In a message dated 4/27/2001 1:30:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, volinjo_at_juno.com writes: > It was fun, though. It would be really nice if different people decided > to put together these get-togethers in different places, and we could all > travel to whatever we could reach. Then more of us could get to really > know each other. This was a concept that was pressed by ANORAK years ago --- no-fault kayaking. A member announced that he/she and N others would be going to Strawberry Banks at Hampton Roads on the weekend of ___, would be staying at ___ where a rate of $__ had been negotiated, and URL___ would give driving directions and area info. Launch would be at whenever. The message was essentially, be there if you want. There's no "leader", as such, but anyone who can handle ___ conditions and distance is welcome. It worked for a long time. Don't know if the idea is still active or not. But it's an easy one to emulate. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: <JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com> > > > It was fun, though. It would be really nice if different people decided > > to put together these get-togethers in different places, and we could all > > travel to whatever we could reach. Then more of us could get to really > > know each other. > > This was a concept that was pressed by ANORAK years ago --- no-fault > kayaking. A member announced that he/she and N others would be going to > Strawberry Banks at Hampton Roads on the weekend of ___, would be staying at > ___ where a rate of $__ had been negotiated, and URL___ would give driving > directions and area info. Launch would be at whenever. The message was > essentially, be there if you want. There's no "leader", as such, but anyone > who can handle ___ conditions and distance is welcome. I remember those paddling trips and frankly was put off by the terms in which they sometimes were presented. My wife and I had a few years of paddling under our belts but several of those trips had a real elite slant to the invite. Something like "Please understand that some of us are leaders and instructors and may want to paddle among ourselves. So if someone doesn't want to paddle with you please don't be offended." Those weren't the exact words but caught the flavor of some of the announcements and the overtone of not wanting to mix with the rift raff. I don't think the people realized how they were coming across; I actually knew some of the people and they were fine folk. But it was incredibly off-putting; my wife still talks about it. We simply decided that we weren't going to put ourselves in that position and so did not go although the locales sounded interesting. BTW, these were not particularly rugged trip being planned, say involving lots of open ocean surf or incredible distances that a less-than-elite paddler could handle. Right then and there I pledged to myself never to come across that way for a trip that was being advertised to a large group of people. Don't get me wrong. Trips often do need qualifications but an open trip is an open trip. If people show up who are less than qualified then the leader should be ready to alter the dimensions of the entire trip (where is it written that every trip must be challenging?) or split the group into two trips with one within the ability of the weaker arrivals and the other offering a challenge for the better paddlers. ralph diaz *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 12:52 PM -0400 4/27/01, ralph diaz wrote: > >Right then and there I pledged to myself never to come across that way for a >trip that was being advertised to a large group of people. Don't get me >wrong. Trips often do need qualifications but an open trip is an open trip. >If people show up who are less than qualified then the leader should be >ready to alter the dimensions of the entire trip (where is it written that >every trip must be challenging?) or split the group into two trips with one >within the ability of the weaker arrivals and the other offering a challenge >for the better paddlers. I understand how their attitude would put you off. But I also understand their desire to paddle where they want to and not want to compromise just because someone came who is not up to the trip. I could see that if this happened a few times they would just stop posting notifications about their plans. Maybe they felt it was better to let people know about their trip and come across as ornery than to keep their plans to themselves thus giving no one had the opportunity to join them. Besides if people know you will scale back the plans if a weaker paddler shows up, weaker paddlers are more likely to show up. Suddenly the guy who though he was going to have a fun, challenging paddle with like minded kayakers finds himself in the roll of shepherd. The whole idea was for "leaderless" trips. Nick -- Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Schade" <schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com> > > > >Right then and there I pledged to myself never to come across that way for a > >trip that was being advertised to a large group of people. Don't get me > >wrong. Trips often do need qualifications but an open trip is an open trip. > >If people show up who are less than qualified then the leader should be > >ready to alter the dimensions of the entire trip (where is it written that > >every trip must be challenging?) or split the group into two trips with one > >within the ability of the weaker arrivals and the other offering a challenge > >for the better paddlers. > > I understand how their attitude would put you off. But I also > understand their desire to paddle where they want to and not want to > compromise just because someone came who is not up to the trip. I > could see that if this happened a few times they would just stop > posting notifications about their plans. Maybe they felt it was > better to let people know about their trip and come across as ornery > than to keep their plans to themselves thus giving no one had the > opportunity to join them. I wish I had saved the exact language used in the announcement that I found off-putting. It came across as stuck-up not safety-conscious. It wasn't a matter of saying that a trip would be demanding but rather that "some of us are important people who don't want to be wet-nosing any