Hi All, Could anyone recommend a thermal skull cap/hood to help with hypothermia? Preferably one that is not as restrictive as the neoprene divers types. Thanks, Peter Rattenbury, Australia. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "cholst" <cholst_at_bitstream.net> To: paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Subject: [Paddlewise] Cold Water Gasp Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 18:54:05 GMT > gasping. An unprotected person in cold water will gasp > uncontrollably. Under water, drowning results. I don't question that this cold water gasp may happen occasionally, but I do question that it is inevitable or indeed happens with any frequency. Chuck Holst Cold Water Gasp: For the record, the cold water gasp is a well documented response to immersion in cold water at 50 degrees F or lower. On my website, I have posted a picture of a "Polar Bear" swimmer exhibiting the response. <http://www.enter.net/~skimmer/coldwater.html> This response has been studied by professional physiologists using instrumented volunteers dressed in a bathing suit in 50 degree F water. Heart rate and respiratory parameters were recorded. Chuck Sutherland *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Chuck Sutherland writes: >> gasping. An unprotected person in cold water will gasp >> uncontrollably. Under water, drowning results. > > I don't question that this cold water gasp may happen occasionally, but I do > question that it is inevitable or indeed happens with any frequency. > > Chuck Holst > > Cold Water Gasp: > > For the record, the cold water gasp is a well documented response to > immersion in cold water at 50 degrees F or lower. On my website, I have posted a picture > of a "Polar Bear" swimmer exhibiting the response. > > <http://www.enter.net/~skimmer/coldwater.html> > > This response has been studied by professional physiologists using instrumented > volunteers dressed in a bathing suit in 50 degree F water. Heart > rate and respiratory parameters were recorded. > > Chuck Sutherland The photo of the Polar Bear swimmer shows him gasping *above water*, where there is no danger in doing so. I have probably done this myself -- but never *below water*, where self-preservation has always kept my mouth shut. I don't dispute the dangers of cold water. I have a great respect for it. I have been in situations that caused uncontrollable shivering in one case and near muscle paralysis in another. I own a dry suit and almost always wear it when the water temperature is below 55 degrees F. I carry a neoprene hood in my day hatch, and don it when appropriate. I have worn both for rolling in Lake Superior on a 90 degree June day when other kayakers were making crossing in T-shirts and shorts. What I do dispute is whether the cold water gasp is truly uncontrollable in situations where it would make a difference. In my experience -- and that of a lot of Finns in northern Minnesota -- in the majority of cases it is not. In those cases where people have gasped underwater and inhaled water, I suggest that surprise may have been as big a factor as water temperature. In situations where the person is mentally prepared, I suggest that an underwater gasp is rare or nonexistent. By mental preparation, I mean that the person has chosen to immerse himself or herself in cold water, or is accustomed to it. Obviously, if mental preparation is an important factor, then practice in cold water can be as important to cold water safety as dressing appropriately, and should be a recommended part of it. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> In those cases where people have gasped underwater and inhaled water, I > suggest that surprise may have been as big a factor as water temperature. In > situations where the person is mentally prepared, I suggest that an > underwater gasp is rare or nonexistent. By mental preparation, I mean that > the person has chosen to immerse himself or herself in cold water, or is > accustomed to it. Obviously, if mental preparation is an important factor, > then practice in cold water can be as important to cold water safety as > dressing appropriately, and should be a recommended part of it. > > Chuck Holst I agree with the above- I have only been in water in the 50's in a swimming suit and my experience was with muscular contraction- sudden- perhaps this might cause some people to exhale then panic and try to inhale?? I did not have the urge to inhale at all but dealing with muscle spasm could be a problem in really cold water. Maybe the response to cold water has a lot to do with ones experience and confidence in the water. Still and all for swimming and rolling etc. (both of which often occur at the same time for me) I would prefer 75 degrees. > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed > here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire > responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. > Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net > Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mike wrote: <<<<<SNIP>>>>>> The cold water gasp phenomena is controllable to some degree and can be prevented with mental prep and by becoming accustomed to cold water. It is primarily a concern for folks that are unprepared.<<<<<< It is my understanding that the folks most likely to be affected by cold water shock mare those whose torsos are exposed enough to experience a very sudden decrease in skin temperature there and those who may have lost their ability to control the gasp reflex when underwater due to the effects of drinking alcohol on the nervous system. I'm guessing alcohol's effect of dilating the blood vessels near the skin might also increase the magnitude of the "shock" experienced during cold water shock. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
