Steve in Athens, GA, says to try AZ. I used to live there. It will bake the paint off your racks and your car! Besides the fact there is no real salt water there, although there is a river called the SALT. Jolie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Jolie Smilowicz wrote: > Steve in Athens, GA, says to try AZ. I used to live there. It will bake the > paint off your racks and your car! Besides the fact there is no real salt > water there, although there is a river called the SALT. > > Jolie even in "dry" colorado, my racks have started rusting at the end. one is so "swollen" under the plastic that the only way to take the rack apart was cut the end off. 72" now 56" ;-) mark ps i have a Christmas webpage for all my firends to visit, including a photo of my wife on her first canoe trip ... during which i proposed to her ;-) plus a link to more paddling photos!! http://www.dotzen.org/folks/Christmas2001/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Mark Z" <seakayaker_at_dotzen.org> > even in "dry" colorado, my racks have started rusting at the end. one is > so "swollen" under the plastic that the only way to take the rack apart > was cut the end off. 72" now 56" ;-) One "safety" feature about rust is that it takes up 8 times the volume of the iron it replaces. This makes it difficult for rust to hide. You can be sure that you'll never have rust under the coating that is significant enough to cause failure without seeing the consequences first. The uncoated inner surface of the tube must be checked by eye, unfortunately. As long as the inner surface isn't getting scoured clean, the buildup of rust should be detected. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Interesting way of doing the canyon! Those watershed bags are the best, I flipped twice in the canyon and those bags were submerged for 20 minutes without a drop of water inside. Hard to put in a kayak though. Interesting trip report. -- MZ THREE WOMEN RIVER-BOARD GRAND CANYON December 18, 2001 Grand Canyon, AZ On Dec 15, 2001, three women walked out of the Colorado River at Pierce Ferry Bay at the headwaters of Lake Mead, each carrying over 80 pounds of personal gear. The three had just completed the first ever 300 mile traverse of the Colorado River from the base of Glen Canyon Dam to Pierce Ferry using river boards. Thirty nine year old Julie Munger, the trip leader, was ecstatic. "The journey took us 19 days, and we really really had a good time." Ms. Munger is a swiftwater rescue instructor from Colombia, CA. She was joined by 20 year veteran river guide Kelly Kalafatich, 40, of Coloma CA. Ms. Kalafatich was Meryl Streep's stunt double in the popular film "The River Wild". Rebecca Rusch, 33, of Truckee, CA, rounded out the team. Ms. Rusch has participated in 20 Eco Challenge endurance competitions. All three are members of the U.S. Women's Rafting Team. The group had no raft support, but used two Carlson River Boards each. "A river board is 3 foot wide, 5 foot long and 4 inches thick. It's a stiff foam board with hand grips. River boards are United States Coast Guard approved watercraft. We used one board for our Watershed river bags containing all our gear, while the second board provided each of us with 165 pounds of flotation. We followed all the Park's non-commercial river runner permit requirements, including using a canister system to remove all our solid human waste. We even brought along a fire pan and an extra life jacket, as required in the regulations" noted Munger, who went on to note "We received no special consideration from the Park, but found the rangers to be very helpful and friendly." The women wore polypropylene lined wet suits under an outer dry suit along with a life jacket to stay warm in the 48 degree water. Munger said there was a learning curve to their journey. "It took us a little experimenting to sort out how to rig our gear on the river boards without having them turn over when we swam out of eddies. We would let our gear float free in the big rapids, swim through, then catch up with our gear." Munger noted that at the canyon's three biggest rapids, Hance, Granite and Lava, the trio lined their gear down the shore of the rapid, then the women walked back up and floated through the rapids. "I applied for a non-commercial river running permit 10 years ago, and finally received a launch permit from officials at Grand Canyon National Park for the November 28, 2001 launch" Munger added. "We wanted to go in the winter when the trip would be more of an adventure. It was really fun seeing the river from the eyes of a duck." visit my website: http://www.mzuschlag.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 12/19/01 10:02:58 PM, mzuschlag_at_attbi.com writes: << "I applied for a non-commercial river running permit 10 years ago, and finally received a launch permit from officials at Grand Canyon National Park for the November 28, 2001 launch" >> Dose this scare anyone here? I have no desire to follow in her footsteps but there are trips I'd like to do before I'm too old. At this rate I wonder . . . Joan *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
