. But > like I have said before, I think a skilled paddler has much higher chance of > getting heat stroke or heat exhaustion by wearing a wetsuit or drysuit than > getting hypothermia from not wearing one. > > Duane Strosaker Do you know of any instances where a skilled paddler has suffered hyperthermia from wearing a wetsuit or drysuit? Since hypothermia has been called the number one killer of sea kayakers, I am curious to know if anyone has actually suffered real heat stroke (hyperthermia) from wearing a wetsuit or drysuit (not anectdotal, but documented). This is a common excuse given for not wearing a wetsuit or drysuit but I have never heard of any actual accounts. Thanks, Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jackie, Your unlikely to see a documented case of hyperthermia in kayakers wearing drysuits, because racers tend not to wear drysuits, and most people wearing a drysuit would tend to back off the intensity if they're over heating. I passed out from heat exhaustion during a workout back when I competed in bike racing (I hit the pavement at 30mph and even with a helmet the resulting head damage wasn't good)and when I was racing track I had Heat Stroke on two different occasions about ten years apart. Personally I do dress for some immersion - i.e. a shorty wetsuit, and when the air is real warm, I'll unzip it to my waste in smooth sections of water, even though the water is cold (55-57F). I also drink about 1-2 liters of liquid per hour of paddling, and often paddle hard enough to sweat to the point that I don't have to pee. I do agree that it is a skills and environment issue. I'd suspect that the number one cause of death is really getting in over ones head, I've done it myself and fortunately lived through it - although some of my friends may think otherwise ;-) That's also the reason why people don't wear drysuits when they are on a cruise ship in Alaska or off of Newfoundland, even though in the case of the Titanic, it would have saved some lives. So I really think it is a question of ones skills, as compared to the environment that they are paddling in. It's basically a risk assessment issue, with probably the biggest problem being that those with the least skills and experience, making the judgment that the risk is low when in fact it isn't. - Thanks -Saul -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of Jackie Fenton Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 5:53 PM To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] When in Rome do as the > From: Strosaker_at_aol.com <snip> > have excellent rolling and bracing skills, and I did do some bracing. But > like I have said before, I think a skilled paddler has much higher chance of > getting heat stroke or heat exhaustion by wearing a wetsuit or drysuit than > getting hypothermia from not wearing one. > > Duane Strosaker Do you know of any instances where a skilled paddler has suffered hyperthermia from wearing a wetsuit or drysuit? Since hypothermia has been called the number one killer of sea kayakers, I am curious to know if anyone has actually suffered real heat stroke (hyperthermia) from wearing a wetsuit or drysuit (not anectdotal, but documented). This is a common excuse given for not wearing a wetsuit or drysuit but I have never heard of any actual accounts. Thanks, Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
<< Do you know of any instances where a skilled paddler has suffered hyperthermia from wearing a wetsuit or drysuit? Since hypothermia has been called the number one killer of sea kayakers, I am curious to know if anyone has actually suffered real heat stroke (hyperthermia) from wearing a wetsuit or drysuit (not anectdotal, but documented). This is a common excuse given for not wearing a wetsuit or drysuit but I have never heard of any actual accounts. >> Although hypothermia is often called the number one killer of sea kayakers, I believe the real culprit deserving the title of numero uno is drowning. I really doubt very many sea kayakers actually die of hypothermia. They may pass out and drown as a result of hypothermia, but they do not, in most cases, actually die of hypothermia. This may seem like nit picking, but if a paddler unzips their drysuit from overheating and subsequently capsizes, becomes hypothermic and drowns, did they die from hypothermia or hyperthermia? How many people have actually been saved by wearing pfd's? I don't want any anecdotal stories here, but actual documented accounts of people who are alive today because they were wearing their pfd. There is NO WAY one can determine unequivocally that the pfd saved their lives, or that a paddler might be alive today had they been wearing one! We each must access our own capabilities and the conditions we paddle in and dress/equip ourselves accordingly. There are not any hard and fast rules here. Most sea kayakers cannot reliably roll or perform self rescues. That does not mean that those of us who can should be condemned to the constant ridicule of our fellow paddlers because we have taken the time to build on our skills to the point of being able to rely on them rather then on the equipment. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
KiAyker_at_aol.com wrote: > How many people have actually been saved by wearing pfd's? I don't want > any anecdotal stories here, but actual documented accounts of people who are > alive today because they were wearing their pfd. There is NO WAY one can > determine unequivocally that the pfd saved their lives, or that a paddler > might be alive today had they been wearing one! ME!!! I always have worn my PFD period. One day about nine years ago on relatively calm waters my PFD saved my life, again period. Below is the documentation. You will just have to trust my assessment and analysis of the situation that the PFD unquivocally saved my life. I was paddling on the upper East River in NYC with some other paddlers including a visitor from the West Coast. One of them is a friend who never wore a PFD and swore he could get his out from under deck bungee and on in a jiffy if he ever were to go over (and hang on to his paddle and boat at the same time...) We decided to cross on something called the Bronx Kill to get over to the Harlem River and back down the East River to our put-in in Brooklyn. The Bronx Kill is a small estuary that separates Randall's Island from the Bronx. It is navigable by kayak only at certain times of the tidal cycles. The reason is that the there are several low bridges including one that carries utilities to the island and the water has to be at a certain level to give you enough daylight to go under. I was first in the group and paddled up to the low bridge and could see