Doug wrote >>>highly skilled paddler in a Sirius, with a skeg, in a quartering sea with a >>>30 knot gale. The man never paddled the kayak again after that trip (he had >>>done previous trips in it too) and now paddles a Gulfstream. The straight >>>tracking former kayak would run off the wave, and too much effort was >>>required to bring it back on course. The Gulfstream type of hull allows for >>>easy leaning and fast course correction, though his newer boat is a bit >>>slower. >I would say that I prefer the Sirius, from the times I've tried it. The >wider Gulfstream, in comparison, just doesn't put you "in touch" with the >water conditions as much. Why would you prefer the Sirius if it requires too much effort to bring back on course? If the Gulfstream hull is easy leaning and fast course correcting, why are you more in touch with the water in the Sirius? >This is unusual in that people >who buy Brit type boats, once having made their purchase, generally are >very satisfied. Because of a flaw in human nature most people are very satisfied with whatever they have just bought. Did you ever have a new owner of a boat or car tell you it was a foolish purchase? (I certainly don't mean that buying a Brit boat is foolish.) >I do know that there are still some hold-outs around here who still paddle >the deep "V" hulled Baidarka of yesteryear from P&H, precisely because they >do track so well for point to point exposed coast cruising. They don't seem >to need a rudder, and with the up-turned ends, are great at backing up >through kelp beds in a choppy sea -- but, they are very tippy. Does this straight tracking boat run off the wave and require much effort to get back, as you describe the Sirius? Is it "straight trackingness" that makes it run off? I consider my GTS straight tracking but it doesn't run off at 20 to 25 knots following conditions. The wider >Orion is a popular boat with extreme paddlers, as it offers stability for >tall paddlers, tracks well with a bit of edging/leaning, and with its >higher gunwales, once leaned over, rides like its on a rail -- something I >can't do as well in my low decked Nordkapp. Shouldn't a boat carve a turn when it is leaned over, rather than riding like it is on a rail? Is the fact that you can't do this as well much of an issue? Why choose a Nordkapp when the other boats you mention do do this well? >The Romany performs well in >that kind of situation too, as do some of the Arluk series. However, I >always go further in a wind storm, faster, and usually beat my bigger meat >head friends that try to beat me through 5 knot currents going up hill in >their other boats. How do you account for this increased uphill efficiency of the Nordkapp? Later on you say that various North American boats are more efficient than Brittish ones. >the CD GTS, as I may have mentioned >to you in a previous e-mail, is one of the better all-around kayaks I know >of, and I'm not saying that because they are made here in Victoria, BC. >Their predictability is something that, while subjective, probably accounts >for its high sales. In quartering seas, there are no sudden turn-turtle >surprises. For me, competent but less than expert, this predictability is of prime importance. Especially for solo excursions in rough water. My Mariner Express is similarly predictable, though totally different from my GTS. > my experience suggests most GTS users deploy rudders at that >point. (20knots) Bear in mind that up until that approximate sea-state induced by >those kind of winds, > This raises a technique question: When conditions start to exceed 20 knots, in quartering conditions, and I lower my rudder, I lean less and use less paddle strokes for correction. I end up relying on the rudder because it is so much easier than all the corrections I was doing moments before. I just use my energy to go straight. Experimenting, I might raise the rudder again, and find I am OK, having more fun perhaps, but expending way more energy. Do you generally employ your Nordkapp rudder at some level of wind speed? >Reflective micro-management does come with time, practice, and >a person's natural predilection, if they have it, to work with their boat. >Not everybody does, and this is why Matt doesn't sell everybody in the >world his designs. > I would be most interested in your report of a rough water comparison between the Mariner II and your Nordkapp. >Without a >rudder (or skeg) and a disadvantage of not being able to edge/lean >significantly due to reduced gunwale buoyancy, I find I used to flounder >and run off course. I developed huge muscles in my earlier youth, storm >paddling (before my rudder installation) from the sweep strokes required. >I've landed on the beach with my arm muscles actually quivering from the >over-use. I've ran into a number of Norkapp owners who have paddled around >Vancouver Island, only paddling on one side, as they put it. > This