David said: <<<For those that are interested the latest edition (Issue 43) of the NSW sea kayaker magazine is now online at http://www.nswseakayaker.asn.au/mag/contents.htm David Whyte Australia>>> For those hardcore paddlers interested, there is an article listed on the latest edition, by me. It wouldn't interest most folks on this list, as it pertains to kayak abuse and outside seams. There was a big debate down-under over the issue, and it got rather controversial to the point where one of the "combatants" was unable to have a rebuttal printed and the matter closed (if I remember correctly). A number of kayaks have been known to break up in the heavy Aussie surf, so it is a valid concern there. I hate controversy, so was a bit shy to join the debate at the tail end (yeah right, Doug!). I tried to contribute from direct experience, including some of the incidents of boat breakage over the years. This kept me neutral, and restricted me to divulging and witnessing my own discoveries. It reads a bit extreme and macho, as it distills over twenty years of the "worst". I credit Paddlewise on it, and there is a bit about the Storm Islands. What might be of interest however, are the accompanying pictures. You can go directly to: <http://www.nswseakayaker.asn.au/mag/43/seams.html> Picture #1 is in the fall of 1998, just prior to the best-ever storm season we've ever had on Vancouver Island. There are no outside seams yet. I am wearing a breathing tube (was just finishing a trip into an inlet where I played under a big waterfall after torrential rains). Picture #2 is a bit out of sequence in the article, but is of our departure at the beginning of April, 1999 from Port Hardy, getting ready to leave for Bella Bella on the ferry. It is a clear day, with a huge snow pack in the mountains and blowing 45 knots out in the Strait. The kayak on the right is Dave's ruddered Necky Arluk (22' wide) with outside seams. The middle one is my low volume Nordkapp with deep draft rudder and rebuilt in and outside seams/paint/keel strip for the trip. The left one is Andrew's CD Pieces (24" I believe) with his huge deck load, paddlefloat, and sail mast attachment, all up on his homemade cart. Picture #3 is my Nordkapp just prior to a departure. It holds much more than your average Nordkapp. You can see the custom oval hatch just behind the cockpit. You can also see the day hatch on the fore deck, that has a hole to the "knee tube" below. The small hatch cover for that is off at the side. The picture does not show up the full extent of gear due to shadows and poor resolution. Picture #4 is a photo shoot for SK Mag. I was blown behind the breakwater, but had been out in much bigger seas performing this Dereck Hutchings manouver minutes earlier. The photo was taken by PW'er Kirby Stevens. I threw the picture to annoy the Aussies, as they hate pumps. Oi, oi, oi! Of course, they don't get told I have a foot pump too. Eh. eh, eh! PS David, would you forward this post to your NSW Sea Kayaker club listserver, as it may help explain the pictures - but only if you want to. BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 06:49 PM 10/4/00 -0700, Doug Lloyd wrote: > >What might be of interest however, are the accompanying pictures. You >can go directly to: > ><http://www.nswseakayaker.asn.au/mag/43/seams.html> > I read that article -- good one, and now we know what BC's most modified Nordkapp looks like. I guess no one needs to send a Nordkapp to Rev. Bob's Boat Test Facility, then. It could be we need to be thinking about a new boat material for you two -- cast iron, perhaps? -- Wes *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug - how much does your Nordkapp weigh now vs when it was new? KeS *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Kevin Stevens wrote: > Doug - how much does your Nordkapp weigh now vs when it was new? Kes' It was 56 when new, and is 90 now. Bear in mind that I have added a couple of layers to the hull that were not part of my "modifications". I simply felt the original kayak was far too flimsy in the hull (I don't know where that leaves non-factory ordered light-layup N. American kayaks in my mind, then). Also, after puncturing the hull a number of times, I got fed up and felt the epoxy saturated cloth would be more impact resistant. I wish the whole boat was epoxy resin impregnated glass (sorry Wes, iron rusts). The actual modifications conceptualized and brought to fruition by myself over the years and successive rebuilds, must add 20. Another 5 of the total 90 must be the weight of the epoxy cloth to hold the modifications in place. In other words, if I were to use my existing kayak as a mold, I could then lay the whole thing up as a consistent whole, bringing down the weight at least by that 5, if not 10. A side note: I really do not expect folks on this list to understand nor endorse this type of weight for a sea