Hi P'wisers-- I found a nifty table on the USCG website describing the survival times at certain water temperatures. http://www.uscg.mil/hq/gm/mse4/pfdcold.htm I wanted to make a similar table for general kayaking use so novices can have some idea of what clothing is appropriate at each water temperature. In addition, the original table only described time until [Exhaustion or Unconsciousness] and [Expected Time of Survival]. What folks really need to know isn't "how long will I live," or, "How soon will I die", but "How soon will I lose the motor function required for a rescue". I added a [Loss of Dexterity] column, and roughed in the numbers: http://www.kayakforum.com/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/guille/wiki.pl?Hypothermia_Table I'd appreciate any feedback--do you think the numbers are appropriate, or should some of them be revised up or down? It probably needs a disclaimer that the numbers aren't absolute. I'm intending a good, general guide for novices who have no idea how to dress for the water. Another thing it says is "if you don't have a drysuit, and the water is 40*F, don't go out". Thanks, Shawn Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>I'd appreciate any feedback--do you think the numbers are appropriate, >or should some of them be revised up or down? Shawn, I don't have the qualifications to do any editing for you, but I have a request. I'm sure you intend to do this, but just in case.... I'd like to request that once all the editing is complete, that you re-publish the document so that we can look at a clean copy and learn from it, and have it as a reference tool. If Kirk permits, it would also be a handy thing to have on the web-site. Thanks for doing that work! Rick - Poquoson, VA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
We had a hefty female paddler begin to go hypothermic two weekends ago off Hunting Island, SC. She was wearing a cotton t shirt and shorts on a 65 degree day with 59 degree water. She was only in the water 2 minutes before getting on the beach. The paddler she was with didn't have any extra clothes and the wind was 20 MPH. We have a club that needs a LOT of help with safety. Only three wet suits that day out of 15 paddlers. I cannot seem to convince them of the need. The woman told me she was perfectly fine "until she got wet" and so a wetsuit isn't necessary. There is no hope some days. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shawn Baker" <shawnkayak_at_yahoo.com> To: <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 2:01 PM Subject: [Paddlewise] Hypothermia Table > Hi P'wisers-- > > I found a nifty table on the USCG website describing the survival times > at certain water temperatures. > > http://www.uscg.mil/hq/gm/mse4/pfdcold.htm *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
--- jfarrelly5_at_comcast.net wrote: > The woman told > me she was perfectly fine > "until she got wet" and so a wetsuit isn't > necessary. Her statement may not be all that far off the mark if she was close enough to shore to be on dry land in 2 minutes for the whole trip. On the other hand, not having some warm dry clothes along is a MAJOR mistake on all but the hottest days. Would having some pile and a paddling jacket in the boat have been sufficient in this case? (It sounds like it would have to me.) If she got hypothermic I assume that it was from the exposure to the air after being wet as much as or more than the two minutes in the water. Right? How bad was her hypothermia? Not too bad I hope. Pete Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Shawn writes: Another thing it says is "if you don't have a drysuit, and the water is 40*F, don't go out". ------------------------------------------ It would be interesting to know how a wetsuit or drysuit affects the number. For example, if no protection gets you exhaustion or unconsciousness within 30 to 60 minutes in 40 to 50 degree water, how would a wetsuit or drysuit change those numbers? jim holman *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Jim Holman" <siguiriya_at_attbi.com> > if no protection gets you exhaustion or unconsciousness within > 30 to 60 minutes in 40 to 50 degree water, how would a wetsuit or drysuit > change those numbers? Too many variable to determine easily. A good dry suit will allow indefinite exposure, as will a heavy wetsuit. Ice diving is a popular activity for some. They'll dive through a hole in the ice and stay relatively comfortable for the duration of their dive. A 3mm farmer john, on the other hand, will buy you time, but not a lot. Fitness level is also a parameter, as is attitude and approach: On the Discovery channel a few nights ago, they showed a program on immersion hypothermia. A doctor that specializes in the topic dropped into a hole in the ice wearing winter clothes (GoreTex jacket, fleece, that sort of thing) and showed how to survive. The first thing to do is control your breathing. The initial reaction is to gasp or pant heavily and repeatedly. If you go under like this, you could ingest ice water and drown (he stated this