makes the Nordkapp sound terrible. Why put up with this when there are so many boats with gunwale boyancy that don't require one sided paddling? What is it that makes the Nordkapp such a great rough water boat as its reputations says? >If you are looking for the perfect boat, forget it. You may find a perfect >Violin if you have the money, but not a perfect kayak. Don't fall into the >trap my friend who is selling his Sirius and who bought the Gulfstream did. >I think he may very well, be looking for the perfect boat forever. I am looking for the perfect boat. But it is the journey not the goal that counts. Plus it is great fun trading boats every year or two. > >I can't find my notes I was keeping on some other kayak designs. Anyway, I keep >a record of paddler's comments about their kayaks in a binder, and I'll try >and find it ASAP. Sound extremely interesting. >Until then, I better keep my little cake-hole shut!> Don't do this. Great post! Lots of food for thought. Thanks Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This is a long post between Jerry and I. You are welcome to join in. My opinions, expressed or even implied, are just that, mine. I am not a expert with respect to design of kayaks. I'm not really even knowlegable as many PW'ers on this subject. And I know some people think I'm a goof, but we all have to be good at something! Gerald's post and my replies are broken down for you, if you must read: > >Doug's original post: >>>>highly skilled paddler in a Sirius, with a skeg, in a quartering sea with >>>>a 30 knot gale. The man never paddled the kayak again after that trip (he >>>>had done previous trips in it too) and now paddles a Gulfstream. The straight >>>>tracking former kayak would run off the wave, and too much effort was >>>>required to bring it back on course. The Gulfstream type of hull allows >>>>for easy leaning and fast course correction, though his newer boat is a bit >>>>slower. Doug's subsequent post: >>I would say that I prefer the Sirius, from the times I've tried it. The >>wider Gulfstream, in comparison, just doesn't put you "in touch" with the >>water conditions as much. Jerry's query: >Why would you prefer the Sirius if it requires too much effort to bring back >on course? If the Gulfstream hull is easy leaning and fast course >correcting, why are you more in touch with the water in the Sirius? I would prefer the Sirius because it is more what I am used to. I am a short (5'-7") stocky guy. I do not have a lot of suppleness and flexibility. I do not have long arms to do a lot of dexterous paddle play required of a more maneuverable sea kayak. I've been out with guys in some fierce, mixed tide rip, wind conditions. The taller guys with the longer arms and skill did things with their Capelas, Gulfstreams, Skerrys and Orions I only fantasize about (no Freudian overtones intended!). I am fairly top heavy too, so find it further difficult to do a lot of extreme edging/leaning. A wider kayak like the Gulfstream admittedly would give me more options in this regard because of the increase in stability, but I just can't get used to the kayak's bigger "presence" beneath me. I would be more "in touch" with the water in the Sirius, for me, because I like a narrow kayak that responds to the slightest hip movement. This is something only a kayaker with a narrow boat will understand, and is a bit of a mystery to the wider kayak owner who does not understand this feature of dynamic stability. Being "in touch" simply means you sense every movement of the kayak in the waves and can respond instantly - not every ones cup of tea. Having the ability with a more maneuverable kayak to respond to course correction needs is a different aspect of being "in touch", but an important one and the one you are questioning. Part of the problem with the Sirius is when it is heavily loaded with a greater proportion of weight in the stern during following seas. It tends to get pushed around at this point. I think if my friend had run more weight in the front, then the problem would have been less severe. Of course, loading bow heaving in following seas causes a different problem not always addressed by the usual debate on loading -- their is greater tendency to bury the bow in the trough, as it submerges into the back of the wave (the wave in front of you). Unloaded, the Sirius is easier to course correct as its deep "V" hull is not at such a greater depth. Knowing me, I'd probably put a rudder on the Sirius too! Doug commented earlier about his friend who is selling the Sirius: >>This is unusual in that people who buy Brit type boats, once having made their >>purchase, generally are very satisfied. Jerry queries further: >Because of a flaw in human nature most people are very satisfied with >whatever they have just bought. Did you ever have a new owner of a boat or >car tell you it was a foolish purchase? (I certainly don't mean