PaddleWise by thread

From: <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com>
subject: [Paddlewise] How and when to speak up
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 13:38:50 -0800
I guess like others on this list, I have run into situations when you
see someone doing something somewhat risky in sea kayaking and you have
to decide whether to speak up or not.  At one time, I was quite vocal
but felt increasingly that I was sounding like a spoilsport or grouch
and started laying off. 

The other day was an example.  The Downtown Boathouse has a number of
kayaks that were donated by a publication with a stylistic approach to
recreation and other life style pursuits in its writing and layouts. The
understanding is that the magazine staff, which doesn't seem to have
anyone over 30 years old (although I am certain there are a few past the
Big Three Oh) can use these boats any time that they are not earmarked
for the public program.  Trouble is that while they are enthusiastic and
gung ho, they tend to lack paddling skills, traffic & river savvy and
much in the way of an idea of cold water clothing and other safety
considerations for self rescue (I remember the astonishment of one of
the "senior" ones who had been paddling for a year when he first tried
pressing down with a borrowed paddle float, "Look at this, wow, it holds
you up!).  On the latter, they may be learning but regular members of
the Boathouse constantly find themselves wincing over the impervious
outlook of the mag staff toward paddling.  For example, one Boathouse
regular was about to go paddling at dusk when the mag crowd showed up
and was ready to embark without so much as a little keychain squeeze
light among them let alone even a modicum of adequate lighting.  He
finally decided to say something and then lent them some extra lights he
has around.  He paddled out with them to be around for just in case but
then got the willies over how they were paddling (I didn't ask what
exactly gave him the feeling) that he just left them after awhile.

The other day it was my turn to play Scrouge with members of the young
mag staff.  I was getting ready to go paddling when I saw them coming in
from a paddling trip.  They were all wearing shorts and cotton T-shirts
and had to have landed obliviously next to a small group on the
launching dock that was going out in Polartec Thermal Stretch suits,
paddling jackets etc.  I was readying my own shorty version (with
jacket) of the same.  (Water temperature was around 55 degrees.)  I
decided to speak up as diplomatically as I could but the words still
sounded like I was being a mean old crank or so it seemed to me in the
reflection of their wide open innocent eyes.  I felt like a parent
saying wash your hands before supper, clean your room, etc.  You know
the look kids give in such situations.  I can imagine their saying to
each other when they got out of my earshot "Who was that old fart and
what was he talking about?"

This is a problem experienced/prepared paddlers run into.  I remember
reading in Anorak an article by a respected paddler typifying the
situation.  He and a group of experienced paddlers were setting out at
the same time as another.  The experienced kayakers had on dry suits and
wet suits and kayaks decked out with tow ropes, bilge pumps, paddle
floats, etc.  The guy was in jeans and windbreakers with not much in the
way of safety gear evident.  It did not occur to him that these
experienced guys may have known something he didn't about safety etc. 
Kinda like the laws of nature and the sea did not apply to him.  The
author of the article pondered to himself, agonizingly so, whether to
say something and finally did in as a non-confrontational manner as he
could...and he is a diplomatic mild-mannered fellow.

So some questions:

1.  Should one speak up always when confronted with such situations of
pretty off-the-mark paddling approaches?  I don't mean talking with
someone who is wearing a farmer john when you think the situation calls
for a full suit or not having spare paddles etc. i.e. incremental
differences rather than wholesale ones.  I mean something very basic
like seeing some one with jeans and windbreakers in Northeast paddling
in December.

2.  What is the best way of vocalizing the dichotomy between their
oblivious paddling approach and a more prudent approach that experienced
paddlers tend to adhere to?  I have sometimes thought about things to
say  in imaginary scenarios but when confronted with a real situation,
the words tend to come out wierd, i.e. doctrinaire sounding,
pontificating, scolding, etc.  Give it a try and you will see what I
mean.

ralph diaz  


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter
PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024
Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com
"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not
to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission
Submissions:     paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net
Subscriptions:   paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: Steve Cramer <cramer_at_coe.uga.edu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] How and when to speak up
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 15:30:13 -0500
rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote:
> 
> I guess like others on this list, I have run into situations when you
> see someone doing something somewhat risky in sea kayaking and you have
> to decide whether to speak up or not.  
<snip>
> 
> So some questions:
> 
> 1.  Should one speak up always when confronted with such situations of
> pretty off-the-mark paddling approaches?  

