Rick Sylvia wrote: >A week ago, in a class, the instructor talked about placing the paddle in >the water at your toes, and removing it from the water at your hip. He gave >a quick explanation of the physics of taking it out at the hip rather than a >longer follow through, then went on to another topic. I meant to ask him >about it back at the take-out, but forget, now I can't even remember the >quick explanation. > >So.... what are the physics here? Why do you lose efficiency if your stroke >extends past your hip? It was something about water compression versus >lift????? G'Day Having wasted more energy than I like to remember using a paddlestroke which went too far behind the hip and having recently corrected the stroke, I can vouch for the efficiency of taking the paddle out near the hip - in the long term its much less tiring. What seems to happen when I take out the blade too far behind the hip is that the stroke pushes water in to the side of the boat as well as lifting the water on the blade, neither of which is productive in moving the boat forward. By the way I promised to report after a month on the shorter paddle and olympic style of stroke and can confirm that it was much more effcient and works fine without any need to brace in up to two foot confused waves and wash, beyond that I revert to a flatter more supporting stroke, (but I have a boat which seems to mold to waves). The spoon blade on the other hand gave good propulsion but very little support and I won't be using it for sea kayaking. All the best, PeterO Who also helps with the Paddlewise Who's Who List so if you need to add an entry or make a modification my email address is rebyl_kayak_at_iprimus.com.au *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John F. said that the last half of the sweep is the stronger part. Maybe I'm put together funny [it wouldn't be the first time I've been told this] but, for me, there is no question that the first half of a forward sweep is far stronger.... I also paddle well past my hip but I don't lift the water, I push it outward. I don't know how a longer stroke makes it a sweep. Did I miss something? Although I do, as seems best, keep the blade "very close to the hull". Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Why do you lose efficiency if your stroke extends past your hip? >It was something about water compression versus lift????? I don't know about water compression and lift but when making a forward stroke you are pulling yourself forward _and_ downward. When your blade comes past your hip you start to pull yourself downward _only_. Since that is not what you want when your intention is to go forward, you could describe this as losing efficiency Dirk Barends *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>I don't know about water compression and lift but >when making a forward stroke you are pulling yourself forward >_and_ downward. When your blade comes past your hip you start to >pull yourself downward _only_. Since that is not what you want when >your intention is to go forward, you could describe this as losing >efficiency Some of the popular techniques that I witnessed in Greenland, and was shown by Maligiaq Padilla, employ a very long stroke where the paddle exits well past the hip. Once variant is to develop a "kick" which is possible if the paddle is canted forward as it moves upward. Another method, illustrated in John Heath's Sea Kayaker article on Maligiaq's stroke (http://www.seakayakermag.com/june2000/JuneHeath2.htm), is to take a very long stroke, but instead of lifting the paddle upward, it is sliced edgewise through the water, moving forward to exit. Maligiaq reports that this has the added benefit of preventing the emerging (unfeathered) blade from being "slapped" and stopped by a breaking wave, as the blade is canted forward in almost a "feathered" fashion. I don't know how well these techniques apply to paddles other than Greenland "sticks". Greg Stamer http://www.magicnet.net/~gstamer/QK.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nevertheless, an interesting observation and worthy of some experiment. Thanks a lot Greg. Greg Stamer wrote: > > I don't know how well these techniques apply to paddles other than Greenland > "sticks". > > Greg Stamer -- ¤ Gabriel L Romeu ¤ http://studiofurniture.com + /diary or + /paint *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dirk Barends wrote: I don't know about water compression and lift but when making a forward stroke you are pulling yourself forward _and_ downward. When your blade comes past your hip you start to pull yourself downward _only_. Since that is not what you want when your intention is to go forward, you could describe this as losing efficiency Dirk - How is it that pulling yourself forward and downward is good but pushing yourself forward and upward is not? When I paddle with my Inuit paddle I must be doing something hideously incorrect because the blade goes well past my hip and the boat jumps foward when the flex of the shaft straightens out. Same with my Euro paddle, although not as pronounced. Forgive the sarcasm, but my own experience says this "pull the paddle out at the hip" thing is just not always the best advice. We are all built differently from each other and use our paddles in many different ways. For some of us, Inuit and Wing paddlers especially, the longer stroke makes the boat go nicely. Olympic paddlers all go past their hips, to