Kevin Whilden" <kevin_at_yourplanetearth.org> wrote: [Re: choice of bootie material:] > I like the latex booties because I have dinosaur-sized feet, and the snug > fit of the latex is completely necessary for me to then get my foot into a > neoprene sock or bootie. I also don't like the concept of having wrinkles > in the goretex sock, which could cause a hot spot if you had to do any > serious walking in the drysuit (has anyone with a goretex sock noticed > this?). I have. And, I would implicate Kokatat, at least in part, for that, because the Goretex booties come way oversize. I have not walked around much on dry land in the drysuit, but if I did, I am certain I would get blisters. If I were to order a drysuit from Kokatat again, I'd be adamant about the size of the booties. Sized correctly, I think they would be OK. Dinosaur feet? Kevin, you are a throwback! -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Lloyd wrote: [Re: Kokatat Drysuit, and his other choice:] > I take it the zippers need a bit of TLC. Not bad at all. Just a little lubricant, rubbed in very well so sand will not stick to any blobs of excess. > I guess I'm still of two minds on the Goretex vs non-Goretex. On the one hand, > Goretex will provide a dryer end user, but at a horrendous price. It will also > wear out quicker. Additionally, for a Canadian, a custom measured and fit suit > isn't the easiest, non expensive way to go. I had a lot of back channel info on > cheaper breathable alternatives from other countries. So, I need to make a > decision. I've always been happy with a Farmer John and breathable paddling > jacket combo for spring and summer, and once I heal up, I can go back to that. I > still need to replace my Sympatex jacket that delaminated, so might go to the > Bomber brand. Then for a drysuit, Whites make a new unit called the Propulsion > with a great fabric called Quadraflex I believe. It is strictly for cold, heavy > weather paddling, which is what I want. URL is: > > <http://www.whitespaddlesports.com/> > > Actual drysuit: > > http://www.whitespaddlesports.com/products/7.php First, you may find after you are "healed up" that those tissues are still susceptible to infection from long-term immersion in body-temp water. A good argument for a drysuit all year round, in the cold waters you paddle. Second, I am ... very ... skeptical of non-Goretex breathable waterproof materials. Not a knock on Whites at all, but, consider that Gore has been refining their breathables for over 20 years. And, Kokatat stands behind their stuff to the max, so a Kokatat Goretex drysuit is something you can expect to get a lot of use out of. I also have a couple Sympatex garments, and they do not perform as well as Goretex. Doug, considering all the wild and crazy things you do, maybe you should approach Kokatat for some sort of "pro" deal ... or would that compromise your free spirit? <grin> -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> > I guess I'm still of two minds on the Goretex vs > > non-Goretex. On the one hand, > > Goretex will provide a dryer end user, but at a > > horrendous price. It will also > > wear out quicker. I have been trying to stay out of this since I usually start an argument when I say this. So against my better judgement I will put forward this opinion. Let me start by saying that I suspect that Goretex's perceived effectiveness can be in any of the following categories: 1. Folks it actually well works for. 2. Folks who rationalize that it works well for them because they spent a bunch of money on it or because "everyone says it is better, so it must be". 3. Folks who it actually doesn't work well for. 4. Folks who rationalize that it doesn't work well for them because they balk at the cost. It's effectiveness probably also depends to a great extent on the conditions it is used under and the design of the garment. I have personally been disappointed with every Goretex garment that I have owned. Even without factoring in the substantial cost, I just haven't found it to really offer a real advantage in severe conditions. For regular use like a jacket, pants, or whatever, a well designed properly fitting garment doesn't need breathable fabric. With proper layers underneath to wick the moisture away until it is evaporated out the neck hole, pit zips, or whatever it seems unneccesary. For a dry suit, I never found the breathable fabric to help much either. I wind up wet anyway, only I am more likely to feel wet and cold with the breathable fabric. With the cheaper non-breathable fabric I usually feel wet only when I take it off at the end of the day. So even if I am a little drier (not dry) with Goretex, what good is that if I feel wetter and colder. I suspect that one of the problems with Goretex is that it can't really work when the outer side of it is covered (by a wet PFD and a spray skirt for example). I suspect it also does not really breathe when the outer layer is soaking wet. So in those conditions it works as well as the cheap stuff at best. At worst it manages to breathe enough to carry some heat away, but not enough to keep you dry. I should say that much of the use I put my drysuits to was in a rainy whitewater paddling situation. You may use it in dryer conditions or you may not sweat as much as I do or whatever. So I am not saying it is a waste of money for everyone, just that it isn't effective for everyone in all conditions and in some cases may not be even as good as a nonbreathable fabric. Pete Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion! http://greetings.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
