The hatch covers on my Perception Carolina are simply molded rubber covers that snap over a lip on the the hatch holes. The lip is close to the deck and it would be too easy to not get the cover fully secured and not realize it; but even with close attention paid to that, I'm not confident they will stay on in all adverse conditions. Therefore, I want to install two straps over each one. I'll use stainless steel nuts and bolts as screws won't hold in the thin plastic. Anyone know what the best sealant would be? Also, my boat doesn't have bungies along the bow and stern gunwales like most better sea yaks have. What are they for, for swimmers to hold on to? P.S.: Anyone who wants to paddle or practice rescues, rolls, etc. around Brooklyn, NY waters on weekday eves or Sundays message me backchannel. I'm a rank beginner. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> -----Original Message----- > From: Tom [mailto:tombrooklyn_at_yahoo.com] snip > Therefore, I want to > install two straps over each one. I'll use stainless steel > nuts and bolts as screws won't hold in the thin plastic. > Anyone know what the best sealant would be? Also, my boat > doesn't have bungies along the bow and stern gunwales like > most better sea yaks have. What are they for, for swimmers > to hold on to? You might want to try using a marine sealant like 3M's 5200 - here's a description; Tack free in 48 hours, completely cures in 5 to 7 days. The bond is extremely strong, retains its strength above or below the waterline. Use on fiberglass deck to fiberglass hull, wood to fiberglass, portholes and deck fittings, motors on fiberglass transoms, under mouldings, hull seams above and below the water line. For permanent bonds. Try to file/grind the sharp edges off of the protruding bolt on the inside of the kayak - protrusions on the inside have a nasty way of catching drybags, skin, etc when you're loading or unloading gear - especially on cold, windy, rainy days at the end of a long paddle. Use the largest washers (fender washers) that are practical to help distribute any forces over a wider area. As far as perimeter lines go, they're usually not bungies, but actual lines. Their primary purpose in life is exactly as you surmised - to give a swimmer (you or a partner) a way to hang onto the kayak when the forces of nature have decided that you looked entirely too comfortable sitting in your seat. There are two thing that you _never_ want to let go of when you do a wet exit - your paddle and your boat. Wind can easily move a kayak much faster than you could swim after it, and it doesn't take much of a breeze to do so. Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi all, Tom asked about bolting fittings to a rotomoulded boat and Dave Seng suggested a sealant. Make sure also that there's a large diameter washer on the inside to spread loads. As for the decklines, use real rope, at least 6mm. There was recently a ruckus here when the owner of a CD Storm complained to the manufacturers about the 4mm decklines on it: remember 6mm is the accepted minimum, and bigger is better. (For the Australian 'standards', see <www.canoesa.asn.au/ed/seakayak.html>.) Cheers, Peter pcarter_at_acslink.net.au allegedly <www.acslink.net.au/~pcarter> temporarily <users.senet.com.au/~pcarter> 34deg 55' 24.1" S 138deg 32' 9.8" E (GDA-94) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter Carter wrote: > As for the decklines, use real rope, at least 6mm. There was recently a > ruckus here when the owner of a CD Storm complained to the manufacturers > about the 4mm decklines on it: remember 6mm is the accepted minimum, and > bigger is better. (For the Australian 'standards', see > <www.canoesa.asn.au/ed/seakayak.html>.) > Thanks for the link, Peter. This raises a question that I'd like to toss out for the collective wisdom - that of decklines. The site referenced above indicates that a minimum of 6 mm line should be used for decklines, and that the decklines attachment points to the hull should be no further than 75 cm (29.5 inches) apart. My boat differs from these guidelines, as it is outfitted with 5 mm (3/16 inch) towlines that double as a deck lines - both front and back. This is a workable system, even though the attachment points are at cleats/loops near the cockpit and at the bow/stern fittings, which translates into attachment point separations of 190cm (75") in front, and 170cm (67") in the rear. My bow deckline can be deployed as a tow line of either 190cm or 571cm (225") length, with its attachment point at the bow fitting of my boat. The stern deck/tow line can be deployed as a towline of either 340cm (134") or 680cm (268"), has a shock-absorbing two foot length of thick elastic cord built in to the line, and is attached to a cleat on the deck just behind the cockpit, near the side (no