Anybody familiar with this (I believe, relatively new) small handheld, "submersible" GPS? West Marine has it on sale for $114.99 --- marked way down from $119.99! --- and it looks interesting. Basic stuff, nothing fancy, but I like the "submersible" specs and the small size. According to West Marine's Annapolis electronics expert, the only thing you give up on this unit is real estate for buttons, and it takes multiple keystrokes to input information. Any info out there? Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jack, Here is a URL with information about the eTrex GPS. http://joe.mehaffey.com/etrex.htm At the risk of losing my gearhead credentials I'll confess to not having the latest GPS. I bought my GPS when the Garmin 45 was the latest and greatest Garmin. I've still got it. When I go on the water with it I put it in a waterproof container that has the additional advantage of providing floatation. Dana -----Original Message----- <snip> Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 13:45:11 EST From: JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com Subject: [Paddlewise] Garmin eTrex GPS Anybody familiar with this (I believe, relatively new) small handheld, "submersible" GPS? West Marine has it on sale for $114.99 --- marked way down from $119.99! --- and it looks interesting. Basic stuff, nothing fancy, but I like the "submersible" specs and the small size. According to West Marine's Annapolis electronics expert, the only thing you give up on this unit is real estate for buttons, and it takes multiple keystrokes to input information. Any info out there? Jack Martin <snip> *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Dickson, Dana A." wrote: > Jack, > > Here is a URL with information about the eTrex GPS. > > http://joe.mehaffey.com/etrex.htm > As I didn't want to re send to the list my previous postings on the Etrex, I sent them to Jack privately. In checking out the link above I find that there is one update that hasn't been made yet. The PC Data cable is available, I have one attached to my computer right now. The odd thing about it is that the package says that it is for the Emap and doesn't even mention the Etrex. But the part numbers match up and it works. Mike -- Paddling along through fog so thick that only one's thoughts are visible, your reverie is abruptly shattered by the ancient cry of a great blue heron as she lifts uncertainly from the brilliant blue of a mussel-shell beach witnessed only by the brooding, wet spruce....your passage home seems as much back through time as it does through space. Mark H Hunt *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thanks for the URL, Dana. I think it's the same one I found after the fact --- quite complimentary to the system. The one thing that the eTrex does not have is the ability to upload maps, and that's now the focus of the question. Is there a major reason to hold out for the ability to load a lot of maps from the databases available, or is not point to point navigation from known fixes or datum a viable option for kayaking? The price is right, the size is great (palm-sized), and the submersible spec (one meter, 30 minutes) is impressive. But do I need the map capability? Jack *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com wrote: > > Thanks for the URL, Dana. I think it's the same one I found after the fact --- quite complimentary to the system. The one thing that the eTrex does not have is the ability to upload maps, and that's now the focus of the question. Is there a major reason to hold out for the ability to load a lot of maps from the databases available, or is not point to point navigation from known fixes or datum a viable option for kayaking? The price is right, the size is great (palm-sized), and the submersible spec (one meter, 30 minutes) is impressive. > > But do I need the map capability? Don't think you need maps, necessarily, but you will need pre-planned waypoints for some trips. The eTrex's specs (especially the submersibility) may motivate me to buy one of these things, but I **definitely** want the ability to download waypoints from Chartview (Nautical Software: http://www.tides.com/). Will this thing do that? I tried to determine if it would from the manual someone URL'ed, but could not tell. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Have you seen Captain Jack's website? They sell all sort of nautical software, Garmin GPS, etc... http://www.capjack.com I haven't done a complete study on it or anything, but it seems to offer quite a bit. Andree Hurley Viewit Dot Com - ICQ# 27469637 Web Sites for Specialty Businesses - http://www.viewit.com/ On Water Sports - http://www.onwatersports.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Kruger wrote: > Don't think you need maps, necessarily, but you will need pre-planned waypoints > for some trips. > > The eTrex's specs (especially the submersibility) may motivate me to buy one of > these things, but I **definitely** want the ability to download waypoints from > Chartview (Nautical Software: http://www.tides.com/). > > Will this thing do that? > > I tried to determine if it would from the manual someone URL'ed, but could not > tell. > > The Etrex will upload and download waypoints, I just can't tell if your software has the driver for it. But the link you provided does seem to indicate that it can using the NMEA protocol, which the Etrex has. A quick email to the software company might help here. Mike -- Paddling along through fog so thick that only one's thoughts are visible, your reverie is abruptly shattered by the ancient cry of a great blue heron as she lifts uncertainly from the brilliant blue of a mussel-shell beach witnessed only by the brooding, wet spruce....your passage home seems as much back through time as it does through space. Mark H Hunt *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