my eyes, and they are able to go long and hard and fast. Many people who go past their hips are basically letting the blade float up, there isn't much force being applied. Others fling the blade out and get forward propulsion. If it makes for a relaxed, graceful, powerful stroke, I count it as a good thing. I look forward to other thoughts on the subject. Jim Tibensky _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I totally agree with this statement Jim and leaves us all the grand opportunity to experiment and report back. Interesting topic! We are all built > differently from each other and use our paddles in many different ways. > > I look forward to other thoughts on the subject. > ¤ Gabriel L Romeu ¤ http://studiofurniture.com + /diary or + /paint *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
James Tibensky" <jtibensky_at_msn.com> wrote: >>>>>>>John F. said that the last half of the sweep is the stronger part. Maybe I'm put together funny [it wouldn't be the first time I've been told this] but, for me, there is no question that the first half of a forward sweep is far stronger.... <<<<<<< I'm not sure what you mean by this but whether the first or last part of a sweep intended to turn the kayak is stronger or not is probably immaterial. If you are moving forward the very last part of a sweep stroke will have the most effect on turning even if the effort is the same because there is less pressure on the stern half of a forward moving kayak and therefore it takes less effort to move the stern to the side than to move the bow to the side. Now a kayak with a slalom kayak bow and a Nordkapp HM stern might shift this balance enough to make me wrong for that kayak but in general the stern of a forward moving kayak moves to the side easier than the bow. This is part of the reason why a moving slalom kayak will spin out if not carefully guided with the paddle. >>>>>>>.I also paddle well past my hip but I don't lift the water, I push it outward. I don't know how a longer stroke makes it a sweep. Did I miss something? Although I do, as seems best, keep the blade "very close to the hull".<<<<<<< Any part of the stroke that is pushing in any direction other than straight back is likely to be less efficient unless the paddle can store that energy until it can be used during a more straight back time. This is why loading up the paddle early in the stroke (bending it slightly to store some energy) is better than loading it up after it has past the point of maximum efficiency. If the paddle is used in a sweep you loose energy to turning the kayak. If you keep the blade close to the kayak you loose energy to lifting water once the paddle blade passes perpendicular. The more passed perpendicular you are the more energy is wasted unnecessarily to fighting gravity. A keeping power on little way past perpendicular may well still be beneficial overall since it may still be more efficient than the losses inherent in the non-propelling parts of the extra strokes that result from a shorter stroke. On the same subject Mike wrote: >>>>>>>>I know one BCU instructor that states quite emphatically that this is completely wrong. He says that the water is too turbulent near the rear of the hull for the stroke to be effective and insists you stop just past the hip. I think he's wrong, IMNSHO, because the turbulent water is very close to the kayak and you'd have to whack the kayak with the blade to get into that region.<<<<<< I wonder if this was his own idea or straight from the BSU handbook? >>>>>Personally, I have a real problem with all these explanations. If you do a sweep stroke from the torso, with hands low (paddle shaft close to horizontal) and in a more or less static position relative to the body, you are applying a constant moment (torque)* that will turn the kayak regardless of the point where the paddle is inserted! Or to get to the point, the stroke is just as effective in turning at the front as at the back.<<<<<< True only if the kayak has no directional movement when you are doing this. In other words you are only spinning in place (and the kayak is symmetrical underwater--bow to stern). >>>>>>>>I wonder if the illusion that the power is at the back comes from the fact that the beginning of the stroke uses power to accelerate the kayak, while the later part of the sweep just maintains the rotation speed?<<<<<<< No, see above explanation. You could easily test this by just starting the acceleration from a different point in the stroke and only applying power for a given (shorter) time, rather than always starting the sweep near the bow. An experienced paddler soon learns this intuitively and knows it whatever bogus explanation they might come up with to explain it (like more turbulence in the back--true, but not the reason). A paddler soon learns that stern draws and pries are much more effective than bow strokes in controlling a kayak or canoe. This is also why the paddler in the stern of a canoe is the one that can control it the easiest. >>>>>>>I always do a sweep with a full rotation (as close to 180 degrees as I need) and often do a return stroke as a low brace. The latter keeps me confident if on a hard edge.