that the water was running through and under it too high for clearance and I paddled back a hundred feet or so to tell the others. They started portaging on the two banks. I was deciding which one I wanted to go to and in looking at them I failed to realize that the current was moving me swiftly back toward the low bridge. The next thing I knew I was pinned against it quite strongly. I was in my Klepper single. I went to push off and inadvertently dipped the upstream side of my kayak into the fast moving water. The next thing I knew I was hanging upside down. I wet exited (I understand from later discussions with knowledgeable paddlers that even if it were a more rollable boat and I could roll it, it is nearly impossible to roll when so pinned as the boat gets stuck during the roll and won't come up fully). I knew enough to come up on the upstream side and my PFD gave me enough bouyancy to do so. I clung to the upside down kayak and here is where the PFD saved my life. The water was now rushing under the bridge. It was sucking my body under with quite a lot of force, my legs were being pushed well under the boat. Without the buoyancy of the PFD I simply could not have been riding high enough in the water to hang on for dear life to the boat and surely would have been sucked under the bridge. The bridge had all sorts of tie rods sticking out, old wire trash cans thrown in by vandals and who knows what else to ensnarl me underwater. There would have been no way to put on the PFD or have the time to if I had not had it on. It was nearly impossible to swim away since before one could get even one or two strokes and some momentum against the current you would have been pulled under the boat and bridge. I managed to slowly with some foot kicks to swim the boat toward shore rubbing it all the way along the rough concrete surface (thank god for good strong abrasion resistant hypalon). It was only about 60 feet or so. Again, I want to repeat that this was a calm day, calm water, September air and water temperatures which are both quite pleasant here. My point is that there is no such thing as completely safe conditions on the water. Your situation and conditions can change in the blink of an eye. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
KUDOS to you Ralph for interjecting a bit of sanity into the conversation! If I were to ask for a show of hands as to who thought that wearing a PFD was a pain-in-the-arse at least sometimes..............well, I couldn't very well see them on the bulletin board, could I? But I bet there would be a lot!!!!! When I feel the urge to slip my PFD under the deck bungies.........I simply think of all the stronger paddlers who have drowned........I think of all of the paddlers who were more clever than I who have drowned........I think of all of the paddlers with better equipment and sleek fiberglass (glass fiber, as they call it), sexy british seakayaks who have drowned .......... I think of my darling wife.........I think of my own doe-eyed children.......I think of my sainted snowy-haired sainted mother ............if that all doesn't work.........I pull a nose hair. ...............And I put the damned PFD on. What kills paddlers .........is presumption. rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > KiAyker_at_aol.com wrote: > > > How many people have actually been saved by wearing pfd's? I don't want > > any anecdotal stories here, but actual documented accounts of people who are > > alive today because they were wearing their pfd. There is NO WAY one can > > determine unequivocally that the pfd saved their lives, or that a paddler > > might be alive today had they been wearing one! > > ME!!! > > I always have worn my PFD period. One day about nine years ago on > relatively calm waters my PFD saved my life, again period. Below is the > documentation. You will just have to trust my assessment and analysis of > the situation that the PFD unquivocally saved my life. > > I was paddling on the upper East River in NYC with some other paddlers > including a visitor from the West Coast. One of them is a friend who > never wore a PFD and swore he could get his out from under deck bungee > and on in a jiffy if he ever were to go over (and hang on to his paddle > and boat at the same time...) We decided to cross on something called > the Bronx Kill to get over to the Harlem River and back down the East > River to our put-in in Brooklyn. > > The Bronx Kill is a small estuary that separates Randall's Island from > the Bronx. It is navigable by kayak only at certain times of the tidal > cycles. The reason is that the there are several low bridges including > one that carries utilities to the island and the water has to be at a > certain level to give you enough daylight to go under. > > I was first in the group and paddled up to the low bridge and could see > that the water was running through and under it too high for clearance > and I paddled back a hundred feet or so to tell the others. They > started portaging on the two banks. I was deciding which one I wanted > to go to and in looking at them I failed to realize that the current was > moving me swiftly back toward the low bridge. The next thing I knew I > was pinned against it quite strongly. I was in my Klepper single. > > I went to push off and inadvertently dipped the upstream side of my > kayak into the fast moving water. The next thing I knew I was hanging > upside down. I wet exited (I understand from later discussions with > knowledgeable paddlers that even if it were a more rollable boat and I > could roll it, it is nearly impossible to roll when so pinned as the > boat gets stuck during the roll and won't come up fully). I knew enough > to come up on the upstream side and my PFD gave me enough bouyancy to do > so. I clung to the upside down kayak and here is where the PFD saved my > life. > > The water was now rushing under the bridge. It was sucking my body > under with quite a lot of force, my legs were being pushed well under > the boat. Without the buoyancy of the PFD I simply could not have been > riding high enough in the water to hang on for dear life to the boat and > surely would have been sucked under the bridge. The bridge had all > sorts of tie rods sticking out, old wire trash cans thrown in by vandals > and who knows what else to ensnarl me underwater. There would have been > no way to put on the PFD or have the time to if I had not had it on. > > It was nearly impossible to swim away since before one could get even > one or two strokes and some momentum against the current you would have > been pulled under the boat and bridge. I managed to slowly with some > foot kicks to swim the boat toward shore rubbing it all