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From: MSN/RiDem <RiDem_at_email.msn.com>
subject: [Paddlewise] Weather forecasting
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 16:22:46 -0400
For the past few months I have been trying to find a cheap, lightweight,
portable book to bring  along with my  over-priced electronic barometer
gadget
<g> on our Arctic trip this summer.  I didn't want a meterology tome, nor
discussions on global warming, human history & weather,etc. A fellow
Paddlewiser did tell me of some of Alan Watt's books. (I found an
inexpensive copy of WATTS, Alan.: DINGHY AND BOARD SAILING WEATHER.; London:
Nautical Books., 1984. First Edition, 0-333-34558-4 , which may be useful
for home reading.)

However, today I  finally found what I have been searching for, and thought
it might be of some interest to others:

The Weather Wizard's Cloud Book : How You Can Forecast the Weather
Accurately and Easily by Reading the Clouds
Louis D., Sr. Rubin, et al. Paperback - 87 pages Flexi-book edition (October
1989)   24 pages of color plates.
Algonquin Books; ISBN: 0912697105 ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.33 x 8.48 x
5.06  List price is < $9 US. It weighs ~ 4 oz.

Last summer on our first Barrenground paddle, I found it extraordinarily
difficult to get a "feel" for the day's weather. It was neither my first or
thousandth time in or out of the woods either!

I think this book might be of interest to others.

Rich Dempsey
ridem_at_msn.com





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From: Christine Allison <sailnut_at_asan.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Weather forecasting
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 08:44:13 -0400
In my estimation, as a professional meteorologist and experienced sailor, a
barometer will do you no good at all.  Perhaps a barograph would give you
some warning of an approaching weather event but they are delicate
instruments.

Local knowledge leavened with observation of changes in cloud cover and
cloud type and variation  in wind direction and velocity are your best bet
for short term local forecasting.

Richard Smith

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From: Theresa Jancek <tjancek_at_slic.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Weather forecasting
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 10:41:07 -0400
I'd be the last to denigrate the value of "local knowledge" and 
"observation," but Richard Smith's suggestion that barometers have no 
place in short-term forecasting is simply tosh. 

Changes in pressure over time -- up or down, steep or gentle -- are 
important indicators of approaching weather systems.* And you don't 
need a barograph to discern them. A plain-vanilla barometer and a 
notebook will work just fine, thank you. Simply record barometric 
pressure at set intervals (2 hours is a good place to start) and then 
connect the dots. This isn't some new-fangled idea. Sailors have been 
"eyeing the glass" and watching for changes since the days of Admiral 
Fitzroy. 

Which barometer, then? My old Thommen Everest baro-altimeter has gone 
everywhere with me in the last twenty years. It's about as delicate as 
a Hummvee. Carry it in a double Zip-Lock bag and fear nought. 

What sort of notebook? Bound engineers' field notebooks (the Dietzgen 
S400V is a good one) are excellent logs. The orange color makes them 
hard to lose, and the paper, though not waterproof, won't disintegrate 
when it gets wet. Still, it pays to bag them.

For those with deep pockets and a fondness for gadgets, Casio (and 
others) sell digital watches incorporating a recording barometer -- a 
barograph you can wear on your wrist, in short, and one that's 
waterproof to 100m, to boot.

Barometers and barographs aren't magic, of course. No forecasting tool 
is. But they're well worth taking along -- and using -- on any trip 
outside your back garden.

Terry

* For guidelines in interpreting such changes, see, for example, 
pp. 57-58 in Jeff Renner's _Northwest Marine Weather_. (And, yes, 
Renner's a "professional meterologist." His is expert counsel. Faint 
hearts take comfort.)


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From: MSN/RiDem <RiDem_at_email.msn.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Weather forecasting
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 17:37:59 -0400
What I got (though I WANTED a Thommen), was  an electronic
barometer/altimeter/temperature gauge...similar to the Oregon Science
models. It has a 12 hour "memory bar graph" indicating trends.

I intend to use a notebook on our trip to keep track of 1)wind direction
2)temp 3)barometric pressure 4)cloud cover/type 5)  and the actual "in my
face weather". (thus also heeding  Richard Smith's  advice  : "Local
knowledge leavened with observation of changes in cloud cover and cloud type
and variation  in wind direction and velocity are your best bet for short
term local forecasting.")