Off the cuff answer: yes. What's the worst that could happen? Some jerk
blows you off as a tight-arsed old fogey (well, maybe worse things
things happen in NYC ;) ). What's the worst thing that could happen if
you don't? The jerk gets hurt or dies, and you know you might have been
able to prevent it. I first typed "could have prevented it," but I'm
backing down from that; it's not that certain.

Do I always do it? No.
> 
> 2.  What is the best way of vocalizing the dichotomy between their
> oblivious paddling approach and a more prudent approach that experienced
> paddlers tend to adhere to?  

My technique is to use "I" and avoid "You". So rather than say "You're
going to freeze your butt off dressed like that", perhaps say "I went
out dressed like that once and froze my butt off. Nearly died of
hypothermia and spent the night in the ER. Hasn't happened since I
bought this neat Fuzzy Rubber suit." Note that this personal revelation
does not actually have to be true.

As much as possible, it helps to try to blur the line between oblivious
and experienced, at least as far as the person standing in front of you
is concerned. So it may not be useful to start out with "Yesee, son,
I've been paddling these here waters for nigh onto 25 years, and..."
because the inescapable conclusion of the listener is "...and you
haven't, so you're inferior to me." Especially if the listener is a male
accompanied by a female, as these types have a strong need to know
everything, and therefore _must_ reject advice, as following it would
prove the contrary.

These suggestions apply to casual contacts, not to members of the party
I'm paddling with. There I want to be much more direct: "You're not
dressed warmly enough for immersion. Put some more clothes on or you're
not going with me."

YMMV.

Steve
***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not
to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission
Submissions:     paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net
Subscriptions:   paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com>
subject: [Paddlewise] More Re: How and when to speak up
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 15:39:33 -0800
Some posters suggested holding a cold water workshop.  The Boathouse is
doing that in a few weeks, free of charge, through the good offices of
Randy Henriksen and his New York Kayak shop, which has arranged for an
RN to speak and also demo dry suits and polartec suits, etc.  Randy also
has a presentation, which I have not seen, regarding assessing risks,
equipment, skills etc. in some sort of index or matrix, I think.  Randy
said something in passing about equipment is not enough, meaning, I
think, that cold water gear and safety gear are not enough.  If so, I
agree as this is the sage point raise by our own John Winters and the
confidence it may give to do risky things that person is not skilled
enought to handle...but that is another story...some passive safety aids
like cold water clothing can't really hurt. 

Randy also with principals at the Boathouse, mainly Tim Gamble who is
informally in charge of safety issues, have run several self- and
assisted rescue classes free of charge over the summer after work. The
mag staff did come to one of the rescue ones, which we were all glad to
see them do as they did not have an inkling of what to do and had been
going out for a year in all sorts of conditions without this basic
skill.

I did stress to the mag people I ran into last week that they should
very much attend the free cold water work shop.  One of them who seemed
to be at least listening a bit said she would attend.

The Boathouse does have some general rules posted but maybe they should
be more stressed in big block letters.  There is a general rule to wear
a PFD, for example, and it is enforced with the public boat program but
not so much with people in their own boats using the site for
launching.  We are tightening up specifically with the public boats in
the public program; but the rest of the time there is no safety cop
around.

ralph diaz
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter
PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024
Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com
"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not
to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission
Submissions:     paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net
Subscriptions:   paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: James Lofton <n5yyx_at_etsc.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] How and when to speak up
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 13:43:44 -0800
rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote:
> 
>BIG SNIP< 
> So some questions:
> 
> 1.  Should one speak up always when confronted with such situations of
> pretty off-the-mark paddling approaches?  I don't mean talking with
> someone who is wearing a farmer john when you think the situation calls
> for a full suit or not having spare paddles etc. i.e. incremental
> differences rather than wholesale ones.  I mean something very basic
> like seeing some one with jeans and windbreakers in Northeast paddling
> in December.

I sometimes wonder if telling people what is good for them isn't counter 
productive, much of the times.

People are snowed under with rules, legistation, laws, and orances sp?, 
until most just want a tiny bit of say so in what they do. I would guess 
paddling is one of those things.