With discussions about "Gore-Tex", it's important to specify the fabric being referenced. As has already been pointed out, "Gore-Tex" has evolved over the years. Current fabrics certainly offer different performance then something used years ago. Craig ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Staehling" <staehpj1_at_yahoo.com> To: <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 12:26 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Doug's Ultimate Drysuit > > I suspect that one of the problems with Goretex is > that it can't really work when the outer side of it is > covered (by a wet PFD and a spray skirt for example). > I suspect it also does not really breathe when the > outer layer is soaking wet. snip *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Staehling" <staehpj1_at_yahoo.com> To: <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> > I have been trying to stay out of this since I usually > start an argument when I say this. So against my > better judgement I will put forward this opinion. Me, too :-) > For a dry suit, I never found the breathable fabric to > help much either. I wind up wet anyway, only I am > more likely to feel wet and cold with the breathable > fabric. With the cheaper non-breathable fabric I > usually feel wet only when I take it off at the end of > the day. So even if I am a little drier (not dry) > with Goretex, what good is that if I feel wetter and > colder. I have never owned a Goretex dry suit but my experience with a coated drysuit is pretty much as that of Pete. Air/wind penetration in a closed coated dry suit is absolutely zero. In a Goretex suit some wind does penetrate (Goretex never claims absolute zero wind impermeability) and some of your warmed up air as well (none leaves a coated suit). > > I suspect that one of the problems with Goretex is > that it can't really work when the outer side of it is > covered (by a wet PFD and a spray skirt for example). > I suspect it also does not really breathe when the > outer layer is soaking wet. So in those conditions it > works as well as the cheap stuff at best. At worst it > manages to breathe enough to carry some heat away, but > not enough to keep you dry. The heat loss is pretty much right from the experience of paddlers who are using Goretex and those using coated. You are colder in Goretex. I have a 12 year old coated suit. If and when I think it has truly given up the ghost, I probably would splurge on Goretex. Its advantage is that while you are moving around on land before and after paddling, moisture buildup is less and moisture will escape. Your insulation layers will be drier underneath and you won't have such a need to completely strip off those layers as you do at the end of the day with a coated suit. When paddling and wearing a sprayskirt and a PFD and having your lower body in the non breathing area of a cockpit, not much of your moisture will escape. Some will through what isn't covered of your upper body and, of course, your arms. On the other hand, if one is speaking of plain ole paddling jackets, then I think breathable is better than fully coated. I always hated my paddling jacket. Moisture built up but unlike a dry suit with latex gaskets everywhere, neoprene wrist and neck seals and a bungee or neoprene waist let cold air penetrate the paddling jacket and make that wet insulation feel cold. With breatheable waterproof paddling jackets that moisture buildup is a lot less and even if air penetrates through neoprene seals it won't make you feel quite as chilled. I still feel that somewhere in the near future we will see some perfect blend of a non-confining insulated wet suit made of some material that is richly warm in 38 degree water, breatheable and waterproof in its structure and fitted with decent seals at the neck and wrists that will keep 99.9% of water out but be able to be opened and not be as awfully confining and uncomfortable as latex gaskets. Some of the ingredients of this are already around. Witness those sealcoated Daarlex gaskets used in some paddling jackets that fit snugger than neoprene gaskets and don't absorb water that will then trickle down to your armpits when you raise your arm. Some of the watersports Polartec and equivalent are getting close to at least stopping water penetration directly through the material. Now all they have to do is make it thick enough to provide insulation for 38 degree water while being stretchy and comfortable enough to fit like a kid glove. ralph diaz *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug If it is absolutely essential that your wound not get wet I don't think you can trust the so called "dry" suit to do this for you. My experience has been there will be a little leakage into a dry suit that will end up at your feet or ankles. Mine isn't Gore-Tex so even if I've not been immersed the so-called "dry" suit still gets pretty moist inside. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
