Just returned from an abbreviated trip to Barkley Sound with four others, all reasonably fit folks, four with ruddered sea kayaks, and one without. The paddler without a rudder was unable to maintain a course across a well-developed sea generated by 10-12 knots of steady wind. The combination of wind and seas persistently threw her on a course some 20 - 30 degrees downwind. Although she had enough strength to correct that deviation the first half of the crossing, she eventually wore out. In order to get her to a safe harbour some one and a half sea miles away, we resorted to a light tow in which a strong paddler applied only enough towing force to keep her bow headed in the correct direction. With that assistance, she made it to camp handily, under her own steam. The paddler in question is a fifty-ish woman with "normal" upper body strength, extremely good endurance, and a perhaps a total of 40-50 hours in her small wooden kayak (a Pygmy Osprey Standard). This boat was trimmed for reasonably neutral helm, and ballasted at the center with 20 pounds of water. I believe that those who know the hull will testify that it is not a high-performance hull; rather, it is designed for reasonably high stability, and ease in course correction via leaning. She had previously paddled that boat, maybe four times, in seas generated by 8-10 knot breezes in her home paddling area with the same ballasting/trim setup, and had never before encountered this problem. I have paddled the same boat in much rougher beam sea/wind conditions, and had never been unable to maintain a desired course. Aside from outweighing the lady by some 60-70 pounds, I am a quite a bit stronger, and experienced in correction strokes. I believe this is a clear case for the practical value of a rudder in this sea kayak. Though I don't "need" it (and don't want it) in the boat -- it's my clean day tripper -- a rudder would have saved the day for the woman who used it that crossing. She has previously paddled larger boats, with greater windage, across similar sea/wind combinations, using the body strength at her command. Those boats had rudders, enabling her to direct those boats where she needed to go. We have had a couple bouts of discussion here, edging sometimes to theological terrain, on the issue of rudder/no rudder. For me, it now boils down to whether or not an "average" paddler can get home or not. I am no longer convinced that there exists a "perfect" combination of hull shape and trim which will get an "average" paddler to safety. In the case I have described, sure enough, __I__ could have made the crossing in that boat, with room to spare. But other folks, working their way, by trial and error, through the catalog of paddling experiences needed to use that boat safely are likely to have a couple of strandings (or worse) without the backup of a rudder. That's unsafe. When I read, here or elsewhere, that a rudder is an abomination on a hull, I am sure to recall that woman's travails this week. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>The paddler without a rudder was unable to maintain a course across a >well-developed sea generated by 10-12 knots of steady wind. For those who might wonder why New Zealand kayaks all have rudders, a 20+ knot sea breeze in summer (and other times during the year) is the normal for a large part of the country. 10 knots I barely notice. In my area, an afternoon's paddle would often/usually finish with 20 knots on the beam for half an hour. Also, running down the harbour for an hour is so much more enjoyable with a rudder, making catching waves so much easier - no wasted sweep strokes, only power strokes to catch the waves. Alex . . *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> >The paddler without a rudder was unable to maintain a course across a > >well-developed sea generated by 10-12 knots of steady wind. This paddler/boat combination "needed" a rudder. But the use of the term "need" in combination with rudders is often misplaced. In 20 knot winds with developed or confused seas a rudder makes things easier and saves energy for anyone, including those perfectly capable of handling these conditions. Conditions which are not at all dangerous for an experienced paddler. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi, I understand the argument for a device to correct the weathercocking - but why just presume the only answer is a rudder? I'd at least evaluate the option of an adjustable skeg - some advantages over a rudder I feel are: Set and forget, once you are on a particular track/direction you dial in the amount of skeg you need for a neutral paddling action and away you go. Don't forget it is not just an on/off device - it can be adjusted! Whenever you change direction you automatically adjust the skeg if there is any wind about. You need a cable / slider controlled skeg for this to work well - not the cord and cleat system... VCP do sell an after-market kit... the new solid tube slider looks great - but it can't be retro fitted to my boat :8-( Solid footpegs/footrest with absolutely no movement for a good forward paddling action - especially in larger seas! I rest my feet on the bulkhead on my boat - very comfy. Does not lift out of the water (unlike a rudder) in big seas. Robust - easily withdrawn into the hull for landing or rescues - a rudder has lots of lines and bungies on the deck with a few 'sharp' edges here and there as well. Boat does not have a hideous carbuncle on the back ;-) On my VCP Pintail the skeg gives me two boats - a manoverable one for playing in rock-gardens and a good tracking boat for the open crossing or two... I have tried a boat with a rudder and my simple brain did not like having to use my feet for forward paddling and steering, especially in 'extremis'! I don't mind the 'stealing' of space in the back hatch really, as sensible packing can get round this. But of course - the 'real' reason I don't use a rudder is none of my mates would paddle with me if I had a 'wimpy' rudder.... =8=] Keith snip > > We have had a couple bouts of discussion here, edging sometimes to theological > terrain, on the issue of rudder/no rudder. For me, it now boils down to > whether or not an "average" paddler can get home or not. I am no longer > convinced that there exists a "perfect" combination of hull shape and trim > which will get an "average" paddler to safety. In the case I have described, > sure enough, __I__ could have made the crossing in that boat, with room to > spare. But other folks, working their way, by trial and error, through the > catalog of paddling experiences needed to use that boat safely are likely to > have a couple of strandings (or worse) without the backup of a rudder. That's > unsafe. > > When I read, here or elsewhere, that a rudder is an abomination on a hull, I > am > sure to recall that woman's travails this week. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Keith W Robertson" <news_at_fachwen.org> > You need a cable / slider controlled skeg for this to work well - not > the cord and cleat system... Ya know Keith, this sounds like an example of a badly designed system generating the opinion. I spent five days paddling an NDK Explorer in the past month and compared the skeg to that on my Boreal Designs Ellesmere. The Explorer uses a VCP skeg, as I understand it. If my only experience in life was with such VCP skegs, I'd agree with your comment that you need a slider. The Ellesmere uses a skeg _very_ similar to the VCP, however, it's been improved. In the Ellesmere, the two disks on the side of the skeg are larger in diameter. This means that there is more leverage for the controls and lower forces required to use it.. It also means that the control line has to move further for a given degree of deployment. While the Explorer had the line move less than three inches from fully retracted to fully deployed, the Ellesmere allows more like five inches (both "measurements" by eyeball, so they are inexact). This means that the Ellesmere allows a finer degree of control even with the line and cleat system. There's more to it. The skeg in both designs is retracted by a pair of bungie cords. The bungies and the control line all come out to the upper deck through the same hole. The Explorer has the line and bungies coming forward, the line to a pulley and the bungies to a fitting on the centerline of the rear deck. This means that they compete for space in the hole. BD changed that so the bungies come up and route to a fitting to the rear of the hole while the control line runs forward through a pulley. This means that they don't interfere with each other. There is a _huge_ difference in the amount of friction present. With my Ellesmere, I can easily set any angle or degree of deployment I want. With the Explorer, I got fed up with the thing and either left it up or released it fully; it wasn't worth the annoyance to fiddle with it. I had emailed Boreal Designs about their skeg and asked about the report in Sea Kayaker's review that they were redesigning it. They responded that after reviewing the designs on the British kayaks (and probably the rate of failure*) they found their own system adequate and were not going to adopt the slider system. This past weekend, I was up to visit Rockwood Outfitters, the folks who manufacture the Nigel Foster kayaks for Walden. They had one on show. I spoke with one of the partners in Rockwood and he told me that they had redesigned the skeg on that kayak so that it works better and is easier to make. It was somewhat more rigid (playing with it by hand - no water nearby) than the VCP style. I doubt it would vibrate at speed like the VCP style. It is not a long fin like the VCP, but a smallish, rounded triangle that adds less than four inches to the draft. It is also a different plastic, not ABS like the VCP style. This looks like a good design. Over time I'm becoming more convinced that bad design influences opinions on skegs and rudders more than the potential performance or utility of a good product. Mike * The failure rate of the sliders appears to be higher than they'd like you to believe. When I spoke to Ed at Explore Kayaking, the Canadian importer of NDK kayaks, he said that he doesn't recommend the current slider because they fail too often. He also said that NDK is reviewing the design and is toying with a different slider - one that dispenses with the rod. It is bending of the rod that causes the system to jam. Replacing the rod is a maintenance headache. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mmmmm.... my Pintail's skeg has no bungies whatsoever... and the slider range is about 5 inches which gives good, fine control. The mechanism is simply a thick stainless steel wire, stiff but flexible, which moves inside a tube (internal to the boat) from the cockpit to the skeg box. Because it's a thick, flexible cable it can push as well as pull, hence no need for a sprung 'return mechanism'. The control knob is simply bolted to the cable, with a support rod 'underneath' to act as a guide. I saw a Nigel Foster boat once with a similar system - but they used such a thin cable it easily got bent and then was useless. A friend has a Silhouette an has removed the mechanism altogether. I find the system is easily field serviceable - so long as you take a spare cable with you! You can swap it round in an emergency if haven't a spare - on the beach! Not really a "maintenance headache" at all, especially if you practice at home first. The only weakness is if the skeg gets jammed - usually launching from a beach where something gets in-between the skeg and the skeg box - you go to deploy the skeg and the slider moves - but you bend the wire... 8-( ...You then can't use the skeg very well at all. Thankfully it cannot get jammed on the water. Remember to retract it near rocks or when landing! (Skegs UP!) Both myself and my partner have had the cable bend and render it useless ONCE! Now we instinctively, carefully and GENTLY check out the system immediately after launching, if it's stuck we don't try to force it but get someone to pull the skeg free from the back of the boat, this has fixed the problem every time so far, though it does not happen often at all. VCP have now refined the system (copying a KayakSport design) where the slider system at the end you use has a very solid hollow tube which slides back and forth - with the flexible cable held inside this tube and the control 'knob' screwed through the tube to grip the cable. This does away with the old support rod which lay parallel to the bendy cable. The flexible cable is now not visible at this end at all. This means it would be virtually impossible to bend the cable at the cockpit end of the boat... You might still get some cable trouble at the skeg end - but in 4 years of using the older system we never have... As for outfitters finding them failing often - the same happens here in North Wales - beginners hammer the kit and throw all sorts of abuse at them, usually accidentally! If you looked at boats that people owned themselves - I think you'd find that the failure rate would be much lower... I think most of Nigel's hire fleet has the older cord and cleat system which can stand abuse by beginners a lot better! I feel the new solid rod system to be very robust - the only problem is I'd have to change my boat if I want it - as it apparently can't be added easily to my older version. At the last Canoe Exhibition in Birmingham, UK, Nigel was having a good look at the VCP system - so it may well appear on his boats sometime soon... once he gets his new factory in Holyhead sorted out! I shot a little video at this exhibition - which included a shot of the new slider in action... you can see it on: www.fachwen.org Keith > From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net (PaddleWise) > Reply-To: PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net > Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 09:21:41 -0700 > To: paddlewise-digest_at_paddlewise.net > Subject: PaddleWise V1 #1607 > > * The failure rate of the sliders appears to be higher than they'd like you to > believe. When > I spoke to Ed at Explore Kayaking, the Canadian importer of NDK kayaks, he > said that > he doesn't recommend the current slider because they fail too often. He also > said that NDK > is reviewing the design and is toying with a different slider - one that > dispenses with the rod. > It is bending of the rod that causes the system to jam. Replacing the rod is > a maintenance > headache. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I replaced the original cable on my Nordkapp system with a heavier and stiffer stainless cable from West Marine. It required a little drilling of the slider knob and skeg but all the tubes carrying the cable had plenty of room. It is significantly more robust and has unjammed when the original cable may have bent. I replaced the cable when a fellow who borrowed the boat dropped it on the skeg. In a pinch, it's possible to reverse the cable so the bent part is in the cockpit. Make sure you leave surplus cable extending into the cockpit. cu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Keith W Robertson" <news_at_fachwen.org> > I saw a Nigel Foster boat once with a similar system - but they used such a > thin cable it easily got bent and then was useless. A friend has a > Silhouette an has removed the mechanism altogether. Could be one of the older Netherlands-built models. > The only weakness is if the skeg gets jammed - usually launching from a > beach where something gets in-between the skeg and the skeg box - you go to > deploy the skeg and the slider moves - but you bend the wire... 8-( One reason I prefer the line and cleat - I can "pump" the line and the thing usually clears. > ...You