no this isn't about guns, or real ones anyway. a while back there was talk about carrying 12 ga flare pistols for protection. Found this web page that has capsicum filled shells to fit them. Might be better than shooting a burning blob at some one. about half way down the page you will see a orange flare pistol the shell are listed there $ 15.97 for 3 rounds. If you never use them for protection you could always use them to spice up the chili :) http://www.best.com/~ahent/stungas.html Dana http://www.fska.org/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I, who am primarily a warm water kind of guy, have never had trouble with an intentional roll in the winter time Mississippi R at 35 degrees water temp or, in somewhat warmer planned brief submersions (rolls) off Long Island's tip,Wales, and the San Juan Islands but ... once got into some very scary and panicky hyperventilation when I left my boat while playing in a hole in Westwater Canyon in Utah. It was my only experience with hyperventilation syndrome and it was quite frightening. I've thought the water temp might have had something causal to do with it but I don't know. It has left in me a significant fear of "swimming". The "gasp" I've never experienced. Larry Koenig Baton Rouge, LA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Just catching up after a week on the road... At 10:54 PM 11/15/01 -0600, Larry Koenig wrote: >The "gasp" I've never experienced. I've experienced the "gasp". My canoe partner and I tipped over in probably 34 degree water. We hadn't been paddling hard and were not dressed for immersion. I was in high school at the time and had no extra insulation. The river we were on was a slow flowing river about 35 feet wide. I leaned over to pick up some trash... The feeling was very similar to having the wind knocked out of you. With the added joy of needing to swim, a minimal distance, in that condition. I have no interest in a repeat experience. The gasp, hypothermia to the point of convulsive shivering and dementia, blacking out from dehydration. Hopefully I'm smarter now that I have experience.... kirk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 11/15/01 9:45:31 AM Pacific Standard Time, cholst_at_bitstream.net writes: Chuck wrote: > > In those cases where people have gasped underwater and inhaled water, I > suggest that surprise may have been as big a factor as water temperature. In > > situations where the person is mentally prepared, I suggest that an > underwater gasp is rare or nonexistent. By mental preparation, I mean that > the person has chosen to immerse himself or herself in cold water, or is > accustomed to it. and Matt: >>It is my understanding that the folks most likely to be affected by cold water shock mare those whose torsos are exposed enough to experience a very sudden decrease in skin temperature there and those who may have lost their ability to control the gasp reflex when underwater due to the effects of drinking alcohol on the nervous system. I'm guessing alcohol's effect of dilating the blood vessels near the skin might also increase the magnitude of the "shock" experienced during cold water shock.<< In Wayne Horodowich's new and very excellent videos on Kayak re-entries and rescues (http://www.useakayak.org/) there is a segment of video shot during testing of cold water effects. A trained and experienced Navy(?) diver, dressed in a swim suit and breathing through a typical diving mouthpiece, is strapped in a chair. He is slowly lowered into water at (IFIRC) 50 F. He looks calm and collected until the water hits his head, then he starts gasping uncontrollably in the mouthpiece. I'm sure he was mentally prepared. What he wasn't was dressed for immersion. The effect is real, and deadly -- just not universal. Harold *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 11/16/01 10:15:27 PM Pacific Standard Time, HTERVORT_at_aol.com writes: > In Wayne Horodowich's new and very excellent videos on Kayak re-entries and > rescues (http://www.useakayak.org/) there is a segment of video shot during > > testing of cold water effects. A trained and experienced Navy(?) diver, > dressed in a swim suit and breathing through a typical diving mouthpiece, > is > strapped in a chair. He is slowly lowered into water at (IFIRC) 50 F. He > looks calm and collected until the water hits his head, then he starts > gasping uncontrollably in the mouthpiece. I'm sure he was mentally > prepared. > What he wasn't was dressed for immersion. The effect is real, and deadly > -- > just not universal. > > Harold > Being a west coast open ocean paddler where the temperatures are much colder than east coast waters, I have had some experience with cold water shock. I have lead many trips in the waters here along the central coast of Ca. as well as several Santa Barbara Channel crossings to the Channel Islands. I have also assisted Wayne Hordowhich teaching kayaking classes. It is my belief, and this is strictly my own theory, that the effects of cold water shock effect differnet people in different ways. I have known paddlers that immediately are effected by cold water and experience the gasping effects of the sudden temperature changes. I have known others that seem to be able to withstand those same changes with what appeared to be ease. I'm am certainly not an expert on this subject but I feel this may be due to body chemistry, body mass and several other factors that I'm sure I'm not aware of. Personally, I know that I am one of those that are effected easily by cold water shock and do all I can to avoid this when I paddle the colder waters in the winter. Wet suit, wet suit jacket, hydro skin shorts/pants and long sleeve hydro skin shirt, long finger gloves, and hydro skin skull warmer are all items I wear. I was recently paddling in the colder waters of No. Ca. where the water temp. was 52 degrees. I was taking a class with the Tsunami Rangers and most the class was conducted in the surf and rock gardens. Because of the large surf we were often in the water and I always felt completely comfortable because of the way I had prepared for it. Just my thoughts... Gregg *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Chuck Holtz wrote: In those cases where people have gasped underwater and inhaled water, I > suggest that surprise may have been as big a factor as water temperature. In > > situations where the person is mentally prepared, I suggest that an > underwater gasp is rare or nonexistent. By mental preparation, I mean that > the person has chosen to immerse himself or herself in cold water, or is > accustomed to it. and Matt: >>It is my understanding that the folks most likely to be affected by cold water shock mare those whose torsos are exposed enough to experience a very sudden decrease in skin temperature there and those who may have lost their ability to control the gasp reflex when underwater due to the effects of drinking alcohol on the nervous system. I'm guessing alcohol's effect of dilating the blood vessels near the skin might also increase the magnitude of the "shock" experienced during cold water shock.