Having installed aftermarket rails and racks from a manufacturer who also supplies them to Detroit, I no longer trust the strength of factory roof racks, particularly as regards resistance to lift. My full rig for a car-topped kayak is: -the usual straps holding the kayak to the load bar -two bow lines in an inverted "V" tied loosely to the front corners of the vehicle (to minimize side-to-side and to resist lift) -One stern line, also loose (to resist lift) -spring lines that consist of a bowline that goes around the yak and under the lip at each end of the cockpit and then run under the load bars to the bumpers. These keep the yak from moving fore-aft. With this set up, the yak will stay with the vehicle even if the rack fails. I recently used this rig to move a Greenland II on the roof of a Hyundai Accent whose rails were screwed into paper-thin sheet metal with teeny tiny screws. I did 75 for hours, with no problems. Also used it on a Tracker with aftermarket hardtop to travel with two full size composite yaks. You can tell how solid it is by grabbing one end of the yak and moving it around: If the whole car moves -- but not the yak with respect to the car -- then you have a solid arrangement. Ken Cooperstein *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Did you determine what failed? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I am not sure what failed, all of the plastic parts had come off of the towers when the rack hit the road, the kayak remained securely strapped to the saddles and slid along the road on the roof rack. What I think happened is the tower came loose on the bar so it was able to pop out of the window clip. If the boat had been tied down in the front and back I don't think this would have happened. As for the condition of my boat, it is in surprisingly good shape, it took a chunk of wood out of the stern and out of the bow, but since it slid along the road on the roof rack scratching was kept to a minimum. I should be able to start paddling it again tomarow night. I guess wood and fiberglass is a lot stronger then I had thought it would be. Chad *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Yikes. That's a frightening story. . . I gather from your follow-up that there was not a factory rack onto which the Yakima towers attached, but just the rain ledge attachments (or whatever you call them). What kind of car? I have always been wary of they bow/stern tie-downs, as it seems to me they put a lot of stress on the boat (and if you leave them loose enough so that they don't stress the boat, they just flop around in the wind and make noise. . . ). All of my cars have good factory racks and I use Thule (not that it's any better) stuff on all of them. For anything other than the half-mile from my house to the local harbor, I use two sets of straps -- the first set straps the boat to the Thule saddles; the second set wraps around the boat and under the factory rack. That way even if something on the Thule system were to fail, there is still a strong attachment to the factory system. I can't imagine this failing. Any comments? How many people really use bow and stern lines? Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, 18 Jul 2000, Sailboat Restorations, Inc. wrote: > Any comments? How many people > really use bow and stern lines? I do, although I will on occasion leave them off when I'm driving a WW boat < 5 miles in town. You want them just tight enough not to flap. Don't crank them down tight. Steve Cramer *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
<How many people > really use bow and stern lines?> Bow lines on longer trips. Never used stern lines. For short trips locally (about 2 miles at about 30 mph) I usually omit the bow lines and just go with 5/8" prussik cord tiedowns on the foredeck and afterdeck. In about 30 years of paddlign one thing and another, 7 years of kayaking, I've never had trouble. Bill Hansen Ithaca NY *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
For what it's worth I use the bow and stern lines to make sure the rack stays on ;-) Not exactly joking as I have a small pick up and the distance between the bars is only about 20 inches, so with a 2 - 5, 17-20 foot yaks on top, there is a lot of lever action. Most of my boats are a very heavy layup (I think the same guys that designed ChrisCraft cabin cruisers and Nordkapp kayaks did the layup work on my boat). I have managed to peel the rain gutters off while going over railroad tracks when I didn't have the bow and stern lines tight. I generally only worry about getting the first 2 boats tied at the bow and stern and then tie the other boats to the rack and to each other. As far as factory racks, I suspect that they are better attached, but even there a longer heavier boat could be a problem (I have seen one that was broken, but never asked how). Happy paddling - Saul __ © o -\_<, < \/ (*)/'(*) / 0 /> ______©/_______ Saul Kinderis / ` / ' saul_at_isomedia.com ^~^~^~^~^~^ 0 ^~^~^~^~^~^~ My web page is at: http://www.isomedia.com/homes/saul (425)402-3426 POB 2221, Bothell, WA, 98041 -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of Sailboat Restorations, Inc. Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2000 2:32 AM To: PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net; Chad Parrish Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Bow and Stern tie downs <snip>. . . I gather from your follow-up that there was not a factory rack onto which the Yakima towers attached, but just the rain ledge attachments (or whatever you call them). What kind of car? I have always been wary of they bow/stern tie-downs, as it seems to me they put a lot of stress on the boat (and if you leave them loose enough so that they don't stress the boat, they just flop around in the wind and make noise. . . ). <snip> That way even if something on the Thule system were to fail, there is still a strong attachment to the factory system. I can't imagine this failing. Any comments? How many people really use bow and stern lines? Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 05:31 AM 7/18/00 -0400, Sailboat Restorations, Inc. wrote: SNIP How many people >really use bow and stern lines? >Mark > I have the Yakima Double Cross system that grabs the factory rack rather securely. Saddles and rollers, too. That said, unless I'm going the two blocks from my house to my community beach, I always use bow and stern lines. Bill Leonhardt *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 7/18/00 1:39:15 PM !!!First Boot!!!, cramer_at_coe.uga.edu writes: << You want them just tight enough not to flap. >> For people using straps, twist the strap several times, this will create a spiral with much less strap flap. I think this point has been mentioned, be careful not to overtighten bow and stern lines. I use bow and stern lines for the canoes, but, not for the kayaks. I check my rack to vehicle connection very, very often. Sounds like the original poster's problem began as a rack to vehicle malfunction. Bruce McC WEO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 10:48 AM 07/18/2000 -0400, Outfit3029_at_aol.com wrote: > For people using straps, twist the strap several times, this will create a >spiral with much less strap flap. > Bruce McC Twisting the straps also ends the horrible buzzing that flat, parallel straps make. jerry. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark wrote: > How many people really use bow and stern lines? Count me as another one who always uses bow and stern lines. Almost all of my driving trips these days are very short, but the bow and stern lines are there every time - it may add an extra 3-5 minutes to the job, but could help to prevent an accident......weigh the risks and benefits for yourself. Still working on a _good_ way to carry the two kayaks on my skiff (I've got to run out of bad ways soon!) Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Seng, Dave" wrote: > > Mark wrote: > > > How many people really use bow and stern lines? > > Count me as another one who always uses bow and stern lines. yup, me too. Though others have insisted it is a redundancy with my rack. -- : : Gabriel L Romeu : http://studiofurniture.com furniture from the workshop : http://members.xoom.com/gabrielR life as a tourist, daily journal : http://users.aol.com/romeugp paintings, photographs, etchings, objects *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark wrote: > How many people really use bow and stern lines? Count me as another one who always uses bow and stern lines. Almost all of my driving trips these days are very short, but the bow and stern lines are there every time - it may add an extra 3-5 minutes to the job, but could help to prevent an accident......weigh the risks and benefits for yourself. Still working on a _good_ way to carry the two kayaks on my skiff (I've got to run out of bad ways soon!) Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I DON'T use tiedowns. I have sufficient distance between bars on my van to eliminate torque on my van. I do use an extra strap on the front bar in case of strap failure. I do check my racks careful before every trip and have many 1000s of miles without incident. I would use a tiedown if it were convenient, but the boat doesn't extend past the front bumper. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 02:37 PM 7/18/00 -0400, Bill Hansen wrote: ><How many people >> really use bow and stern lines?> > >Bow lines on longer trips. Never used stern lines. For short trips locally >(about 2 miles at about 30 mph) I usually omit the bow lines and just go >with 5/8" prussik cord tiedowns on the foredeck and afterdeck. Hi Bill, Whatsa prussik?? Bill *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
You know, this is mighty strange. Everbody says they use bow and stern lines, yet I see kayaks every day on top of autos and I almost never see bow or stern lines. Hm. I figure -- like another activity that is much maligned but actually highly favored in reality -- 90 percent of people do "it" and 10 percent lie. <g> Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
<< One can drive thousands of miles without stern and bow tiedowns and never have a problem. Then one day... Same as driving withoug a seatbelt. You may never need it, but why take the risk? >> Sorry, but I just don't buy this kind of logic. If you indeed believed this then wouldn't you also always wear a helmet while paddling? How about a helmet while driving your car. Hey, what about a flack vest! Put me down for one who uses bow and stern lines for long freeway commutes, but not for 99% of my other kayak transports. Scott (with over thirty years of kayak and canoe transport without incident) So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Legal liability is one reason why you should always have bow and stern tie-downs (as well as a red cloth attached to the sternmost point of whatever you are carrying). In an accident, if your kayak flies off and hurts some person or some property, you have a weaker case if the kayak was not tied down. I'm not a lawyer, but this is what I've heard. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have seen a Nordkapp going down the freeway floating about 6 inches above the rack with bungee cords with metal hooks the only thing holding it from flying higher. When I told the driver about it later he said that's how he always does it and he has never had a problem. Should I argue with his success? For several years I tied whitewater kayaks to my roof with rubber straps and 3/16" nylon solid braid end lines. Nearly twenty years ago I strapped the very first Mariner kayak we ever made (before it was even totally completed) on top of the Early Winters van to be used as a prop in a photo shoot for their catalog. I used the same set-up I had always used without incident for whitewater kayaks. I also locked it to the rear rack with a bike cable for security against theft. As the story was related to me the front line was vibrating against a slight bend in the sheet metal on the front hood. The line frayed enough that when doing 60 mph into 50 mph headwinds in Northern CA the bowline snapped. The kayak bounced up and down a few times until the front bungee let go. As it lifted off the bike cable yanked the rear rack off the roof and the kayak and rear rack flipped over and crashed into the U-Haul trailer carrying the photo samples and then fell to the pavement and was being dragged by the stern line. Before the driver could get stopped the stern line broke and the kayak tumbled down the highway and the Semi following them was just barely able to miss running over it. The kayak suffered a good crack across one seam but is still functional today but I learned a valuable lesson. Set up your carrying system so that no single failure of any component will cause you a problem! See the beginning of the paddling manual on our website http://www.marinerkayaks.com for our recommendations regarding transporting a kayak. Lately I have watched on two separate occasions as paddlers tying down their kayaks with the fixed webbing straps on Yakima TLC cradles had the strap break at the buckle as they cinched it down. I think the problem is the straps got sun degraded from always being on the rack day in and day out. The straps looked okay (aside from the break). We had always though this was kind of a stupid system (leaving the straps on to buzz in the wind and sun degrade) and sold our customers separate straps that could fasten around the bar rather than fasten to the little pins of the TLC cradles. At least Yakima's policy of selling the components separately meant our customers weren't also having to pay for the useless original straps. I shudder to think what would have happened had these straps not quite failed when being cinched down and the driver rear ended another vehicle without bow and stern lines. When viewed from the side the bow and stern lines should form a trapezoid or rectangle rather than a parallelogram. The problem with a parallelogram (or a single line that is not vertical) is that if the kayak (or roof rack-as in the most recent discussion) shifts forward or back the line(s) can go slack. You want one line to tighten up if the kayak (or rack and kayak) moves in any direction. Lots more info on this in the Paddling Manual. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I always use bow and stern lines as well. It is far quicker to tie up my bow and stern lines than the roof rack straps. Those things take forever to tighten up. The few seconds it takes to use the bow and stern lines is just not an issue. The odds of the rack/straps failing at the same time as the bow and stern lines is pretty small. The extra safety provided by the lines is certainly worth it compared with the cost of a new boat. Its incomparable if it prevents someones injury or death. I I keep my bow and stern lines attached to the kayaks. All I have to do is untie one end of the lines and attached to the vehicle. Very quick and easy. 60 seconds for each line. I spend that much time just getting the straps out of the truck much less secured to the vehicle.... Later.... Dan *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I always use bow and stern lines. It not the cost of replacing the kayak that bothers me. It's the potentail loss of life and property for those following behind! We as drivers will be held fully responsible (could include involuntary manslaughter) for what we carry on our vehicles. Al ----- Original Message ----- From: <dmccarty_at_us.ibm.com> To: <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2000 10:20 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Bow and Stern tie downs > I always use bow and stern lines as well. It is far quicker to tie up my > bow and stern lines than the roof rack straps. Those things take forever > to tighten up. The few seconds it takes to use the bow and stern lines is > just not an issue. The odds of the rack/straps failing at the same time as > the bow and stern lines is pretty small. The extra safety provided by the > lines is certainly worth it compared with the cost of a new boat. Its > incomparable if it prevents someones injury or death. > > I I keep my bow and stern lines attached to the kayaks. All I have to do > is untie one end of the lines and attached to the vehicle. Very quick and > easy. 60 seconds for each line. I spend that much time just getting the > straps out of the truck much less secured to the vehicle.... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:15 PDT