<<<<<<< Lifting the elbow and kissing the water gently with the back of the blade on the return. Anybody who doesn't do this stroke should run right out and practice it. It will greatly increase your ability to turn quickly. To quote our paddling skills manual (on the website at least until my insurance company decides I should get rid of it:~( )-: "[NOTE: Turning strokes are all enhanced by tilting the kayak. Tilting in either direction helps but tilting to the outside of the turn works best because this not only lifts the ends of the kayak more out of the water (than when level), it also allows the stern keel to skid more easily. The more you tilt the kayak (not necessarily yourself) the quicker the turn. With practice you'll find you can lean the kayak over quite far (like dipping the coaming in the water) by adding some bracing component to the SWEEP strokes for security (e.g. high brace component on a forward sweep.) Lifting the elbow to do a skimming low brace on the return before the next stroke provides the security to maintain the strong lean between strokes. But we've gotten a little ahead of ourselves so on to the next group of strokes so you can catch up.]" Gabriel wrote: >>>>>>and now for something completely different- I was taught (ACA/BCU) the the primary sweep power is at the bow til 2:00, forward from 2-4:00, then strong sweep from 4-6:00.<<<<<<< Why does the time of day effect this? Is it a hormone thing? Is there a pill I can take to help even this out? ;-) Niels wrote: >>>>Anybody out there able to understand my reasoning?<<<< Please define "bowstroke" such as you used it in "A bowstroke at the stern,..." Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. 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I have been reading this string of messages with a degree of interest and a degree of amusement. The former because there are some nifty thoughts here and there. The latter because I see the beginnings of a doctrinaire approach to paddling, i.e. do it by the numbers in a specific way or else it is wrong. I think this results from enormous specificity that has creeped into training and evaluation of strokes for various certification procedures and levels of instruction. As I listen and read all this, I am thinking of marathon runners. No two run in exactly the same way. Some are swinging out their elbows like two basketball centers fighting for position under the hoop. Some hardly move their arms or one arm is swinging and the other imitating a broken wing sparron. Some bounce. Others glide with nary a millimeter of rise and fall to their heads. Some are taking small strides. Others are fully extending in their strides. All of them are elite runners. Paddling is somewhat similar. Your anatomy, your muscle structure, your degree of stamina, your aches and pains and flexibility and lack of flexibility that you bring to the water, which is always changing under your paddle, which itself is not uniform; and all of this is going on in not a standard boat but rather a range of 100s of different models with different shapes and lengths. Matt seems to make a lot of sense here by poking holes in some of the doctrinaire aspects of paddling palaver. There are certainly a wide range of ideas about how to paddle and how to turn but so much depends on you, your paddle and your boat. Look at them, give them a try but please don't feel that you are doing things wrong if you don't conform to any of the cookie cutter ideas floating around out there about right and wrong ways to paddle. ralph diaz *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
James Tibensky wrote: >How is it that pulling yourself forward and downward is good >but pushing yourself forward and upward is not? [...] Never wrote that I consider pulling yourself downward is good, and I didn't mention pulling upward too, since that is impossible when paddling. (Maybe when poling it is possible?) Pulling yourself forward and downward is just what happens, when making a forward stroke, because that is the direction your pulling arm is pulling yourself, and with that your boat. The more your paddleblade is coming past your hips, the more the pulling arm is directed downwards, so you are pulling yourself downwards more, which I consider less (to not at all) efficient. Personally I prefer to stop my forward stroke when the elbow of my pulling arm is coming past my body, which is a better reference point than the blade in my opinion. But don't know whether this applies to kayaking though. Dirk Barends *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze wrote (a lot): [...] This is also why the paddler in the stern of a canoe is the one that can control it the easiest. [...] If you try to move the bow of a canoe as a stern paddler you will find out that this gives the wrong description about how tandem canoeing really works. But it can also apply to solo work: if I want to make a really sharp turn with my boat, I will have to make bow strokes, because stern strokes won't do it as well. Although I can imagine that if your bow is a whole lot more directional stable then your stern, it could be to difficult to move the bow? I personally don't like that kind of designs for touring. Dirk Barends *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