|But do I need the map capability? Hmmmmm, good question. But how good are their maps? I don't have the answer to the last question but my experience with both topomaps and lake maps is that they can be very inaccurate. If the GPS is accurate but the maps are off what is the point? I have used my 12XL to try to pinpoint locations on topomaps and have been greatly suprised how inaccurate the maps seem to be. A few years ago I was trying to locate property boundries on a topo map and it seemed to be really inaccurate. I could find major landmarks on the map and I had multiple readings from the GPS but did not have confidence on putting points on the map. I wrote the previous paragraph last night but held off posting because I had taken about a dozen positions on some property this weekend. So last night I tried to plot the positions on a 1:24000 topo map and the map is off anywhere from 200-300 meters both north to south and east to west. This is similar to what I seen on another topomap a few years ago. I'm very familiar with the topography of the land, and I can very easily guess property boundries from ground features. But the map features and the GPS positions don't line up. Since I was walking in straight lines along a marked survey line I have confidence that the GPS numbers are accurate. They certainly are consistent. Soooo, either the map is wrong or I can not plot points on a map........ 8-) On the other hand do you really need accuracy down to the meter? These are not nautical charts either which may be more important to you than a topo map. Hopefully nautical charts are more accurate..... Hope this helps... Dan *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
They are not going to line up. Right now a "fuzziness" is deliberately introduced into the GPS position which produces a 200/300 yard ambiguity. The ultimate accuracy will be about 25 feet when the totally clean signal is available. I would like to point out that the present accuracy of the signal is more then adequate for navigation. Richard Smith ----- Original Message ----- From: <dmccarty_at_us.ibm.com> To: <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2000 9:53 AM Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Garmin eTrex GPS > |But do I need the map capability? > > Hmmmmm, good question. But how good are their maps? > > I don't have the answer to the last question but my experience with both > topomaps and lake maps is that they can be very inaccurate. If the GPS is > accurate but the maps are off what is the point? I have used my 12XL to > try to pinpoint locations on topomaps and have been greatly suprised how > inaccurate the maps seem to be. A few years ago I was trying to locate > property boundries on a topo map and it seemed to be really inaccurate. I > could find major landmarks on the map and I had multiple readings from the > GPS but did not have confidence on putting points on the map. > > I wrote the previous paragraph last night but held off posting because I > had taken about a dozen positions on some property this weekend. So last > night I tried to plot the positions on a 1:24000 topo map and the map is > off anywhere from 200-300 meters both north to south and east to west. > This is similar to what I seen on another topomap a few years ago. I'm > very familiar with the topography of the land, and I can very easily guess > property boundries from ground features. But the map features and the GPS > positions don't line up. Since I was walking in straight lines along a > marked survey line I have confidence that the GPS numbers are accurate. > They certainly are consistent. Soooo, either the map is wrong or I can not > plot points on a map........ 8-) > > On the other hand do you really need accuracy down to the meter? These are > not nautical charts either which may be more important to you than a topo > map. Hopefully nautical charts are more accurate..... > > Hope this helps... > Dan > > > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com wrote: > > But do I need the map capability? Dave K. said: >Don't think you need maps, necessarily, but you will need pre-planned >waypoints >for some trips. Hummm, Whether or not your GPS has electronic charts, I think it's still a good idea to carry "hardcopy" charts. The GPS can fail due to battery discharge, compartment flooding, destruction of the GPS satillites by invading UFOs, etc. etc. and if it goes, there go your charts, making your compass (you ARE carrying a compass, right?) much less useful. The advantage I see to built-in charts is that your position is plotted for you, letting you easily see your relationship to rocks, landing places, etc. - it's not always easy transferring lat. and long. numbers from my GPS readout to a paper chart, especially in lively seas. The downsides I see to GPS charts are the aforementioned risk of failure, plus that, by their very nature, the display screens of pocket GPSs are small and don't give you the big picture as readily as paper charts do. Peering constantly at a tiny screen in bouncy water sounds like a recipe for sea-sickness to me. I usually get a magnetic bearing from my GPS, then use my deck compass to follow it. The deck compass is mounted fairly near my bow, so I don't have to look down or change my focus as radically as I do to read the GPS. You might be surprised at how much difference this makes to my ongoing "situational awareness"; the forward-mounted compass is sort of my low-tech version of the fighter-pilot's "Heads-Up Display":-) Philip Torrens N49°16' W123°06' *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Philip Torrens wrote: > > >JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com wrote: > > > But do I need the map capability? > Dave K. said: > >[snip] you will need pre-planned waypoints for some trips. > The advantage I see to built-in charts is that your position is plotted for > you, letting you easily see your relationship to rocks, landing places, etc. > - it's not always easy transferring lat. and long. numbers from my GPS > readout to a paper chart, especially in lively seas. Got that. I was figuring Jack planned to do his waypointing at home, and then transfer his route to the GPS. On the water, I assumed he would have a chart. with waypoints crayoned onto it. I share your skepticism about the value of the tiny screen for use as a "map." -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR not a GPS owner, but the eTrex may change my mind *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>From: Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com> > > >JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com wrote: > > > > But do I need the map capability? > > > Dave K. said: > > >[snip] you will need pre-planned waypoints for some trips. > I said: > > The advantage I see to built-in charts is that your position is plotted >for > > you, letting you easily see your relationship