I was finally getting confident in my roll. I was using my regular paddling grip (not extended) and even rolling out in the bay. The waves did not bother me but the jellyfish stopped me a couple of times. Some other paddlers had asked me to help them learn to roll and I agreed. I bought a copy of "Grace Under Pressure" to help my roll and especially to get some pointers on teaching the roll. The lessons went ok. They never did do a complete roll by themselves, but they both could get back up if they started out with the paddle out to the side of the kayak. We will have to work on set-up and the sweep next session. We also got some good rescue practice in (both self and assisted). My roll worked fine during the day of the lesson. I came home and really studied the video hoping to get pointers for the next lesson. Today I went out to practice and MY ROLL IS GONE! I worked for about 45 minutes and nothing seemed to work. I even used a paddle float and barely got back up with that. I guess that just goes to show PRIDE GOETH BEFORE A SWIM. I sure hope it gets better before it gets worse (if it could get any worse). Mark J. Arnold MJAkayaker_at_aol.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
MJAkayaker_at_aol.com wrote: > I was finally getting confident in my roll. ...snip... MY ROLL IS GONE! > ...snip... I used to teach a lot of tennis and am a big fan of Timothy Gallwey's "Inner Tennis" approach. He wrote a few books about it, but basically you try to give the mind something useful to observe about the body's actions (on a scale of one to ten, how loose was your wrist on that serve?) or the results of those actions (how high above the net did the ball go?) so the body can go to work on its own and improve on those results. If you pinpoint the right thing to focus on, the results can be magical and astounding. This as opposed to the traditional teaching method of telling the student exactly where each body part is supposed to be at each point in the movement sequence. Too much input from the mind only confuses the body. I'm guessing that is what happened to Mark from watching the video too closely. Since I don't know how to roll, and I want to learn this summer, and I want some of the aforementioned "astounding" results, and Mark wants his roll back, I am hoping some of the paddling gurus out there might take a stab at "Inner Rolling." That is, if they can do it without referring to eyeballs or stomachs. Thanks in advance for any help offered. Richard Frost *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Less is more. Rob Cookson "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" Benjamin Franklin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rolling is easy and effortless. Rob Cookson "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" Benjamin Franklin > -----Original Message----- > > Less is more. > > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Relax and let your body float. The roll is a smooth free-flowing rotation of the boat and the body, not a series of un-related and jerky body movements. > > > Less is more. > > Rolling is easy and effortless. > > > > > Rob Cookson > > "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little > temporary safety > deserve neither liberty nor safety" > Benjamin Franklin > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > > > ****************************************************************** > ********* > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the > author and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > ****************************************************************** > ********* *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rolling is an exercise in flexibility not strength. Work on your roll at the office by standing and stretching while you're on the phone. Stretch, relax and imagine yourself under your boat calm and composed. > > > Less is more. > > > > Rolling is easy and effortless. > > > > Relax and let your body float. The roll is a smooth free-flowing rotation > of the boat and the body, not a series of un-related and jerky body > movements. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hang out upside down under your boat often. Teach yourself that this is a safe place to be. Learn to relax and think from this unnatural position. Wear nose clips and goggles or a mask to increase your comfort under the boat. You'll look like a dork but so what, your friends won't think it's so dorky when you show them your new hand roll. Take your time and do a quality set-up. Take your time and do a quality set up. It is much better to do one carefully planned and flawless roll than to miss two and come up on a third with an extended paddle and requiring a reverse sweep to finish with. That said, it is better to come up on a sloppy third attempt with an extended paddle than it is to swim. > > > > > Less is more. > > > > > > Rolling is easy and effortless. > > > > > > > Relax and let your body float. The roll is a smooth > free-flowing rotation > > of the boat and the body, not a series of un-related and jerky body > > movements. > Rolling is an exercise in flexibility not strength. Work on your roll at > the office by standing and stretching while you're on the phone. Stretch, > relax and imagine yourself under your boat calm and composed. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Get out all of your books that talk about the sweep roll and cross out the section that tells you to maintain a climbing angle on the sweeping blade. Strive for a neutral position with no resistance on the paddle. A climbing angle is awkward and unneeded. Focus on sweeping your head body and paddle as one, there is very little arm movement involved. See tip #1 less is more. > > > > > > > Less is more. > > > > > > > > Rolling is easy and effortless. > > > > > > > > > > Relax and let your body float. The roll is a smooth > > free-flowing rotation > > > of the boat and the body, not a series of un-related and jerky body > > > movements. > > > Rolling is an exercise in flexibility not strength. Work on > your roll at > > the office by standing and stretching while you're on the > phone. Stretch, > > relax and imagine yourself under your boat calm and composed. > Hang out upside down under your boat often. Teach yourself that this is a > safe place to be. Learn to relax and think from this unnatural position. > Wear nose clips and goggles or a mask to increase your comfort under the > boat. You'll look like a dork but so what, your friends won't > think it's so > dorky when you show them your new hand roll. > > Take your time and do a quality set-up. Take your time and do a > quality set > up. It is much better to do one carefully planned and flawless > roll than to > miss two and come up on a third with an extended paddle and requiring a > reverse sweep to finish with. > > That said, it is better to come up on a sloppy third attempt with an > extended paddle than it is to swim. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Take breaks during your roll sessions. Stay hydrated. If you are working on open water (instead of a pool) make sure you stay warm and protect your head and ears from cold water. It's hard to roll when you are out of breath, frustrated, cold, or frightened. > > > > > > > > > > > Less is more. > > > > > > > > > > Rolling is easy and effortless. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Relax and let your body float. The roll is a smooth > > > free-flowing rotation > > > > of the boat and the body, not a series of un-related and jerky body > > > > movements. > > > > > Rolling is an exercise in flexibility not strength. Work on > > your roll at > > > the office by standing and stretching while you're on the > > phone. Stretch, > > > relax and imagine yourself under your boat calm and composed. > > > Hang out upside down under your boat often. Teach yourself that > this is a > > safe place to be. Learn to relax and think from this unnatural > position. > > Wear nose clips and goggles or a mask to increase your comfort under the > > boat. You'll look like a dork but so what, your friends won't > > think it's so > > dorky when you show them your new hand roll. > > > > Take your time and do a quality set-up. Take your time and do a > > quality set > > up. It is much better to do one carefully planned and flawless > > roll than to > > miss two and come up on a third with an extended paddle and requiring a > > reverse sweep to finish with. > > > > That said, it is better to come up on a sloppy third attempt with an > > extended paddle than it is to swim. > Get out all of your books that talk about the sweep roll and cross out the > section that tells you to maintain a climbing angle on the sweeping blade. > Strive for a neutral position with no resistance on the paddle. > A climbing > angle is awkward and unneeded. > > Focus on sweeping your head body and paddle as one, there is very > little arm > movement involved. See tip #1 less is more. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, 14 Jun 2000 09:57:44 Rob Cookson wrote: >If you are working on open water (instead of a pool) make sure you stay warm and protect your head and ears from cold water. It's hard to roll when you are out of breath, frustrated, cold, or frightened. Precisely. That's why I almost always remove my cold-water head gear at the end of my cold-water practice sessions and practice tired, cold and sometimes dizzy 'cause this forces me to focus on what I'm doing. Relaxing is (for me) more difficult when dizzy, cold and tired, but for me it is important to feel this way during practice sessions 'cause this may be how I'm going to be feeling when I need crisp skills the most. Just my $0.02. Spencer HotBot - Search smarter. http://www.hotbot.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark Arnold wrote: > I came home and really studied the video hoping to get pointers for the next lesson. Today I went out to practice and MY ROLL IS GONE! I worked for about 45 minutes and nothing seemed to work. I even used a paddle float and barely got back up with that. > Richard Frost then wrote: >> I'm guessing that is what happened to Mark from watching the video too closely. Since I don't know how to roll, and I want to learn this summer, and I want some of the aforementioned "astounding" results, and Mark wants his roll back, I am hoping some of the paddling gurus out there might take a stab at "Inner Rolling." >> not sure I qualify for the title of guru, but having taught many to roll, my "Inner Rolling" contribution is : Try to keep the paddle and the upper body moving in unison. As the paddle is swept out to the side from the set-up position, the upper body should stay parallel to the shaft of the paddle. Visualize this by drawing an imaginary line from the center of the top of your head to the point in the middle of your upper body right behind the bottom of your sternum. This imaginary line should stay as parallel as possible to the shaft of your paddle during the initial sweep from the set-up position out to the side. Beyond the first part of the sweep, the longer one can keep this imaginary line parallel to the shaft of the paddle, the more effortless the roll will be (this requires some hip action to flip the boat *under* the lower body). This is not a full description of the roll, but one aspect of a solid roll. If you can't find someone to critique your roll, have someone videotape it and compare your roll to that in the rolling video. Regards, Erik Sprenne *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