About 7-8 years ago, I did the Colorado through the Grand Canyon on a commercial raft trip. Along the way, we ran into 2 kayakers, a man and his dad doing a private trip that they had been waiting for about 10 years for their permit to come through. The son was 65 years young, I have no idea how old his father was. I thought the trip was rather strenuous and I was still in my 40's then. Steve Holtzman *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, Dec 19, 2001 at 08:57:51PM -0800, Steven A. Holtzman wrote: > About 7-8 years ago, I did the Colorado through the Grand Canyon on a > commercial raft trip. Along the way, we ran into 2 kayakers, a man and his dad > doing a private trip that they had been waiting for about 10 years for their > permit to come through. One of the unfortunate things about the (mis)management of the permit system for the Grand Canyon is that it heavily (very heavily) favors commercial outfitters over private individuals. Roughly the way it works out is that if you're willing to pay a large amount of cash and ride on a motor-powered barge that spews pollutants into the environment, you can go next year. If you are a private boater who wants to kayak, canoe, or raft the river, then you should probably apply for your permit when you buy your first boat, because by the time you're good enough, you may be lucky enough to get one. It's a sickening perversion of our national park system for private gain. (And, as you might guess, any attempt to reform it is met with howls of protest by the commercial outfitters, whose greed knows no bounds.) ---Rsk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 07:21 AM 12/20/01 -0500, Rich Kulawiec wrote: >On Wed, Dec 19, 2001 at 08:57:51PM -0800, Steven A. Holtzman wrote: > > About 7-8 years ago, I did the Colorado through the Grand Canyon on a > > commercial raft trip. Along the way, we ran into 2 kayakers, a man and > his dad > > doing a private trip that they had been waiting for about 10 years for > their > > permit to come through. > >One of the unfortunate things about the (mis)management of the permit >system for the Grand Canyon is that it heavily (very heavily) favors >commercial outfitters over private individuals. > >Roughly the way it works out is that if you're willing to pay a large >amount of cash and ride on a motor-powered barge that spews pollutants >into the environment, you can go next year. If you are a private boater >who wants to kayak, canoe, or raft the river, then you should probably >apply for your permit when you buy your first boat, because by the time >you're good enough, you may be lucky enough to get one. > >It's a sickening perversion of our national park system for private gain. >(And, as you might guess, any attempt to reform it is met with howls of >protest by the commercial outfitters, whose greed knows no bounds.) You were doing so well until that last sentence fragment. While I don't have a huge amount of experience with commercial outfitters, my general impression has been that most are not in it for the money. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Wild women of the Colorado >Roughly the way it works out is that if you're willing to pay a large >amount of cash and ride on a motor-powered barge that spews pollutants >into the environment, you can go next year. If you are a private boater >who wants to kayak, canoe, or raft the river, then you should probably >apply for your permit when you buy your first boat, because by the time >you're good enough, you may be lucky enough to get one. > >It's a sickening perversion of our national park system for private gain. ---------------- Let's face the truth here. The rafting companies are have as one objective, as businesses, to capture as large a percentage of the annual canyon transit spaces for temselves as possible! The duty of government management is to see that a "FAIR" ratio of public non-profit spaces vs private business spaces are awarded to boaters each year. It is clear that, over the past 20 years, private boaters have been SHUT OUT ! Who can tell us the allocation ratio (public vs private) that is currently used for permit allocation on the Colorado? How many private boaters are currently backed up on the list? How many private requests are sent in each year? Private boaters have NO EFFECTIVE VOICE! Chuck Sutherland *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have run the Grand Canyon part of the Colorado River three times, always with commercial outfitters. I'm willing to pay extra to go when I want, have someone organize and cook the food, and to have guides I know can give me the best possible experience safely. I have never [he said proudly] set foot in a raft in my life. Many of the commercial river runners take kayaks along. And none of my three trips has included a motorized raft. I have always gone with AzRA and cannot speak about anyone else. But I never felt I was with people who were in it for the