then can't use the skeg very well at all. Thankfully it cannot get > jammed on the water. Remember to retract it near rocks or when landing! > (Skegs UP!) Since it is extremely rare that I used the rudder on my older Solstice, I am not in the habit of doing that. Hence, I usually forget to retract the skeg on the Ellesmere. No damage yet. > Both myself and my partner have had the cable bend and render it useless > ONCE! Now we instinctively, carefully and GENTLY check out the system > immediately after launching, if it's stuck we don't try to force it but get > someone to pull the skeg free from the back of the boat, this has fixed the > problem every time so far, though it does not happen often at all. I paddle solo so often, that's not an option for me. > VCP have now refined the system (copying a KayakSport design) where the > slider system at the end you use has a very solid hollow tube which slides > back and forth - with the flexible cable held inside this tube and the > control 'knob' screwed through the tube to grip the cable. This does away > with the old support rod which lay parallel to the bendy cable. The flexible > cable is now not visible at this end at all. This means it would be > virtually impossible to bend the cable at the cockpit end of the boat That sounds like the kind of thing that Ed described for the next year's Explorer. Perhaps they've just upgraded to follow what VCP is doing. > As for outfitters finding them failing often - the same happens here in > North Wales - beginners hammer the kit and throw all sorts of abuse at them, > usually accidentally! If you looked at boats that people owned themselves - > I think you'd find that the failure rate would be much lower... I think most > of Nigel's hire fleet has the older cord and cleat system which can stand > abuse by beginners a lot better! In this case, it was the kayaks he's sold that fail. Ed's rentals are line and cleat like Nigel's. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Aha! A resurrection of the rudder/no rudder debate... one of my favorite topics. Pro-rudder heretics, know ye fear, since we shall soon smite you into utter oblivion.... ooops, sorry. I guess all the jingoism has me acting out of character. ;-) But for those who must ardently hold on to their belief that non-ruddered, non-skegged boats are superior, I would recommend countering Dave's anecdote with the following logical belief systems: #1, the "Rudderer vs Paddler" philosophy: A better paddler, with more control of their boat would have no problem in those conditions, as Dave has explicitly stated how he would have fared. I have also experienced very similar conditions to those experienced by Dave's companion, although they were slightly more extreme, 20+ knots, 4 foot swells, beam seas (just slightly head on). As I rose over each wave, I could feel the energy stored in the crest grabbing the bow of my kayak and knocking it downwind. I had no problem negotiating this because I used a perfectly timed mini-sweep stroke on my down-wave side to exactly counter the turning moment of the wave crest. A slight hip edge lifting my wave-side edge further reduce the purchase of the wave on my kayak and enhanced the turning moment of my sweep stroke. As my boat passed over the crest, I immediately let up on the sweep stroke and took a normal stroke on the opposite side. This prevented me from over-correcting and pointing upwind. I also assesed the size and and force of each wave moments before impact and adjusted the strength of stroke accordingly. The above description of the techinique may be a little obtuse in the written form, but it can be learned easily enough if you spend a reasonable amount of time paddling whitewater rivers. This technique becomes completely second nature after a short while because you must quickly learn how to counter all the swirling and buffeting forces on the river. Heck, if you even learn how to paddle a whitewater boat in a straight line on a lake, you will learn some skill at Effective Boat Control (as I call it). This is one the first major skill sets that whitewater paddlers must learn, and it applies directly to boat control on the sea. My girlfriend, who had only one previous day of sea kayaking experiencing also had no trouble controlling her rudderless, skegless kayak in those same conditions because of her prior experiencing controlling her sea-kayak-like RPM on class III rivers. At least that's my theory :) As an aside, she says that after reading my previous story, over half of her girl-friends at work would have dumped me. Guess I'm just lucky. But of course, the Devil's Advocate would say that it is fine to not have a rudder IF you have the skill, but that a rudder will effectively increase your skill when you need it. In other words, you'll be able to handle rougher conditions with a rudder's potential aid. In fact, lots of people paddle with their rudders retracted, only deploying them when the conditions warrant. There is plenty of merit to this, especially for people who don't have the time/ambition to become expert paddlers. Which leads us to the second major tenet of our anti-rudder belief system: #2, "rudders work fine... until they break. And they always break, sooner or later." Saltwater, and