While he process Richard & Galways use is "focus" to bring these processes into consciousness, the brain seems to do this on its own. It's well known among learning theorists that before the breakthrough, it's common for the student to get worse. It's believed this is part of the learning curve. Robert > From: Richard Frost <maloneme_at_gwi.net> > Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 23:47:28 -0400 > To: MJAkayaker_at_aol.com > Cc: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] To Roll No More > > If you pinpoint the right thing to focus on, the > results can be magical and astounding. This as opposed to the traditional > teaching method of telling the student exactly where each body part is > supposed > to be at each point in the movement sequence. Too much input from the mind > only > confuses the body. > > I'm guessing that is what happened to Mark from watching the video too > closely. > Since I don't know how to roll, and I want to learn this summer, and I want > some > of the aforementioned "astounding" results, and Mark wants his roll back, I am > hoping some of the paddling gurus out there might take a stab at "Inner > Rolling." *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Richard Frost <maloneme_at_gwi.net> wrote: MJAkayaker_at_aol.com wrote: > I was finally getting confident in my roll. ...snip... MY ROLL IS GONE! > ...snip... >>I used to teach a lot of tennis and am a big fan of Timothy Gallwey's "Inner Tennis" approach. He wrote a few books about it, but basically you try to give the mind something useful to observe about the body's actions (on a scale of one to ten, how loose was your wrist on that serve?) or the results of those actions (how high above the net did the ball go?) so the body can go to work on its own and improve on those results. If you pinpoint the right thing to focus on, the results can be magical and astounding. This as opposed to the traditional teaching method of telling the student exactly where each body part is supposed to be at each point in the movement sequence. Too much input from the mind only confuses the body. I'm guessing that is what happened to Mark from watching the video too closely. Since I don't know how to roll, and I want to learn this summer, and I want some of the aforementioned "astounding" results, and Mark wants his roll back, I am hoping some of the paddling gurus out there might take a stab at "Inner Rolling." That is, if they can do it without referring to eyeballs or stomachs. Thanks in advance for any help offered.<< Just what I was thinking Robert, thanks for saying it so well. I have observed the same phenomena in ski instruction, overanalyzing and teaching body positions just makes the body too mechanical. The teaching system in the 60's and 70's anyhow (when I paid at least a little attention to it) created what I thought of as "robot skiers fresh off the assembly line". Set a goal and turn your body loose on the project (and I'm including the mind as part of the body here too, prior restraint on what you allow yourself to think just cripples the mind. Censor what you say, not what you can think). Here is what I wrote in "Freestyle Skiing" in the 70's. "Another point I want to make is that you don't have to consciously know what you are doing in order to do it. Reading the technical description which follows probably won't be much help in your learning to be a mogul bomber except that it might release you from some "rules" that get in the way of learning. Consider this an argument to get you to abandon planning what to do and let your body take over and find its own technique. Don't tell your body what to do just push it to go faster. Forget the rules you know. They will only limit you." Later I wrote: "Your body is a good imitator and learns only from experience. Let it alone to do its job. In mogul bombing there isn't time to check yourself out with the "rules." Rules are rigid and your body is dynamic. Rules are unnecessary limitations. FREE YOURSELF OF NEEDLESS RESTRAINT." In a Zen story a caterpillar is asked how he walks with so many legs to keep track of. He stops to think about it and can't take another step. Mark can probably relate to that caterpillar. There is a method to help you learn to roll without having to understand it (or picture it while you are upside down) on our website in the "Rescues" manual. You put a float on your paddle so you can do things in slow motion without losing your position. Start from the finish of the roll and work backwards towards the start in small steps (while succeeding at each step along the way rather than practicing failure). Windup and unwind. You've always just been there a few seconds before during the windup so you don't get confused about what to do and where to go next and have to think about it. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 12:58 AM 6/7/00 -0700, Matt Broze wrote: >Richard Frost <maloneme_at_gwi.net> wrote: > >MJAkayaker_at_aol.com wrote: > >> I was finally getting confident in my roll. ...snip... MY ROLL IS GONE! >> ...snip... > >>>I used to teach a lot of tennis and am a big fan of Timothy Gallwey's >"Inner >Tennis" approach. > > >Just what I was thinking Robert, thanks for saying it so well. > >I have observed the same phenomena in ski instruction, overanalyzing and >teaching body positions just makes the body too mechanical. Timothy Gallwey also collaberated on a book called "Inner Skiing" with Bob Kriegal. When I worked I Hewlett Packard I joined their ski club and they had Mr. Kriegal come in as a guest speaker. He gave some remarkable demonstrations of "mind over body". After the talk, I began to use "Inner Skiing" methods when I went skiing. I don't know if it helped but a few years later I was competing on Hewlett Packards race team. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
