Hi Listers, Since I often paddle on day outings and weigh 170lbs, my P&H Quest rides a bit higher than I'd like unloaded in rough seas. I've been thinking about adding ballast in the form of lead shot sealed in a dry bag anchored just behind the seat. Besides improving stability in rough seas, should also help with my sometimes shaky roll. OK, I know, practice is the best remedy, and I do plenty of that, but let's not make the perfect the enemy of the merely good. I've read the articles/digest, and the comments there have been very instructive. My question to you is how much weight and whether to move the seat to the forward mounted position, which the Quest includes as a design option. Tentative Answers: 50lbs of hardened lead shot in a dry bag and yes, move the seat forward, but thought to get some additional advice before putting this plan to the test. Thanks in advance, John ********************************************************* John S. March, MD, MPH Professor of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences Duke Child and Family Study Center 718 Rutherford Street Durham, NC 27705 919/416-2404 (P); 919/416-2420 (F) Email: jsmarch_at_acpub.duke.edu Website: http://www2.mc.duke.edu/pcaad "I maintain there is much more wonder in science than in pseudoscience. And in addition, to whatever measure this term has any meaning, science has the additional virtue, and it is not an inconsiderable one, of being true." --Carl Sagan ********************************************************* *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
writes, " my P&H Quest rides a bit higher than I'd like unloaded in rough seas. I've been thinking about adding ballast in the form of lead shot sealed in a dry bag anchored just behind the seat. (snip) My question to you is how much weight and whether to move the seat to the forward mounted position, which the Quest includes as a design option. Tentative Answers: 50lbs of hardened lead shot in a dry bag" I did this with my old IceFloe by using a Nalgene bottle with 25 lbs. of lead shot. Two wood 1x1s glued behind the seat with some bungee cord kept it stable and in the exact centerline. It was a real pain to deal with that boat on land so whatever you do make sure it easily removable when required and impossible to remove when in use. 25 pounds was OK and I had no option to move my seat. I liked the modification myself. Were I to do it again I'd go the bag route too but I'd establish my weight needs, and then set the lead in epoxy to mold it to the hull to take up minimum space and spread the load out along the centerline to balance it, however unlike a bottle you can't change the weight at will. For a high volume boat 25 pounds behind the seat and 25 pounds in front of the seat would probably give you the performance of one of those punchy clowns; you'd pop upright again without half trying. If you do set the shot in epoxy in a bag, please use a release agent on your hull. I can't imagine how upset one could become finding that installation permanent. Kevin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> My question to you is how much weight and whether to move the seat to the > forward mounted position, which the Quest includes as a design option. It is somewhat sad to have to resort to using ballast to overcome what are ultimately design flaws of a kayak for the particular user. Adding weight slows you down (increased wetted surface for one). Imagine asking a racer if he would mind carrying an extra 50 lbs. If you are going to add weight to a boat it might be nicer to make the hull stronger by adding a few layers of glass. There is something weird about the builder working hard to shave a few pounds and then have the user add 50 lbs of ballast. If you are trying to get a more stable boat, it might be nice to add an inch to the width rather than add ballast. But accepting that the purchase decisions have been made and the situation is not perceived as acceptable for the unloaded boat... Where the ballast should go (except at the bottom of the boat :) ) is difficult to say without being familiar with the specifics of the boat in question. The designer might have had a specific center of buoyancy in mind for a "trimmed" boat. That may or may not have been under the lap of the paddler (the approx center of gravity of the paddler) Perhaps the design "trimmed" boat had the center of buoyancy elsewhere depending on the designer's understanding of the typical loading of the kayak. Or perhaps the designer did not know where the center of buoyancy was. A guess would be to center the ballast under the vertical plane of the anterior surface of the abdomen. To be more precise, you could experiment by putting yourself in the unloaded boat in still water and moving the ballast while looking at a carpenter's level placed along the keel line. Most kayaks are designed with "trim" being the state that has the mid-keel line horizontal. As for the amount of ballast, the answer almost has to be the "least that you can get away with" *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I think it should be borne in mind if this discussion goes any further, that the people who first designed & built these boats over 2000 years ago, and certainly tailored their own boat to their weight, height, purpose etc. used ballast (rocks). There is nothing odd, aesthetically incorrect (except in the users mind) or innovative about the practice. Nor does it necessarily reflect on the purchaser of the kayak and suitability for the task at hand. It does mean that the boat isn't as heavy that day and could benefit from the added weight to restore the normal handling characteristics the user desires. Were it loaded with camping