that buying >a Brit boat is foolish.) The Brits aren't totally foolish, after all, they did eventually disestablish the Monarchy! And more recently, spokespersons for the sport of sea kayaking in the UK have actually admitted that they did not invent the modern sport of sea kayaking :-) Seriously, you do have a point above, but I would modify it further by suggesting that most people are very satisfied with whatever it is that _they get used to_. My original intent with my comment was that British boats generally, and some of the more North American esoteric type kayaks, are usually purchased with a lot of prior thought and consideration. They are hard to get a hold of for trying out, expensive, often heavy to lift, and the type of person making this kind of buying decision usually does so fully informed and with an intent to keep it. Doug mentioned earlier that: >>I do know that there are still some hold-outs around here who still paddle >>the deep "V" hulled Baidarka of yesteryear from P&H, precisely because they >>do track so well for point to point exposed coast cruising. They don't seem >>to need a rudder, and with the up-turned ends, are great at backing up >>through kelp beds in a choppy sea -- but, they are very tippy. So, Jerry asks, of course: >Does this straight tracking boat run off the wave and require much effort to >get back, as you describe the Sirius? Is it "straight trackingness" that >makes it run off? I consider my GTS straight tracking but it doesn't run >off at 20 to 25 knots following conditions. The old Baidarka (out of production now, I believe) was a kayak with a full "V" running its entire length, though it obviously lost a bit of the "V" amidship. It tracks very well, and was known as a stiff tracking kayak requiring lots of leaning to turn it. Owners needed to learn to be *very* proactive to stay on course in a bigger following sea. You wold need to anticipate *just before* running off course commenced, and bring it back in-line. Interestingly, the folks at CD have confided in me that the GTS is a better all-around tracking preformed than the Extreme. The Extreme is a fast boat however, though the Expedition is faster, but not as lively a boat. Getting back to the "straight trackingness" of the Sirius being a causative factor, man, this is a huge paradox. Why does a stiff tracking kayak "run off" in certain following sea/wind conditions? Unfortunately, I am not a navel architecture. Neither is Matt Broze or John Winters, with all due respect to them. They have helped us unlock some of the mysteries and explain some of the technical issues. Matt is an engineer, a number cruncher. Matt has made a lot of claims with respect to the desirability of a more maneuverable kayak in quartering, following seas, where the paddler makes small, corrective actions to keep on course. While I'm not sure how much actual paddling John has done (no negativity implied here), I do know Matt spends a fair amount of time, when he is able, out on the exposed, open coast in a variety of conditions, and that does speak absolute volumes to me about his claims, theories, advice and ultimately his designs. I don't have the answers, and never claimed too. Another Doug plug: >>The wider Orion is a popular boat with extreme paddlers, as it offers stability for >>tall paddlers, tracks well with a bit of edging/leaning, and with its higher >>gunwales, once leaned over, rides like its on a rail -- something I can't do as well >>in my low decked Nordkapp. And Jerry asks: >Shouldn't a boat carve a turn when it is leaned over, rather than riding >like it is on a rail? Is the fact that you can't do this as well much of an >issue? Why choose a Nordkapp when the other boats you mention do do this >well? What I meant here is that in a following, quartering sea, in order to counter-act the forces, you would normally lean or edge the kayak over so that the greater bilge presented would help keep the kayak on the intended course - standard operating procedures for those inclined. Holding this position can be taxing in a kayak with low gunwales, as the secondary stability is not as strong as the kayak with more volume in that hull to deck joint area. Some people like the extra volume, some don't. Paddler's preference, like everything else. It is also a question of fit, and other things like a paddlers weight. Fortunately, people like Andree Hurely, Matt, and others are spreading the message about boat suitability and fit. I've noticed in my years of paddling with others and bumping into others on the water, that a good 25% of paddlers, if not more, are in the "wrong kayak". I'm short torsoed, so I like a low deck. I am a bit heavy at 195 to 210 (varies between seasons), my self-modified Nordkapp is about 85lbs, so with a full load, there is very little windage. Side slip is minimal, and high winds are a joy! Something like a Romany would track better (easier