moving metal parts just don't get along very well. Also, skegs can jam with little small rocks (it always happens to me at least once per trip when I paddle a skegged boat). Even worse, the capricious Gods of the Sea usually ensure that breakage occurs at the least opportune time. But the Devil's advocate would then necessarily reply that well designed and maintained rudder systems very rarely break. At which point the vehement anti-rudder crusader must instantly riposte with... #3 "rudder systems inherently are flawed because they reduce the ability to paddle and brace" This is true for the sliding foot-pedal systems, which can make kayaks significantly harder to roll and brace. They rob energy from every paddle stroke, and make the boat harder to edge in rough conditions where this ability is needed most. These systems also jam, are hard to adjust, and I have even seen rudder pedals slide completely out of their tracks during rescues. They simply add too much complication. However, this is not necessarily true, since newer rudder systems have solved all those problems with the gas-pedal style of footbrace. If a rudder is desired, I would highly recommend seeking out this style of rudder. So where does this leave us in our rudder/no rudder holy war? Hrmm, well it appears that nothing is as black and white as the major media would have us think. SYOTW, Kevin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Kruger" <dkruger_at_pacifier.com> To: "Paddlewise" <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2001 11:17 PM Subject: [Paddlewise] She Needed a Rudder > Just returned from an abbreviated trip to Barkley Sound with four others, all > reasonably fit folks, four with ruddered sea kayaks, and one without. > > The paddler without a rudder was unable to maintain a course across a > well-developed sea generated by 10-12 knots of steady wind. The combination of > wind and seas persistently threw her on a course some 20 - 30 degrees > downwind. Although she had enough strength to correct that deviation the first > half of the crossing, she eventually wore out. In order to get her to a safe > harbour some one and a half sea miles away, we resorted to a light tow in which > a strong paddler applied only enough towing force to keep her bow headed in the > correct direction. With that assistance, she made it to camp handily, under > her own steam. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Which is better - an automatic transmission, or a manual one? Who cares? Some people like one, while others prefer the other. I really don't understand this debate of rudder verses skeg verses nothing. I have used all three systems and can see the virtues, and draw backs, of each one. Is one truly better then the other? Despite the overzealous opinions of some of the people on this list I really think it all comes down to what works for you. End of debate! Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Whilden" <kevin_at_yourplanetearth.org> snip > But of course, the Devil's Advocate would say that it is fine to not have a > rudder IF you have the skill, but that a rudder will effectively increase > your skill when you need it. In other words, you'll be able to handle > rougher conditions with a rudder's potential aid. In fact, lots of people > paddle with their rudders retracted, only deploying them when the conditions > warrant. There is plenty of merit to this, especially for people who don't > have the time/ambition to become expert paddlers. A better argument for the Devil's Advocate: rudders can increase forward paddling efficiency under certain conditions for many kayak designs, allowing one to work smarter rather than harder by devoting more energy to forward strokes versus corrective strokes--something paddlers of all skill and fitness levels appreciate. Craig *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Craig MacKinnon wrote: > > A better argument for the Devil's Advocate: rudders can increase forward > paddling efficiency under certain conditions for many kayak designs, > allowing one to work smarter rather than harder by devoting more energy to > forward strokes versus corrective strokes--something paddlers of all skill > and fitness levels appreciate. > > Craig > I actually disagree with that rudders always increase forward paddling efficiency. I control my boat's direction with slight edging, not corrective strokes, and thus a rudder would only add drag. I have heard that rudders can add up to 20% drag, but that is only hearsay. Perhaps Matt Broze has some definite numbers. However I have definitely noticed drag from rudders in boats I have tested, and also on skegs for that matter. I still think that if the boat is balanced and well behaved, then an expert paddler would not gain much benefit from the rudder, and this might even be offset by the drag. Kevin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I think Craig is right on here. In certain conditions many kayak designs do paddle easier with some directional control, be it a retractable skeg or rudder. The fact that Kevin needs to *edge* his boat to make corrections, instead of corrective strokes or mechanical devices is his choice. An edged boat is not going to cruise at the same rate as a flat boat, paddled at the same rate, due to the increase in wetted surface. It's all a compromise. Steve Scherrer Alder Creek Kayak & Canoe N 45º 39' 47" 250 NE Tomahawk Isle Dr. W 122º 36' 16" Portland, OR 97217 Web: www.aldercreek.com Phone: 503.285.0464 Email: aldercreek_at_qwest.