--- Matt Broze <mkayaks_at_oz.net> wrote: > Doug > If it is absolutely essential that your wound not > get wet I don't think you > can trust the so called "dry" suit to do this for > you. My experience has > been there will be a little leakage into a dry suit > that will end up at your > feet or ankles. Mine isn't Gore-Tex so even if I've > not been immersed the > so-called "dry" suit still gets pretty moist inside. I agree that you can't count on being dry in a dry suit (Goretex or not) unless you don't sweat. On the other hand, I doubt that "leakage" is the problem in most cases. I haven't found leakage to occur to a significant degree in the suits that I have owned. This even if I took a long swim. I am pretty sure that most of what pools at the feet and ankles is sweat that winds up settling there. I guess it really doesn't matter how it gets there though, you are wet either way. Pete Staehling Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion! http://greetings.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I swim in my dry-suit regularly; it's waterproof. However, it's not an antiperspirant. In my breathable dry-suit, I never have pooling sweat. I do find typical sweat spots, which could only be more widespread in a non-breathable dry-suit. The key advantage to a breathable dry-suit is that I can wear it over a wind range of air temperatures and still be comfortable with a fully sealed suit--50F water combined with 65-70F air temperature is still comfortable. I guess one advantage to a non-breathable dry-suit is that regular rotational cooling is a great way to work on your roll! Craig ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Staehling" <staehpj1_at_yahoo.com> To: "Paddlewise" <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 6:48 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Doug's Ultimate Drysuit > I agree that you can't count on being dry in a dry > suit (Goretex or not) unless you don't sweat. snip *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Kruger said: <snip> Second, I am ... very ... skeptical of non-Goretex breathable waterproof materials. Not a knock on Whites at all, but, consider that Gore has been refining their breathables for over 20 years. And, Kokatat stands behind their stuff to the max, so a Kokatat Goretex drysuit is something you can expect to get a lot of use out of. --------------- Dave, The suit I'm getting from Whites isn't a breathable fabric. They gave up on that option last year or so. Too many returns. They do have an absolutely excellent reputation for diving drysuits. The Quadraflex fabric is bombproof. This stuff is Navy Seal quality and the suit battle worthy. I tend to be rather hard on my equipment. I have no doubt the Kokatat "evolution" fabric is top notch, as would be Kokatat's overall drysuit quality, but I do know that the Whites' base material will outlast Goretex 3 to 1. You said: <snip> Doug, considering all the wild and crazy things you do, maybe you should approach Kokatat for some sort of "pro" deal ... or would that compromise your free spirit? <grin> ------------- Dave, the deal has been done for me today with respect to the Whites' Propulsion drysuit: all the bells and whistles, custom fit, short acquisition time, immediate warranty follow-up, and opportunity to give feedback. So, a "pro" deal locally, free advertising for the company (i.e. "Late breaking news: kayaker survives night in Juan de Fuca Strait in local manufacture's drysuit"), and support given to my local retail store in their suppport of a local company they need to court more. And, I'm buying "made in Canada." With the money I'm saving by compromising my free spirit with Whites and Ocean River Sports, I'm buying a Spirit sail for my Nordkapp. Given the non-breathable Propulsion drysuit now, I need the sail to provide me with non-perspiring propulsion! One stroke forward, two strokes back -- I guess. Thanks for all the feedback and support on this decision I had to make. You guys on PW are the best. Sail info at: <http://www.spiritsails.com/> No financial connection to any of the above, though I do test their products to the max, and sometimes their patience! Doug *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Craig MacKinnon" <elroca_at_earthlink.net> > In my breathable dry-suit, I never have pooling sweat. I do > find typical sweat spots, which could only be more widespread in a > non-breathable dry-suit. My experience exactly. My GoreTex dry suit remains unpuddled, while my non-breathable Kokatat drytop gets puddles in the elbows and drizzles out the wrist gaskets when I open them. Those puddles are much more annoying than the dampness in the drysuit. While I won't disagree with Ralph's assestment on the cooling effect of GoreTex (though I don't find it objectionable in practice - a life threatening situation may change that perspective), I will disagree with his statement about the wind resistance. I find I can inflate the dry suit and it stays inflated. When I swim, it doesn't bubble. And I spent a lot of time in the Great White North's winter winds wearing GoreTex jackets without worrying about wind getting through. Even my Activent (GoreLite :-) jacket is windproof while more breathable. YMMV. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