After all it is a 7 week trip, and I probably will /can learn "something"
while there!  Which was part of the reason for my  joy in  finding a good
small portable guide to cloud-types and their significance ( LD Rubin's
"Cloud Book) which I mentioned in the original post.

Thanks for your comments and advice!


----- Original Message -----
From: "Theresa Jancek" <tjancek_at_slic.com>
To: "Paddlewise" <PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net>
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 10:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Weather forecasting

(A couple of SNIPS here and there)
> Changes in pressure over time -- up or down, steep or gentle -- are
> important indicators of approaching weather systems.* And you don't
> need a barograph to discern them. A plain-vanilla barometer and a
> notebook will work just fine, thank you. Simply record barometric
> pressure at set intervals (2 hours is a good place to start) and then
> connect the dots. > For those with deep pockets and a fondness for
gadgets, Casio (and
> others) sell digital watches incorporating a recording > * For guidelines
in interpreting such changes, see, for example,
> pp. 57-58 in Jeff Renner's _Northwest Marine Weather_. (And, yes,
> Renner's a "professional meterologist." His is expert counsel. Faint
> hearts take comfort.)



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From: Michael Daly <michaeldaly_at_home.com>
subject: [Paddlewise] Paddle woes.
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 19:39:54 -0400
I'm grumpy.

Back when the snow was flying, I ordered an AT Xception Tour paddle.
The only vendor in eastern Canada is 150km away.  I sent two email
messages and followed with live voice confirmation to ensure they
understood I wanted the variable length version with a specific length range.

Last Friday before the Georgian Bay SK Symposium, I called to enquire about
the status of the order.  After hearing much shuffling of paper on their end of
the phone, they gave me the "You ordered a paddle from us?" routine.  They
said they would follow up on Monday.  Monday they told me the paddle arrived
on Friday.

Today I get up earlier than I should have (Amie won't let me out without some
advance on the progress of the basement renovations), painted till I ran out of
paint and took off to get the paddle.  I'd agreed to pick it up rather than have it
delivered, since I don't trust the boobs in the delivery companies.  Besides,
Amie's from that town and we could go lay flowers on her Mum's grave, visit
old sites and friends etc, on the way.

I get to the store, track down the salesdroid and wait.  He hands me the paddle.
It is clearly _too_ long.  Special order - six+ weeks, wrong size.  Come on - AT only
makes _one_ product! How can they screw it up?  I know the store got the order
right - but  why didn't the droid _check_ the product before dragging me 150km?
This is a CAN$650 ($750 with taxes!) order FCOL!

Am I missing something?  (besides the paddle - now I hope I get one before
September  :-( )

Mike

(who is of the opinion that the current "economic boom" is making shareholders
rich in large part by reducing to the minimum anything resembling service in
companies.  Wanna here about my battle w/ the car company after they broke
something while servicing it?  Or how we got a refund from a retailer by calling
the cops and charging credit card fraud etc. etc. etc...  sigh.  At least my GPS
is still dry!)

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From: Gerald Foodman <klagjf_at_worldnet.att.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Paddle woes.
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 17:38:05 -0700
>Come on - AT only
> makes _one_ product> Am I missing something?  (besides the paddle - now I
hope I get one before
> September  :-( )
>
I bought mine through Southwest Kayaks (Ed Gillette), special ordered at 231
cm.  It took less than a week and was perfect.  It is the best paddle by far
that I have, and I have 5 or 6 of all types.
Jerry

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From: Michael Daly <michaeldaly_at_home.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Paddle woes.
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 11:38:11 -0400
Gerald Foodman wrote:

> >Come on - AT only
> > makes _one_ product> Am I missing something?  (besides the paddle - now I
> hope I get one before
> > September  :-( )
> >
> I bought mine through Southwest Kayaks (Ed Gillette), special ordered at 231
> cm.  It took less than a week and was perfect.  It is the best paddle by far
> that I have, and I have 5 or 6 of all types.
> Jerry

I don't doubt it's a good paddle.  I haven't cancelled the order, but I'm just frustrated.
Having played with it in the store, it's all the more frustrating that I can't paddle
with it _today_ as I had planned (all week - daydreaming beats workin').  He's put
a rush on the order, so hopefully I'll get it soon.