I'm not suggesting that there are right ways or safe ways to do it, just 
that sometimes being able to make a mistake or two is part of the 
learning curve. ..and if it's fatal, well..it was that persons choice.

If someone sees everyone doing something one way and decides to do it 
someother way, don't you think maybe it was a concious thought?

I can only conpare this to the motorcycle helment debate. Most would 
agree that a helment will protect your head..? , but I have seen people 
blasting along the hyways with one on and wearing shorts, no shirt, 
thongs, and have some little thing on the back, barefooted and a halter 
top. Got them helments on tho! :-(

If the kayaking communty wants to have laws that says you have to dress a 
certain way and carry certain things, well fine. You still can't 
legislate common sence or even half way good judgement calls.

My personal opinion is to help pass on help and information to those that 
ask, but don't try to cram it down those that likely don't.

I've been told to dress for emersion. I know that, I've been in freezing 
water and work at not repeating the exsperance. I've also had 93 stitches 
in my face from a bike wreck, but I still won't wear a helment.

If some clown came up to me at the lake and told me I wasn't dressed 
corectly.., on a good day I would just smile and walk away.

I guess I just say lighten up or work to pass laws. They seem to be the 
American way.

James, wouldn't have done anything if I'd waited for proper 
instruction(or approval)

***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not
to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission
Submissions:     paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net
Subscriptions:   paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: Steve Cramer <cramer_at_coe.uga.edu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] How and when to speak up
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 16:44:07 -0500
James Lofton wrote:
> 
> If the kayaking communty wants to have laws that says you have to dress a
> certain way and carry certain things, well fine. You still can't
> legislate common sence or even half way good judgement calls.
> 
Actually, you can. Look at the emergence of state laws on using seat
belts, and even better, using car child restraints. Wearing a seat belt
is for me common sense, but lots of other people are doing it now only
because they risk getting a ticket if they don't.

But the kayaking community certainly doesn't want laws dictating dress
and equipment requirements. However, it would have only taken one highly
visible hypothermia induced drowning in NY Harbor (and you know who I'm
thinking about) to have Rudy & Co. clamoring for laws to protect us from
ourselves. If we can keep our comrades safe through education, we don't
need laws.

Those two paragraphs may sound contradictory, but bear in mind that if
people had worn seatbelts when they were invented, we wouldn't have need
to have airbags.

> My personal opinion is to help pass on help and information to those that
> ask, but don't try to cram it down those that likely don't.
> 
I have to agree, and in that spirit...James, I always wear a helmet when
I ride a motorcycle. I know that the ground is harder than my head.

Steve
***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not
to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission
Submissions:     paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net
Subscriptions:   paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: Wes Boyd <boydwe_at_dmci.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] How and when to speak up
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 15:56:54
At 01:43 PM 11/2/99 -0800, James Lofton wrote:

>
>I can only conpare this to the motorcycle helment debate. Most would 
>agree that a helment will protect your head..? , but I have seen people 
>blasting along the hyways with one on and wearing shorts, no shirt, 
>thongs, and have some little thing on the back, barefooted and a halter 
>top. Got them helments on tho! :-(

Michigan has a helmet law. Indiana does not. You want to see the flash of
brake lights when bikers go into Indiana from Michigan and stop to take
helmets off?

>If the kayaking communty wants to have laws that says you have to dress a 
>certain way and carry certain things, well fine. You still can't 
>legislate common sence or even half way good judgement calls.

Too many laws. Too many rules. I know there are people around that would
gladly ask the legislature to mandate that a kayaker wear a dry suit if the
water temperature is under 65 degrees, absolutely across the board. The day
the legislature passes that law is the day I give up kayaking. Too much of
this stuff that's jammed down our throats is stuff where the people pushing
the "reform" give no one else any credit for any common sense.

>My personal opinion is to help pass on help and information to those that 
>ask, but don't try to cram it down those that likely don't.
>
>I've been told to dress for emersion. I know that, I've been in freezing 
>water and work at not repeating the exsperance. I've also had 93 stitches 
>in my face from a bike wreck, but I still won't wear a helment.