the way along > the rough concrete surface (thank god for good strong abrasion resistant > hypalon). It was only about 60 feet or so. > > Again, I want to repeat that this was a calm day, calm water, September > air and water temperatures which are both quite pleasant here. > > My point is that there is no such thing as completely safe conditions on > the water. Your situation and conditions can change in the blink of an > eye. > > ralph diaz > > > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter > PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 > Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com > "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph Diaz wrote: >...I was first in the group and paddled up to the low bridge and could see that the water was running through and under it too high for clearance and I paddled back a hundred feet or so to tell the others... >Again, I want to repeat that this was a calm day, calm water, September air and water temperatures which are both quite pleasant here. >My point is that there is no such thing as completely safe conditions on the water. Your situation and conditions can change in the blink of an eye. What a horror story Ralph! I'm glad you were strong enough to pull yourself and the boat all the way out of that situation. However, I would hardly think to call those "conditions" completely safe in the first place. Any time you've got a strong current (you said the water was "rushing under the bridge"), you've got potential trouble. Whether it be the threat of being separated from your kayak if you happen to flip and swim or, as in your case, there are obstacles. A PFD is essential in those conditions! What I would "tend" to call a completely safe condition is a currentless bay, in WARM water, with a group of safety conscious paddlers. Although, I still wouldn't want to call it "completely" safe I guess. Here in sunny Thailand, if you've survived the drive to the beach, you've already cheated death! Does anyone on this list have any horror stories about paddling in truly calm conditions, in warm water, with no current? I'm not trying to be a wise guy here, I really would like to hear them. Cheers, Dave Williams paddler_at_loxinfo.co.th http://paddleasia.com Phuket, Thailand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Williams wrote: > > Ralph Diaz wrote: > > >...I was first in the group and paddled up to the low bridge and could see > that the water was running through and under it too high for clearance and I > paddled back a hundred feet or so to tell the others... > >Again, I want to repeat that this was a calm day, calm water, September air > and water temperatures which are both quite pleasant here. > >My point is that there is no such thing as completely safe conditions on > the water. Your situation and conditions can change in the blink of an eye. > > What a horror story Ralph! I'm glad you were strong enough to pull yourself > and the boat all the way out of that situation. However, I would hardly > think to call those "conditions" completely safe in the first place. Any > time you've got a strong current (you said the water was "rushing under the > bridge"), you've got potential trouble. Whether it be the threat of being > separated from your kayak if you happen to flip and swim or, as in your > case, there are obstacles. A PFD is essential in those conditions! My point is that you never know when you suddenly will find yourself in different conditions. I certainly did not start off the day in Brooklyn contemplating that I would be in spot with quick rushing water going under a strainer (although any pier has the potential of being a strainer). Conditions were calm and pleasant until that point. The waters were glassy smooth, hardly any boat traffic on the East River which was surprising. Ideal, calm conditions until we turned the corner to enter that estuary which represented a potential and real danger at a certain point in the tidal cycle. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 09:17 PM 08/06/1999 +0700, Dave Williams wrote: >Does anyone on this list have any horror stories about paddling in truly >calm conditions, in warm water, with no current? I'm not trying to be a >wise guy here, I really would like to hear them. Hi Dave et al! Not a "horror" story exactly, but . . . One hot day last summer, at the local puddle, the Ms. -n- I were practising rescue techniques in our solo canoes (a fine way to circumvent the "NO SWIMMING" interdict). Warm water, calm, perhaps 6ft. deep, 50ft from shore. M'lady is much more nimble than I, and can readily re-enter her boat from the water. I struggle. On my Nth attempt to climb aboard, I was nearing success. Wallowing, kicking and squirming, I had managed to get most of my torso out of the water and across the midsection of the canoe, this to the accompaniment of sundry cheers, hoots, and laughter from the audience gathered on shore. With a hearty kick I thrust the boat beneath me. So mighty was my final effort that I continued right on over, face first, into the lake on the opposite side, laughing hysterically the while. Underwater laughter is never recommended, and in doing so I managed to inhale a quart or two. Thrashing blindly to the surface I wacked my head on the gunwale of my boat, which had rolled on over on top of me, and sucked in an additional gallon or so, plus a smallish trout. As a result, I found myself gagging, choking, dazed, disoriented, in the dark (under the boat), and pretty much helpless. I don't know that I would have drowned as a result of the above comedy, but I was sure glad I had the ol' PFD to keep me properly oriented while I sorted things out . . . Now I don't want you to get the idea that I am particularly religious about wearing a PFD or anything, but I am continually reminded that, as a wise man once summarized; DooDoo Doth Occur! One could do worse than to prepare for it. ByeBye! S. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Dave Williams wrote: > Does anyone on this list have any horror stories about paddling in truly > calm conditions, in warm water, with no current? I'm not trying to be a > wise guy here, I really would like to hear them. I would, too. > Dave Williams > paddler_at_loxinfo.co.th > http://paddleasia.com > Phuket, Thailand All right, I confess. That remark was just a pretext for this post; I just had to ask: how do you pronounce "Phuket"? ;-) e Elaine Harmon - eilidh_at_dc.seflin.org - eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 8/5/99 7:34:13 PM EST, Strosaker_at_aol.com writes: << I think a skilled paddler has much higher chance of getting heat stroke or heat exhaustion by wearing a wetsuit or drysuit than getting hypothermia from not wearing one. >> Very Southern Calf. I think I know why no one signed up for your trip:) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: KiAyker_at_aol.com > > Although hypothermia is often called the number one killer of sea > kayakers, I believe the real culprit deserving the title of numero uno is > drowning. I really doubt very many sea kayakers actually die of hypothermia. > They may pass out and drown as a result of hypothermia, but they do not, in > most cases, actually die of hypothermia. I can't say myself what the real culprit is. Only paraphrase from what I've read of statistics kept. I don't know if statistics are kept which indicate whether or not water was found in the lungs. > This may seem like nit picking, but > if a paddler unzips their drysuit from overheating and subsequently capsizes, > becomes hypothermic and drowns, did they die from hypothermia or hyperthermia? Well, if the paddler "subsequently capsizes" in water that can cause hypothermia and *isn't* wearing a drysuit or a wetsuit, I guess the point is moot. :-) > How many people have actually been saved by wearing pfd's? I don't want > any anecdotal stories here, but actual documented accounts of people who are > alive today because they were wearing their pfd. There is NO WAY one can > determine unequivocally that the pfd saved their lives, or that a paddler > might be alive today had they been wearing one! Nope. But there are statistics which show whether the drowning victim was wearing a pfd or not (this comment is not to be interpreted as slaming all who don't wear pfd's as I consider this, too, to be a judgement call). We often read about paddlers that are incapacitated due to hypothermia and are rescued. There are eye witnesses to these events. My question was whether anyone has ever witnessed a paddler that suffered hyperthermia (heat stroke) on the water. I am not asking as a means to ridicule those who don't wear wetsuits or drysuits. I have been known to not wear a wetsuit where others did. But it wasn't because I was concerned about heat stroke. I just didn't feel the need as much as those wearing wetsuits. I've never paddled conditions requiring a drysuit. But I am curious if anyone knows of an actual case of hyperthermia on the water due to wearing a wetsuit or drysuit. It's difficult for me to imagine a scenario where the possibility of heat stroke exists in conditions calling for a wetsuit or drysuit. I've never heard of it happening. > We each must access our own capabilities and the conditions we paddle in > and dress/equip ourselves accordingly. There are not any hard and fast rules > here. Most sea kayakers cannot reliably roll or perform self rescues. That > does not mean that those of us who can should be condemned to the constant > ridicule of our fellow paddlers because we have taken the time to build on > our skills to the point of being able to rely on them rather then on the > equipment. > > Scott > So.Cal. You get no argument from me :-) Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jackie Fenton wrote: > But I am curious if anyone knows of an actual case of hyperthermia on the > water due to wearing a wetsuit or drysuit. It's difficult for me to imagine > a scenario where the possibility of heat stroke exists in conditions calling > for a wetsuit or drysuit. I've never heard of it happening. > > Jackie > An example of conditions when one should wear a wetsuit under a drysuit would be the first few days I paddled a kayak last January. It was 55+ air temp and the water was 37 degrees by the thermometer at the dock. Being ignorant of winter paddling I got myself into the boat and was very proud that I did it without getting wet. I knew I'd be cold if I fell in but it never occurred to me that I could die in that water. We had paddled many, many miles in canoes in such conditions but it never occurred to me that it was even slightly dangerous. I was not dressed even close to safely with my jeans and sweatshirt. I even had to take the sweatshirt off and paddle in just a T-shirt because it was so warm. Out on the river, in the bright sun it was really warm. I can easily see someone who is out of shape getting seriously overheated if they are dressed for the next to freezing water and paddling hard. If they have no choice but to continue to fight a choppy river, it does do that without any wind, they either open the dry suit which can be deadly if they do go over or they overheat with who knows what results. At least in a wet suit you can just get wet to help cool you, even when there is no wind to help. I talked with local people and bought a wet suit and continued to paddle. Now I have saved enough to buy a dry suit and plan to wear it a lot when the water is cold. I'm getting a 2 piece because I'm afraid of the heating issues and if I feel I must open the jacket I can make myself safe from having the suit fill up with water if I do go over. I'm also learning to roll because my judgment is that I need this skill. Besides it looks like a lot of fun. I just hope my boat cooperates <G>. Joan Spinner *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In the recent Tsunami Rangers book "Extreme Sea Kayaking" they relate a story of a paddler suffering from hyperthermia. I don't have the book with me (I'm typing this from work), so I can't give you the page numbers or the details, but it does happen. ... but on another level, we kayak to have fun. Saftey is important, but the goal is to have a good time. If I am safe but miserable due to being too warm, my fun is compromised. Yes this line of thinking can get pushed too far and lead to under-dressed paddlers getting in serious trouble, but it is a legitamate factor in deciding what to wear. --Tim -----Original Message----- From: Jackie Fenton [mailto:jackie_at_intelenet.net] Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 5:53 PM To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] When in Rome do as the > From: Strosaker_at_aol.com <snip> > have excellent rolling and bracing skills, and I did do some bracing. But > like I have said before, I think a skilled paddler has much higher chance of > getting heat stroke or heat exhaustion by wearing a wetsuit or drysuit than > getting hypothermia from not wearing one. > > Duane Strosaker Do you know of any instances where a skilled paddler has suffered hyperthermia from wearing a wetsuit or drysuit? Since hypothermia has been called the number one killer of sea kayakers, I am curious to know if anyone has actually suffered real heat stroke (hyperthermia) from wearing a wetsuit or drysuit (not anectdotal, but documented). This is a common excuse given for not wearing a wetsuit or drysuit but I have never heard of any actual accounts. Thanks, Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