ralph diaz said: <snip> I have never owned a Goretex dry suit but my experience with a coated drysuit is pretty much as that of Pete. Air/wind penetration in a closed coated dry suit is absolutely zero. In a Goretex suit some wind does penetrate (Goretex never claims absolute zero wind impermeability) and some of your warmed up air as well (none leaves a coated suit). <snip> ----------------- This was part of the reason I went with non-Goretex in the end. I also phoned a friend who paddles every week, 12 months a year. He has both a Goretex and a non- breathable drysuit. In winter, he doesn't use the Gortex Kokatat Meridian. For warmer spring paddles he does. Best of both worlds. My eventual aim would be to have both too. However, I don't want to get divorced right now. Also, I do remember my Storm Island trip. The breathable Sympatex was terrible -- like wet matte coldly clinging to your skin. I had to wear my old nylon Wildwasser paddling jacket over top just to survive. Matt said: Doug, it is absolutely essential that your wound not get wet I don't think you can trust the so called "dry" suit to do this for you. My experience has been there will be a little leakage into a dry suit that will end up at your feet or ankles. Mine isn't Gore-Tex so even if I've not been immersed the so-called "dry" suit still gets pretty moist inside. Matt, Nice to hear from you. I'll be lurking more when I get back to work next week. Jolie recommended a shrink wrap product for skin protection, so I'll make some inquiries. My experience with Goretex is similar to ralphs -- namely that a good insulation layer transports moisture to the outside layer, where it dissipates with Goretex, but remains at the surface with non- breathable. I'm not sure where the leakage comes from. Neck seal? Anyway, I won't know until I give it a try. Doug *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Lloyd" <dougl_at_islandnet.com> To: <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Doug's Ultimate Drysuit > This was part of the reason I went with non-Goretex in the end. I also > phoned a friend who paddles every week, 12 months a year. He has both a > Goretex and a non- breathable drysuit. In winter, he doesn't use the > Gortex Kokatat Meridian. For warmer spring paddles he does. Best of > both worlds. My eventual aim would be to have both too. However, I don't > want to get divorced right now. Also, I do remember my Storm Island > trip. The breathable Sympatex was terrible -- like wet matte coldly > clinging to your skin. I had to wear my old nylon Wildwasser paddling > jacket over top just to survive. My experience in paddling in a coated non-breathing dry suit along with people in Goretex ones was that at lunch or other breaks they had to put something on over their Goretex suits where I did not. But that was in exceedingly cold air conditions in the high teens with wind blowing. Obviously above the high 40 degrees Fahrenheit air temperature and higher, I would be less comfortable than they would be during breaks. ralph diaz *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
As a newbe to paddling I have followed this discussion with a lot of interest, 'cause the next step I want to take is winter paddling, maybe not next year but it will come! My experience with Gortex and wind comes from skiing, in Jackson Hole, Wyoming over the last 15 years, in VERY COLD and WINDY conditions. You do work up a sweat coming down through a fresh snow fall. I've found that in dry (not snowing) conditions, my Gortex (REI) shell, with fleece (depending on temp, sometimes it's everything I own) underneath and windy conditions, I don't really notice any heat loss, and stay dry (except my back when I'm carrying a pack and then it's very damp under thew pack). Having said that, in snowy conditions with the same layering it seems that I'm in a sauna. The guys in the ski shops say to wash the shell, I've done that and not noticed any real difference. The next step was to apply a treatment to the outer layer, sorta like a water repellent to the nylon outer shell (the Gortex is under the outer shell) and it didn't work any better. I'm wondering just what a "Dry" suit under a PFD, with your lower half isolated below your spray skirt would be like. From the discussion here, I would be reluctant to lay out big $ for a Gortex dry suit without trying it in actual conditions. And I can't imagine any mfg. giving me a chance to test drive a dry suit long enough to get a feel for the product. Please keep up the discussion, I'm learning a lot. John Blackburn *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