That's your call. And it's good that you can make the call. Yes, I
sometimes go out in a kayak on water under 65 degrees without a drysuit. In
fact, I usually don't start thinking wetsuit until it's somewhat colder.
Yes, I've had hypothermia, too (granted, it was from standing in an
ice-cold river trying to remove a strainer with a chainsaw). But, there are
some conditions where it might well be warmer that I'd want one. It's my
call -- not some officious yahoo's decision to make for me.

>If some clown came up to me at the lake and told me I wasn't dressed 
>corectly.., on a good day I would just smile and walk away.

Could not agree more. I would suspect that that's the sort of person that I
really don't much want to be around, anyway.

>I guess I just say lighten up or work to pass laws. They seem to be the 
>American way.
>
>James, wouldn't have done anything if I'd waited for proper 
>instruction(or approval)
>

-- Wes, who's going to hop in the car, not put on a seat belt, run down to
the corner to pick up a pack of cigarettes, and maybe stop and look at the
Harley the guy has got for sale on the way.

***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not
to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission
Submissions:     paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net
Subscriptions:   paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: Robert Woodard <woodardr_at_tidalwave.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] How and when to speak up
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 17:00:39 -0500
> 1.  Should one speak up always when confronted with such situations of
> pretty off-the-mark paddling approaches?

Tough call. Which makes you feel better at the end of the day - saying
nothing, or being thought of as an old fart?

> 2.  What is the best way of vocalizing the dichotomy between their
> oblivious paddling approach and a more prudent approach that experienced
> paddlers tend to adhere to?  I have sometimes thought about things to
> say  in imaginary scenarios but when confronted with a real situation,
> the words tend to come out wierd, i.e. doctrinaire sounding,
> pontificating, scolding, etc.  Give it a try and you will see what I
> mean.

Remember me from last winter? I think if it hadn't been for some unnamed old
fart (and a few other old farts from this list), I might not be sitting here
waiting for some cold weather to try out my brand new dry suit. I was pretty
hard headed last winter (this hasn't changed) and got pounded on pretty
hard, but it somehow eventually started to sink in.

I met up a few weeks ago with a brand new kayaker for an outing. Myself and
my regular paddling partner were in wet suits, the new person in bicycle
shorts. Since I had a new boat I took the opportunity to wet exit and
practice paddlefloat reentry. The water was pretty cold, but not so cold
that my wetsuit didn't warm up once flooded. My partner and I talked with
the new person about cold weather gear kind of casually, but I think you're
right Ralph, it does come out sounding like a scolding. At one point I just
had to let it go because I thought if I kept it up the person might not want
to paddle with me again, and I'd rather have the opportunity to lay it on
thinly than not at all.

Woody


***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not
to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission
Submissions:     paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net
Subscriptions:   paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: James Lofton <n5yyx_at_etsc.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] How and when to speak up
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 16:02:45 -0800
Steve Cramer wrote:
> 
> James Lofton wrote:
> >
> > If the kayaking communty wants to have laws that says you have to dress a
> > certain way and carry certain things, well fine. You still can't
> > legislate common sence or even half way good judgement calls.
> >
> Actually, you can. Look at the emergence of state laws on using seat
> belts, and even better, using car child restraints. Wearing a seat belt
> is for me common sense, but lots of other people are doing it now only
> because they risk getting a ticket if they don't.
> 

Yes, and the last time I drove into town I believe I saw more than a few 
"loose" drivers out there. It is also against the law to kill someone.


> But the kayaking community certainly doesn't want laws dictating dress
> and equipment requirements. However, it would have only taken one highly
> visible hypothermia induced drowning in NY Harbor (and you know who I'm
> thinking about) to have Rudy & Co. clamoring for laws to protect us from
> ourselves. If we can keep our comrades safe through education, we don't
> need laws.
>

This exacatly what I meant. There is probably nothing that that has 
closer moninotering (cheee! training)that the aviaition community, yet 
look what happens when you give someone a piece of paper that says, "you 
got what it takes now". Good judgement is learned/acuaried, or some just 
flat lucks out and gets it through osmosis. Some have an angel. But it 
can't be crammed down someones throat.
 