rudder). Having a deckline system do double duty as a tow system makes sense, as less equipment is carried on deck, and it's *always* there. Of course, a bigger diameter deckline is easier on the hands for the person holding onto the line, either for rescuing a so-equipped boat, or for having a swimmer hanging on to a so-equipped rescue boat. Is there some reason why towlines should not do double duty as decklines (or vice versa)? The only downside that I have experienced is that it takes some assistance to reattach the towline as a deckline once it has been deployed. I can also imagine that if I were to use my bow-attached towline for a backwards tow, it would be difficult to release from my boat in the case of an emergency - as it's tied into the bow fitting, which is out of reach from the cockpit. The stern tow line can be more easily released from the cleat just aft of the cockpit, and is within easy reach of a knife. Even with the inability to easily release a backward tow from the bow, I *do* like the idea of having one (set of) line(s) do double duty. I recall that there was a discussion on tow lines a while back, but I don't recall any discussions on deck lines. What do PW'ers use for decklines?? Regards, Erik Sprenne *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Erik: I use 8mm decklines, which run around the edges of the fore and aft decks, but not beside the cockpit. Toggles at the ends of the boat are spliced in to the decklines. These advantages come to mind: 1. a swimmer can use the edge decklines to move along the boat, or move the boat along, more easily than with a central, relatively loose towline. 2. a rescuer in a T rescue can reach the deckline on the far side of the boat and use that to hold the victim's boat steady during re-entry 3. there is a line at most points around the boat to grab it when retrieving the boat after a surf swim 4. various bungies and straps can be attached to the decklines for attaching paddlefloats, spare paddles, hatch tethers, deck bags, kitchen sink etc. 5. a variable attachment point is available for short tow ropes, when a very short tow is used with the towed paddler's boat overlapping the rescuer's boat half a hull. However, I haven't tried the system you describe. Have you found your towline to be too short if towing in swells? I feel that a 15 metre towline is about right to avoid the towed boat surfing into the back of the tower. And how long was the now famous Storm Island Epic towline? (The Troll is at work!) PT. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter Treby <ptreby_at_ozemail.com.au> wrote: > I use 8mm decklines, which run around the edges of the fore and aft decks, > but not beside the cockpit. Toggles at the ends of the boat are spliced in > to the decklines. > I probably didn't describe my system well enough - my deck/tow lines also run at both edges of the boat (but not next to the cockpit), both fore and aft: Bow: The line is tied to the bow toggle attachment point, runs back along one edge of boat to an attachment fitting (not sure of proper name, but its a plate with an inverted U loop), where a spring clip (that slides on the line) attaches the line to the fitting. The line then continues back to the bow, through the loop that attaches the line to the bow toggle fitting, and then runs back along the other edge to a similar U fitting on the other side, attached again with a spring clip in a loop at the end of the line. There is just enough slack in the line to allow for the detachment of one of the spring clips. For the shorter tow line, only the spring clip at the bitter end of line is detached, and for the longer tow line, the spring clips on both sides are detached, allowing the full length of the line to play out. Stern: Two cleats were attached to the deck, just behind the cockpit, at both edges of the boat. The tow/deck line attachment point is at one of these cleats. The line then runs back along one edge to the stern toggle attachement loop, back up the other edge to just behind the cockpit, around the cleat, and then back again through the stern toggle attachment loop and back to the first cleat, where the first loop of a double loop in the bitter end fits over the cleat. This system has some 'give' to it because there is an elastic damper in the first length of line nearest the original attachment point consisting of a heavy piece of elastic cord. The deck/tow line is attached to both ends of this elastic cord, and is loosely spiral-wound along the length of the elastic shock cord. To deploy the tow line, the loop in the bitter end is removed from the cleat on one side, and the line is removed from around the cleat on the other side, allowing the full length of the line to play out. For the shorter tow line, the bitter end of the tow line is passed