emphatically, in spite of what others have debated here and on other forums). Once your breathing is under control, you can proceed with trying to rescue yourself. This approach will extend your time in the water (he lasted an hour - he let his sleeves freeze to the ice so as to prevent his slipping under if he became unconcious). His dexterity was severely hampered early on. He also had a demonstration of what happens when snowmobilers go thru the ice (a popular sport for the intelligence challenged. Since the warm winter kept ice off the lakes this year, fewer snowmobilers drowned. OTOH, they died hitting stationary objects, like trees and telephone poles, in significant numbers). He wore a regular snowmobile suit, while another person wore a survival-type snowmobile suit. The latter features closed-cell foam insulation like a PFD, rather than fiber fill. The combination of warmth with unsaturated floatation and allowed the wearer to swim, IIRC, 100 meters or so and get out, while the doc in the regular suit couldn't move after a while and had trouble floating. BTW, why "wear a flotation suit" is better than "stay off the thin ice and open water you idiot" is beyond me. And yes, many snowmobilers think that crossing open water is cool. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Shawn Baker <shawnkayak_at_yahoo.com> wrote: > I found a nifty table on the USCG website describing the survival times > at certain water temperatures. > > http://www.uscg.mil/hq/gm/mse4/pfdcold.htm > > I wanted to make a similar table for general kayaking use so novices > can have some idea of what clothing is appropriate at each water > temperature. [snip] > > I added a [Loss of Dexterity] column, and roughed in the numbers: > > http://www.kayakforum.com/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/guille/wiki.pl?Hypothermia_Table > > I'd appreciate any feedback--do you think the numbers are appropriate, > or should some of them be revised up or down? No big problems with the dexterity estimates except that I think you are too conservative in the 70-80 F bracket. I remember as a kid body surfing for hours in 70F water and never suffering any loss of dexterity. Admittedly, I was working hard (and, I was 12-14 years old). Of course, I would not wear any type of wet suit protection (not even a shorty) on 70-80 F water. That's balmy! -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>From: "Michael Daly" <michaeldaly_at_rogers.com> >Too many variable to determine easily. A good dry suit will allow >indefinite >exposure, as will a heavy wetsuit. Hi folks I have a problem with this statement, and I assume we all still talking paddling clothing here. Don't get a wrong impression of safety. Wearing a dry suit while paddling will still leaves the possiblity of hypothermia. Don't get or give people a false sense of security. A "good"(?) dry suit will definitley NOT give you indefinite exposure time! Suits worn for ice diving or cold water diving are not comparable with the ones one would wear for recreational on the water sports. A drysuit suitable for paddling is NOT a immersion or survival suit, like the ones you may find on ocean going vessels or drilling rigs as evacuation equipment (cold water diving suits are close to them). Those are made from thick neoprene (still most of them are dry suits). They are heavy, bulky, and warm, but also the last thing you want to wear for going paddling. Even in those suits survival time in cold water is by no means indefinite, just a heck lot longer than with any other outfit. A paddling, sailing, or surfing dry suit is nothing else than a jumpsuit made from waterproof fabric with latex gaskets around the 5 holes were various body parts stick out. If it works, it will keep you dry, nothing else! That's it! Warm keeps you whatever you wear underneath it. And yes, with such a dry suit you will still have to dress for water temperature and not for air temperature to be safe. Most of use wear various layers of fleece and tech-fabric under it, looking for a solution somewhere between staying warm in the water for some time while swimming, but not to warm while being dry and paddling. It's a compromise, most likely leaning towards the dry site of the equation. Therefore hypothermia can and will get to you also in such a outfit. Later than it would hit you when just wearing fleece or cotton, and maybe later than wearing a wet suit, but at one point it will get you. No matter what you wear, you have to get out of the water as fast as possible, and out of the wet clothing and into dry stuff ASAP. My 0.02$ Ulli P.S. There are publications from a guy in England who tested some of the combinations(swim vs wet vs dry suit) for the Navy. Don't remember his name right now, but he is big in hypothermia research. However, his data shows that a drysuit is not that much better than a wetsuit, but as far as I remember it wasn't clear what people wore under it and what kind of wet suit it was (sure not a 3mm farmer john). Run a medline database search with the keywords hpothermia, cold shock , immersion and his name will pop up several times. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Ulli Hoeger" <uhoeger_at_hotmail.com> > >From: "Michael Daly" <michaeldaly_at_rogers.com> > >Too many variable to determine easily. A good dry suit will allow > >indefinite exposure, as will a heavy wetsuit. > > I have a problem with this statement, and I assume we all still talking > paddling clothing here. Don't get a wrong impression of safety. Wearing a > dry suit while paddling will still leaves the possiblity of hypothermia. > Don't get or give people a false sense of security. > > A "good"(?) dry suit will definitley NOT give you indefinite exposure time! I was talking in terms of scuba gear, but nonetheless, a good dry suit _will_ give you indefinite exposure time. This assumes that you have the correct level of insulation under the dry suit. Even the neoprene dry suits that divers wear require insulation inside for ice diving. A single layer of 7mm neoprene will not keep you warm at 0C. The big difference between a dry suit and a wet suit for a diver is comfort, not warmth. Both can be made to insulate sufficiently, but almost everyone who tries a drysuit prefers them. It is true that there are fools out there that wear dry suits without insulation even where it is warranted (and suffer the consequences - I believe someone on Paddlewise reported such an incedent off the US Atlantic coast a year or two ago). I think that Shawn's table is trying to stress the importance of insulation in dealing with water temperatures. If we want to get picky about indefinite exposure times, the table that Shawn presented (based on the source he gave) showed indefinite exposure for water above 80F. This is not correct, strictly speaking. It assumes that you are fit and fed enough to continue to generate heat. In fact, you can suffer from hypothermia at 80F - this is only 2F above the body core temperature at which that vast majority of us would die. I wouldn't want to be stuck in the water so long that that would happen - we're talking days here (consider the time spent in water by tropical shipwreck survivors - famous case of a US Navy WWII sinking). Let's assume that we will be referring to reasonable uses of gear and temperature. Shawn's table does show insulation requirements and the intent should be to be conservative. Perhaps he could extend his footnote to include comments that insulation levels are personal and some may need more than others for the same level of comfort/survivability. For example, unlike Dave, who is comfortable in 70-80F water, I wear a 3mm FJ in the pool during the winter sessions. I find it a tad cool for a couple of hours of rolling and rescue practice - YMMV. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ulli wrote: A paddling, sailing, or surfing dry suit is nothing else than a jumpsuit made from waterproof fabric with latex gaskets around the 5 holes were various body parts stick out. If it works, it will keep you dry, nothing else! That's it! I remember well the bright, warm summer day I took an unsuspicious friend out for extended bracing and reentry practice. As he commonly paddled without PFD or skirt, let alone immersion apparrel, I wanted him not to be guiled by the warm summer sky's of Washington, but to face the realities of the 49 degree water just inches below his seat. After the third capsize I noted the increasing desperation of each reentry and called off the session. His skin chalk white and arms rattling like an ox running through bamboo reinforced his appetite for quality dry aparrel and the basic safety gear. Needing to reach him on the matter of safety, I was forced to do a live demo because my preaching was becoming a tiresome chant. I agree with Ulli that paddlers dry/wet aparrel are not meant for indefinite immersion. Rather, they enable the bottom dweller an extended time out of the cockpit prior to reentry. How much time is the subject at hand, however, lengthy immersion also requires quality hand, foot and headwear, as each digit needs to function well in an effort to assist one back into the boat. Additionally, non breathable dry suits can be quite chilly in the water, as sweat soaked clothing vectors the ocean's cold straight to the skin where immediate contact is made with the skin and drysuit. The addition of layers helps with this but higher air temps can make that uncomfortable. 