unanointed paddlers." Again, I have nothing against setting qualifications for a demanding trip and sticking by them. But if you are doing an all-comers weekend, then you should keep the number of those demanding trips to a minimum and provide opportunities for lesser-beings. Of course, you can't take everyone. If someone shows for a 30 mile round-Manhattan trip but has little hope of completing it with the group (say they are in a Walden Naturalist which would be difficult to get up to any speed), you can't let them come and you are not going to do a one/eighth circumnavigation to please them. But if you announce a weekend under the umbrella of an organization, you should not assume that everyone in the organization is at one's own elite level. I think one can set a trip that is a happy compromise that will press the lesser-paddlers to reach a bit while not boring the elite ones. There are a number of Paddling Trip Dynamics 101 tips that can make a pretty successful trip of combined-level paddlers. I think in that setting, both elite and less-than-elite paddlers can both gain from the experience. I firmly believe in tailoring open trips to the paddling level that shows up, to a degree. Say you have a 15 mile trip planned but it isn't involving some specific destination critical to the trip's nature. If people show who can only do 10 miles, why not adjust to that level? You can always paddle the 15 miles or more some other day. Mixed groups of skilled and less-skilled paddlers do learn from each other. Obviously, if the person shows up clueless without proper gear and can't even get into his boat, then you can't include him. ralph diaz *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 3:43 PM -0400 4/27/01, ralph diaz wrote: >I firmly believe in tailoring open trips to the paddling level that shows >up, to a degree. Say you have a 15 mile trip planned but it isn't involving >some specific destination critical to the trip's nature. If people show who >can only do 10 miles, why not adjust to that level? You can always paddle >the 15 miles or more some other day. Mixed groups of skilled and >less-skilled paddlers do learn from each other. Obviously, if the person >shows up clueless without proper gear and can't even get into his boat, then >you can't include him. > I guess it depends on how you were planning from the start. If you are "leading" a trip under the umbrella of the organization, it is not too much to expect that you tailor it to who shows up. If you are just using the organization to let people know you will be going to a certain place at a certain time then I don't see any reason to change your plans just because someone who can't do it decides to show up. Maybe this time is the "other time" and you won't have another chance until next year and you really want to go the 15 miles not 10. Life is too short to accommodate to everyone. All trips I go on are just a long detour back to the car. I don't get in my kayak because I need to get somewhere. I do it because I want to go for a fun paddle. My plans tend to be fluid and I really don't mind changing them. Chances are if I hook up with someone on my paddle I will stick with them even if they want to turn back before I do. But if I tell someone I am going to paddle 15 miles before they even leave their house and they come and are only able to do 10 miles, that is their responsibility. If it wasn't advertised as a trip they can do, it isn't incumbent on the planner to change his trip to suit someone else's ability. I am not excusing people who are snotty and don't want to mingle with the hoi polloi. Chances are I don't want much to do with them either. But I think there is a place for "leaderless" trips where "I'm going here and doing this. Anyone who wants to do the same show up at..." without being responsible for the welfare of everyone who turns up. There is also a place for "lead" trips where someone is in charge and makes decisions for the group. If someone says the trip is the first type he shouldn't be expected to make it the second. Nick -- Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Apropos of nothing: I was recently part of a four-person overnighter in the San Juan Islands (WA), organized by a local paddling club. We took a ferry to Orcas Island, drove to the put-in, and started loading our boats. It quickly became obvious that one of us -- let's call him Mr X -- was in a league of his own. His paddling outfit consisted of a flannel shirt, cotton pants, and rubber "duck shoes". He wore an inflatable PFD, which he said was only good for one inflation per CO2 canister. The top of his deck was almost completely covered with gear, including a grill and a camp chair. He was trying to tie down some large pieces of firewood on the deck before I talked him out of it. Mr X was tall and heavy. An assisted rescue would be difficult in ideal conditions, nearly impossible with the overloaded deck. The water temperature was probably 45-50 degrees F, and the weather was cool and rainy. Obviously, he was an accident waiting to happen. The leader was concerned, but let Mr X come along, presumably because he'd invested a lot of time and money to get to the put-in. I didn't say anything because I didn't want to second-guess the leader. But, as the trip progressed, I started thinking of all the bad things that could happen -- to me and the other two paddlers, as well as to Mr X. I kept imagining us as the subject of a chapter in the new edition of Sea Kayakers' Deep Trouble. Fortunately, we all made it back from the trip safely. So, my question is, what would you do? How do you deal with situations like this without coming off as an insufferable bore, an alarmist, or a pain in the butt? -Paul *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Paul Murtaugh wrote: [edited heavily] > I was recently part of a four-person overnighter in the > San Juan Islands (WA) [snip] It quickly > became obvious that one of us -- let's call him Mr X -- > was in a league of his own. [he was very unprepared and > was] tall and heavy. An assisted rescue would be > difficult in ideal conditions, nearly impossible with > the overloaded deck. The water temperature was probably > 45-50 degrees F, and the weather was cool and rainy. > Obviously, he was an accident waiting to happen. > The leader was concerned, but let Mr X come along, [snip] > So, my