through the towee's bow loop, and then back to one of the cleats, and for the longer tow line, the full length of the line is used, with a carabiner attaching the line to the towee's bow loop. > These advantages come to mind: > 1. a swimmer can use the edge decklines to move along the boat, or move the > boat along, more easily than with a central, relatively loose towline. > Ditto > 2. a rescuer in a T rescue can reach the deckline on the far side of the > boat and use that to hold the victim's boat steady during re-entry > Ditto, although my system may have a bit more 'slop'. But I prefer to hold the cockpit rim when assisting someone in a re-entry. > 3. there is a line at most points around the boat to grab it when retrieving > the boat after a surf swim > Ditto > 4. various bungies and straps can be attached to the decklines for attaching > paddlefloats, spare paddles, hatch tethers, deck bags, kitchen sink etc. > One of the reasons that I have this system is so I don't have to load up the deck with the 'kitchen sink'. (I do have elastic cords to hold a spare paddle and a water bottle, and another cleat in front of the cockpit is my paddle tether attachment point.) > 5. a variable attachment point is available for short tow ropes, when a very > short tow is used with the towed paddler's boat overlapping the rescuer's > boat half a hull. > Ditto. > However, I haven't tried the system you describe. Have you found your > towline to be too short if towing in swells? I feel that a 15 metre towline > is about right to avoid the towed boat surfing into the back of the tower. > Most of my paddling is done on the Great Lakes (Michigan and Superior), and we don't have much swell to contend with, although the wind can kick up some pretty good sized waves. The few times I've used the tow line there have not been any problems, but I've not towed anyone through surf. I also carry a throw line that can be used as a longer tow line. Regards, Erik *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Erik, Thanks for your message. There are good reasons for decklines and towlines being entirely separate. One is that towlines for use at sea may need to be 15m or so long: rather longer than a line from stern to cockpit, even doubled. On long tows, being able to swap the line from one boat to another makes it easy to swap towers, set up double tows, and so on. Another is that the boat may need to be grabbed while its towline is deployed: a trailing line isn't much help in that situation. A third good reason is that long (and springy) lines don't give a secure grip, hence the 75cm spacing between fixing points. As you're aware, the reason for 6mm being the minimum is that anything thinner can be uncomfortable, even hazardous to cold, wet hands. (I know of a case where hands were cut on 4mm line.) Thicker line, say 10mm, is much more comfortable and safer. There's nothing cosmetic about Australian deckline and towline systems: practicality, borne out of experience, is the guiding principle. Cheers, Peter pcarter_at_acslink.net.au allegedly <www.acslink.net.au/~pcarter> temporarily <users.senet.com.au/~pcarter> 34deg 55' 24.1" S 138deg 32' 9.8" E (GDA-94) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Erik: Thanks for the fuller description of your system. I suppose your boat does not have a rudder to interfere with the towline at the stern? After the towline has been deployed, and while on the water, do you have to have assistance from another paddler to replace the lines in their original setup positions? This might be a disadvantage on a long crossing with towing required at times, followed by a big surf landing with a swim in... you might not have your decklines. As Peter Carter points out, both the decklines and the towing system might be required at the same time. On towlines, the bungy shock absorber seems important. There is a description of a "combat" tow situation at http://www.tassie.net.au/~lford/bassdunn.htm reinforcing the need for a shock absorbing link. PT. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Thanks for the fuller description of your system. > I suppose your boat does not have a rudder to interfere with the towline at the > stern? > It does not > After the towline has been deployed, and while on the water, do you have to have > assistance from another paddler to replace the lines in their original setup > positions? This might be a disadvantage on a long crossing with towing required > at times, followed by a big surf landing with a swim in... you might not have > your decklines. > Yes, assistance is needed to reset the tow lines into deck lines. The stern line can be removed rather than being reset as a deck line, or recovered and stowed. The bow line cannot be removed, but can be recovered and stowed until it can be reset. > As Peter