--- John Blackburn <digipixs_at_erols.com> wrote: > The guys in > the ski shops say to wash the shell, I've done that > and not noticed any real > difference. The next step was to apply a treatment > to the outer layer, sorta > like a water repellent to the nylon outer shell (the > Gortex is under the outer > shell) and it didn't work any better. I would be very skeptical about applying anything to the outside unless the fabric manufacturer recommended it. I remember a few years ago reading about another option. There was discussion (on rbp I think) about ironing goretex to reactivate it. I do not remember the particulars. I am not recommending it, but it was supposed to be recommended by someone at Gore and Assoc. or one of the garment manufacturers (I forget which). I wouldn't do this with out checking with Gore or the garment manufacturer. Anyone know anything about this or did I dream it? Pete Staehling Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion! http://greetings.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I've heard about the Durable Water Repellent (DWR) being activated by heat and ironing seems to be the preferred method since putting the whole suit through the dryer risks damage to the latex seals. -----Original Message----- From: Peter I remember a few years ago reading about another option. There was discussion (on rbp I think) about ironing goretex to reactivate it. I do not remember the particulars. I am not recommending it, but it was supposed to be recommended by someone at Gore and Assoc. or one of the garment manufacturers (I forget which). I wouldn't do this with out checking with Gore or the garment manufacturer. Anyone know anything about this or did I dream it? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph Diaz wrote: > - ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Doug Lloyd" <dougl_at_islandnet.com> > > > This was part of the reason I went with non-Goretex in the end. I also > > phoned a friend who paddles every week, 12 months a year. He has both a > > Goretex and a non- breathable drysuit. In winter, he doesn't use the > > Gortex Kokatat Meridian. For warmer spring paddles he does. Best of > > both worlds. My eventual aim would be to have both too. However, I don't > > want to get divorced right now. Also, I do remember my Storm Island > > trip. The breathable Sympatex was terrible -- like wet matte coldly > > clinging to your skin. I had to wear my old nylon Wildwasser paddling > > jacket over top just to survive. > > My experience in paddling in a coated non-breathing dry suit along with > people in Goretex ones was that at lunch or other breaks they had to put > something on over their Goretex suits where I did not. But that was in > exceedingly cold air conditions in the high teens with wind blowing. > Obviously above the high 40 degrees Fahrenheit air temperature and higher, > I would be less comfortable than they would be during breaks. I'm having trouble with the problem as it is being described: that Goretex allows more evaporative cooling than nonbreathables ... and that is a "cause" of insufficient insulation, prompting Ralph's buddies to don another layer when on a lunch break, and Doug to layer on a nonbreathable. Wouldn't Ralph's buddies be pretty durn cold if they went into the water under those conditions (air temp in the teens; water temp must be in the 30's or 40's MAX). Shouldn't they have on some more fleece while in their boats, so if they do go in, their survival time will be acceptable? Or, is the claim being made that immersion in 30-40 F water would cause less heat loss than standing around in air in the teens (albeit windy)? I think if I were cold while paddling in my Goretex drysuit, I'd put on some more fleece ... and when the day was over, the fleece would be relatively dry so I could wear it around camp. Don't most folks who do extended trips using fully coated suits have to use two sets of insulation: a "wet" set for on the water and a "dry" set for camp? Seems like the Goretex makes that unnecessary, though I do concede that there is more evaporative heat loss. I just keep moving, and my internal furnace takes care of that ... or, I put on another layer. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Kruger" <dkruger_at_pacifier.com> To: "Paddlewise" <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 12:01 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Doug's Ultimate Drysuit > > Seems like the Goretex makes that unnecessary, though I do concede that there > is more evaporative heat loss. I just keep moving, and my internal furnace > takes care of that ... or, I put on another layer. Most reports of being cold in a breathable dry-suit refer to standing on shore; this parallels my experience. The cooling effect while standing on shore in a burped breathable dry-suit can be significant; I've eliminated the teeth chattering cold chill by simply breaking the neck seal, allowing the suit to fill with air and then replacing the neck seal to trap air inside the suit; body heat warms the trapped air, the suit expands and the cold chill is gone; this technique is