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Kevin, I feel a bit out of place breaking in here as I have never used a rudder, but will you be reducing the waterline length edging the boat in effect equaling the additional effort of the drag from a well adjusted rudder (which I speculate may add to waterline length)? Nobody has mentioned the extra fun of paddling a boat without deploying a skeg or a rudder in adverse conditions- it's more like riding instead of driving. I have sometimes found that efficiency is a suitable sacrifice for developing and experimenting with integrating corrective with propulsive strokes (play)- especially with a slow group or if I am not in a hurry. gabriel gabriel Kevin Whilden wrote: > > On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Craig MacKinnon wrote: > > > > > A better argument for the Devil's Advocate: rudders can increase forward > > paddling efficiency under certain conditions for many kayak designs, > > allowing one to work smarter rather than harder by devoting more energy to > > forward strokes versus corrective strokes--something paddlers of all skill > > and fitness levels appreciate. > > > > Craig > > > > I actually disagree with that rudders always increase forward paddling > efficiency. I control my boat's direction with slight edging, not > corrective strokes, and thus a rudder would only add drag. I have heard > that rudders can add up to 20% drag, but that is only hearsay. Perhaps > Matt Broze has some definite numbers. However I have definitely noticed > drag from rudders in boats I have tested, and also on skegs for that > matter. I still think that if the boat is balanced and well behaved, then > an expert paddler would not gain much benefit from the rudder, and this > might even be offset by the drag. > > Kevin > >************************** -- ¤ Gabriel L Romeu ¤ http://studiofurniture.com + /diary or + /paint *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>........... since newer rudder systems have >solved all those problems with the gas-pedal style of footbrace. If a rudder >is desired, I would highly recommend seeking out this style of rudder. NEWER!!!!!!!! newer, they've been around as long or longer than the sliding ones. Well they have in the southern hemisphere. Alex . . *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 9/25/2001 11:05:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time, kwhilden_at_yourplanetearth.org writes: > I actually disagree with that rudders always increase forward paddling > efficiency. I control my boat's direction with slight edging, not > corrective strokes, and thus a rudder would only add drag. I have heard > Umm, don't most, if not all flat water racing kayaks use rudders? In fact, I think most surfskis have rudders as well. Why do all of the fastest boats have rudders if simply edging the boat is so efficient? Just wondering, Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
When I raced sprint boats I was told that the rudder was necessary to steer because steering strokes are not as fast as the sprint forward stroke. A sprint boat is so long and narrow that it resists doing anything but straight line tracking. In a 500 or 1000 meter race [this was thirty years ago and more, I think the distances for races may have changed] the wind or the wakes for other boats [if one was unfortunate enough to be not in the lead] would require course corrections. A 10,000 meter race is over an oval course, with wake riding a crucial skill. Absolutely impossible to ride wakes without a rudder, let alone make a smooth turn. The rudder does slow the boat, but it is a necessary evil. I once had the rudder fall off my sprint boat and I was amazed at two things: 1) how hard it was to get where I wanted go and 2) how much the lack of rudder made the boat more tippy. Jim Tibensky >From: KiAyker_at_aol.com >To: paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net >Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] She needed a rudder >Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 20:17:05 EDT > >In a message dated 9/25/2001 11:05:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time, >kwhilden_at_yourplanetearth.org writes: > > > > I actually disagree with that rudders always increase forward paddling > > efficiency. I control my boat's direction with slight edging, not > > corrective strokes, and thus a rudder would only add drag. I have heard > > > > Umm, don't most, if not all flat water racing kayaks use rudders? In >fact, >I think most surfskis have rudders as well. Why do all of the fastest boats >have rudders if simply edging the boat is so efficient? > >Just wondering, > >Scott >So.Cal. > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed >here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire >responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. >Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net >Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 9/26/01 6:56 AM, "James Tibensky" <jimtibensky_at_hotmail.com> wrote: > 2) how much the lack of rudder made the > boat more tippy. I think this is part of the much neglected factor of what makes a kayak "stable". Rudders if they are "tight" and "skegs" act to "grip" the water and resist quick tipping motions (in an eddy they can promote the same). This is akin to the resistance to quick tipping motions that a very "angular" squared off cross-section boat has. This form of stability does not show up on stability curves. It gives the paddler time to adjust his/her weight and makes the boat effectively more stable. This is particularly noticeable with racing kayaks. Put a dagger board on them and they will "really" be stable:) . Even though the stability curve will not have changed... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 8:56 AM -0500 9/26/01, James Tibensky wrote: ><snip> >The rudder does slow the boat, but it is a necessary evil. I once >had the rudder fall off my sprint boat and I was amazed at two >things: 1) how hard it was to get where I wanted go and 2) how much >the lack of rudder made the boat more tippy. The rudder will slow the boat relative to the same boat without a rudder, but the rudder lets you design a boat that can be faster because you don't need to worry about controllability. Even after you add a rudder this "uncontrollable" hull can be faster than a controllable boat that doesn't need a rudder. So the added drag of the rudder is more than made up for by the reduced drag of the more efficient hull. Of course if you oversteer, you lose all your gains. Nick -- Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"...reducing the waterline length edging the boat in effect equaling the additional effort of the drag from a well adjusted rudder (which I speculate may add to waterline length)?" In rough windy conditions, most touring paddlers will not be going near hull speed and I doubt that the difference in waterline length between a boat being heeled for steering purposes and a boat on the flat would be significant in terms of resistance. If you are "surfing" downwind going down the face of big waves the situation is a little different. Here you might be going faster than "Hull Speed" A rudder here is helpful to many. But in this situation, you are largely concerned with how well your boat surfs irrespective of the presence or absence of a rudder. In terms of a rudder adding to the length of a boat. This just does not work. You cannot glue the end of a two foot "stick" to the end of your boat below the waterline and expect the boats "effective" waterline length to be increased by two feet. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Scott wrote: >Why do all of the fastest boats >have rudders if simply edging the boat is so efficient? > Because when you design a kayak that sacrifices handling and just about everything else on the alter of "Top Speed" an efficient rudder is a necessary evil to deodorize that kayaks other handling characteristics. Kevin wrote: >>>>>>I have heard that rudders can add up to 20% drag, but that is only hearsay. Perhaps Matt Broze has some definite numbers. However I have definitely noticed drag from rudders in boats I have tested, and also on skegs for that matter. I still think that if the boat is balanced and well behaved, then an expert paddler would not gain much benefit from the rudder, and this might even be offset by the drag.<<<<<< In 1986 Sea Kayaker magazine tested some kayaks in a ship model towing tank at the U of BC. They dropped the rudder (high aspect ratio, flat blade, about 1/8" thick, free to drag straight back) for one of the three 3 knot tests they ran and found it added 10% to the drag of the same kayak without the rudder in the water. They thought there must be something wrong with this test because that was way more drag than they were expecting (considering the relatively small amount of extra wetted surface due to the immersed rudder) so they repeated the test. They got the same results. I suspect a well designed shaped rudder could cut that 10% extra drag in half. James wrote: <SNIP>>>>>In a 500 or 1000 meter race [this was thirty years ago and more, I think the distances for races may have changed] the wind or the wakes for other boats [if one was unfortunate enough to be not in the lead] would require course corrections. A 10,000 meter race is over an oval course, with wake riding a crucial skill. Absolutely impossible to ride wakes without a rudder, let alone make a smooth turn. The rudder does slow the boat, but it is a necessary evil. I once had the rudder fall off my sprint boat and I was amazed at two things: 1) how hard it was to get where I wanted go and 2) how much the lack of rudder made the boat more tippy.