money when I was with them. The Canyon is a spiritual place and it rubs off on everyone who spends much time there. Yes, they are in it for profit, but compared to the people I've met who are in life for the money, these are not the same people. Most river guides are living much simpler [poorer in dollar terms] lives than I am. And, much like me, they practice their profession because it gives them enough money to live on while doing something that suits their passions. I, however, agree that giving the commercial outfitters the overwhelming preference for permits is not right. some snips from previous conversations that prompted my response: >>One of the unfortunate things about the (mis)management of the permit >>system for the Grand Canyon is that it heavily (very heavily) favors >>commercial outfitters over private individuals. >> >>Roughly the way it works out is that if you're willing to pay a large >>amount of cash and ride on a motor-powered barge that spews pollutants >>into the environment, you can go next year. If you are a private boater >>who wants to kayak, canoe, or raft the river, then you should probably >>apply for your permit when you buy your first boat, because by the time >>you're good enough, you may be lucky enough to get one. >> >>It's a sickening perversion of our national park system for private gain. >>(And, as you might guess, any attempt to reform it is met with howls of >>protest by the commercial outfitters, whose greed knows no bounds.) > >You were doing so well until that last sentence fragment. While I don't >have a huge amount of experience with commercial outfitters, my general >impression has been that most are not in it for the money. > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Yep, the problem, or symptom, if you will, is a reduction of liberties, and is not caused by greed but by government legislation. We also have to keep an eye on the disease and even the cause. The disease is environmentalism. Environmentalists see the world in a fragile balance threatened by the cancerous growth of human population. They believe that without the rapid growth of government control and rapid reduction of human liberities our world will soon be permenantly damaged. Every government reaches a point where the taxation and invaisive government control is unacceptable to the people. It has been found that war is the greatest force to rally a people around their government, but recently there has been some discussion as to whether an external threat other than war might not work even better. Imagine if the very threat to our well being was our liberty. What greater reason could there be for the reduction of our liberty, and the expansion of invaisive government control? Knowing the disease and cause of these symptoms of our world in flux can positively affect the way we vote, but in the end, all we can really do is treat the symptom until we die of the disease. For my part, I'm going to take up fiddling. -- Mike McNally mmcnally3_at_prodigy.net A bit of talcum Is always walcum -- Ogden Nash *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, Dec 21, 2001 at 02:29:08PM -0600, Mike McNally wrote: > The disease is environmentalism. Environmentalists see the world in a > fragile balance threatened by the cancerous growth of human population. > They believe that without the rapid growth of government control and > rapid reduction of human liberities our world will soon be permenantly > damaged. Huh...Please produce a statement (with referenced URL) wherein any environmental organization has stated that they advocate "rapid reduction of human liberities [sic]". I've never seen any such thing from any environmental organization, and I'm reasonably well acquainted with many of their policy statements. (I have, on the other hand, seen statements from some environmental organizations, or groups within environmental organizations, stating that population control is either desirable or necessary. They're right, of course, but they're up against an incredible amount of ignorance, much of it championed by entrenched religious bureaucracies, e.g. the Catholic church and their idiotic, hypocritical positions against birth control and abortion. Duh!) ---Rsk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 12/21/01 5:31:15 PM, mmcnally3_at_prodigy.net writes: << The disease is environmentalism. Environmentalists see the world in a fragile balance threatened by the cancerous growth of human population. They believe that without the rapid growth of government control and rapid reduction of human liberties our world will soon be permanently damaged. >> Statements like this are unfortunate. It may be that some people generalize this broadly but I'd bet just about everyone on this list sees them self as some kind of environmentalist. For me the reason I'm in a kayak is environmentalism of a kind. I really do want to get into some of the places so limited that it takes years to get there, like Yellowstone, which I want to do a several day horseback trip through. I regret