kayak. I am unusually hard on my kayak - a tsunami ranger in a loaded, narrow touring kayak. Incidents of breaking footrests and submerging into the cockpit happened in real-time. I know I am an oddity at best, and fit no pre-defined categories and so suffer the consequences of schizophrenia. I'm sure folks on this list give a wink or two when they read some of my posts, but I really do punish my boat, body _and_ brain at times. At the end of the season, I often have more deep gouges in the hull, running perpendicular to the keel line, than most people have running the usual length of the hull after ten years. I'm not proud of this fact, it's just a statement. Well, when I'm a mile offshore this upcoming winter season, playing in a gale force weather tide out in Juan De Fuca Strait, rest assured that the weight of my kayak is my least concern. The integrity and functionality and back-up provisions of my carefully thought out, highly modified kayak are what matter to me most. This is no laughing matter to me. I take the issue rather seriously, but folks can poke fun if they want (I'm not saying you are). I'm not an eccentric individual. I am very "nut's and bolts" oriented, highly respected at both of my two occupations and at my church, where I am often given challenges and problems that no one else wants to tackle, or where the boss wants something done thoroughly with due determination and completness. I'm not sure what kind of respect I have on this list, but rest assured, everything I do in life stems forth from previous experience and a desire to make a "better mouse trap", whatever the venue. PS I'll be sending some further pics to Gabriel, who will put them up on his web site some time this fall. BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd > > KeS > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net > > [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of Wes Boyd > > Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 08:57 > > To: Doug Lloyd; PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net; Whyte, David > > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Magazine out-Article by Doug L > > > > > > At 06:49 PM 10/4/00 -0700, Doug Lloyd wrote: > > > > > > > >What might be of interest however, are the accompanying pictures. You > > >can go directly to: > > > > > ><http://www.nswseakayaker.asn.au/mag/43/seams.html> > > > > > > > I read that article -- good one, and now we know what BC's most modified > > Nordkapp looks like. I guess no one needs to send a Nordkapp to Rev. Bob's > > Boat Test Facility, then. It could be we need to be thinking about a new > > boat material for you two -- cast iron, perhaps? > > > > -- Wes *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Kevin Stevens wrote: > > > Doug - how much does your Nordkapp weigh now vs when it was new? > > Kes' > > It was 56 when new, and is 90 now. Bear in mind that I have added a couple of > layers to the hull that were not part of my "modifications". I simply felt the > original kayak was far too flimsy in the hull (I don't know where that leaves > non-factory ordered light-layup N. American kayaks in my mind, then). > Also, after puncturing the hull a number of times, I got fed up and felt the > epoxy saturated cloth would be more impact resistant. I wish the whole boat was > epoxy resin impregnated glass (sorry Wes, iron rusts). Thanks for the quick response, Doug... > The actual modifications conceptualized and brought to fruition by > myself over the years and successive rebuilds, must add 20. Another 5 of the total > 90 must be the weight of the epoxy cloth to hold the modifications in place. In > other words, if I were to use my existing kayak as a mold, I could then lay the > whole thing up as a > consistent whole, bringing down the weight at least by that 5, if not 10. I'm surprised (and impressed) that the various repairs, patches, and re-seams (apart from the end-pours and other modifications) haven't added more weight than that. How does your boat (pre-keelson, if you can remember) feel compared to a new boat? I'm not thinking of the weight as much as the tenderness and heel, etc. Has the boat ever started to feel "clunky", or would you even notice with as much time as you have in it? (I once got back on an old road-race motorcycle of mine after a season on a newer one, and immediately thought I'd kill myself before I could get off the course.) > A side note: > I really do not expect folks on this list to understand nor endorse > this type of weight for a sea kayak. I am unusually hard on my kayak - a tsunami > ranger in a loaded, narrow touring kayak. Incidents of breaking footrests and > submerging into the cockpit happened in real-time. I know I am an oddity at best, > and fit no pre-defined categories and so suffer the consequences of > schizophrenia. I'm sure folks on this list give a wink or two when they read some > of my posts, but I really do punish my boat, body _and_ brain at times. At the end > of the season, I often have more deep gouges in the hull, running perpendicular to the > keel line, than most people have running the usual length of the hull after ten > years. I'm not proud of this fact, it's just a statement. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Kevin Stevens said: > > I'm surprised (and impressed) that the various repairs, patches, and re-seams > (apart from the end-pours and other modifications) haven't added more weight > than that. The re-seam job actually added a fair bit of weight. You only have to flounder once at sea, to never want that to happen again. With most of the epoxy glass work I did, I put down each layer a day or two apart, sanding and cleaning with solvent each time. This helps remove some of the excess epoxy and keeps the overall layers as thin as possible, yet strong and flexible where it needs to be. I also try not to pre-wet the cloth tape too much, but rather let it soak in after brushing the area to be stregthened/fitted first. Where I do do two layers at once, I don't wet-out the second layer, but rather let the first one absorb its excess resin into the second layer, then "dimmple" the second layer into the first. When I repaint the kayak, I sand between coats, just until I'm almost through, before spraying the next coat. Again, this keeps it as light as possible. There are a lot more mod's to the boat than you may realize, including a hatch and opening molded into the deck for an access port to the rudder pedals and foot pump; imbedded brass in the last 12 inches of the stern keel; all the glass to hold down the interior ash keel; and 20 deck fittings that were molded and glassed in with epoxy. This added to the other modifications mentioned before, add a fair amount of weight. Then there are the 4 lbs of Stainless Steel nuts, washers and bolts, etc. :-) You might want to note that I rarely do a shoulder carry with the heavy kayak. It can be hard on the back, but more to the point, the wraparound bulkhead that forms behind my lumbar region while seated, means that I can not "tuck" my shoulder under the cockpit rim on the inside very well during a carry, without it slipping off. So the point is mute. What I have done is add a carrying handle just abaft of the cockpit rim. My other hand grabs the front deck of the kayak by opening the deck hatch to the knee tube first. This allows me to grab under the rim and then to lift the kayak easily, and crab-walk it where I need to go. Of course, with a replaceable plastic bottom keel strip and brass, I can just drag it where I want it to go. The perfect kayak for a knuckle-dragging ape man :-) > How does your boat (pre-keelson, if you can remember) feel compared > to a new boat? I'm not thinking of the weight as much as the tenderness and > heel, etc. IT TRACKS MUCH BETTER, SO THAT THE RUDDER DOESN'T NEED TO BE EMPLOYED AS MUCH. WAVE PEELOUTS REQUIRE A BIT MORE PROACTIVE THINKING, AND A LOT MORE LEAN -opps, hit caps by error - sorry. > Has the boat ever started to feel "clunky", or would you even notice > with as much time as you have in it? (I once got back on an old road-race > motorcycle of mine after a season on a newer one, and immediately thought I'd > kill myself before I could get off the course.) Yes, on flat water it is slower (compared to a new Nordkapp I took out a while back). Paddling in moving water is a touch more tedious without the liveliness of a lighter, less stiff kayak. However, my main design criteria is abrasion resistance, and overall stiffness and strength in big water and hitting objects at see and on reefs, and the ability to punch through with sufficient momentum during storm paddling while at sea. I know enough respected, big name paddlers who share a similar view about the need for weight in open water conditions. I'm sure there are those who disagree with heavy weights being necessary for playing in big water. Without meaning to sound rude, I could care less what anyone thinks, regardless of viewpoint. And without meaning to sound elitist, I've never had a fellow paddler follow me out into big water where she's started to kick up real good. They usually want to head for protection or shore. They were good paddlers too. I just don't think they had ultimate trust in their equipment and boat. BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd (who hopes the tone of this post isn't misconstruded) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In spite of all the rain we've had in the upper Midwest this year, the Great Lakes are still low and are heading lower, according to an article in the Detroit News today: http://www.detnews.com/2000/metro/0010/05/a01-130238.htm -- Wes *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Wrote; > It was 56 when new, and is 90 now. Bear in mind that I have added a