to corse correct, given that both were rudderless), but has more windage. My biggest problem is heavily breaking following seas. Many of us know what it is like to surf down in front of the crest of a wave, only to broach slightly, and then realize the next wave bearing down on you is going to cause a full broach unless you get in back perpendicular. I think the more maneuverable kayak, or the one with lots of gunwale is easier to get lined back up, but I was not willing to give up the low windage, so went with the rudder option. Yes, if my rudder breaks in these conditions, given that my Nordkapp does not have the modified keel at the back, I would be in trouble. In fact, this has happened to me on a trip near the Bunsby Islands with a 35 knot gale, and I had *great* difficulty course correcting and keeping up with my friends who were trying to make a run for cover. Doug pontificated here, too: >>The Romany performs well in that kind of situation too, as do some of the Arluk >>series. However, I always go further in a wind storm, faster, and usually beat my >>bigger meat head friends that try to beat me through 5 knot currents going up hill in >>their other boats. Jerry ponders: >How do you account for this increased uphill efficiency of the Nordkapp? >Later on you say that various North American boats are more efficient than >Brittish ones. Many N.A. boats have a flatter bottom profile. for day paddling at least, some of them are a joy to paddle. I think this flat water efficiency is where John Winters excels in terms of tweaking performance, IMNSHO. The specific aspect I was referring to was a kayak's ability to have a nice "glide". You don't hear many people talk about it. I think I recall PW's Nick Gill mention it of his Mariner Coaster, though I'm not familiar with its hull profile. In my original post, I was contrasting two notions. The first was that there are some very efficient kayak designs out there that have really nice glide. You take a stroke, and the boat doesn't come to a sudden stall. The other notion was that a good rough water boat must have a sea-kindly ride, which can be mutually exclusive with a good gliding kayak, due to static stability compared to dynamic stability. Perhaps some kayaks have both. I wish someone would run a symposium on an exposed coastline, with all the various kayaks for trying out. BTW, by meathead friends, I meant the other guys were all strong paddlers, so comparisons were similar in terms of strength. I don't know why the Nordkapp does so well. Narrowness? More determination? More experience reading the eddylines, backeddy helping currents? I know a couple of the fellows looked into buying Nordkapps after that, but after paddling them, didn't like the low foredeck and how deeply the kayak sank given their weight. More Doug plugs: >>the CD GTS, as I may have mentioned to you in a previous e-mail, is one of the better >>all-around kayaks I know of, and I'm not saying that because they are made here in >>Victoria, BC. Their predictability is something that, while subjective, probably >>accounts for its high sales. In quartering seas, there are no sudden turn-turtle >>surprises. Jerry states: >For me, competent but less than expert, this predictability is of prime >importance. Especially for solo excursions in rough water. My Mariner >Express is similarly predictable, though totally different from my GTS. Doug said in his original post: >> my experience suggests most GTS users deploy rudders at that >>point. (20knots) Bear in mind that up until that approximate sea-state >induced by those kind of winds <snip> Jerry rises to the occasion: >This raises a technique question: When conditions start to exceed 20 knots, >in quartering conditions, and I lower my rudder, I lean less and use less >paddle strokes for correction. I end up relying on the rudder because it is >so much easier than all the corrections I was doing moments before. I just >use my energy to go straight. Experimenting, I might raise the rudder >again, and find I am OK, having more fun perhaps, but expending way more >energy. Do you generally employ your Nordkapp rudder at some level of wind >speed? Following, quartering seas are a pain for me at about the range you mention, though I can deal with it, without the rudder. With the rudder, I "lock and load" and go fer it! With rudder down, even a quartering sea or wind propels me along at great speeds - who needs a bloody kite! With a big sea directly astern, man, can I move. I also have made a rudder that is similar to the one found on the Valley Canoe doubles - it is very long, with a lot of drag, so I try not to use it unless I have to. Also, a front quartering wind is also a real pain in the toosh, and I will deploy my rudder at about 15 knots in order to save energy. it is a matter of safety for me. What happens if condition deteriorate severely, and I can't get off the water for a