simple, effective and does not involve any additional non-breathable layers. Craig *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Kruger wrote: > > I think if I were cold while paddling in my Goretex drysuit, I'd put on some > more fleece ... and when the day was over, the fleece would be relatively dry > so I could wear it around camp. That's something I like about my G-T suit. At the end of the day, instead of standing on the shore in the cold stripping off wet fleece and struggling into dry, while trying not to offend the waterside residents, I just take off the drysuit, put on my shoes, and go on with life. -- Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> > > - ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Doug Lloyd" <dougl_at_islandnet.com> > > > Also, I do remember my Storm Island > > > trip. The breathable Sympatex was terrible -- like wet matte coldly > > > clinging to your skin. I had to wear my old nylon Wildwasser paddling > > > jacket over top just to survive. > > Ralph wrote: > > My experience in paddling in a coated non-breathing dry suit along with > > people in Goretex ones was that at lunch or other breaks they had to put > > something on over their Goretex suits where I did not. But that was in > > exceedingly cold air conditions in the high teens with wind blowing. > > Obviously above the high 40 degrees Fahrenheit air temperature and higher, > > I would be less comfortable than they would be during breaks. > > I'm having trouble with the problem as it is being described: that Goretex > allows more evaporative cooling than nonbreathables ... and that is a "cause" > of insufficient insulation, prompting Ralph's buddies to don another layer when > on a lunch break, and Doug to layer on a nonbreathable. Dave, Doug was talking about a Sympathex BREATHABLE garment. So, there is no contradiction between his experience and the one I relate. ralph *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
ralph diaz wrote: > > > - ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Doug Lloyd" <dougl_at_islandnet.com> > > > > Also, I do remember my Storm Island > > > > trip. The breathable Sympatex was terrible -- like wet matte coldly > > > > clinging to your skin. I had to wear my old nylon Wildwasser paddling > > > > jacket over top just to survive. > Ralph wrote: > > > My experience in paddling in a coated non-breathing dry suit along with > > > people in Goretex ones was that at lunch or other breaks they had to put > > > something on over their Goretex suits where I did not. But that was in > > > exceedingly cold air conditions in the high teens with wind blowing. And then Dave wrote: > > I'm having trouble with the problem as it is being described: that > Goretex > > allows more evaporative cooling than nonbreathables ... and that is a > "cause" > > of insufficient insulation, prompting Ralph's buddies to don another layer > when > > on a lunch break, and Doug to layer on a nonbreathable. > > Dave, > > Doug was talking about a Sympathex BREATHABLE garment. So, there is no > contradiction between his experience and the one I relate. I recognize that. I think you'll see that word in the excerpt of his post I included. And, in fact, there is no doubt that his Sympatex layer's breathability contributed to his being cold. The Wildwasser layer (nonbreathable) helped keep him warm by limiting transpiration through his outer layers. I think you snipped the critical part of my post. I'm going to repeat its thrust: With equivalent fleece underneath, a breathable outside layer will run cooler than a non-breathable outer layer. (I think we all agree on that.) The solution I advocate is: put on another layer underneath the Goretex. You'll warm up ... and at the end of the day, you'll have relatively dry fleece. I think it is misguided to blame the Goretex for inappropriate choice of underlying insulation. Doug could have put on more insulation under his Sympatex, if he had the room (Doug is a big guy, and fills his drysuit, I bet), and so could Ralph's paddling companions. For me, the principal advantage of the Goretex is this: With a nonbreathable drysuit, your fleece gets saturated during the day, making it of limited value while dodging around camp unless you wear your drysuit while cooking, making a fire, seting up shelter, etc. Hence, a "dry" set of garments for camp, and a "wet" set for paddling. With a breathable outer layer, your fleece is damp at the end of the day, but not saturated, so you can wear it ... sans drysuit ... while moving around and doing camp chores en route to bed, and it will be dry, ready for the next day. Less fleece to tote, and it will be drier, on and off the water. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I wonder if different body types respond differently (novel idea, huh?) to breathable/non-breathable materials? I personally can't wear any non-breathable clothing when exercising. If I do it seems my body "panics" and starts sweating profusely. Not surprisingly, the same thing happens when I visit really humid places. I think my body just doesn't like elevated humidity. Perhaps that's why people's experiences vary so widely with Gore-tex? -John Fox (in dry Colorado, where I still sweat more than I like! :-) p.s. Don't think I mentioned it, but someone on the list (I won't mention names in case this is taboo) convinced me to try out whitewater kayaking this summer instead of sea kayaking on lakes. (I had been asking about the used Edisto's for learning on?) Totally made sense. I hadn't thought that there'd be a lot of crossover. So I'll learn some whitewater for the year I have left here, and then pick up sea-kayaking when I'm closer to the sea. Thanks for everyone's help on this! Now I just have to wait for the thaw! :-) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "ralph diaz" <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com> To: "Chuck Holst" <cholst_at_bitstream.net>; <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 11:31 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Doug's Ultimate Drysuit snip > no worry about whether the outer DWR > (durable water repellent) is shedding enough water to allow the Goretex to > breathe snip This raises an objection often heard in regard to Gore-Tex--and I think someone else raised this point also: that Gore-Tex can not breath when wet. According to this link: http://www.gore-tex.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ContentGView?storeId=10001 &catalogId=10001&langId=-1&productId=10408 this Gore-Tex fabric can breath when worn underwater. Anyone have any comments? Also, I think someone raised the issue of windproofness? This link addresses that issue and others: http://www.gore-tex.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ContentGView?storeId=10001 &catalogId=10001&langId=-1&productId=10255 Craig *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "ralph diaz" <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com> > 2) While in your > boat under PFD, sprayskirt and with your lower half inside your non breating > boat, only some of your body will be getting the benefit of the > breathability of Goretex (your arms and some of you chest and back that > protrudes from under the PFD). I wouldn't downplay the effectiveness of GoreTex inside the kayak. Cold air is very dry* (the colder, the drier) and the inside of the kayak will initially be dry. It can absorb moisture as long as the relative humidity is less that 100% (the lower the better). As the interior warms up from your body heat, the amount of water absorbed will increase, since the air's absorption potential increases with temperature. I've noticed that my legs tend to stay quite dry compared to my upper body when paddling in GoreTex. The lack of work done by the leg muscles certainly contributes, but the legs end up in the almost ideal situation of being at rest while warm, letting the GoreTex do its job. The upper body gets quite wet from perspiration and requires rest to dry out. My feet, on the other hand, inside the latex booties, do get damp - noticibly more so than my legs. I'd also echo Dave's concern that those who are cold while resting are underinsulated. I find that if I stop paddling for, say, a lunch break, I want to open the suit or even peel the top off and wrap it around my middle (assuming a windless area, of course). It has to be very windy and cold for me to remain suited up on shore. But then, I'm cold acclimatatized (http://members.rogers.com:81/michaeldaly2/winterPage.htm :-) Mike * Exceptions do exist - the high arctic is often at 100% relative humidity for long periods during the spring & summer even though the temps can be near freezing. Trans-arctic adventurers suffer from this - it's so damp that wounds don't heal! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "John Fox" <jsfox_at_cisco.com> > I wonder if different body types respond differently (novel > idea, huh?) to breathable/non-breathable materials? > > I personally can't wear any non-breathable clothing when > exercising. I agree with this in terms of non-breathable clothing such as a coated raincoat worn while exercising. I find them clammy with almost that same panic feeling you expressed. I think what happens in that situation, at least for me, is that air flowing through the neck and under and up the bottom hem of the garment, chills the moisture that is being built up underneath and gets extremely uncomfortable. In such instances I almost rather be wet by the rain through an uncoated fabric. That's what I dislike about non-breathing coated paddling jackets. With a non-breathable coated dry suit, there is not that interchange and invasion of air since you are completely sealed in. Humidity/moisture buildup is not exposed to cold air and your undergarments remain warm. You also seem to reach what I term "a relative happy level of humidity" underneath in which perspiration slows. Some people do sweat more and some people have more tolerance than others. Goretex may be the best all around way to go but coated also works well for all the reasons stated by various people in this current interchange. There are trade offs in both cases that have also been discussed. ralph diaz *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