couple > of > layers to the hull that were not part of my "modifications". I simply felt > the > original kayak was far too flimsy in the hull (I don't know where that > leaves > non-factory ordered light-layup N. American kayaks in my mind, then). > Also, after > puncturing the hull a number of times, I got fed up and felt the epoxy > saturated > cloth would be more impact resistant. I wish the whole boat was epoxy > resin > impregnated glass (sorry Wes, iron rusts). > > The actual modifications conceptualized and brought to fruition by myself > over the > years and successive rebuilds, must add 20. Another 5 of the total 90 must > be the > weight of the epoxy cloth to hold the modifications in place. In other > words, if I > were to use my existing kayak as a mold, I could then lay the whole thing > up as a > consistent whole, bringing down the weight at least by that 5, if not 10. > > Doug, just out of curiosity, why do you keep modifying store bought boats, rather than starting from scratch and build one to your specific design and specification? Rick (....Virginia) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> > PS > I'll be sending some further pics to Gabriel, who will put them up on his web site > some time this fall. > > BC'in Ya > Doug Lloyd I am looking forward to this. I have just finished the first version of the cd rom for the outfitting class that I am doing in Delmarva tomorrow (leaving in 2 hours). I hope to collect more outfitting ideas from this paddling retreat, brought my camera and film. For all of you that contributed to the web site, so far I have a good article on lofting, steam bending wood (for traditional boatbuilding), epoxy work, d ring installation, making a towrope, and some other stuff that will not be on the website. When I get Doug's photographs, John F's backband pictures, Delmarva boats, and some other things I will add to the cd and get your addresses to send you one. see you'all, gabriel > -- : : Gabriel L Romeu : http://studiofurniture.com furniture from the workshop : http://members.xoom.com/gabrielR life as a tourist, daily journal : http://studiofurniture.com/paint paintings, photographs, etchings, objects *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug wrote: >>>I know enough respected, big name paddlers who share a similar view about the need for weight in open water conditions. <<< Who, besides Derek Hutchinson? While I agree that weight can help in extreme conditions it doesn't have to be the weight of the kayak. I think this is often used as a justification for British heavies. Below is some of what I wrote to Derek concerning the manuscript I had reviewed for "Derek Hutchinson's Guide to Sea Kayaking" back in (I believe) 1983 or 1984. I still believe much of the design information in that book was in reality mostly advertising for Derek's kayaks in America. <SNIP> My main interests are in the areas of safety and kayak design. That will be obvious from what follows. We obviously have some different ideas when it comes to designs. As a designer yourself you are in an awkward position when writing about designs since many readers will consider what you say to be no more than advertising copy for your designs. I have never met a kayak designer yet that didn't feel his designs were the best. One could hardly expect that your writing on design wouldn't reflect your experience as a designer. May I suggest that you confront this issue directly by stating it and then proceed to describe what you think a kayak should be able to do and how it should perform in the hands of an experienced kayaker. Mention as, Frank Goodman does in his lectures on design, the problems the designer faces and some of the compromises that must be made (or worked around). Finally get down to the ways yourself and other designers attempt to solve the problems. This is the dangerous area as its easy to present your own solutions as the only solutions. This book could easily become the bible of the sport, it would be too bad if all future designers felt hesitant about trying some new solution to a design problem because you had stated emphatically that such and such was a must on a seaworthy kayak. If you get down to basics and present the problems that need solutions and then present some of the solutions you have discovered or have heard about in a way that mentions the possible advantages and disadvantages of each I think you can avoid dogmatism which may later be an embarrassment to you <SNIP> p23) The difference in handling of kayaks weighing 10 to 20 pounds more is very small although 20 pounds of ballast concentrated at one end or the other can be quite significant. It is easy to add ballast to a kayak but much more difficult to make the heavier kayak easy for a small person to carry. The real trade off with weight is strength and rigidity, but even here materials and construction methods can