Mike


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From: Rob Cookson <rob_cookson_at_mindspring.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Paddle woes.
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 08:38:36 -0700
Hi Michael,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net
> [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of Michael Daly

>
> I'm grumpy.

>
> Back when the snow was flying, I ordered an AT Xception Tour paddle.
> The only vendor in eastern Canada is 150km away.  I sent two email
> messages and followed with live voice confirmation to ensure they
> understood I wanted the variable length version with a specific
> length range.
>

<SNIP>

I'm very sorry to hear that you had an unpleasant experience with your
paddle purchase.  I know how frustrating it is to lay out lots of cash and
have the order fouled.

Sometimes companies drop the ball, sometimes staff members screw up orders,
sometimes vendors ship the wrong product, mistakes happen.  I hope the store
was incredibly apologetic.  They should have caught the length mistake when
the paddle was received and before you were notified.  If you are unable to
get good service from this company, go mail order.  I'm sure there are lots
of folks on this list that would be happy to share names of good mail order
retailers with superior service.

> I get to the store, track down the salesdroid and wait.

Maybe part of the problem you are having with service is related to the way
you interact with the sales/ customer service people.  Unless I
misunderstand and you were really dealing with a droid rather than a human.
(wow I've only been out of retail 9 months and they've automated)  You see,
one of the things that I have noticed with staff/ customer relations over
the years is once the staff is treated like a droid the customer stops being
seen as a customer and becomes the jerk that ordered the paddle.  I always
tried to teach staff to treat each customer exactly the way they wanted to
be treated-acknowledge that the customer is upset, because you would be too.
Do what you can to rectify the situation, discount the paddle throw in free
shipping on the re-ordered correct paddle, give them a loaner, etc.


> Am I missing something?  (besides the paddle - now I hope I get one before
> September  :-( )

I think so, you made it a point of referring to another human twice in this
post as a droid,  Something sub-human. I think you are probably missing a
lot of wonderful opportunities with your downward view on others.

Your post exemplifies what I think is one of the biggest problems I see in
society (not just retail) today.  We have stopped looking at each other as
humans.  Oh, he's just a salesdroid, not really worthy of respect, she's fat
ignore her, those kids are black, they're probably in a gang and selling
drugs.

I would suggest that you try treating the sales staff the way you like to be
treated and you may find they respond in kind.  That is, if you stop seeing
them as droids, they are likely to stop seeing you as the bonehead that
ordered the paddle, and my guess is that everyone will be better served.

Rob Cookson
 "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin

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From: Michael Daly <michaeldaly_at_home.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Paddle woes.
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:06:11 -0400
Rob Cookson wrote:

> Hi Michael,
> > Back when the snow was flying, I ordered an AT Xception Tour paddle.
> > The only vendor in eastern Canada is 150km away.  I sent two email
> > messages and followed with live voice confirmation to ensure they
> > understood I wanted the variable length version with a specific
> > length range.
> >
>
> <SNIP>
>
> I'm very sorry to hear that you had an unpleasant experience with your
> paddle purchase.  I know how frustrating it is to lay out lots of cash and
> have the order fouled.
>
> Sometimes companies drop the ball, sometimes staff members screw up orders,
> sometimes vendors ship the wrong product, mistakes happen.  I hope the store
> was incredibly apologetic.  They should have caught the length mistake when
> the paddle was received and before you were notified.

[and]

>> I get to the store, track down the salesdroid and wait.

>Maybe part of the problem you are having with service is related to the way
>you interact with the sales/ customer service people.

Well, you (and Bruce) may be assuming that my attitute toward the sales person
preceded the event.  Rather, it followed.  You see, the shop in question, which
has a tremendous reputation (primarily among the WW crowd), prides itself in
having staff that are paddlers as well as sales staff.  They sell high end and
I expected a "high-end" result.  That perhaps colours my after-the-fact
representation of the gent.