> Those two paragraphs may sound contradictory, but bear in mind that if
> people had worn seatbelts when they were invented, we wouldn't have need
> to have airbags.
> 

I think we need seat belts and air bags because the average person is too 
darn stupid to react to a crash about to happen. So there you have it. 
Make it a law to get trained to start and steer the thing. A law to put 
on the seat belt. A law to have insurance, so everyone is protected and 
will be paid. People feel coumfortable about it all and die by the truck 
load every day. Maybe in due time we can get this far with kayaking.:-)


> > My personal opinion is to help pass on help and information to those that
> > ask, but don't try to cram it down those that likely don't.
> >
> I have to agree, and in that spirit...James, I always wear a helmet when
> I ride a motorcycle. I know that the ground is harder than my head.
>

Darn right it is. I have buried more than one friend that was wearing his 
on that last moment, tho. Some without too.
Maybe no right or wrong answer. I just love my freedom and sometime this 
conversation gets a bit too close to saying, lets legislate to save us 
all, or do it this way or we'll need laws to protect us. I personally 
think it's a pretty safe sport, IF everyone would tip-toe up their own 
learning curve. Someone on this list said a while back, that this is an 
outdoor sport, so why does it attract so many non outdoor types..? I 
agree.
Dressing them in drysuits and PFD's will only make them suffer longer 
when they do get in trouble.

James 
> Steve

***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not
to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission
Submissions:     paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net
Subscriptions:   paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: BaysideBob <vaughan_at_jps.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] How and when to speak up
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 19:41:07 -0800
Great topic Ralph.  You seem to have struck a nerve or two here.

To not say anything would be negligent.  Period.
You're dealing with ignorance in it's purist form.
Folks who don't know better.  They can't be blamed for that.
Would you yell at a kid walking into a street full of traffic?

Will they think you're an "old fart"?
Will they not send you Christmas cards this year?
How many did they send last year?

Do you work at the Downtown Boathouse to be "popular"
or to pass on skills?

Being the "cop" when you see people risking their lives
through ignorance goes with the territory gained through
your experience.

Try asking them how long they can expect to stay conscious
in water at the temp of the day.  If they know, fine, take your chances.
If they don't, well..................

Bob




***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not
to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission
Submissions:     paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net
Subscriptions:   paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: Elaine Harmon <eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] How and when to speak up
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 15:33:07 -0500 (EST)
On Tue, 2 Nov 1999 rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote:

> 1.  Should one speak up always when confronted with such situations of
> pretty off-the-mark paddling approaches?  I don't mean talking with
> someone who is wearing a farmer john when you think the situation calls
> for a full suit or not having spare paddles etc. i.e. incremental
> differences rather than wholesale ones.  I mean something very basic
> like seeing some one with jeans and windbreakers in Northeast paddling
> in December.

My vote: yes. What if a tragedy occurred, and you knew you MIGHT have
prevented it? (Basically a selfish reason, of course, since probably you
won't influence them at that time. But you might start them thinking about
it for next time. Some of us have to be nagged just a bit ;-)

> 2.  What is the best way of vocalizing the dichotomy between their
> oblivious paddling approach and a more prudent approach that experienced
> paddlers tend to adhere to?  

How about a cordial conversation, including something like, "Wow, you must
be really chilly after you roll that boat, you LIKE <big smile> that kind
of thing, huh?" and if they say they don't plan on getting wet, a
thoughtful pause, and "Um, how often do you paddle around here?" I.e., not
direct advice, unless they ask for it, but some questions to start them
thinking on their own. Of course one could say they're apparently not
capable of that, but some folks are just more careless than stupid.


Elaine Harmon - eilidh_at_dc.seflin.org - eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu


***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not
to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission
Submissions:     paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net
Subscriptions:   paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: Craig Poole <Craig243_at_concentric.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] How and when to speak up
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 19:44:38 -0500
At 1:38 PM -0800 11/2/99, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote:
>1.  Should one speak up always when confronted with such situations of
>pretty off-the-mark paddling approaches?  I don't mean talking with
>someone who is wearing a farmer john when you think the situation calls
>for a full suit or not having spare paddles etc. i.e. incremental
>differences rather than wholesale ones.  I mean something very basic
>like seeing some one with jeans and windbreakers in Northeast paddling
>in December.
>
>2.  What is the best way of vocalizing the dichotomy between their
>oblivious paddling approach and a more prudent approach that experienced
>paddlers tend to adhere to?  I have sometimes thought about things to
>say  in imaginary scenarios but when confronted with a real situation,
>the words tend to come out wierd, i.e. doctrinaire sounding,
>pontificating, scolding, etc.  Give it a try and you will see what I
>mean.
>
>ralph diaz


I have a suggestion that may or may not be appreciated!   In the interest
of safety perhaps someone who is a member of the boathouse could make a
rules proposal requiring those who paddle after a certain date, say Oct
15th, MUST wear either wet or dry suits while paddling from the boathouse
proper or using boathouse equipment.