gear no one would think twice about it. I'm lucky, I have 3, soon to be 4 kayaks, all for different purposes. When I had only the Icefloe, and couldn't afford another for day play, I only wish I had know enough to use ballast a lot sooner. I would have had a much better time in rough water. Kevin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I've heard several times that people are using "lead shot". I've not done it, and have never bought lead shot, but I can't help thinking that it might be cheaper to use lead ingots. You can get them at almost any plumbing supply house that also carries cast iron pipe (IE: not a kitchen and bath showroom type of place). They come in 5 lb ingots, and have a List price of somewhere around $9.60 per ingot. Deduct whatever discount your local supply house will give "homeowners". I'm able to get it for about $5.10, but thats extreme. I'm using it for molding .58 cal. musket balls for black powder target shooting. The ingot is about 1-1/2 inches high and about 4 inches in circumference -- just guessing, I don't have one handy to measure. There is no packaging, and the ingots are "rough" (dents, scratches, etc). They are intended to be put in a melting pot and then poured into joints with lead wool for some applications of cast-iron piping. When I hear "shot", I'm thinking of going to a gun shop and buying large quantities in small packages, at higher costs than the alternative above. Rick - Poquoson, VA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I use water in my sweet old Kevlar composite Arluk 1.8. It rides very high and light if not loaded for camping, and in breaking seas or a good chop that makes for a ride that can be too interesting. I know I have not fastened the water ballast down right and need to work on that. I've used from one - three gallon plastic collapsible square water jugs, one in the cockpit in front of my feet, and two in the rear hatch wedged in firmly right behind the seat (behind the bulkhead), with something lightweight, like a sleeping bag in a dry bag. Or sometimes I just put one of those black fabric water bags on the bottom of the cockpit right in front of the seat, and that is enough. Water is easily added, amounts fine tuned, easily disposed of and replenished - and I don't have to carry lead shot up the beach when I unload the boat :-) Diane *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: <Rick.Sylvia_at_ferguson.com> > I've heard several times that people are using "lead shot". I've not done it, > and have never bought lead shot, but I can't help thinking that it might be > cheaper to use lead ingots. I personally wouldn't use lead. While it's nice and dense, it does have some safety and handling issues. Scuba dive shops will carry plastic covered lead weights, though they aren't the cheapest and getting lead in bulk and permanently wrapping it would do the same. I would use water or gear. Water is available at the put in and you can leave it behind when you're done as someone else pointed out. No excessive carrying involved, just the empty containers. Adding to the gear you normally carry could be done by always taking things like a repair kit, survival gear, spare clothes, water purifier etc. This adds weight and security (I end up rescuing others I meet more than myself). My ditty bag and my repair kit are the densest objects - Amie, who prefers a bit of weight in her kayak always grabs those when we paddle together. I would also put the load where the gear is stored - some in the front and some in the rear. This will be closer to touring weight arrangements; you may as well get used to handling the kayak in a realistic configuration. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 01:23 PM 8/19/2002 -0400, you wrote: >I would use water or gear. Water is available at the put in and you can >leave it behind when you're done as someone else pointed out. I would only use water if you have a rigid container that is completely filled and well secured. No sense having the weight shift when you least want it, or sapping your energy getting the water to move back and forth in the boat as you paddle. kirk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
writes: "I use water in my sweet old Kevlar composite Arluk 1.8. (snip) Or sometimes I just put one of those black fabric water bags on the bottom of the cockpit right in front of the seat, and that is enough.Water is easily added, amounts fine tuned, easily disposed of and replenished - and I don't have to carry lead shot up the beach when I unload the boat :-)" I thought I had a great and original idea to fasten a Camelback to the hull ahead of my seat and run the drinking tube up though the sprayskirt. Ballast yes, but more to keep the water cool and keep the CG low. Couple of days later I saw it on some cockpit customizing site, (Kayak fit?) So much for originality but I'm glad to see it does work. Kevin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 09:27 AM 8/19/2002 -0700, knelson_at_captivasoftware.com wrote: >I thought I had a great and original idea to fasten a Camelback to the >hull ahead of my seat and run the drinking tube up though the sprayskirt. >Ballast yes, but more to keep the water cool and keep the CG low. Couple >of days later I saw it on some cockpit customizing site, (Kayak fit?) So >much for originality but I'm glad to see it does work. Even worse you can buy a boat, admitedly an outrigger canoe, with space for the camelback built into the seat pad. http://www.outriggerconnection.com/One_man/Stingray/stingray.html (the photo of the seat pad is a few screens down the page) Kirk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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