I thought that Vincent Swendsen's comments on sea kayaking in the surf zone to be right on the money. As I paddle more & more, work in a kayak store and see more people paddle & talk about paddling I am amazed sometimes by peoples' perceptions about abilities. I myself am competitive by nature and like to judge myself and always try to reach higher levels of ability. I have seem "experienced" paddlers who clearly not only can't even get in & out of their boats safely to beginners who embaress me with their strenghts and ease of learning. It took me a very long time to learn a virtually bombproof roll but so far no luck on the hands roll. Sometimes, it's a mental thing about ability I guess. Back to the surf. I have come to believe that as far as abilities go kayaking in surf is the dividing line on abilities. I tend to feel ( and in no way do I want it to be a snobbery issue) that certainly no one is above intermeadiate if they haven't mastered the surf zone. To master it one must have a very good roll(one that you trust implicitly), boat control and almost more importantly, an intuitive awareness of what's happening around you. Be it other boats, swimmers, waves, what have you, you have to be able to process your surroundings and make next to instant choices on courses of action. From rolling to avoid getting speared from someone's bow to judging whether it is safe to go out at all. Additionally the surf teaches rough and storm paddling and as Vincent harped on will show you in a heartbeat about gear staying with the boat, watertightness and I venture to say the true open ocean seaworthniness of your kayak. And it is almost an automatic: it will always be harder to get in thru the surf upright than it was to get out. Slim hardchined speed demons fare far differently that softer, volumous boats. Life is full of little tradeoffs. where do you intend to go? And in what conditions? Pete Gallagher *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
A technique question about surf skills: Anyone have any good ideas on rolling under breakers too big to punch through? Particularly, I am wondering about: 1. timing the roll under 2. timing the roll up 3. whether to stay in a roll set-up position while under water, or 4. whether to extend arms and paddle while under water to get a greater braking effect? 5. what size surf do you punch/spear through, what size do you roll under, and at what point do you just keep out altogether? Any real life practical tips appreciated. Good paddling, Peter Treby 37°42'S 145°08'E *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter Treby <ptreby_at_ozemail.com.au> wrote: >>>>>A technique question about surf skills: Anyone have any good ideas on rolling under breakers too big to punch through? Particularly, I am wondering about: 1. timing the roll under<<<<< At the last second and in position to roll making sure your kayak is pointed straight out. >>>>>2. timing the roll up<<<<< Just a few seconds, you'll know when the turbulence has past. >>>>>3. whether to stay in a roll set-up position while under water, or 4. whether to extend arms and paddle while under water to get a greater braking effect?<<<<<< Plenty of breaking with just your body. Keep your paddle locked right next to the kayak in the roll position so the turbulence doesn't get it and take it from you. >>>>>5. what size surf do you punch/spear through, what size do you roll under, and at what point do you just keep out altogether?<<<<<<< Punch through what you are sure you can make it through. Roll if it is marginal or a little bigger (or if you've timed things all wrong and a dumper is about to slam you right in the chest) >>>>Any real life practical tips appreciated.<<<<<< The following is from the "Paddling" manual on our website. There is lots more than this about surf there for those of you who would like some tips for the surf zone. This section should also answer the when the roll technique is not enough question. "Going Out Though Surf Time your departure so that you're not heading out just as one of the big sets is coming in. Watch the waves for twenty minutes or more and check the time between the sets of large (or small) waves through several cycles. Point directly into each breaker that you have to punch through, accelerating to top speed to make sure the wave doesn't start surfing you backwards. Look ahead and watch how the next waves are building, often you can angle away from areas about to break and slip over low passes. If a large wave breaks before reaching you, paddle furiously until the last possible moment before the soup hits you, then lean forward onto the deck holding the paddle parallel to the boat in order to present as little area as possible for the wave to push you back. As soon as possible after the wave has hit you start paddling hard again so you aren't inadvertently surfed backwards by the boiling crest. Try to avoid being just where the wave first breaks as this is the area of most violence. It take a lot of experience to know if you should charge ahead and jump the crest or hang back and hope it breaks before it's on top of you. Novices usually error by waiting when they should have charged. Deliberately capsizing just before being slugged by a break you probably can't punch through anyhow is one way to avoid losing all the progress you've made so far. Your body hanging below the kayak will hopefully anchor you in place while the break rolls over your upturned hull. Once it has passed you calmly Eskimo roll and continue on your way to face whatever the next wave has in store. Matt says, "I practiced this in smaller waves (under six feet) I could have paddled through. Once when caught in the dump zone by a nightmare sized wave about to break right on top of me I decided it was definitely the time to try this capsize and roll technique for real. The wave curled and broke right over me, there was no kayak shattering smash like I expected, the wave just picked me gently up and turned me over lengthwise. I broke the surface and opened my eyes to find myself right side up and facing the beach. Unfortunately I was also going nose first over the falls from on top of this big wave." Obviously, this technique has its limits." I got sucked quite a ways out of the cockpit while tumbling but managed to hang onto the kayak with my feet and slip back in and roll up once things calmed down. I have friends who are lots crazier than me and would paddle in through some really big surf. They could get outside the big break by going out a jetty protected river mouth. One discovered his limits when the breaker he was riding broke and just wouldn't let go of him until he was about to pass out from lack of air. He's lucky to be alive and was quite shaken by the experience. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Treby <ptreby_at_ozemail.com.au> > A technique question about surf skills: > Anyone have any good ideas on rolling under breakers too big to punch > through? Particularly, I am wondering about: > 1. timing the roll under > 2. timing the roll up > 3. whether to stay in a roll set-up position while under water, or > 4. whether to extend arms and paddle while under water to get a greater > braking effect? > 5. what size surf do you punch/spear through, what size do you roll under, > and at what point do you just keep out altogether? > Any real life practical tips appreciated. Dear Peter, I use rolling 'neath breakers whenever paddling in surf. I duck under them at the last second, and I use the Greenland "storm-roll" (Not to be confused with the storm-roll depicted in Hutchinson's book on Eskimo Rolling.) This roll is set-up like a standard Greenland kayak roll, but the recovery is such that you surface still leaning well forward, in a low defensive position (as opposed to leaning on the aft deck quite vulnerable to subsequent breakers.) The breakers' passing is easily felt, at which time you can roll up. I hold the set-up position through-out the submersion; the breaking-effect you describe would seem to increase the chance of the wave taking you along for a ride in lieu of passing over you. I roll under breakers around 4'-5' tall, depending on how hard I care to get hit in the face. Practice of course in lighter surf-waves, just to get a feel of it all. The dynamics of a breaking wave seem to be such that the fast-moving top is the more powerful element, whereas the slope below (and shore-ward) is not in fast-motion. While situations, skills, and experience may vary, I would rather stick my head and torso into the more static element than in front of the wave's fist. The bottom of a kayak presents very little surface area to the crashing wave, and is especially strong as well. I learned the value of ducking under breakers the hard way. I got knocked just shy of silly as a 6'+ breaker slammed into my torso and pushed me back such that my head hit the back-deck of my kayakand flipped me over. The resistance my torso caused resulted in my kayak being taken along for a free ride. I surfed a good ways upside down with a cavitated spray-skirt (and near-cavitated lungs and cranium). Harvey Golden www.pacifier.com/~qayaq *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
How do you judge whether there's sufficient depth to accommodate your torso? Tom Joyce *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
<< How do you judge whether there's sufficient depth to accommodate your torso? >> Waves will generally break in water in which the depth is one and one half times the height of the wave. That is to say a four foot wave will generally break in six feet of water. So determining that there is enough depth to accommodate your torso is not all that difficult. Determining that there are not any big rocks hiding under the surface is another matter. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 12/5/00 1:01:13 AM, tfj_at_interaccess.com writes: << How do you judge whether there's sufficient depth to accommodate your torso? >> I'd be more concerned with the head! To that end I tuck in really tightly when I roll in the surf zone. It's funny how little water is actually required to roll a kayak. Jed *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Tom has a very good point here. I think it is critical for kayakers attempting this to know the characteristics of the launch area. I have been flipped before in which my head hit the bottom hard enough to require medical attention. No rocks, just a fast impact on a sandy bottom in which my neck was supporting all the weight of myself and kayak. There are many places where this technique can be performed with minimal risk but knowing the characteristics of the waves and bottom may prevent a visit to your family doctor. Getting your head bounced off the bottom is a very overrated experience. Happy Paddling, Vincent *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 12/6/00 10:58:41 AM Pacific Standard Time, owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net writes: > I have been > flipped before in which my head hit the bottom hard enough to require > medical attention. No rocks, just a fast impact on a sandy bottom in which > This is the reason I always wear a helmet in the surf zone. Getting your head sandwiched between the deck and the sand hurts. Punching though a wave face with the top of your head acting as a battering ram is also painful. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Amen to Swenson & Gallagher re: surf zone. The plastic needle gets outside no problem-still talking small stuff-but even minor sandy beach shorebreak can make a mockery of a great paddle trip. Strayed from the quest and did a first round of whitewater this summer. Still couldn't quite get the roll, although went over and came back up on same side. Something about 48 years of learning to get the head out first? Of course #3 son, 14, got it immediately, and proceeded to do his first combat roll at Hell's Hole on the Ocoee. (Dad went swimming. Something about those touring-developed instincts not working while "ferrying".) Also took along what I call the "Stupid Boat", a SOT Pegasus, which upon return turned out to be much fun in late summer surf here in NE Fla. Waves weren't quite big enough for the board, so it was a great option. Even so, the power of the small stuff magnifies against the plastic volume. Amazing feeling to jam the paddle on the outside after the initial cut inside. Hey look! I'm surfing! Side surfing is cool stuff too, especially when discovered by accident! Lot of skills overlap, but some very different. Any of y'all have trouble with surf / whitewater / touring transitions? Scott Stephens Jacksonville Beach Florida *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sat, 2 Dec 2000, Scott Stephens wrote: > Strayed from the quest and did a first round of whitewater this summer. Good for you! Stop over in GA next time and we'll show you some nice places. If it ever rains. > Still couldn't quite get the roll, although went over and came back up on > same side. Something about 48 years of learning to get the head out first? Silly mammalian predispositions about breathing RIGHT NOW do get in the way of good technique. > Lot of skills overlap, but some very different. Any of y'all have trouble > with surf / whitewater / touring transitions? It's always fun* to bring WW boaters to the beach and watch them broach the first time. The WW mantra is "Lean downstream," but about 50% of paddlers think that downstream is toward the beach. Just once, though. Steve Cramer *--OB disclaimer: in WW, it is acceptable, nearly mandatory, to laugh at trashings, after the rescue is over and there are no injuries, of course. The trashee usually joins in. It is considered tacky to invite people on a trip in the expectation that they will provide such entertainment, though. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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