while. If I've expanded too much energy sweeping and doing other correctives action, I might not have reserve strength left. Doug reflected earlier: >>Reflective micro-management does come with time, practice, and >>a person's natural predilection, if they have it, to work with their boat. >>Not everybody does, and this is why Matt doesn't sell everybody in the >>world his designs. And Jerry: >I would be most interested in your report of a rough water comparison >between the Mariner II and your Nordkapp. Me too. I wish that wascaly wabbit, Matt, would let me borrow one. I have a modest proposal about all this, which I shall post on a separate e-mail after I finish this one. I had a huge turkey dinner today (Thanksgiving in Canuk land), so I'm vegging out in front of the computer, unable to move much! Yes, I am a pig - and an "animal" when it comes to equipment and boats - that's why nobody lends me their boats anymore. Doug, with ruddy, disloyal diatribe, said: >>Without a rudder (or skeg) and a disadvantage of not being able to edge/lean >>significantly due to reduced gunwale buoyancy, I find I used to flounder >>and run off course. I developed huge muscles in my earlier youth, storm >>paddling (before my rudder installation) from the sweep strokes required. >>I've landed on the beach with my arm muscles actually quivering from the >>over-use. I've ran into a number of Norkapp owners who have paddled around >>Vancouver Island, only paddling on one side, as they put it. Jerry pops his eyeballs open: >This makes the Nordkapp sound terrible. Why put up with this when there are >so many boats with gunwale boyancy that don't require one sided paddling? >What is it that makes the Nordkapp such a great rough water boat as its >reputations says? Hey, if you like the sea, why not be closer to it? Actually, it is a very popular kayak in the UK, as is the replacement, "Nordkapp Jubilee". They have rough conditions over there. I think most of the recent Nordkapp's come with skegs these days. the one-sided paddlers had the older version with the fiberglass modified skegged hull, not the drop down type. To answer your question, I don't know. I do know that Chris Duff is heading for a New Zealand S Island circumnavigation, and he is leaving behind his trusty steade, his Nordkapp, and taking instead his new Romany - the disloyal bugger! One thing is for sure, my Norkapp has got me home from some terrible seas. I know I have a reputation for "spinning a good yarn", but I really do go out in some awful stuff off the Island here. And I wish you could have seen the Nordkapp perform off the Storm Islands. Dave's Arluk was almost hurled backwards a few times in the heavily breaking cross seas during the height of the gale. My Nordkapp was flawless. It pierced through the deepwater breaking waves into the full gale headwind, hour after endless hour. The seas were pounding so hard, the cover on my recessed Ritchie compass was pulled backwards. I had added a modified "V" hull and inner and outer keel. The kayak was as stiff as a titanium missile. The deep-draft rudder was flawless, allowing me to keep a course off the wind a bit, towing a heavy, wide Piceses with an incapacitated paddler. Ralph says a hour is the most anyone can tow a paddler before exhaustion sets in. I towed for endless hours, and I sure could not have done that in a wider, higher boat with lots of buoyancy, or one where I was bashing my knuckles on the high foredeck. I mention this, because I had spent years modifying my Nordkapp, taking a lot of guff from friends, relatives, and kayak retailers, but it all came together that fateful day; my kayak was perfect for me that day. BTW, my muscles are a lot smaller, if any left at all, since I installed my rudder :-( I saw Derek Hutchinson last week at Ocean River Sports, he said "Doug, is that you? Is that the same young strapping lad I taught 20 years ago? You have put on a bit of weight, lad, you have!" Yeah, well so had Derek! Doug stated perfectly: >>If you are looking for the perfect boat, forget it. You may find a perfect >>Violin if you have the money, but not a perfect kayak. Don't fall into the >>trap my friend who is selling his Sirius and who bought the Gulfstream did. >>I think he may very well, be looking for the perfect boat forever. Jerry rebounds: >I am looking for the perfect boat. But it is the journey not the goal that >counts. Plus it is great fun trading boats every year or two. Sounds good to me Jerry, if that is what you want to do. I'd like a fleet of kayaks, and probably could have bought some different ones, given the money I've put into rebuilding and modifying may Nordkapp over the years. My friend with the Baidarka, bought two spares a few years ago, as he liked the kayak so much and wanted future boats as each succeeding one wore out. With fiberglass raw product prices skyrocketing worldwide, he made a preemptive strike, and