the need to place limits but even a fairly mindless glance at the situation is alarming. What alarms me even more is that there is no access to the vast a majority of public waterways in the Chesapeake Bay area, where I live. This is due to people with the money to buy the shore own it and there is no provision made for public access. There is no way to get to long portions of the Bay. The Potomac River is almost as bad from Washington to the mouth of the river. Parts of the river are available only to paddlers willing to do 20 or better mile trips to get to some spots and that is after a hugely long drive to the Virginia side of the river which has only one crossing below Washington all the way to the mouth which is about 100 miles. The vast majority of the shore is in private or government hands and not accessible to the public. Without the few publicly owned ramps there would be no access. Do I resent government intervention to keep the Potomac open to boaters? I've never done the Grand Canyon and don't intend to. I don't paddle places on my own that have the potential for danger that it has. I suspect I lack the skills for that. I'm not the slightest be afraid to take a horse into the back country of Yellowstone. I have the skills for that trip. I know my limitations but I have sure seem folks who don't out on the water and on horses. I don't want the government "protecting me" but I don't want to see the kinds of reactions public pressure can easily result in when people die getting in over their skill levels in high profile places like the canyon. What can so easily happen is that access is totally withdrawn. If permits are by camp site or number of boats, I'd expect more people get onto the river with tours than privately simply because tours use fewer facilities for a larger number of people at any one time. They also don't mess up the facilities and are less likely to need rescues so call on the resources of the agencies involved. Do I want parks limited? I can answer that only case by case. Any sweeping generalization rarely comes close to what I feel. I don't want money to buy what little is left of the wild in the world, but I'm not hopeful. Joan Spinner *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 11:23:32AM -0500, John Fereira wrote: > >It's a sickening perversion of our national park system for private gain. > >(And, as you might guess, any attempt to reform it is met with howls of > >protest by the commercial outfitters, whose greed knows no bounds.) > > You were doing so well until that last sentence fragment. While I don't > have a huge amount of experience with commercial outfitters, my general > impression has been that most are not in it for the money. There's little doubt that many of the *guides* aren't in it for the money. I know folks who have worked the rivers for years in West Virginia, Colorado, and other places, and all of them do it for the love of the river. There is no place they'd rather be, nothing they'd rather be doing, and most of them barely scrape by. The same, however, cannot be said of the companies which employ them, and which, in the specific case of the Grand Canyon, have acted in concert with the NPS to maximize revenue at the cost of *everything* else. There's been years of discussion about this in a bunch of places; one place to look is http://www.gcpba.org, though it's certainly not the only one. The picture that emerges after reading through there (and the referenced pages and sites and documents) is that the commercial outfitters exert the overwhelmingly majority of the political power necessary to effectively control access to the river: or to put it another way, they have enough clout to cause NPS regulations to reflect their wishes. This is not to say that commercial trips are entirely bad and should be discontinued. (*I* take commercial trips about once a year.) It is to say that commercial concerns should be not the sole, overiding determination of how precious natural resources are used. But as in so many things, principles go out the window when profit comes in. ---Rsk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark Z writes: > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Jolie Smilowicz wrote: > >> Steve in Athens, GA, says to try AZ. I used to live there. It will bake the >> paint off your racks and your car! Besides the fact there is no real salt >> water there, although there is a river called the SALT. >> >> Jolie > > even in "dry" colorado, my racks have started rusting at the end. one is > so "swollen" under the plastic that the only way to take the rack apart > was cut the end off. 72" now 56" ;-) > > mark Part of the problem is that changes in atmospheric pressure can transport humid air inside the bars if they are less than perfectly sealed. Once inside, the moisture does not leave easily. Even one of my plugged bars rusted after the seal broke between the plug and the wall of the tube. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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