<<<<<<<<< Same race lengths as now I believe. Apparently I do the impossible all the time then (but not in a kayak design compromising everything else to top speed). Wake riding was my ace in the hole when I was sea kayak racing and I never used a rudder. In the 500 and 1000 meter Olympic sprint races the kayaks must stay in their own lanes. Because of this the kayaks on each side of the leader have a big advantage over the others as they can ride the leaders divergent bow wake ahead of when all the other competitors can ride it. Because they can't get directly behind the leader they are left with their poor handling (rudder dependant) hulls attempting to ride what is essentially a quartering/following sea (the most difficult course to maintain in a watercraft). In that situation the losses due to the rudder are more than made up for by the boost they get from gravity in riding this wake downhill even though the angled (divergent) wake is also tending to broach them and the rudder angle needed to correct the broaching is adding even more drag than usual. A sprint kayak is also a strong weather helming kayak (same "Top Speed" is everything problem) and especially since they don't lean to turn well either, they also need a rudder to compensate for weather helm in even a slight side wind. If the wind is too strong the race gets postponed or cancelled as well so these Olympic FLATWATER kayaks don't really need to be seakindly at all, just fast. My rudderless turns seem smooth to me (at least in a sea kayak) but I'm not quite sure what James means by "smooth" in this context. Yes, I think we could all learn a lot once the rudder breaks. Once it broke, James discovered how dependent he had become on the rudder for both tracking and stability (at least in the speed optimized sprint kayak he was using in his example). How many of the rudder devotees of this group (who have been paddling for more than a few years using a rudder) can say that they have never had part of a rudder system fail to function for them? For those few how many can say they have never seen a rudder system of someone else's kayak fail. It seems a shame to me to become so dependent on such an unreliable lover. The sprint boat designers are going to try to remove some of the drag that would be due to extra keel surfaces if they are going to have to put up with the extra drag due to the rudder anyhow and the rudder can help with the tracking. They can cut the wetted surface a bit that way and then depend on the rudder for control to make up for some of the tracking loss from cutting back the stern keel (to reduce its wetted surface). A nearly round hull (like on a sprint kayak) doesn't change its shape much when leaned so "lean to turn" control is minimal with them. Race kayaks will not have sliding rudder pedals though, because solid foot braces contacting the ball of the foot are essential to get the most leg power into the stroke. Sprint kayaks usually have a solid foot bar with a central "tiller" coming through the bar (that is "toed" side to side for controlling the rudder). Alex wrote (referring to gas pedal type rudder foot controls one poster described as "newer"): >>>>>>>NEWER!!!!!!!! newer, they've been around as long or longer than the sliding ones. Well they have in the southern hemisphere.<<<<<< Washington's Eddyline, for one, used gas pedal style footpedals on their early Orca model (that dates back to 1977). Eddyline's WT500 model goes back to 1975 but I don't remember how its rudder pedals worked. Although they can be far more effective at transferring power than sliding rudder pedals, unless the gas pedal style also allows for a solid perch for the ball of the foot the gas pedal style footpedals will also take the calf muscles out of play for providing much power (but they will not remove the quads as a power source as well--as sliding pedals tend to do). To expand on what Robert pointed out in his post, you can't strap a long stick onto an inner tube and expect to get the hull speed of the long stick's length. What you get is the hull speed of the inner tube plus the added wetted surface friction of the stick. For the same reason the kayaks with the finest bows and sterns are not the fastest ones even though they look like they should be. I'm trying to think of a simple way to test the relative efficiencies of turning a kayak with a rudder vs. using a lean. Maybe we could test the same kayak with the rudder up and leaned vs. having the rudder down and not leaned and also vs. the rudder down and the kayak also leaned. On a windless day we push the kayak to top (hull) speed (for consistency without a speedometer) just before reaching the starting line. From the starting point on we make no strokes but only coast to see which system will turn the kayak the furthest (and maybe let the kayak coast the furthest as well). The kayaks can be leaned prior to the last few strokes but must cross the starting line while still perpendicular to it. I'm putting my money on the rudderless lean followed next by the both rudder lean (at least with kayaks that respond readily to a lean--not Olympic sprint boats or those kayaks that track like they are on rails). On perfectly calm days I used to make up to 180 degree turns this way in some kayaks (but haven't tried this yet with a rudder). Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"...reducing the waterline length edging the boat in effect equaling the additional effort of the drag from a well adjusted rudder (which I speculate may add to waterline length)?" Actually, I have learned that, depending on the design of the boat, edging/leaning (a bit) can increase waterline length? Dirk Barends *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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