He wasn't apologetic.  In fact, once the problem was discovered, he was
generally non-communicative.  I was prompting him to respond to the
situation.  I think it's a reasonable expentation that in such a situation,
the sales staff should be proactive.

Two mistakes were made - wrong product shipped (producer) and order
not checked (retailer).  If it had been a shop down the street, I wouldn't have
been so ticked off.  But I had to drive 300 km ( 180 miles ) round trip.   He
knew I had to come a long way; he should have been more careful.

Part of my frustration, in fact perhaps the larger part, comes from the fact
that this isn't a one-off event, but rather another in a long string of events.
Both Amie and I have had nothing but problems with _every_ big ticket
purchase in the last year.  Service is history (and Amie and I are both
in service industries, I as a computer consultant and she as a customer
sales rep in a big company).  Spreadsheets show service as a cost, not
a profit.  Hence in these greedy times, service goes.


> If you are unable to
> get good service from this company, go mail order.  I'm sure there are lots
> of folks on this list that would be happy to share names of good mail order
> retailers with superior service.
>

But that means I can't support the local shops that provide for specialty
sports.  I could have ordered it from the producer's web site.  I chose
to deal with the (almost) local dealer.  I may need that guy in the future
and want him around.

The demise of specialty shops has been accelerating in the last decade.
There is now only _one_ high-end xc ski shop in Toronto (pop 3 million)
and two in the 'burbs (both branches of one store).   One formerly good
shop is now only into high-end sports fashion and the teenie-bopper sales
staff are only good for taking the credit card.   What do you expect with
the minimum wage approach to doing business.

There are two shops downtown that sell kayaks and gear.  One has
mediocre kayak selection, though their accessories are good.  The staff
varies from good to indifferent and I don't recommend the place to
novices.  The second had a big re-org a few years ago.  I used to
paddle with and take lessons from their staff.  Those people are all gone
now, working for outfitters or stores in other cities.  Now staff that
replaced them are in the teenie-bopper min wage crowd.  They don't
paddle and don't know the products as well as they should.  I no
longer feel that they can provide good service.

The big box stores are putting the small retailers out of business and forcing
them to cut corners to compete.  They end up being no better and we all
suffer.

Yesterday's episode was an "Oh no, more of the same" thing for me.  I'll agree
that my post here was somewhat overdone.  My apologies.  I should have
waited till today until posting (if at all).

If you're a kayak retailer - try to stay focused on the customer, not the shareholder.
Shareholders are easily replaced.

Mike


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From: Rob Cookson <rob_cookson_at_mindspring.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Paddle woes.
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 21:44:15 -0700
Hi Michael and All,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net
> [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of Michael Daly
>
>>>Michael Daly Wrote:
>
> >> I get to the store, track down the salesdroid and wait.

>>Rob Cookson wrote:
> >Maybe part of the problem you are having with service is related
> to the way
> >you interact with the sales/ customer service people.
>
> Well, you (and Bruce) may be assuming that my attitute toward the
> sales person
> preceded the event.  Rather, it followed.

Nope doesn't matter to me one way or the other.

>You see, the shop in
> question, which
> has a tremendous reputation (primarily among the WW crowd),
> prides itself in
> having staff that are paddlers as well as sales staff.  They sell
> high end and
> I expected a "high-end" result.  That perhaps colours my after-the-fact
> representation of the gent.

That's understandable.


>
> He wasn't apologetic.

He should have been.

.In fact, once the problem was discovered, he was
> generally non-communicative.  I was prompting him to respond to the
> situation.  I think it's a reasonable expentation that in such a
> situation,
> the sales staff should be proactive.

Yup, I agree, and stated that in my earlier post.


>
> Two mistakes were made - wrong product shipped (producer) and order
> not checked (retailer).  If it had been a shop down the street, I
> wouldn't have
> been so ticked off.  But I had to drive 300 km ( 180 miles )
> round trip.   He
> knew I had to come a long way; he should have been more careful.

The retailer only had control of the receiving and notification of the
paddle.  Their receiver should have checked that this was the proper product
before you were notified.