Carter points out, both the decklines and the towing > system might be required at the same time. > Good point, although I've not run into this situation - yet - and I don't care to. >On towlines, the bungy shock absorber seems important. There is a description of > a "combat" tow situation at http://www.tassie.net.au/~lford/bassdunn.htm > reinforcing the need for a shock absorbing link. > Nice story, and great trip! I wonder whether a double in-line tow - even if the bungee shock absorbing links were present - is more effective than swtching off on single tows? Seems to me that the slack and shock cycling is bad enough with a single tow system, but that a double in-line tow would result inso much jerkiness that it would be uncomfortable for the towers, and also waste a lot of energy in dealing with the three-body slack and shock cycles. Any comments on the relative merits of single vs. double-in-line tows? I appreciate the comments of both Peters on the topic of decklines. I have volunteered to hold a rescue training session for our club in mid-July, and decklines will certainly be one of the topics covered. The site that Peter Carter referenced (www.canoesa.asn.au/ed/seakayak.html) has the most detailed information about decklines that I've seen. If anyone can point me towards any other information on the Internet about decklines and/or tow systems, I would appreciate it. Regards, Erik Sprenne *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Any comments on the relative merits of single vs. double-in-line tows?" I only have experience of single tows in practice situations, fortunately, to date. I'll post news of any more harrowing double tows if they should occur. PT *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sunday PT asks:> "Any comments on the relative merits of single vs. double-in-line tows?" In my experience two in line is a sweet way to go. The strongest paddler at the lead position and bungie shock absorbers between each towee. I have yet to get a V double tow to work, something is always tangled, in the way, or generally futzing up the system. Steve Scherrer Alder Creek Kayak and Canoe 250 NE Tomahawk Isle Dr Portland, OR 97217 Phone: 503.285.0464 Fax: 503.285.0106 Web site: http://www.aldercreek.com Email: acks_at_teleport.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Steve, Do you really think that a bungee makes much difference? I find using 3mm line that there is usually enough stretch that I don't find much shock on my tow line. Say hi to Cindy for me. Cheers, Rob Cookson "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" Benjamin Franklin > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of AlderCreek > Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2000 6:21 PM > > On Sunday PT asks:> "Any comments on the relative merits of > single vs. double-in-line tows?" > > > In my experience two in line is a sweet way to go. The strongest > paddler at the lead position and bungie shock absorbers between > each towee. I have yet to get a V double tow to work, something > is always tangled, in the way, or generally futzing up the system. > ********* *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The bungie seems to do what it's suppose to <absorb shock> between the tower and towee. I've done a multi hour pull through 3-4' swell with two inline. I use a rescue vest <Kokatat>with the bungie tow line <50'> sure seems to work well. Steve Alder Creek Kayak and Canoe 250 NE Tomahawk Isle Dr Portland, OR 97217 Phone: 503.285.0464 Fax: 503.285.0106 Web site: http://www.aldercreek.com Email: acks_at_teleport.com ______________________________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob Cookson" <rob_cookson_at_mindspring.com> To: "AlderCreek" <acks_at_teleport.com>; "Paddlewise (E-mail)" <Paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2000 6:25 PM Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Towing systems <was: Decklines> > Hi Steve, > > Do you really think that a bungee makes much difference? I find using 3mm > line that there is usually enough stretch that I don't find much shock on my > tow line. > > Say hi to Cindy for me. > > Cheers, > > Rob Cookson > "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary > safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" > Benjamin Franklin > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > > [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of AlderCreek > > Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2000 6:21 PM > > > > On Sunday PT asks:> "Any comments on the relative merits of > > single vs. double-in-line tows?" > > > > > > In my experience two in line is a sweet way to go. The strongest > > paddler at the lead position and bungie shock absorbers between > > each towee. I have yet to get a V double tow to