make a big difference. A 60 pound vacuumed bagged kayak made of vinylester and woven roving is easily the match for a 75 pound kayak of polyester resin and mostly fiberglass mat and coremat. It is when you start pushing the limits of lightness (30 to 40 pounds) that even the strongest materials won't help much due to the flexibility of the thin laminate and the stress risers that form on flexing beyond certain limits. Here in the Northwest the public demands and gets a kayak that is a little too lightweight to take hard pounding on rocks or enders in surf. Few people here need all the extra strength that 10 pounds would bring. Those that do usually order a kayak of their choice custom built to heavy duty specifications. Since only a few will buy the heavy duty kayak you can hardly expect that a manufacturer would not try to satisfy the demand but insist that if the customer wants one of his kayaks he must buy a heavyduty one. He would soon be bankrupt. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt writes: "Here in the Northwest the public demands and gets a kayak that is a little too lightweight to take hard pounding on rocks or enders in surf." That immediately prompts me to think that if that is the case, the knowledgeable manufacturer ought to supply a heavier seaworthy boat as standard, and supply a lighter boat on demand after explaining its lack of strength and attendant risks. On referring to the bible, Derek Hutchinson's "The Complete Book of Sea Kayaking" 4th Ed, Chapter One, it opens with general comments about design, and there is plenty of discussion of the design considerations useful to a buyer. I can't find any mention of weight. There is a little about North American designs, pages 19, 20 and 21, with recommendations for reinforcing weak decks. Where's the problem with the bible? There are a few weak, but popular boats here as well. Some you can depress the deck in places with one finger. That worries me, but the sales staff tell you that it's strong enough. Have a look at the boat cracked in half 5 kms off shore at: http://www.nswseakayaker.asn.au/forsale.htm Regards, Peter Treby 37°42'S 145°08'E *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter wrote: >Where's the problem with the bible? Here is an excerpt from my review of his book published in QAYAK "Before reading this book cut out pages 1 through 3, and 10 through 17. Supposedly about boat design, they are a synopsis of man's quest for easy answers to complex questions and all the more remarkable originating in a nation famous for its leadership in the science of hydrodynamics. Even if the author couldn't find an authority to proof-read his manuscript he might have at least read a few books on the topic. Apparently he didn't for there is not one resource on hydrodynamics or naval architecture listed in the bibliography. The Froudes, father and son, must be rolling in their graves." Derek's design information simply won't cut it. Derek's explanation of what a skeg does would make a cat laugh. The rest of the book has a lot of really worthwhile information. Cheers, John Winters Web site address http://home.ican.net/~735769 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter Treby wrote: > > Matt writes: > > "Here in the Northwest the public demands and gets a kayak that is a little > > too lightweight to take hard pounding on rocks or enders in surf." > There are a few weak, but popular boats here as well. Some you can depress > the deck in places with one finger. That worries me, but the sales staff > tell you that it's strong enough. Have a look at the boat cracked in half 5 > kms off shore at: http://www.nswseakayaker.asn.au/forsale.htm Great picture, Peter! This issue has come up before -- and I own one of those "lightweight" yaks that can not handle enders in surf. That's OK with me -- I don't expect to use it in surf, anyway, and if I have to do so, I'll just sidesurf my way in ... or try to, anyway. However, it boggles me, Peter, what could have caused that boat to crack in half if it was not involved in surf -- any idea what the circumstances were? 'Round here, we don't have reefs which would produce surf, 5 kms from shore. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Have a look at the boat cracked in half 5 kms off shore at: http://www.nswseakayaker.asn.au/forsale.htm" "...what could have caused that boat to crack in half if it was not involved in surf -- any idea what the circumstances were? 'Round here, we don't have reefs which would produce surf, 5 kms from shore." Dave: I'll make some enquiries about the picture. I have my suspicions as to what boat it is, and the likely reason for failure, but I'd better get confirmation. I'll let you, and Paddlewise, know if I can find out. Regards, Peter Treby 37°42'S 145°08'E *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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