I know that in the past, requiring people to do something that will save
their life has gone over like a lead baloon but the boathouse is not a club
per se.  I mean, the boathouse has a requirement for only paddling in the
enbayment so why not a requirement for using / wearing safety gear also?


Craig Poole
S/V Evensong
a 1967 Moody 36 Halberdier Ketch
Liberty Harbor Marina
Jersey City, NJ



***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not
to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission
Submissions:     paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net
Subscriptions:   paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: Gabriel L Romeu <romeug_at_erols.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] How and when to speak up
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 08:47:58 -0500
I have listened to a lot of great responses to this question, so, for
what it's worth, I will add my .002 cents worth.

1. As was proposed by another, a formal workshop should be offered to
the magazine/company who is responsible for the employees.  I firmly
believe that there should be a charge for this as any company would be
charged for a workshop/seminar.  This is how it's value and importance
is determined in the corporate enviroment and will impact follow up. 
Free stuff is generally percieved as valueless.  
Even if they choose not to schedule the workshop, they will consider the
situation seriously if the proposal was written with all the anecdotal
information about the cavalier attitude of it's employees.

2. Encourage the company to schedule an end/beginning of season  formal
paddle (at the boathouse's determination) for their employees when they
can safely deal with water temperatures. 


-- 
:                         :
Gabriel L Romeu                                                      :
http://studiofurniture.com  furniture from the workshop               :
http://members.xoom.com/gabrielR  life as a tourist, daily
journal         :
http://users.aol.com/romeugp  paintings, photographs, etchings, objects

***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not
to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission
Submissions:     paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net
Subscriptions:   paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************
From: Rainer Schroeter <kayaker_at_gmx.de>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] How and when to speak up
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 16:04:26 +0100
I am very hard minded, if it comes to paddle or cycling with *me*. I
tell the people that *I* will not go out together with them, if they are
not prepared for the situation.
But I do not tell them, that I am worried about *their* health, I tell
them that I don't want to be the one dealing with rescues or at worst with
their dead body. I will not be the one who has to change his plans
because they are ill prepared.  I don't want to pay for their ignorance.
I do this in every case I have serious doubts about peoples skills
and/or if they are not proper dressed and equipped.

Its another thing with people I see going out ill prepared. It depends
on my feelings, sometimes I talk to them sometimes not sometimes harsh or
really friendly.

In spring I was at a meeting of folding kayakers. There where about 50
paddlers. It was a very unstable weather with sunny hours but also heavy
rain and wind every day. We met at a lake in eastern Germany, and the
water was not very cold (I think about 12 degrees Celsius) but too cold
for a long swim without a wetsuit. There were only 6 paddlers of all wearing
a pfd, three of them were with me. Its useless to talk to people, having
paddled for years and going out underdressed in such a crowd. One guy,
about 25 years old asked us if we had no confidence in our boats,
because we had wet- or drysuits, pfd, towing rope etc. I did not answer
him anything. He went out with a cotton sweatshirt and trousers, without
rainclothes, without a sprayscirt on his boat and of course lacking
rescue gear at all. We did not see him the whole day until we met him on
our way back in a lock. Back on the open lake we had a good headwind and
some rain, it had become cold in the late afternoon. We stayed then with
that guy who was absolutely cold having real problems paddling against
the wind. We would not leave him alone because we were not sure if he
was able to paddle back. We were ready to tow him but we decided to wait
until he would ask or it was obvious that he would not make it home
alone. He did make it, slowly and shivering, and we never changed a word.
Perhaps he has learned something but I doubt it.

--
Rainer Schroeter, Marburg, Germany
***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not
to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission
Submissions:     paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net
Subscriptions:   paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:05 PDT