work, something > > is always tangled, in the way, or generally futzing up the system. > > ********* > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 5/18/00 6:46:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time, sprenne_at_netnitco.net writes: > > Bow: > The line is tied to the bow toggle attachment point, runs back along one > edge of boat to an attachment fitting (not sure of proper name, but its a > plate with an inverted U loop), where a spring clip (that slides on the > line) attaches the line to the fitting. The line then continues back to the > bow, through the loop that attaches the line to the bow toggle fitting, and > then runs back along the other edge to a similar U fitting on the other > side, attached again with a spring clip in a loop at the end of the line. > There is just enough slack in the line to allow for the detachment of one of > the spring clips. For the shorter tow line, only the spring clip at the > bitter end of line is detached, and for the longer tow line, the spring > clips on both sides are detached, allowing the full length of the line to > play out. Some of the advantages of having a front towline like this is that you can also use it as a painter to: 1. tie your boat up; 2. line your boat around obstacles; and (IMHO most importantly), 3. to allow you to attach the bitter end of a throw bag or tow line to the bow of your own craft without needing the tower to approach your bow during rough or dangerous conditions. If you need to be towed, the tower throws you a towline, you catch or pick up the loose end of the towline and clip its biner/clip onto the painter. The biner slides up the painter to the bow as the tower tightens the line, allowing them to tow you from your bow without approaching your boat. One possible improvement to your system is to add one more length of line, and (instead of tying the fixed end to the bow), run the painter through another eye at the bow, back to the cockpit. The fixed end is fastened near the cockpit by tying with a slip (reef) knot (or you can run it through a jamb cleat). If you are being towed, and you clip the towline onto this last leg of line, you can release yourself from the tow by tripping the knot or releasing the fixed end of the rope from the cleat. The fastened end of the painter is pulled through the towline biner/clip, releasing you from the tow. The working end of your rig cannot do this because the clip on the end will not slide through the towline biner or clip. I have such a system on the front of my personal boat, in addition to full perimeter decklines. Harold Who just received his new Khats in So Cal 8^) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi all... Peter Treby wrote (in part): >I use 8mm decklines, which run around the edges of the fore and aft decks, >but not beside the cockpit. No reason why decklines should not run past the cockpit if they're properly secured and tensioned. The deckline can then be one continuous piece, and if it's removable, it can be used for other tasks in emergencies (e.g. hauling things up cliffs after forced landings). >2. a rescuer in a T rescue can reach the deckline on the far side of the >boat and use that to hold the victim's boat steady during re-entry I'm not sure where in Aus Peter is, but the terminology used in Aus Canoeing courses is 'Wedge Rescue' and 'Swimmer-assisted Rescue'. (See <users.senet.com.au/~pcarter/rescues.html>) >4. various bungies and straps can be attached to the decklines for attaching >paddlefloats, spare paddles, hatch tethers, deck bags, kitchen sink etc. Better to keep the deckline as deckline, and have separate fixtures for the other things. (As for paddle floats, see the URL above.) >However, I haven't tried the system you describe. Have you found your >towline to be too short if towing in swells? I feel that a 15 metre towline >is about right to avoid the towed boat surfing into the back of the tower. Agreed. Aus towlines in the past have usually been of ski rope, with shock cord threaded through to absorb sudden loads, and a snaplink at each end. Current trend is to use 4 or 5mm line, carried in a small bag with hook and loop closure, and chain-linked to shorten it. More compact. (There's no conflict with the 6mm minimum rule here, since the towline is not held by hand.) Cheers, Peter pcarter_at_acslink.net.au allegedly <www.acslink.net.au/~pcarter> temporarily <users.senet.com.au/~pcarter> 34deg 55' 24.1" S 138deg 32' 9.8" E (GDA-94) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter Carter wrote: "No reason why decklines should not run past the cockpit if they're properly secured and tensioned." Two thoughts here: First, I don't like having anything that can take the skin off your hand if you take a wild paddle stroke. So decklines running past the cockpit would need