got two more before prices went way high (and the Baidarka went out of production). He hasn't really tried any other boats, but is so happy and used to his, that he will not change. Another friend of mine who makes his own kayaks from cheap door skins, covered with epoxy and cloth, took his latest design from a Sirius. He heavily modified the original dimensions, put the skeg box much closer to the cockpit, and went hard chine. I got to tell you, some of the seas we have paddled together, including quartering seas from astern, were terrible. His kayak performed so well, I was convinced his boat was perfect. it is his fourth boat, and he plans on modifying his next one, correcting some of the faults he feels exist on his current design. Most of us don't have the time to tweak a perfect design like he is doing. Doug teases Jerry: >>I can't find my notes I was keeping on some other kayak designs. Anyway, I >>keep a record of paddler's comments about their kayaks in a binder, and I'll try >>and find it ASAP. And Jerry: >Sound extremely interesting. I've printed off most things that might prove useful in the future. I have a cheap printer that uses the feed type paper. It is much faster than ink jet printers. I keep threads on all kinds of things from PW, as well as hand written comments, stuff of the internet, etc. Because I write articles, this forms some of my research material. Stuff which is copyrighted - most of it - is used only as a means to keep tabs on what current trends are, or what peoples experiences have been. I spoke with Nigel Foster about his article he was doing for SK Magazine on tethers. He said he was too busy and if I wanted to do it, I was welcome. He was only going to touch on the subject. I will do an in depth report, and will be trying things out on the water in actual rough conditions, as I did with a recent article on paddlefloats. The tether thread from PW will no doubt give me some things to try out, and I hope that is okay with fellow PW'ers. Doug ended his last post, thus: >>Until then, I better keep my little cake-hole shut!> Jerry the man said: >Don't do this. Great post! Lots of food for thought. Okay, that means you asked for it! (The above responses, that is.) And yes , now that my Norkapp *is* perfect for me, finally, I am looking around for another boat, though I will most likely modify and build the cedar strip "Outer Island", if I ever get my renovation finished. BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Hey, if you like the sea, why not be closer to it? Actually, it is a very >popular kayak in the UK, as is the replacement, "Nordkapp Jubilee". They >have rough conditions over there. I think most of the recent Nordkapp's >come with skegs these days. the one-sided paddlers had the older version >with the fiberglass modified skegged hull, not the drop down type. To >answer your question, I don't know. I do know that Chris Duff is heading >for a New Zealand S Island circumnavigation, and he is leaving behind his >trusty steade, his Nordkapp, and taking instead his new Romany - the >disloyal bugger! One thing is for sure, my Norkapp has got me home from >some terrible seas. Of those kayaks that have circumnavigated the South Island of New Zealand, Nordkapps - one with skeg, a "homemade, slip on affair" (Paul Caffyn), rudder Bevan Walker. Also one Southern Aurora with rudder, Brian from Colorado. Bevan's rudder has black and white stripes (like a sea snake) to dissuade sharks. It is unlikely that any NZ shark will know what a sea snake is but he hasn't had any problems as far as we know. All other attempts that I know of were in kayaks with rudders, the Japanese paddlers tending to under-estimate condidtions. Paul changed to using a rudder part way through his Australian circunavigation after having problems with the skeg. Alex . . Alex (Sandy) Ferguson Chemistry Department University of Canterbury New Zealand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: Alex Ferguson <a.ferguson_at_chem.canterbury.ac.nz> To: <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 1999 5:40 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Boat Opinions & Analysis > Paul changed to using a rudder part way through his Australian > circunavigation after having problems with the skeg. > > Alex > . Help me out here. Is there a rudder vs skeg issue? Does anyone have any opinions on that one? This is making my day-dreaming about my boat-after-next much more complicated. I thought I had narrowed it down to skeg vs no skeg, but the dreadful rudder has been thrown back in the mix. Having repaired aircraft, I confess to a fear of moving parts. Where shall I turn? Bob *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> Paul changed to using a rudder part way through his Australian >> circunavigation after having problems with the skeg. >> >> Alex >> . >Help me out here. Is there a rudder vs skeg issue? Does