to rocks, landing places, >etc. > > - it's not always easy transferring lat. and long. numbers from my GPS > > readout to a paper chart, especially in lively seas. > Dave K. said: >Got that. I was figuring Jack planned to do his waypointing at home, and then >transfer his route to the GPS. On the water, I assumed he would have a >chart. >with waypoints crayoned onto it. > >I share your skepticism about the value of the tiny screen for use as a >"map." Sorry if in my haste I intially misunderstood your first comment to mean that E-maps could replace paper charts; that's clearly not what you intended, and we agree that paper charts will continue to have a place on the deck of kayaks for the foreseeable future. Philip Torrens N49°16' W123°06' *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>I wrote the previous paragraph last night but held off posting because I >had taken about a dozen positions on some property this weekend. So last >night I tried to plot the positions on a 1:24000 topo map and the map is >off anywhere from 200-300 meters both north to south and east to west. >This is similar to what I seen on another topomap a few years ago. I'm >very familiar with the topography of the land, and I can very easily guess >property boundries from ground features. But the map features and the GPS >positions don't line up. Since I was walking in straight lines along a >marked survey line I have confidence that the GPS numbers are accurate. >They certainly are consistent. Soooo, either the map is wrong or I can not >plot points on a map........ 8-) > Here's a VERY important question: Did you match your GPS reference datum to that of the map? Many GPS units default to WGS84, but most topos are referenced to NAD27. That alone can produce a 200-300 meter error. Here in NJ I routinely come within 100 feet of the correct position using UTM coordinates. If I take the time to get a few readings per station, I get a much better rms error. That will get me within a pencil line drawn on the topo. That's good enough. In one instance where I had to do better, I borrowed a DGPS setup that got me within one meter. Joe P. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
| Here's a VERY important question: Did you match your GPS reference |datum to that of the map? Many GPS units default to WGS84, but most topos |are referenced to NAD27. That alone can produce a 200-300 meter error. | Here in NJ I routinely come within 100 feet of the correct position |using UTM coordinates. If I take the time to get a few readings per |station, I get a much better rms error. That will get me within a pencil |line drawn on the topo. That's good enough. In one instance where I had to |do better, I borrowed a DGPS setup that got me within one meter. |Joe P. Hmmm. I'll have to check. I know I changed the settings the last time I was playing around with the GPS and topomaps. Did I changed it correctly is a good question! 8-) I went to the USGS website and eventually to the terra server and found the satalitte images for the property. They overlay a grid that is pretty close to what the GPS was measuring at least on a North-South line. The east west line is the one that was really off. The image is from 1993 and is out of date. There are now clear cuts on each side of my property and this would make it very easy to determine boundries from the images. The county also has images take from airplanes that are very detailed. They were supposed to have been on line by March at the latest... I was talking with the people in the county GIS office early in the year and the images they have were amazing. The topomap I have is from 1981ish and I know it is not quite accurate. Maybe 90% correct. Course that may be all one really needs. I bring all of this up for a couple of reasons. The original question was getting a GPS with a map display. My two cents is that the accuracy of the GPS might exceed the accuracy of the map. This may or maynot be important to a particular user. They have to decide. Then there are the issues of batteries and not having a chart because the GPS just went belly up. The sat images on line is very very very nice. How did we live without this stuff? Thanks for the Nad27 hint. I'll check it tonight if I get home early enough..... Dan *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Do you know if the 12XL and the map were using the same datum? If you were looking at a map with one datum and the GPS was set to another datum, I can see how inaccuracies would be very problematic! Shawn Dan wrote: >I don't have the answer to the last question but my experience with both topomaps and lake maps is that they can be very inaccurate. If the GPS is accurate but the maps are off what is the point? I have used my 12XL to try to pinpoint locations on topomaps and have been greatly suprised how inaccurate the maps seem to be. A few years ago I was trying to locate property boundries on a topo map and it seemed to be really inaccurate. I could find major landmarks on the map and I had multiple readings from the GPS but did not have confidence on putting points on the map. -- Shawn W. Baker 0 46°53'N © 2000 ____©/______ 114°06'W ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ baker_at_montana.com 0 http://www.missoulaconcrete.com/shawn/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The fuzziness referred to when talking about GPS position accuracy is technically known as Selective Availability, and yes it is controlled by the US Government. This feature was built in as a way of denying GPS accuracy to non-friendly persons in the event of hostilities (don't want to help them out if we don't have to, right?). However this feature is not used because of the overwhelming number of civilian users of GPS that depend on its accuracy. Also, DGPS (Differential GPS) has arrived on scene and makes selective availability not as effective. As I understand it, future generations of GPS satellites won't even have the selective availability built in. The diagnosis of incorrect datum is probably right on. I've seen up to a kilometer difference on charts in the middle east. As an experiment, go to your closest US Army Corps of Engineers office and ask where the closest surveyed 'bench mark' is and go try out your GPS there. Buddy Knox *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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