2 cents- Rob *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 4/4/2002 9:49:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, siguiriya_at_attbi.com writes: > It would be interesting to know how a wetsuit or drysuit affects the number. > For example, if no protection gets you exhaustion or unconsciousness within > 30 to 60 minutes in 40 to 50 degree water, how would a wetsuit or drysuit > change those numbers? > The U.S. Navy and Coast Guard each received windfall money for cold water equipment studies in the mid-80s. The Coasties did a nice job with a comparison between insulated coveralls (boat crew, "Mustang"-type suits), neoprene wet suits, and dry suits. Very little has changed from the drysuits and wetsuits we had for flying (Navy) over cold water. So the data should be good today. Will try to get it posted in an easy to use manner, but it's '80s data: hard copy. A Navy comparison of dry and wet suits is interesting because of some similarities to kayaking: the Navy judged in-aircraft performance as well as in-water performance in their evaluations. The theory was that a good way to have to test the suit's in-water performance was by having heat stroke while flying. Neither good, therefore compromises. A brief recap: The conclusions of the USCG study are that 1. loose fitting, "wet" , foam insulated protective garments (e.g., a float coat or suit similar to the Mustang) allow lower skin temperatures and faster rectal temperature cooling rates in rough seas than in calm seas because [of] flushing ..... 2. tight fitting, "wet" foam insulated [wet suits] [offer the same protetion in rough or calm seas] 3. "dry" foam insulated garments provide the best protection ..... {and now it gets interesting/jcm} 4. in calm seas, where subjects [are motionless and there is no flushing], the coveralls and the wetsuits provide approximately the same protection; in rough seas, ... the full wetsuit provides significantly better protection than the coveralls. The "coverall" was a Stearns IFS-580, the grandfather of current Mustang suits, from the sound of it. Coast Guard boat crews wore (and wear) them. The Navy article is a study from Approach, the Naval Safety Center monthly. It talks about an operational requirement for a suit that would protect personnel immersed in 45 F water for two hours "without permanent physiological impairment." Basically, a contest between a wet suit and a dry suit, but they have the same coveralls in there, too. A few points --- - core cooling for a shorty wetsuit was one and one half times that of a full wet suit - significantly, core cooling was not significantly different between wet and dry suits, but skin temps dropped faster from water contact, and made the subjects uncomfortable and stressed I'm trying to construct a bar graph essentially as it was published. Scale is 1-7, measuring cooling rate in calm vs. rough; this is data for rough seas 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Standard flight suit (control) +++++++++++++++++++++ 6.46 Loose float coat ++++++++++++++ 4.32 Aviation coveralls ++++++++++++ 3.24 Boatcrew coveralls +++++++++++++ 3.53 Wet shorty ++++++++ 2.40 Full wet suit +++++++ 1.64 Dry suit +++ 0.88 Survival suit ++ 0.74 Nothing absolute here, but some interesting comparisons. And some numbers to factor. Couple of notes: "survival" suits are carried for passengers to put on prior to ditching in cold areas. "Boatcrew coveralls" and "aircrew coveralls" are similar to the Mustang insulated but loose suits. Critical numbers for our discussion --- a full wet suit, the thick neoprene suits that are virtually impossible to paddle in, was roughly half of the protection offered by a dry suit. Discount this for the farmer johns we tend to use, and the numbers were a lot more impressive for a drysuit. Another interesting note --- the stress factor of skin discomfort caused by water flushing within a wet suit was actually measured and quantified. It wasn't core (rectal) temp that dropped, but surface temps --- of far less importance in terms of challenge to survival. (Scientific note: when doing these tests, most labs use "indoor-outdoor" thermometers that are actually just instruments used indoors, but with a probe that is run to the outside to measure outdoor temps --- but read inside. Whatever. In these experiments, the probe is placed --- er, "indoors" as far as the tester is concerned, and the readout unit is strapped to his/her shoulder so that the lab people can keep a close eye on core. Been there, done that: no tee shirt.) This information is somewhat counterintuitive at first --- wet suits and dry suits protect the core at roughly equal levels? Yes, the data show that they do. At least for a while. What the data don't show is the lower stress, far less pain and discomfort, and a more optimistic attitude with the test candidates in drysuits. And that transfers to small motor coordination and other factors. Hope this added some harder data to the discussion. If I can get my act together, I'll put this data together in a usable soft copy with all the details and offer it as a service to anyone who wants to publish it in local newsgroups or newsletters. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: <JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com> > [...] Lots of useful, interesting stuff, Jack. > And that transfers to small motor coordination and > other factors. Just a comment on this. I hope no one reads into this that a drysuit will significantly extend dexterity. I've been reading stuff trying to find quantification of dexterity info for Shawn's table (rather than his estimates). While I haven't found anything quantified in terms of time, there are several articles that qualify dexterity with temperature. One key point is that even though the forearm is protected and warm in a drysuit, and the key muscles for the hand are in the forearm, cold hands still lose dexterity in water. There are several factors that contribute to ease of motion in the hand. Joints become stiff, the nerves are affected (loss of sense of touch and therefore ability to sense position, grip etc) and so on. This prevents you from using your hands even though the muscles are warm. The key is - for cold water, you'd still need hand protection, like gloves, to extend your degree of and time of dexterity. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 12:47 PM -0500 4/6/02, Michael Daly wrote: >The key is - for cold water, you'd still need hand protection, like >gloves, to extend your degree of and time of dexterity. Gloves vs Poggies. I was out paddling yesterday in fairly cold air and a stiff wind. My partner was wearing NRS gloves and I was wearing my old CKS pile line poggies. He ended up dumping and we had to get him back in his boat. My hands got cold when I removed them from the poggies and he couldn't get his sprayskirt on with his gloves on. They fit too tight to reasonably take them off and put them back on. While my hands were cold they still functioned, while his were warm they were not that "handy". Any thoughts/comments on appropriate hand protection? Pros/Cons etc. Nick -- Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nick wrote: Any thoughts/comments on appropriate hand protection? Pros/Cons etc. I stopped using pogies when I started using a Greenland style paddle. I then gravitated towards a myriad style dive gloves, and not having liked any of them due to glove surface texture, seam chafing, on/off ease, I settled on a pair of gloves from Kenai, Reno, NV. They are a 2mm neoprene/nylon liner glove with only a slightly grippy surface. Kenai-4890 aircenter cir., reno, nv 89502. They make an "Aleut" version which includes a velcro band on the wrist portion which tightens it to ones garments. I found the velcro too much of a bother, as the "Kenai" was tight enough to limit ingress. Additionally, the seams leak anyway so why bother? The key to the "Kenai" gloves is that I can easily put my spray skirt on and maintain good dexterity for other tasks. I use a tight fitting Bushsport spray skirt on a Nordkapp Jubilee kayak. The stern portion of the cockpit rim is recessed and any loss of manual dexterity is immediately noticed. The waters of Puget Sound range from the high 40's to low 50's year round. The gloves are stretchy and as such, are easy enough to put on, that I did it in 3-4 foot seas on a crossing from Anacortes to Friday Harbor a couple weeks ago. The down side is that they will probably last a couple of seasons at most. They are thin and one spill on slick tidal rocks may tatter them. They cost me $25.00 USD. They also take in water and hands stay wet, though warm. They will fit over the gaskets of my dry suit or dry top, limiting ingress. Hands emerge prunish and soft enough to give a good "swiss army manicure" at the end of the day. I like pogies only as long as I am staying dry and not rolling, sculling or bracing. Extended paddle grip sculling or Pawlata rolling are also mildly inhibited by pogies. (That is my take and paddlers such as Nick, with better technique than I, may report better results.) Of course pogies come in many styles and not just the cordura and pile "limo's" I like so much. I agree with Nick, in that a paddler using pogies, suddenly finding immersed hands will fare better because the hands were kept warm all the while until immersion; as opposed to the person carrying, but not using gloves until needed. My guess is an ungloved/pogied paddler loses dexterity quicker in cold waters because he/she started with hands quite cooler than they would have been were they using pogies/gloves. Therefore, pogies seem to me to be a very good choice in most conditions, especially if you do not like gloves. 2 cents contributed humbly, Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Nick wrote: Any thoughts/comments on appropriate hand protection? Pros/Cons > etc. > >Rob wrote I stopped using pogies when I started using a Greenland style paddle.... I'm just across the water from you Rob and I've gone the other way. I've carried two pairs of neoprene gloves for more then a year. The first pair would come off at lunch, to be replaced with the dry second pair. This worked fine until my recent five day trip up to Nanamio. After both pairs of gloves were wet they could not handle the cold. Luckily for me one of my Kiwi friends had an extra pair of Pogies. Without them I don't think I'd have made it. As soon as I got back I bought a pair for myself. Had an enjoyable trip out to Rum Island, only a quarter mile from the USA (Stewart Island), on Sunday. It was so warm I didn't need either Pogies or gloves. Maybe spring has finally arrived. If you're in these waters, or the area, looking for places to paddle give me a call. I'm in the book. Gordin Warner Victoria BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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