anyone have any >opinions on that one? This is making my day-dreaming about my >boat-after-next much more complicated. I thought I had narrowed it down to >skeg vs no skeg, but the dreadful rudder has been thrown back in the mix. >Having repaired aircraft, I confess to a fear of moving parts. Where shall >I turn? > >Bob Where to turn (!!!! :-). Nothing much more than to point out that one of the very-long-distance paddlers would not paddle without a rudder. There are a lot of experienced paddlers in this country who make rude comments about people who don't think rudders are useful or reliable. As one put it, "With that thinking, Boeing would have all the passengers running up and down the aircraft instead of using elevators." The other comment here is, "A skeg is a failed rudder." One of the greatest problems has been the design and use of sliding pedals for steering - DON'T use sliding pedals. After that, just sensible design. Finally, if there is a failure, it doesn't mean that a paddler can't get home, just that it will be a little harder for some. BTW, Paul's problem was retracting the skeg which was making it difficult to turn up wind (very strong wind). Alex Alex (Sandy) Ferguson Chemistry Department University of Canterbury New Zealand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
As one still looking for the "perfect boat" I'd like to express my appreciation for the recent writings of Doug Lloys re. rudders, British boats, paddling in high quartering seas and the like. This has been to me some of the most informative and right on stuff I've read in a bit. If his suggestion in "A Modest Proposal" is acted upon, I'll be delighted to see it. Larry Koenig *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Larry wrote: >As one still looking for the "perfect boat" I'd like to express my >appreciation for the recent writings of Doug Lloys re. rudders, British >boats, paddling in high quartering seas and the like. This has been to me >some of the most informative and right on stuff I've read in a bit. If his >suggestion in "A Modest Proposal" is acted upon, I'll be delighted to see >it. Thank you for the "thanks" Larry, and others who sent positive feedback. Its funny though, because I've had other people tell me I have a case of bad verbal diarrhea, while others have said I'm as bad as the sp*ns*n man (you know who you are, and thems fighting words!) so I guess you can't please everyone, though I always try and warn of a long post or suggest deleting it before reading if the subject is of no interest. This brings up another point! The last few weeks have been GREAT on Paddlewise, lots of diverse stuff, detailed info, and friendly banter. I heard via the grape vine that there are those in the instructor fields who think PW just has mostly garbage on it. This is silly! All the different viewpoints are what make PW a premiere list, and we all seem mature enough to agree to disagree where necessary. And if you don't like a post or someone or something or the ACA, or whatever, don't put them or it down. When you were a kid, did you play in every one's sandbox in the neighborhood. No. If I didn't like a certain neighbor, and they asked me to come and play, I just politely said, "no thank you", and that was the end off it. Do you buy everything on the shelf at Safeway. No. Of course not. So please, if someone doesn't like my posts or opinions, or someone else's, just hit delete, unless you have something constructive to add. I'll try hard to do the same! And thank you for listening. BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Larry wrote: >As one still looking for the "perfect boat" I'd like to express my >appreciation for the recent writings of Doug Lloys re. rudders, British >boats, paddling in high quartering seas and the like. This has been to me >some of the most informative and right on stuff I've read in a bit. If his >suggestion in "A Modest Proposal" is acted upon, I'll be delighted to see >it. Thank you for the "thanks" Larry, and others who sent positive feedback. Its funny though, because I've had other people tell me I have a case of bad verbal diarrhea, while others have said I'm as bad as the sp*ns*n man (you know who you are, and thems fighting words!) so I guess you can't please everyone, though I always try and warn of a long post or suggest deleting it before reading if the subject is of no interest. This brings up another point! The last few weeks have been GREAT on Paddlewise, lots of diverse stuff, detailed info, and friendly banter. I heard via the grape vine that there are those in the instructor fields who think PW just has mostly garbage on it. This is silly! All the different viewpoints are what make PW a premiere list, and we all seem mature enough to agree to disagree where necessary. And if you don't like a post or someone or something or the ACA, or whatever, don't put them or it down. When