|Does anyone on this list have any horror stories about paddling in truly |calm conditions, in warm water, with no current? I'm not trying to be a |wise guy here, I really would like to hear them. I posted a trip report earlier in the year about a short three mile trip I took in Florida on December 26th of 1998. To make a long story short, it I was in protected water in the Stuart/PalmCity area, light winds and 70-80 degree air/water temps. There was a front that had been hanging out for days to the north. The weather channel said it was staying where it was. I decided to go paddling and within 1.5 miles of the ramp I noticed that the front was moving in. FAST. Very FAST. I had found a sheltered area that would have been protected, sorta from the wind and the steep waves that were building, but lightning was my main concern. I decided to try to beat the storm back to the put in. After all I'm only 1.5 miles away. The problem was that the wind direction, waves, boat traffic forced me into shallow water that increased the steepness and hight of the waves. And of course there were nice sea walls to increase the wave action and put me into a washing machine. Lots of bracing. Stroke, brace, brace, brace, stroke, etc. While I was in this washing machine with 30+ winds blowing to make things more fun I had to get under concrete bridge pilings from the new Palm City/Stuart bridge followed by a trip under the old bridges pilings and road bad. Not fun since people fish off the old bridge and I did not want to get knocked over in very shallow water filled with hooks, junk, construction debris, etc. I made it with a nice deep scratch on the bow from a bridge pilling. This all happened in 45 minutes or less. Even though the weather was fine at the put in. No real sign the front was moving. I had on my spray skirt and PFD. I'm glad I did. I had some very difficult paddling. The equipment made things easier and gave me an edge if I did get knocked down. I made it ok with the exception of the bow scratch. A dozen or so people out in small power boats where not so lucky. They had to be rescued and two people drowned. The day STARTED calm and pretty. It ended the same way. But for about 30 minutes it was not calm and pretty. Later... Dan McCarty *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Greetings, I have never had the misfortune to really need to depend on my PFD. As to the request for documented proof of saving a wearer from drowning, you are correct, there may not be documentary evidence as "near" drowning are not recorded. If ever I am paddling a backwater creek, get knocked unconscious and thrown out of my kayak after being struck by a personal watercraft doing 60mph, I will be more than happy to give you proof. Bruce Whole Earth Outfitters *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 8/6/99 8:42:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com writes: << My point is that there is no such thing as completely safe conditions on the water. Your situation and conditions can change in the blink of an eye. >> I always wear my PFD. Once while paddling with a group, most of whom were sans PFD, I took it off (it was off the Keys: we're talking glorious South Florida weather and beautifully clear and warm water) AND FELT TOTALLY NAKED!! We frequently have neophytes who don't want to wear their PFDs because they're "uncomfortable" or whatever. We just say, "Well, it does make it easier to find the body." I explain how they could swallow water or hit their head as they go over. I insist that anyone who uses my equipment (boat) must use a PFD. I recently gave in to my friend (she knows who she is) because she said she was too hot. I'm angry at her for asking (when I've told her that is my rule) and even angrier at myself for giving in. The rule remains firm if she ever wants to use one of my boats again. PS: I kept mine on the whole time. Sandy Kramer *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, 6 Aug 1999 Sandykayak_at_aol.com wrote: > I always wear my PFD. Once while paddling with a group, most of whom were > sans PFD, I took it off (it was off the Keys: we're talking glorious South > Florida weather and beautifully clear and warm water) AND FELT TOTALLY > NAKED!! I heard about that. People were all saying, "Did you see Sandy the other day, totally naked in her boat? She looked great.... > I insist that anyone who uses my equipment (boat) must use a PFD. I recently > gave in to my friend (she knows who she is) because she said she was too hot. You still haven't gotten the point that as a matter of fact, I have NO IDEA who I am! ;-) OK, I confess. In fact, I'm about to post a PFD-related item entitled "The Dumbest Thing I Ever Did (Paddling). e Elaine Harmon - eilidh_at_dc.seflin.org - eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Chris Kohut wrote: Snip > What kills paddlers .........is presumption. Right on. I'll be one of the first people in line propounding the idea that your skill set should exceed the conditions that you paddle in, but the whole idea of "safety gear" in my opinion is that this is the stuff that you can use when your little part of the world turns nasty and ugly and things just ain't lookin' so bright anymore. In other words, when something unexpected and unpleasant happens to you or your paddling companion(s). If you _know_ that you won't need that drysuit, wetsuit, pfd, extra water bottle, first aid kit, flare, etc (insert any other piece of safety gear) then by all means don't carry or wear it, but think about it carefully.....accidents aren't something that we can predict or plan. It's one thing to be confident in your skills and it's an entirely different thing when the unexpected and unimaginable happens. I guess it all comes down to something that could be called "reasonable precaution". The definition of reasonable is always going to vary depending on the individual and the conditions. just hoping that we all "paddle wise" Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> I have never paddled with my drysuit unzipped or pulled down. If you're going to use a piece of gear then use it properly. It's probably better to not use it at all than to use it in a way that it was never intended to be used. Goes pretty much for anything, not just drysuits. Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska >> I agree 100% with Dave. When I get hot in my drysuit -- and it does happen -- I roll or dip first one side into the water, then the other (I don't get water spots on my sunglasses that way). I never unzip the dry suit except on land. If the water isn't cold enough to cool me off that way, then I don't need that much protection, and I'm usually wearing something more appropriate. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>All right, I confess. That remark was just a pretext for this post; I just >had to ask: how do you pronounce "Phuket"? ;-) e > >Elaine Harmon ... mmm...must rhyme with Nantucket... Live long and paddle, Albert Wang *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