ralph diaz wrote: > > You also seem to reach what I term "a relative happy level of humidity" One of the best descriptions of kayaking I've seen today. Thanks, Ralph. -- Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter Staehling <staehpj1_at_yahoo.com> wrote: > - --- John Blackburn <digipixs_at_erols.com> wrote: > > The guys in the ski shops say to wash the shell, I've done that > > and not noticed any real difference.The next step was to apply a treatment > > to the outer layer, sorta > > like a water repellent to the nylon outer shell (the > > Gortex is under the outer shell) and it didn't work any better. > > I would be very skeptical about applying anything to > the outside unless the fabric manufacturer recommended > it. > > I remember a few years ago reading about another > option. There was discussion (on rbp I think) about > ironing goretex to reactivate it. I do not remember > the particulars. I am not recommending it, but it was > supposed to be recommended by someone at Gore and > Assoc. or one of the garment manufacturers (I forget > which). I wouldn't do this with out checking with > Gore or the garment manufacturer. > > Anyone know anything about this or did I dream it? No, you did not dream it, Peter. A few yeats back, Kokatat (and Gore, I assume) was recommending a wash-in DWR treatment, which was activated when you ironed the garment (from the inside, IIRC). Nowadays, I believe Kokatat (and Gore) recommend Revivex, which is a spray-on DWR treatment, applied to a ... moist ... Goretex garment, activated by running the garment through the drier. At least as of a year ago that's what Kokatat recommended. BTW, I've done this on a couple paddle jackets, and it did not seem to hurt the latex gaskets. YMMV. I've used both types of DWR treatment, and Revivex definitely works better at restoring the DWR. However, as John Blackburn found out, the success varies quite a bit. I find that my Goretex works a lot better at keeping me dry when the DWR is intact. Example: on a couple long (two week) tours in 1998, I wore an old Goretex paddle jacket on which the DWR had pretty much worn out. Every blinking day we had continuous moderate drizzles to full-on rainstorms. And, G-D it, I was cold, and wet inside the Goretex. Leakage? No, my own moisture -- not as able to escape because the outer surface of the Goretex was always wet. I think with an intact DWR coating, I'd have been a much happier camper. I think Goretex is good stuff, but I agree with Ralph Diaz that it is no panacea. A well-made drysuit from ... nonbreathable ... material is very comparable, and for the difference in money you can get a lot of other gear. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John, You could always rent one. There are a number of outfitters here in the Puget Sound area that rent Gortex drysuits. Here in our normal off season weather (40-50F air and water temps, cloudy, maybe windy) I actually use the Gortex suit, while the coated one (I used to have one) was way to much like paddling in a sauna. I have had no problems with leakage in extended rescue practices or otherwise swimming or wading while practicing or teaching. I usually wear the equivalent of a medium or expedition weight polypro layer under the suit, and I have had the experience of becoming chilled during the lunch break. I think that it must be because of evaporative cooling, and I can't imagine evaporative cooling taking place under water. Anyway, I have mostly stayed comfortable while swimming and paddling, and I am prepared to put on an extra layer during the lunch stops. At least now I can bear to wear the thing, where I could rarely bear to wear the coated drysuit. My first Gortex suit lasted through 7 years of hard use, and I could have made it go more. The material on the new one seems to be wearing even better. For sea kayaking, with the extended energy output, I wouldn't get anything but a breathable drysuit. I can't overstate the tremendous difference in comfort to me. My humble opinion only. Regards, Dave Carlson John Blackburn wrote: > . I'm wondering just what a "Dry" suit > under a PFD, with your lower half isolated below your spray skirt would be > like. From the discussion here, I would be reluctant to lay out big $ for a > Gortex dry suit without trying it in actual conditions. And I can't imagine > any mfg. giving me a chance to test drive a dry suit long enough to get a feel > for the product. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "David Carlson" >> For sea kayaking, with the extended energy output, I wouldn't get anything but a breathable drysuit. I can't overstate the tremendous difference in comfort to me. Gotta ditto on Dave's opinion. What we do for evaporative cooling is pack a XXL coated rain coat to throw on at rest stops and breaks. Goes over everything, has a hood and you can find 'em at a Thrift store for a bargain. Good emergency gear, as well. steve (who wished he would of packed his GT drysuit to Sweetwater!) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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