question is, what would you do? How do you deal > with situations like this without coming off as an > insufferable bore, an alarmist, or a pain in the butt? Paul's scenario certainly rang some bells for me. I've been in a situation like this, except that the person was prepared equipmentwise, but not attitudewise. In addition, it developed that he has a phobia about crossings. To top off the list, he also tends to panic in rough water. And, when he does, he wants to grab onto my yak. How to deal with this? Well, I've tried various means. Because I know this guy pretty well, and enjoy paddling with him (he always brings great food), I am trying to get him over his fears, partly by training him on rougher water (controlled conditions), making sure he has done self rescues in cold water rcently, and by keeping my distance when he gets panicky on easy water (when conditions genuinely warrant rafting up, I'll allow that to occur, however). But, to answer Paul's question: ingratiate yourself with "Mr. X" by sharing food, beverages, etc., and striking up a conversation. Then steer the discussion over to some item of gear you use regularly to protect yourself and tout it to appeal to something he cares about. If he is into ogling birds while paddling, emphasize that you have used a paddlefloat outrigger to stabilize your boat for ease in using binocs. If he likes to eat (the grill on the deck is a real tipoff!), explain that you'd like to share the burden, and maybe there is an item he is carrying which is duplicated in your stash ... and you'd let him use yours if he left his at the put in. And so on. I think you get the idea. If this does not work, and the guy is completely intransigent, then move to stronger measures, to make sure he is aware of the extent to which he is jeopardizing others. To wit, explain that if he becomes incapacitated by a hypothermia situation, that will limit everyone else's mobility while they deal with him, and the rest of the group might get stranded or be exposed to dangerous conditions. Sometimes people will feel a responsibility to avoid compromising others' safety even though they are not concerned about their own. (My mother quit her 40-year smoking habit when she realized her second-hand smoke might cause health problems for my father (yeah, I know ... wow!). If the guy is in complete denial and that argument does not begin to change his ways, then haul out the howitizers: confront the group leader and demand the guy be left on the beach. After all, if your unwillingness to "second guess" the leader results in an accident or horrible experience, how will you feel afterward? (I've unfortunately held my tongue once or twice and later regretted it in situtions like the one Paul describes. Sorry to say I have been there and done that!) In any case, do not just accept the situation quietly. Take some steps, beginning with tact and persuasion, but be willing to ramp up the ante to a confrontation. Remember, an unprepared paddler is a serious threat to _your_ safety. Much of what I have detailed should have been forestalled by actions the leader should have taken prior to the launch site. The club which allowed this situation to occur is asking for deep trouble (apologies to Broze and Gronseth). Paul should bring this incident up with the leadership of the club. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hello Paul, I've been there, but as a trip leader; I canceled the trip. It was just an overnight trip with my regular paddling buddy and a rank novice. The new guy really dawdled at the put-in (costing us an hour) and we had about 4 hours of daylight to do a 1.5-2 hour crossing. With 3 hours left, winds picking up a little, and a chance of rain, I called it off. My paddling buddy and I would have done just fine, but it was too much to think of taking the new guy across. He could actually have endangered us if he'd have slowed us down so much we got stuck in worsening weather. It's not just Mr. X's safety--it's your own. Without lots of prior communication, people you've never paddled with before are risky prospects for overnight trips. It's strange, but I could probably trust a lot of people here on Paddlewise to be sight-unseen paddling partners, but I've built a general impression of a lot of folks' general paddling attitude from their trip reports, comments, and questions. I'd be more comfortable paddling with some of you on a first outing than I would even somebody I know locally, but whom I've never paddled with. Communication--it's definitely important. >So, my question is, what would you do? How do you deal >with situations like this without coming off as an >insufferable bore, an alarmist, or a pain in the butt? Anyway, to get back to your direct question: it sounded pretty obvious that this guy was "out of the ordinary", so calling attention to the group's predicament would be out of range of being a simple insufferable bore. It sounds pretty obvious to me. As for being an alarmist or PITA, that's more dependent on your relationship with your other two paddling partners. I won't hesitate to draw attention to a risky prospect. When paddling with 'untried' partners, I bring spare gear. I would have told him point-blank that the deck load was taboo. I could have loaned him a drytop and neoprene shorts (something is better than nothing). Then again, I'm 6'-6", so I buy XL even though I'm skinny, so my gear will fit almost everybody. As for no prior rescue abilities, I'd take that under consideration with an eye to the weather/water conditions. If it looked mild, I feel confident I could get the individual back in his boat in a pinch. If things looked dicey, and rescues seemed imminent every 15 minutes, I would call off the trip. One can't expect a novice to have all the gear, skills, and knowledge right off the bat, but there are things that you can have them avoid doing that can make the harder-to-avoid risks more bearable. Nobody likes to be a quitter, but sometimes canceling the trip is the safest thing to do. Sad to say, after you've done it once, it gets easier! Considering the effort and expense involved in merely getting to Orcas in the first place, these things could have been abated earlier with more communication before the trip. Shawn Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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