you were a kid, did you play in every one's sandbox in the neighborhood. No. If I didn't like a certain neighbor, and they asked me to come and play, I just politely said, "no thank you", and that was the end off it. Do you buy everything on the shelf at Safeway. No. Of course not. So please, if someone doesn't like my posts or opinions, or someone else's, just hit delete, unless you have something constructive to add. I'll try hard to do the same! PS I hope we can all be "ourselves" on this list. Some of us are gung ho, macho, some are easygoing paddlers, some are very technical, some are very humourous - or at least try to be. Some are spiritual, some are hedonistic, and the best paddlers amongst us probably keep to themselves for the most part. BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
|Thank you for the "thanks" Larry, and others who sent positive feedback. |Its funny though, because I've had other people tell me I have a case of |bad verbal diarrhea, while others have said I'm as bad as the sp*ns*n man |(you know who you are, and thems fighting words!) so I guess you can't |please everyone, though I always try and warn of a long post or suggest |deleting it before reading if the subject is of no interest. Hmmmm, maybe they were talking about me since my dad has always said I had "diarrhea mouth" or called me "motor mouth." 8-) |This brings up another point! The last few weeks have been GREAT on |Paddlewise, lots of diverse stuff, detailed info, and friendly banter. I |heard via the grape vine that there are those in the instructor fields who |think PW just has mostly garbage on it. This is silly! I sure would not want them as instructor's. This list is the best source of information I have found on the internet. Period. I subscribe to another list PW is far superior. Partly its that our ListMom and certainly its the people who make up the PW community. When you have informative discussions from Dr. I, as well as our resident boat designers, what more can you ask for? 8-) One of the things I like about this list IS that we repeat the same discussions over and over. How many times have we had the "rudder" discussion. Or "which radio should I get", or "How do I lock up my kayak?", or "How do I setup an electric pump?" Generally, I learn something new everytime I read a repeated thread. Though there is not much left of the Rudder/NotRudder Horse at this point I'm sure its very informative for people who have just subscribed to the list. <snip> |PS I hope we can all be "ourselves" on this list. Some of us are gung ho, |macho, some are easygoing paddlers, some are very technical, some are very |humourous - or at least try to be. Some are spiritual, some are hedonistic, |and the best paddlers amongst us probably keep to themselves for the most |part. The humor on this list is part of its greatness. Sometimes a new message will arrive, you see the subject, the author of the note, and just know that there is going to be some smart a.sed, I mean witty, errrr, enlightning piece of information... 8-) As an example, I swear I just saw an note where a WOMAN listed not only her AGE, but her HEIGHT and WIEGHT! Whow! I don't think you can be more "ourselves" than that! LOL! I just returned from my SecondHurricaneFloydCleanUpTrip so I really needed and appreciated the humor I found in two days worth of PW notes. I just want Irene to get the hell away from North Carolina. The people DownEast can't take another storm. They have already lost everything, they just don't need the mental punishment and anguish of another storm..... Later.... Dan McCarty *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> |This brings up another point! The last few weeks have been GREAT on > |Paddlewise, lots of diverse stuff, detailed info, and friendly banter. I > |heard via the grape vine that there are those in the instructor fields who > |think PW just has mostly garbage on it. This is silly! Gee, I'm flattered. Really. :-) I didn't know PaddleWise had become important enough to generate disparaging remarks like that from instructors. My hat is off to all of you wonderful contributors! :-) Cheers, Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 10/17/1999 12:40:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dmccarty_at_us.ibm.com writes: << As an example, I swear I just saw an note where a WOMAN listed not only her AGE, but her HEIGHT and WIEGHT! >> Yeah, I noticed that, too. Some people just like to show off!!! :):):) I agree with your comments viz the versatility, expertise, and the camaraderie on the PW list. Perhaps a little reminder for "members" to adjust the subject line if the topic gets switched (I forget a lot) because if it's a really technical subject line, I just delete and WOULD HATE TO MISS ANY OF THE FUN STUFF! Sandy Kramer *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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