We use the paddle float method to learn how to roll in Missouri too. I think this situation happens at least once to everyone - you "forget" your roll and have to work hard to regain it! It is funny to see someone who has been rolling for years forget it. It has happened to me too. Right now I forgot my offside roll, which was formerly stronger than my onside roll. I appreciate your frustration! Looks like we have plenty of advice.... Tim CD Squall, Necky Looksha IV *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I wrote the following reply back channel to Richard concerning the "Inner" approach to rolling. He thought there were some good points to it and had gotten similar information in some other back-channel replies. He suggested I post it to the list so for what its worth: > > I am sure "analysis paralysis" had a lot to do with my problems. I am also a > former tennis instructor and a fan of the "Inner Game". There are a couple > of problems with applying those principles to rolling. One is the > observation problem. Galloway emphasized a lot of visualization, > particullarly of a good player. The idea was that you had already seen how > to do it and knew it in the subconcious. With rolling it is very difficult > to watch a good roller and see what is going on since much of it is happening > underwater. Working with someone in a clear pool is a real help here. > Watching from up high and from underwater is a real plus. The other problem > is relaxation. Throw some salt-water in Tim's eyes, wrap a plastic bag > around his head so he cannot breath and then tell him you will take the bag > off when he hits that nice slice server that pulls the opponent off the > court. Somehow visualization and relaxation just are not so easy to do in > that situation. Again working in a pool with someone standing right by you > to pull you up if you miss helps you be able to relax (it also saves all that > time dumping water out of the boat). > > I think you are right on track about finding that one item to focus on. I > thought I had mine (which was looking behind me at the end of the roll to > emphasze the layback). One method of teaching is to start with the last part > of the skill and then progressively work to doing more of the whole skill as > each part is mastered. I think this works much better since it is a lot > easier for the student to focus on one point of feedback. You can teach > layback, bend and knee-lift without paddle, roll with paddle and body > perpendicular to kayak, sweep with instructor setting up the paddle, and > finally student turning over boat and doing the whole thing. Each step > practices the things learned in the previous steps and adds a new item. The > Young American Bowling Alliance uses this method of teaching bowling to kids. > It is very effective and less frustrating for both instructor and student. > I think most rolling instructors use this method, but I have seen several > that just go from the bend and knee-lift without paddle step to student > turning over step. > > Best of luck learning to roll this summer. >> If you have to work by yourself the paddle-float assist method that Matt and Jed talked about is great. When I was having my problems yesterday I switched over to that method. I never really felt that I was rolling correctly, but at least I was not spending all my time swimming and dumping water out of the boat. When using the float I try to judge my success by the amount of force I feel I am applying to the paddle. The less force the better. Its hard to quantify, but when you get the good bend and knee-lift you can feel how much less you pull on the paddle. Mark J. Arnold MJAkayaker_at_aol.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I missed a couple of rolls during my first roll session last winter and was very surprised. My son was watching the second time and said that it looked like instead of a hip snap I was sitting up. Afterwards it occured to me that it was probably "muscle memory" taking over. I had just done quite a few rolls and became a little complacent. My body reverted to a stomach crunch as its "default motion" rather than a hip snap. I generally do 200-300 crunches per day as part of a regular workout routine and it is my theory that that muscle memory is more firmly implanted than the snap/roll reflex. I have worked on concentrating since that time. Someone posted a while back that a roll should never be done casually or haphazardly. I thought that was a little extreme at the time, but now agree. Maybe with enough repetition I will be able to roll without thinking about it, but for now mental concentration and a "can do" attitude are important. Walt Chudleigh p.s. the stomach crunches are great for strengthing the abs and back to avoid injury while rolling. I suffered through a whole summer with a pulled back muscle after rolling in a river several years back. No problems since increasing the number and variety of crunches. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I had a similar problem this weekend. On Sunday I started having problems and I stopped to analyze what was going on and determined I was not laying back on my roll up. Quickly fixed and confidence restored. The up side was that I got to practice my paddle float re-enter and roll...down side was that I got nailed with sea lice and was extremely sick on Monday morning. cu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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