to be sufficiently inboard to avoid this risk. And, some have theorised that if a boat breaks in two with the paddler still in the cockpit, it's better to have the two halves unconnected. I find it hard to imagine this. "The deckline can then be one continuous piece, and if it's removable, it can be used for other tasks in emergencies (e.g.hauling things up cliffs after forced landings)." It's probably more convenient to have other line available, rather than dismantling the decklines. The flush deck mountings on my Pittarak are tight for 8mm line, so this would be difficult. > "I'm not sure where in Aus Peter is, but the terminology used in Aus Canoeing > courses is 'Wedge Rescue' and Swimmer-assisted Rescue'. > (See<users.senet.com.au/~pcarter/rescues.html>)" Melbourne, mate. What's in a name? The USA seems to use T rescue. Avoiding this is no doubt to get past the idea that the rescued boat has to be at right angles to the rescuers boat. One style of T or wedge rescue, as described by Colin Calder on this list, has the rescuer's boat capsizing away from the rescued boat, and does seem to require boats at something more like a right angle. > "Better to keep the deckline as deckline, and have separate fixtures for the > other things." Not sure why. Passing a few bungies under the lines doesn't seem to interfere with function. > "(As for paddle floats, see the URL above.)" I disagree with the idea that paddlefloats have no place, if that is what is suggested here. I don't disagree that a roll is the best rescue by far. But, refer to Rob Cookson's post describing the latest Norwegian stability Trolls. One of the three great lies could be "I've never blown a roll". Why not have a paddle float as a backup, and be competent at using it in various ways? Why not have two, and be able to stabilise a victim's boat both sides with an outrigger setup and tow them? Why only a roll, and re-enter and roll? What about paddlers who cannot roll as yet? I imagine that dismissing paddlefloats as an option is for the purpose of making sure paddlers are encouraged to develop a sold roll. But let's not reject everything else. Regards, PT. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi all, I hadn't realised that Peter Treby had sent his reply to the list also. Here's my response... Peter, Thanks for your reply. To respond... >Two thoughts here: First, I don't like having anything that can take the >skin off >your hand if you take a wild paddle stroke. So decklines running past the >cockpit >would need to be sufficiently inboard to avoid this risk. I've never had any problem with decklines, or the hand rails on Voyager. Any fittings proud of the deck are a different matter of course. > And, some have >theorised that if a boat breaks in two with the paddler still in the cockpit, >it's better to have the two halves unconnected. I find it hard to imagine >this. In the three cases I know of (Steve Jacobs, David Williamson and Phil Doddridge (Phil's boat didn't break, it bent)) that wasn't a problem. In any case, the two pieces would still be connected by rudder cables. >It's probably more convenient to have other line available, rather than >dismantling the decklines. The flush deck mountings on my Pittarak are >tight for >8mm line, so this would be difficult. Perhaps, but that means you're carrying another rope. Takes only a couple of minutes to remove or rethread. As for those deck fittings, I'm not sure whether you should blame Larry Gray or Derek Hutchinson. Flush deck fittings are invariably too small, which is why I no longer use them but use moulded channels beneath the deck. >Melbourne, mate. What's in a name? The USA seems to use T rescue. Simply that this is not the US, and there's no need for us to copy US practice. Much of what they're reinventing was known to serious Australian, especially Tasmanian, paddlers 20 or more years ago. >I disagree with the idea that paddlefloats have no place... Two problems with paddle float rescues, which seem to be promoted mainly for less-skilled paddlers. First is that even when you've got yourself back in you're in a vulnerable position without means of propulsion. That's especially true of US practice which depends on manual pumps. Better to have a boat that is controllable with the cockpit flooded and use a 'no hands' pump system. In a group situation rafting is a better proposition. The other is the false sense of security, especially for the solo paddler, where seamanship would suggest prudence. In driving instruction, is it better to teach advanced driving skills or teach avoidance of situations that may lead to problems? Current view favours the latter. In flying instruction, does one teach spin recovery, or avoidance of situations that lead to stalls and spins? (That one sank in one day when I had a C-172 in an awkward