<< In Wayne Horodowich's new and very excellent videos on Kayak re-entries and rescues (http://www.useakayak.org/) there is a segment of video shot during testing of cold water effects. A trained and experienced Navy(?) diver, dressed in a swim suit and breathing through a typical diving mouthpiece, is strapped in a chair. He is slowly lowered into water at (IFIRC) 50 F. He looks calm and collected until the water hits his head, then he starts gasping uncontrollably in the mouthpiece. I'm sure he was mentally prepared. What he wasn't was dressed for immersion. The effect is real, and deadly -- just not universal. Harold --------------------- I believe that is the same clip that we use in our Cold Water Workshops. It is a British tape and the man is a trained diver. He is instrumented to record breathing, heart rate, and (probably) blood pressure. His head is not submerged. I believe the receptors involved with the response are in the torso area. I think the gasping reflex is not induced just by submerging the head in cold water. The point of the film clip is to demonstrate the gasping, which continues uncontrolled for a time while the diver is swimming, but also to show that as he swims he looses control of the movements of his arms and legs. Thus, over some minutes in the 50 degree F water, the diver looses the ability to swim. In your average boating accident, with the victim in street clothes, gasping for air and soon unable to swim, drowning occurs long before death due to hypothermia occurs. That is my message, and it is not avoided by a prepared mind. A few people survive better or longer, but it is not right to lead the public to believe that if they just have their heads right they will survive. The man in the photo exhibiting the gasp response is standing on the bottom and can stand up after dunking. It is not by accident that his demonstration is carried out where he can get his head back above the surface. Thanks, Chuck Sutherland *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Chuck Sutherland writes in part: > The point of the film clip is to demonstrate the gasping, which > continues uncontrolled for a time while the diver is swimming, but > also to show that as he swims he looses control of the movements of > his arms and legs. Thus, over some minutes in the 50 degree F water, > the diver looses the ability to swim. In your average boating > accident, with the victim in street clothes, gasping for air and soon > unable to swim, drowning occurs long before death due to hypothermia > occurs. > > That is my message, and it is not avoided by a prepared mind. A few > people survive better or longer, but it is not right to lead the > public to believe that if they just have their heads right they will > survive. > > The man in the photo exhibiting the gasp response is standing on the > bottom and can stand up after dunking. It is not by accident that his > demonstration is carried out where he can get his head back above the > surface. > > Thanks, > Chuck Sutherland > I wonder if we aren't talking about different, though similar, reactions. One, which I can say from my personal experience is not universal, is an *immediate,* uncontrollable gasp that happens when a person submerges in cold water. Such a gasp could very easily cause water to enter the lungs and lead to drowning. I have read variously that this gasp happens when the person's head, chest, or back of the throat is exposed to cold water. I do not deny that this may have happened to some individuals, though in the cases I have read about I believe this gasp was inferred rather than observed. Another is an immediate gasp that happens when all but a person's head is immersed. This is a "safe" gasp, if the immersion is not prolonged, because the person's head is in air, and, since there is little danger of immediate drowning, there is little reason to control it. The second may grade into the third type of reaction: a *delayed,* prolonged, uncontrollable gasping or hyperventilating in air during or after exposure. I have experienced this reaction twice -- once after failing in several attempts to roll and then wet-exiting, and once after serving as the "victim" in an Eskimo rescue when the rescuer took too long to get to me. Both times were in Lake Superior in July. Both times I was submerged longer than normal in cold water, though it was not the coldest water I have been in -- but both times I also ran out of air. The only assertion I really disagree with is that an immediate, *uncontrollable,* underwater gasp is *universal and inevitable.* It might be uncontrollable for some people, but it seems to me that the evidence is clear that many, if not most, people can control it least long enough to get their heads above water -- as when rolling or with a quick wet exit. It seems to me that in most cases the greatest danger is not in the initial exposure, except to the degree it might surprise, confuse, or disorient the victim, but in prolonged exposure -- which might indeed be only a matter of minutes. It is disorientation that habituation might prevent, not the weakening of muscles, though in fact the human body can acclimate to cold to a certain extent -- witness a 30-degree day in March in Minnesota, when people start going about with their jackets unzipped. :-) The other dangers of cold water immersion I concur with. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 11/17/01 6:12:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, skimmer_at_mail3.enter.net writes: > > That is my message, and it is not avoided by a prepared mind. A few > people survive better or longer, but it is not right to lead the > public to believe that if they just have their heads right they will > survive. > > Thanks, > Chuck Sutherland Amen. Sorry if there was any confusion on my last post. I attributed one statement to "Chuck", which was actually Chuck Holst, not Mr. Sutherland. Harold. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi, >From memory I recall that cold shock/gasp reflex can't be prevented by the usual cold water clothing (wet- or drysuit), unless a additional spray hood is worn (feature of real survival suits). Cold shock with related symptoms prevents coordinated action for up to several minutes, the best reason to wear a pfd to survive this period. After cold shock is over, one benefits from immersion gear since hypothermia is delayed. I got this information from a seminar here in our university, held this spring by a guy who does his research on cold water immersion topics (offshore industry is one of the main sponsors of his program). However, the inital response to cold water immersion is different with every individual. Frequent exposure gets the individual habituated, i.e. cold shock last shorter time. Paddlers who frequently roll and practice in cold water get this habituation. Likely they slip unnoticable into this status of higher cold water readiness, since sane people start learning and practicing skills in warmer water and graduate over time to cold water conditions. Longer breaks in practice schedulle and habituation can be lost. So far I only practiced a few times in water cold enough to give me brain freeze (aka icecream headache). Completed those rolls and avoided swimming -maybe this is the way to learn skills punishment upon failure-. Cheers Ulli >From: Kirk Olsen >To: paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net >Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cold Water Gasp >Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 12:34:20 -0500 > >Just catching up after a week on the road... > >At 10:54 PM 11/15/01 -0600, Larry Koenig wrote: > > >The "gasp" I've never experienced. > >I've experienced the "gasp". My canoe partner and I tipped over in probably 34 degree >water. We hadn't been paddling hard and were not dressed for immersion. I was in high school at the time and had no extra insulation. The river we were on was a slow flowing river >about 35 feet wide. I leaned over to pick up some trash... > >The feeling was very similar to having the wind knocked out of you. With the added joy >of needing to swim, a minimal distance, in that condition. > >I have no interest in a repeat experience. > >The gasp, hypothermia to the point of convulsive shivering and dementia, blacking out from dehydration. Hopefully I'm smarter now that I have experience.... > >kirk > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed >here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire >responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. >Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net >Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Assuming it is possible, how is "habituation" to cold shock relevant to any sea kayaker other than those inadequately dressed for the conditions? Is anyone suggesting that appropriate immersion clothing can not prevent cold shock? If not, then much of this discussion beyond dangers and prevention becomes moot. What's the point of "habituating" to cold shock if you normally wear appropriate immersion clothing that prevents it? Craig ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ulli Hoeger" <uhoeger_at_hotmail.com> To: <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 5:01 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cold Water Gasp > Hi, > > >From memory I recall that cold shock/gasp reflex can't be prevented by > the usual cold water clothing (wet- or drysuit), unless a additional > spray hood is worn (feature of real survival suits). Cold shock with > related symptoms prevents coordinated action for up to several minutes, > the best reason to wear a pfd to survive this period. After cold shock > is over, one benefits from immersion gear since hypothermia is delayed. > I got this information from a seminar here in our university, held this > spring by a guy who does his research on cold water immersion topics > (offshore industry is one of the main sponsors of his program). > > However, the inital response to cold water immersion is different with > every individual. Frequent exposure gets the individual habituated, i.e. > cold shock last shorter time. Paddlers who frequently roll and practice > in cold water get this habituation. Likely they slip unnoticable into > this status of higher cold water readiness, since sane people start > learning and practicing skills in warmer water and graduate over time to > cold water conditions. Longer breaks in practice schedulle and > habituation can be lost. > > So far I only practiced a few times in water cold enough to give me brain > freeze (aka icecream headache). Completed those rolls and avoided > swimming -maybe this is the way to learn skills punishment upon failure-. > > Cheers > > Ulli ********************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
PJ Rattenbury wrote: > > Hi All, Could anyone recommend a thermal skull cap/hood to help with > hypothermia? Preferably one that is not as restrictive as the neoprene > divers types. Patagucci makes a fuzzy rubber type cap that I like for winter WW paddling. Urethane rubber on the outside, thin fleece on the inside. Fits well under a helmet. But be careful: the price will make you gasp ;) -- Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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