We've been through this all before. But what the heck; Tomckayak_at_aol.com writes: << Very Southern Calf. I think I know why no one signed up for your trip:) >> This is precisely the type of response I was anticipating when I wrote, "Most sea kayakers cannot reliably roll or perform self rescues. That does not mean that those of us who can should be condemned to the constant ridicule of our fellow paddlers because we have taken the time to build on our skills to the point of being able to rely on them rather then on the equipment." Tomckayak_at_aol.com again: <> Since you are not taking any chances I must assume that you always wear a helmet as well???????????? Outfit3029 writes: <<If ever I am paddling a backwater creek, get knocked unconscious and thrown out of my kayak after being struck by a personal watercraft doing 60mph, I will be more than happy to give you proof.>> Again, since one never knows when this all too common occurrence might happen, I must once again assume that you ALWAYS wear a helmet when paddling!!!??? Shoni writes: <> Obviously, for the sake of your family, you ALWAYS wear a helmet when your in your kayak. I mean, one can never be too safe. You have to be on the constant lookout for those rouge jet skiers, and rocks on the bottom, other out of control kayakers in waves and surf, and who knows what else! And of course it goes without saying that if you have ever taken any kids along kayaking they are ALWAYS wearing helmets as well. It doesn't matter what kind of kayaking we are talking about, or where we are paddling, since even in a swimming pool it's possible to fall out of the boat and hit your head on the side. Come on people, grow up! I'm all for safety. I really am! But we each accept our own level of risk. Some of us apparently do it better then others. If I choose to paddle without a drysuit or a pfd, that's my choice. I consider myself to have a fairly high degree of skill, and more importantly, good common sense. I have NEVER been in what I would consider a life threatening situation, because I avoid them. You have to asses your own abilities and make your own decisions accordingly. If you judge yourself by what I do then your an idiot! That is not to say that what I do is wrong! I know what I'm doing! I grew up on the ocean. I have been teaching kayaking for about ten years now. I have been paddling for over thirty years. I practice constantly. I try to teach my students to err on the side of caution. But one does not have to ALWAYS wear a drysuit/wetsuit/pfd/carry flares/carry radio, etc., etc. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the kayakers greatest strength is in one's good judgment and common sense. It's NOT the skills or equipment, but what you do with them. If you feel that you always need to wear a drysuit --- then you probably do. And if you DO need to always wear a drysuit, then I really hope you always will. However, just because YOU need it does not mean that I do. I realize there is a fine line here in trying to determine which one's are genuine and which one's are accidents looking for a place to happen. I certainly agree that we should encourage EVERYONE to wear wetsuits/drysuits/pfd's. After all, if you have to ask, then you probably aren't skilled enough/experianced enough/smart enough to go without. However, I like to think that the people on this list know enough to recognize that there are some of us out there who really do know what we are doing, and we should not be chastised for it. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
To KiAyker Maybe there should be a law to make you wear your PFD, helmet, and sp*ns*ns everytime you kayak ;-) Actually, I couldn't agree with you more but I do hope as an instructor you are setting a good example for your students. I'm afraid some of them may decide they want to look like a kayaker who depends on skill rather than equipment, before they develop the skill. I believe in safety but I also believe in being comfortable so I am not going to wear clothing that won't allow me to paddle at an exercise pace without overheating unless there is a serious threat to my safety if I don't. In otherwords if I'm just a little bit safer but trade away a lot of comfort to get there that's not a trade I'm willing to make. Same goes for the cost of equipment, one looks at the cost/benefit ratio. I'm for everybody choosing their own level of acceptable risk but I hope paddlers understand the risks. To many times I hear things like "My boat is wood, it floats so I don't need extra flotation", or "I don't plan to capsize". These paddlers need education so I'm all for those who promote their own favorite safety methods and talismans as long as they aren't really making themselves or their followers less safe. Hyperthermia is less common than hypothermia because usually you can do something about it, often as easy as slowing down or wetting yourself down in some way. I spent much of a 14 mile kayak race one 99 degree day taking strokes where I dipped my hand in the water and splattered myself regularly by scooping and flipping water on my head and torso with my last three fingers as I took a stroke. If I was wearing a drysuit this would not have worked. Still I always had the choice of slowing down it was only a race. However, there are times when one might not have that choice and the drysuit wearer will be at greater risk. Say you are approaching an island after a long crossing and you find that the current is sweeping you past the island and out to sea (or better yet into a vast area of breakers it a tide rip). There is no way I could paddle as hard for any distance with a drysuit on as without. With a drysuit I would be faced with making the choice to paddling hard and risk heat stroke or slowing down and risk hypothermia and then drowning (even in the drysuit) as the result of capsizing in the tide rip. Drysuits have caused me to miss my roll because of being floated up to one side, but I think I have that bugaboo licked now. Still paddling solo and using "rotary cooling" to cool off in a drysuit cold end up putting the drysuit wearer in the water due to a failed roll. The cooler "underdressed for the water temperature" paddler of equal skill who didn't have to capsize to cool down might be in less risk here. Lets keep discussing the risks and comparing notes but if somebody doesn't make the same choices as you try to see their point of view. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com -----Original Message----- From: KiAyker_at_aol.com <KiAyker_at_aol.com> To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Friday, August 06, 1999 9:46 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] When in Rome do as the > We've been through this all before. But what the heck; > > Tomckayak_at_aol.com writes: > ><< Very Southern Calf. > I think I know why no one signed up for your trip:) >> > > This is precisely the type of response I was anticipating when I wrote, >"Most sea kayakers cannot reliably roll or perform self rescues. That does >not mean that those of us who can should be condemned to the constant >ridicule of our fellow paddlers because we have taken the time to build on >our skills to the point of being able to rely on them rather then on the >equipment." > >Tomckayak_at_aol.com again: > ><> > > Since you are not taking any chances I must assume that you always wear a >helmet as well???????????? > >Outfit3029 writes: > ><<If ever I am paddling a backwater creek, get knocked unconscious and thrown >out of my kayak after being struck by a personal watercraft doing 60mph, I >will be more than happy to give you proof.>> > > Again, since one never knows when this all too common occurrence might >happen, I must once again assume that you ALWAYS wear a helmet when >paddling!!!??? > >Shoni writes: > ><> > > Obviously, for the sake of your family, you ALWAYS wear a helmet when your >in your kayak. I mean, one can never be too safe. You have to be on the >constant lookout for those rouge jet skiers, and rocks on the bottom, other >out of control kayakers in waves and surf, and who knows what else! And of >course it goes without saying that if you have ever taken any kids along >kayaking they are ALWAYS wearing helmets as well. It doesn't matter what kind >of kayaking we are talking about, or where we are paddling, since even in a >swimming pool it's possible to fall out of the boat and hit your head on the >side. > > Come on people, grow up! I'm all for safety. I really am! But we each >accept our own level of risk. Some of us apparently do it better then others. >If I choose to paddle without a drysuit or a pfd, that's my choice. I >consider myself to have a fairly high degree of skill, and more importantly, >good common sense. I have NEVER been in what I would consider a life >threatening situation, because I avoid them. You have to asses your own >abilities and make your own decisions accordingly. If you judge yourself by >what I do then your an idiot! That is not to say that what I do is wrong! I >know what I'm doing! I grew up on the ocean. I have been teaching kayaking >for about ten years now. I have been paddling for over thirty years. I >practice constantly. I try to teach my students to err on the side of >caution. But one does not have to ALWAYS wear a drysuit/wetsuit/pfd/carry >flares/carry radio, etc., etc. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, >the kayakers greatest strength is in one's good judgment and common sense. >It's NOT the skills or equipment, but what you do with them. > If you feel that you always need to wear a drysuit --- then you probably >do. And if you DO need to always wear a drysuit, then I really hope you >always will. However, just because YOU need it does not mean that I do. I >realize there is a fine line here in trying to determine which one's are >genuine and which one's are accidents looking for a place to happen. I >certainly agree that we should encourage EVERYONE to wear >wetsuits/drysuits/pfd's. After all, if you have to ask, then you probably >aren't skilled enough/experianced enough/smart enough to go without. However, >I like to think that the people on this list know enough to recognize that >there are some of us out there who really do know what we are doing, and we >should not be chastised for it. > >Scott >So.Cal. > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: "Matt Broze" <mkayaks_at_oz.net> > Maybe there should be a law to make you wear your PFD, helmet, and sp*ns*ns > everytime you kayak ;-) Actually, I couldn't agree with you more but I do > hope as an instructor you are setting a good example for your students. I'm > afraid some of them may decide they want to look like a kayaker who depends > on skill rather than equipment, before they develop the skill. > I believe in safety but I also believe in being comfortable so I am not > going to wear clothing that won't allow me to paddle at an exercise pace > without overheating unless there is a serious threat to my safety if I > don't. In otherwords if I'm just a little bit safer but trade away a lot of > comfort to get there that's not a trade I'm willing to make. <snip> > side, but I think I have that bugaboo licked now. Still paddling solo and > using "rotary cooling" to cool off in a drysuit cold end up putting the > drysuit wearer in the water due to a failed roll. The cooler "underdressed > for the water temperature" paddler of equal skill who didn't have to > capsize to cool down might be in less risk here. Lets keep discussing the > risks and comparing notes but if somebody doesn't make the same choices as > you try to see their point of view. > Matt Broze > http://www.marinerkayaks.com Hi Matt, Thanks for a very thoughtful response that represents both points of view. I can more readily accept the position "because I have been kayaking for a very long time and found this works best for me" rather than an unsubstantiated claim stating skilled kayakers are more at risk of heat stroke than hypothermia. It would be helpful to hear from paddlers the different methods they use for cooling off or staying cool while wearing a wetsuit or drysuit which does not put them at risk of capsizing. Having never been hyperthermic or near hyperthermic when wearing a wetsuit, I can't answer this one, but would like to know what others do to stay cool. I think hydrating before a trip begins and continuing to take in adequate fluids would go a long way in preventing hyperthermia or heat exhaustion. Thanks again for your thoughtful response, Matt. You've given me more to think about (as has Scott and others). Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Does the BCU require that a paddler be able to paddle with a feathered paddle to become certified (at some star level)? Cheers, Dave Dave Williams paddler_at_loxinfo.co.th http://paddleasia.com Phuket, Thailand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