attitude; and I had been taught spinning.) Better to learn proper paddle and bracing skills, and when to stay on shore. Yes, rolls and re-entry and roll can fail, but what were you doing in that situation in the first place? Cheers, Peter pcarter_at_acslink.net.au allegedly <www.acslink.net.au/~pcarter> temporarily <users.senet.com.au/~pcarter> 34deg 55' 24.1" S 138deg 32' 9.8" E (GDA-94) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> -----Original Message----- > From: Peter Carter [mailto:pcarter_at_acslink.net.au] > I'm not sure > whether you should blame Larry Gray or Derek Hutchinson. Flush deck > fittings are invariably too small, which is why I no longer > use them but > use moulded channels beneath the deck. Peter, This sounds like an interesting concept, but I cannot quite picture what it is that you're talking about when you mention "moulded channels beneath the deck". Does the perimeter line run in channels moulded into the deck (set below the surface). If so what are the dimensions of the channels (depth & width)? Who makes kayaks with the setup you've described? What kind of fibreglass layup is the deck made of? Thanks, Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave, Thanks for your message... >> use moulded channels beneath the deck. ... > > This sounds like an interesting concept, but I cannot quite picture what >it is that you're talking about when you mention "moulded channels beneath >the deck". Does the perimeter line run in channels moulded into the deck >(set below the surface). If so what are the dimensions of the channels >(depth & width)? Who makes kayaks with the setup you've described? What >kind of fibreglass layup is the deck made of? The 'channels' are pre-moulded things glassed into the deck during layup. The main one is 11cm long, 25mm wide and 20mm deep at its widest and deepest. At bow and stern there's a larger, almost hemispherical shape to accomodate deckline and toggle cord. They're made of scrap glass (one layer), and I have a set of 15 or so moulds for them. Normal deck layup is two layers of 450g/m2 mat. At the fitting point, a bit of extra scrap mat, and the channel is glassed over. With the boat out of the mould the holes are drilled. To see what they look like, from the outside at least, look at the white boat on the page <www.canoesa.asn.au/ed/seakayak.html>. For one off fittings, drill two holes 10cm or so apart and thread a piece of PVC tube through. Put a couple of layers of glass on the inside and pull out the tube when it's set. This way of doing things is rather more labor intensive than commercial builders like, which is why they mould dimples in the deck or bolt things on. HTH. Let me know if you want pics of the inside. Cheers, Peter pcarter_at_acslink.net.au allegedly <www.acslink.net.au/~pcarter> temporarily <users.senet.com.au/~pcarter> 34deg 55' 24.1" S 138deg 32' 9.8" E (GDA-94) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> -----Original Message----- > From: Peter Carter [mailto:pcarter_at_acslink.net.au] > The 'channels' are pre-moulded things glassed into the deck > during layup. > The main one is 11cm long, 25mm wide and 20mm deep at its widest and > deepest. At bow and stern there's a larger, almost > hemispherical shape to > accomodate deckline and toggle cord. They're made of scrap glass (one > layer), and I have a set of 15 or so moulds for them. SNIP > To see what they look like, from the outside at least, look > at the white > boat on the page <www.canoesa.asn.au/ed/seakayak.html>. Thanks Peter. Now it makes sense. I like the idea, but can also understand why the idea hasn't really caught on with major manufacturers....the more custom hand work involved the less profitable the end result - unless you can find a niche market willing to pay a premium for the work. I'm a relative beginner when it comes to fibreglass work, but I'm curious - could you do the same type of thing using cloth rather than mat? Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Seng asked: >Thanks Peter. Now it makes sense. I like the idea, but can also >understand why the idea hasn't really caught on with major >manufacturers....the more custom hand work involved the less profitable the >end result - unless you can find a niche market willing to pay a premium for >the work. > > I'm a relative beginner when it comes to fibreglass work, but I'm curious >- - could you do the same type of thing using cloth rather than mat? It would need to be very light cloth. Wetted out mat drapes more easily over complex little shapes. Cheers, Peter pcarter_at_acslink.net.au allegedly <www.acslink.net.au/~pcarter> temporarily <users.senet.com.au/~pcarter> 34deg 55' 24.1" S 138deg 32' 9.8" E (GDA-94) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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