>
> Part of my frustration, in fact perhaps the larger part, comes
> from the fact
> that this isn't a one-off event, but rather another in a long
> string of events.
> Both Amie and I have had nothing but problems with _every_ big ticket
> purchase in the last year.

Unrelated to the staff member you were dealing with.  Not his problem.

>Service is history (and Amie and I are both
> in service industries, I as a computer consultant and she as a customer
> sales rep in a big company).  Spreadsheets show service as a cost, not
> a profit.  Hence in these greedy times, service goes.

Not in my part of the US.  Where things are competitive service is a big
deal.  When I was a retail buyer service definately influenced my purchases.
I definately sold on service, not on discount.

>
>
> > If you are unable to
> > get good service from this company, go mail order.  I'm sure
> there are lots
> > of folks on this list that would be happy to share names of
> good mail order
> > retailers with superior service.
> >
>
> But that means I can't support the local shops that provide for specialty
> sports.  I could have ordered it from the producer's web site.  I chose
> to deal with the (almost) local dealer.  I may need that guy in the future
> and want him around.

Do you really?  If they treat you as poorly as you say, they don't deserve
to prosper.  If you really want to help this retailer write them a detailed
letter explaining how poor you think the service is.  Help him improve or
help him fail either will benefit the consumer.  Helping him prosper when
providing shoddy service only harms the consumer.

>
> The demise of specialty shops has been accelerating in the last decade.
> There is now only _one_ high-end xc ski shop in Toronto (pop 3 million)
> and two in the 'burbs (both branches of one store).   One formerly good
> shop is now only into high-end sports fashion and the teenie-bopper sales
> staff are only good for taking the credit card.   What do you expect with
> the minimum wage approach to doing business.

Then don't do business with them.
>
> There are two shops downtown that sell kayaks and gear.  One has
> mediocre kayak selection, though their accessories are good.  The staff
> varies from good to indifferent and I don't recommend the place to
> novices.  The second had a big re-org a few years ago.  I used to
> paddle with and take lessons from their staff.  Those people are all gone
> now, working for outfitters or stores in other cities.  Now staff that
> replaced them are in the teenie-bopper min wage crowd.  They don't
> paddle and don't know the products as well as they should.  I no
> longer feel that they can provide good service.

Tell the manager, tell the owner.  Tell them why you used to buy there and
why you stopped.  When I was in retail I was all ears to this stuff.

>
> The big box stores are putting the small retailers out of
> business and forcing
> them to cut corners to compete.  They end up being no better and we all
> suffer.

Not exactly.  The consumers decide who stays and who goes.  Right now the
consumers are voting with their wallets and they are voting big box and
internet.

>
> Yesterday's episode was an "Oh no, more of the same" thing for
> me.  I'll agree
> that my post here was somewhat overdone.  My apologies.  I should have
> waited till today until posting (if at all).

The only part of your post I had a problem with was calling the staff
droids.  I wouldn't have been offended (and wasn't really offended anyway,
just had a point to make) if you had said that the sales person was rude or
unhelpful or whatever.  It was the dehumanizing element that bothered me.
It's very easy to justify unusual treatment of people once we have
dehumanized them.  I doubt you would have called the sales person a droid to
his or her face precisely because you would have been confronted with the
fact that you were addressing a human.  Anyway enough preaching from me.
Hope things work out with your paddle.

Rob Cookson

 "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin



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From: <Outfit3029_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Paddle woes.
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 16:01:37 EDT
In a message dated 5/21/00 3:54:54 PM !!!First Boot!!!, 
rob_cookson_at_mindspring.com writes:

<< > Am I missing something?  (besides the paddle - now I hope I get one 
before
 > September  :-( )
 
 I think so, you made it a point of referring to another human twice in this
 post as a droid, Something subhuman. I think you are probably missing a
 lot of wonderful opportunities with your downward view on others. >>

 Rob,
    You forgot the delivery boob.
     I am certain that if the "salesdroid" and the "delivery boob" knew of 
Mr. Mike's post, they would treat him with the respect and courtesy that his 
comments warrant.  Oh, this is the Internet, perhaps that will read them.
     
    Bruce McC (retailer and former UPS driver)
    WEO
 
 
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