There are days here in South Florida when the water is like glass, no wind, and no prospect of any sea conditions which would create a challenge, and it is almost too hot to breath, that it makes sense to take off my PFD and keep wet. Except when there is a possibility of thunderstorms. I know it would present more of a challenge than I am willing to ask of my friends to expect them to rescue me after a lightning strike if I was not wearing a PFD.I have never tried to board an unconscious person to a kayak, but I have to a sailboat, and it is NOT easy. A 100 lb person feels like 200 lb, etc. There is not anything to get a grip on and every time you loose your grip they go under water if they are not wearing a PFD. You end up feeling very helpless. I guess it comes down to an intelligent thought process and being accountable for ones own actions. PM --- Chris & Ellen Kohut <chriskayak_at_earthlink.net> wrote: > KUDOS to you Ralph for interjecting a bit of sanity > into the conversation! > If I were to ask for a show of hands as to who > thought that wearing a PFD was > a pain-in-the-arse at least > sometimes..............well, I couldn't very well > see > them on the bulletin board, could I? But I bet > there would be a lot!!!!! > When I feel the urge to slip my PFD under the > deck bungies.........I simply > think of all the stronger paddlers who have > drowned........I think of all of the > paddlers who were more clever than I who have > drowned........I think of all of the > paddlers with better equipment and sleek fiberglass > (glass fiber, as they call > it), sexy british seakayaks who have drowned > .......... I think of my darling > wife.........I think of my own doe-eyed > children.......I think of my sainted > snowy-haired sainted mother ............if that all > doesn't work.........I pull a > nose hair. ...............And I put the damned > PFD on. > > What kills paddlers .........is > presumption. > > rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > > > KiAyker_at_aol.com wrote: > > > > > How many people have actually been saved by > wearing pfd's? I don't want > > > any anecdotal stories here, but actual > documented accounts of people who are > > > alive today because they were wearing their pfd. > There is NO WAY one can > > > determine unequivocally that the pfd saved their > lives, or that a paddler > > > might be alive today had they been wearing one! > > > > ME!!! > > > > I always have worn my PFD period. One day about > nine years ago on > > relatively calm waters my PFD saved my life, again > period. Below is the > > documentation. You will just have to trust my > assessment and analysis of > > the situation that the PFD unquivocally saved my > life. > > > > I was paddling on the upper East River in NYC with > some other paddlers > > including a visitor from the West Coast. One of > them is a friend who > > never wore a PFD and swore he could get his out > from under deck bungee > > and on in a jiffy if he ever were to go over (and > hang on to his paddle > > and boat at the same time...) We decided to cross > on something called > > the Bronx Kill to get over to the Harlem River and > back down the East > > River to our put-in in Brooklyn. > > > > The Bronx Kill is a small estuary that separates > Randall's Island from > > the Bronx. It is navigable by kayak only at > certain times of the tidal > > cycles. The reason is that the there are several > low bridges including > > one that carries utilities to the island and the > water has to be at a > > certain level to give you enough daylight to go > under. > > > > I was first in the group and paddled up to the low > bridge and could see > > that the water was running through and under it > too high for clearance > > and I paddled back a hundred feet or so to tell > the others. They > > started portaging on the two banks. I was > deciding which one I wanted > > to go to and in looking at them I failed to > realize that the current was > > moving me swiftly back toward the low bridge. The > next thing I knew I > > was pinned against it quite strongly. I was in > my Klepper single. > > > > I went to push off and inadvertently dipped the > upstream side of my > > kayak into the fast moving water. The next thing > I knew I was hanging > > upside down. I wet exited (I understand from > later discussions with > > knowledgeable paddlers that even if it were a more > rollable boat and I > > could roll it, it is nearly impossible to roll > when so pinned as the > > boat gets stuck during the roll and won't come up > fully). I knew enough > > to come up on the upstream side and my PFD gave me > enough bouyancy to do > > so. I clung to the upside down kayak and here is > where the PFD saved my > > life. > > > > The water was now rushing under the bridge. It > was sucking my body > > under with quite a lot of force, my legs were > being pushed well under > > the boat. Without the buoyancy of the PFD I > simply could not have been > > riding high enough in the water to hang on for > dear life to the boat and > > surely would have been sucked under the bridge. > The bridge had all > > sorts of tie rods sticking out, old wire trash > cans thrown in by vandals > > and who knows what else to ensnarl me underwater. > There would have been > > no way to put on the PFD or have the time to if I > had not had it on. > > > > It was nearly impossible to swim away since before > one could get even > > one or two strokes and some momentum against the > current you would have > > been pulled under the boat and bridge. I managed > to slowly with some > > foot kicks to swim the boat toward shore rubbing > it all the way along > > the rough concrete surface (thank god for good > strong abrasion resistant > > hypalon). It was only about 60 feet or so. > > > > Again, I want to repeat that this was a calm day, > calm water, September > > air and water temperatures which are both quite > pleasant here. > > > > My point is that there is no such thing as > completely safe conditions on > > the water. Your situation and conditions can > change in the blink of an > > eye. > > > > ralph diaz > > > > > > > > -- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter > > PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 > > Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com > > "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > *************************************************************************** > > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > > Subscriptions: > paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > > > *************************************************************************** > > > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: > paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:01 PDT