dbarends_at_xs4all.nl (Dirk Barends) wrote: >>>>>>>>Matt Broze wrote (a lot): [...] This is also why the paddler in the stern of a canoe is the one that can control it the easiest. [...] If you try to move the bow of a canoe as a stern paddler you will find out that this gives the wrong description about how tandem canoeing really works.<<<<<<<<< I can't quite figure out how you got to here from what I said. The paddler in either end of the canoe mostly only moves the end they are in. In general, when the canoe is moving forward the stern paddler can move the stern end more than the bow paddler can move the bow end because of the relative water pressures on each end. Since either paddler turns the canoe when they move their end to the side, the stern paddler can turn it more. The situation would be reversed if backing up. [Note: There are other factors here as well. One is that since the leg room required means the stern paddler usually sits closer to the stern (than the bow paddler sits towards the bow) this gives the stern paddler a leverage advantage even when not moving forward. The relative weights of the paddlers will affect the trim of the kayak and the rocker could be asymmetrical as well and affect the system along with the direction of motion. >>>>>>>>But it can also apply to solo work: if I want to make a really sharp turn with my boat, I will have to make bow strokes, because stern strokes won't do it as well. Although I can imagine that if your bow is a whole lot more directional stable then your stern, it could be to difficult to move the bow? I personally don't like that kind of designs for touring.<<<<<<<< I suspect you have your solo canoe trimmed stern heavy (which will make it track better and loosen the bow making it easier to move the bow around than the stern). Move yourself well forward in the canoe and you will probably find the stern gets so maneuverable as to be hard to control. Another possibility is that you are shifting your weight well forward already when you reach way forward for those "bow strokes" so it may not be the strokes position so much as your weight shift that is helping you turn better with those "bow strokes". Some folks were trying to separate the physics from the biomechanics earlier to simplify the issues but I think biomechanics are important here as well. There are certain body positions where a person can put the most power on during the paddle stroke. This varies a little from person to person. The bent shaft on canoe paddles (and wing racing kayak paddles) is there so the blade is most vertical at the position where the particular racer is the strongest. Elite racers have been tested individually and the bend adjusted to suit them. I for one can pull the blade in a lot harder when it is doing a stern draw than when I am trying to push the paddle outward near the bow to push the bow over. The only way I seem to be able to get a lot of drawing power out towards the bow is to use the cross-bow draw stroke. This is another stroke (like the skimming low-brace return) I think is underutilized by sea kayak paddlers. A detailed description of it is in the "Paddling" manual on our website. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze wrote: >I can't quite figure out how you got to here from what I said. The paddler >in either end of the canoe mostly only moves the end they are in. In >general, when the canoe is moving forward the stern paddler can move the >stern end more than the bow paddler can move the bow end because of the >relative water pressures on each end. Since either paddler turns the canoe >when they move their end to the side, the stern paddler can turn it more. [...] You are confirming here mostly what I meant, only your conclusion is different, based probably on the fact that I see 'control' as being able to make really tight maneuvers for instance. Although the stern may turn easier/more than the bow, that still does not move the bow (enough). And that is what I would not describe as easier control from the stern (paddler) as you did. If I want to move the bow, the bow has to be maneuvered, not the stern. (A lot of ships have bow thrusters for that same reason.) But maybe the maneuvering I (have to) do is a lot tighter? [...] >The bent shaft on canoe paddles (and wing racing kayak paddles) is there >so the blade is most vertical at the position where the particular racer is >the strongest. [..] Although I do use a bent-shaft paddle (mostly), I have my doubts about this explanation of the advantage of the bent-shaft paddle. I have given it a lot of thought and reading, but my own assumption, so far, is to describe the effect as that the bent-shaft paddle gives the last part of the forward stroke more effectiveness than a straight shaft? (But I admit that the reason I prefer a bent-shaft is because it _feels_ more effective.) But as you said yourself: >Some folks were trying to separate the physics from the biomechanics >earlier to simplify the issues but I think biomechanics are important >here as well. [...] The problem indeed is that we frequently 'forget' that we are separating the physics from the biomechanics, which often does not give the right explanation of how things really work in paddling. Not to mention the fact that we are describing things with words, which often tends to make it a sort of 'language' problem too. So to clear up possibly one language question that you asked about: when Niels Blaauw was talking about 'bow strokes', I think he meant bow sweep strokes? When I say 'bow strokes', I mean (all) strokes done at the bow, like bow sweeps and bow draws, and their stationary versions respectively bow rudder and bow post, with their crossover counterparts. Dirk Barends *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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