Composite and plastic both have their merits. I have some of each in my fleet. I wonder if the white water crowd used to debate over this same topic? When was the last time you saw a glass white water boat? But that's a different animal I suppose. My latest boat purchase is plastic so I'm probably biased. What I have often wondered is why I have never seen an aluminum sea kayak? The toughest, badest power boats on the west coast here are made out of welded aluminum. Folders use it for their framing. Grumman has made aluminum canoes for years. So why not kayaks? Too expensive? Too hard to work with? Corrosion factors? Has anybody ever marketed one? I envision a nice welded, hard chined unit. No issues running that up on the beach..... Steve Davis Victoria *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'd like to hear some thoughts on aluminum as well. Anyone? builders? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- > I'd like to hear some thoughts on aluminum as well. Anyone? builders? Could the lack of Aluminum kayaks be aesthetics? Concerning the club purchase of radios I called West Marine and if you order radios in units of 6 (6,12,18......) they will sell them at the wholesale price. Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> >What I have often wondered is why I have never seen an aluminum sea kayak? >The toughest, badest power boats on the west coast here are made out of >welded aluminum. Folders use it for their framing. Grumman has made aluminum >canoes for years. So why not kayaks? Too expensive? Too hard to work with? >Corrosion factors? Has anybody ever marketed one? I envision a nice welded, >hard chined unit. No issues running that up on the beach..... I imagine putting my ungloved hand on the deck on a hot summer day . . . ouch! I used to do some aluminum fabrication, and thought about the idea. Could be done, I suppose, but there are some tricky curves in a home shop environment -- but then, I don't remember people ever building aluminum canoes at home from scratch, either. Really, I can't answer why it isn't done commercially. There are not a lot of aluminum canoe makers around any more, but one of them is in the next town. I bounced a similar question off a gal that works there, once, and she basically said they hadn't investigated the market, and that kayaks are pretty well out of the market they deal with. I imagine that kayaks might be pretty labor intensive for a short run, as well. So -- tough, yes. They don't call Grummans "ironboats" for nothing . . . Easy and cheap to build? Probably not, unless you have huge investment in tools and dies -- and you still would have difficulty getting the smooth compound curves we're familiar with in both plastic and fiberglass. And, remembering the kind of weights we used to have with ironboats, glass or plastic or wood is probably lighter. -- Wes --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wes Boyd's Kayak Place NEW URL! -- http://www.kayakplace.com Kayaks for Big Guys (And Gals) | Trip Reports | Places To Go | Boats & Gear --------------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
It would seem that a person could use the plans for any of the myriad of stitch-n-glue boats - and use aluminum instead of the plywood - and wirefeed welding for the seams instead of epoxy. AL is very easy to work with fairly normal woodworking tools. Even if you couldn't find a welder willing to (or cheap enough) you can purchase a decent wirefeed unit set up for light (up to 3/16") AL for ~$700. If you built a couple of boats for you and a friend it would seem cost effective. AL stock is not that expensive - for the quantities needed to make a kayak. Learning to put down a decent wirefeed bead isn't magical or difficult. Probably a couple of lessons from the shop where you buy the welder would get you going. The hardest part would seem to be forming the cockpit coaming and hatch openings. But certainly solvable problems I think. Due to the high heat conductance of AL, the temp of the water would pass through the boat more readily. Might be a cold ride in cold water conditions...but in the summer it would be a great A/C unit. Hmmmmm? This is something to seriously consider. I'm anxious to hear from someone about why AL wouldn't be a good choice. I guess I'm also thinking about someone like me (landlocked in WI) - who paddles freshwater. The salt water corrosion issues wouldn't be a concern. Anxious to hear more. Kirk, sorry to hear about the arm. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Chris wrote: > I'd like to hear some thoughts on aluminum as well. Anyone? builders? Not a builder of aluminum boats, but I bet there would be a couple of drawbacks: 1. Heavy (difficult to get required stiffness in a thickness that is light enough to compare with FG boats) 2. Cold (on your tush and knees) 3. Noisy (due to waveslap) Not to mention esthetics - but I guess that's in the eyes of the beholder. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 12:22 PM 2/27/03 -0800, Dave Kruger wrote: >Chris wrote: > > > I'd like to hear some thoughts on aluminum as well. Anyone? builders? > >Not a builder of aluminum boats, but I bet there would be a couple of >drawbacks: > >1. Heavy (difficult to get required stiffness in a thickness that is light >enough to compare with FG boats) >2. Cold (on your tush and knees) >3. Noisy (due to waveslap) My uncle has used an aluminum boat for a long time. It was built in a shipyard in Ft. Bragg, California. It's 65' long and was considered to be top-of-the-line at the time for commercial fishing boats. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John's comment is accurate for larger vessels. We have aluminum many gill net boats here. However, the scaling of a vessel down to our size requirements makes for a skin that would be too flexible for good dent-resistance, if you were to make a yak one of us would want to lift. What works for a 65-foot, beamy commercial fishing vessel does not work so well for a narrow, 17 foot kayak. Different requirements. Different materials. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR -- ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Fereira" <jaf30_at_cornell.edu> > My uncle has used an aluminum boat for a long time. It was built in a > shipyard in Ft. Bragg, California. It's 65' long and was considered to be > top-of-the-line at the time for commercial fishing boats. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> For anyone out there building a boat, please pour something into your > resin and declare a new technology, maybe "Hypersupratuff Dynokinetic > II(R)" or something. > > -Patrick I had high hopes for my NANO CARBON thread. It sounded so Star Trek. It fizzled so fast. Is it too early for a beer? Sitting around with the flu, Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: Melissa Reese >Of course, there are minor drawbacks, including pain (must be naked to >achieve proper "biofusion"), and the fact that you can't get out. On >the other hand, the custom fit is second to none, and you're always >ready to paddle! Must make for an interesting "tandem" boat. Steve Holtzman Southern CA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Shawn said >snipped<: >>>Why not a VB'ed boat with extra glass that is the same weight as the aforementioned hand-laid kayak....much more stiffness _and_ more strength. And only slightly more cost.<<<<<< "Doug Lloyd" dalloyd_at_telus.net responded: >>>>>>>>Yes, that's the current theory, but take two brand new kayaks >>>>>>>>from reputable manufacturers, flip them over so the hulls are >>>>>>>>face up, then grind through the gelcoat to the underlayer of >>>>>>>>glass with a sharp point on both the individual hulls. Bet the >>>>>>>>hand-laid, bit heavier boat will "fuzz" less at the core than >>>>>>>>the "squeezed-out" VB'ed lay-up. Bet you you will penetrate less >>>>>>>>on the hand-laid hull if the kayak is one made by a skilled >>>>>>>>glasser. <Snip><<<<<<<<<<<<<< I think you are both somewhat mixed up about this subject. For a given weight the hand lay-up will be stiffer (because stiffness is mostly a matter of thickness) and also thicker (because glass weighs more for the same volume than resin does). Vacuum bagging can produce a laminate that, depending on the pressure, can produce a laminate that ranges from resin rich to resin starved. The strongest laminate will be the one with just enough resin to fully bond the glass fibers together without any extra resin. Beyond the ideal extra resin will progressively make the laminate more brittle. The extreme being all resin with no glass. Any less than the ideal amount of resin and the bonds between fibers won't be as good and the laminate will rapidly get weaker with additional pressure/less resin. It is better to error slightly resin rich since resin starved hurts strength much more quickly in that direction. Even the best hand laminators can't get close to the ideal resin to glass ratio because if enough extra resin isn't available during the cure when the glass stiffens as the cure starts the expansion of the weave will suck air into the laminate and weaken it. Vacuum-bagging prevents this by holding the laminate compressed under pressure until it is cured so a higher glass ratio is possible. Of course, you will scrape up more glass fibers scratching through the gelcoat of the VB'd hull than the hand laid one. There are a lot more glass fibers packed more densely in the laminate to scrape up. That's what makes a VB'd laminate so much stronger pound for pound and harder to penetrate (unless resin starved). This is different than saying VB is stiffer. In order to get enough stiffness to hold a rigid enough shape to make a kayak the VB'd hull will be heavier (because of the greater density of the glass in the same thickness of laminate). Remember thicker is stiffer. Once you go beyond just stiff enough to prevent folding then VB will be much stronger (meaning less penetration) pound for pound using the same materials (and also much stronger materials can be used with VB that are unsuitable for hand lay-ups). This is because these heavier weave or unidirectional materials won't hold resins well on vertical surfaces without the VB pressure holding it up in place until it cures). >>>>>>>As for Kevlar composites, its slippery nature means the VB'er >>>>>>>better know what they are doing. <<<<<<< As Shawn said, it is harder to hand-lay Kevlar because of the light fabric tending to float on the resin. Also there is the fact that you can't see as well through Kevlar to chase out the air bubbles with hand lay-ups because it doesn't turn clear when wetted out like glass does. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt said: >snip< >I think you are both somewhat mixed up about this subject. For a given weight the hand lay-up will be stiffer (because stiffness is mostly a matter of thickness) and also thicker (because glass weighs more for the same volume than resin does).< Well, I knew I was mixed up, but I didn't know Shawn was -- though I had my suspicions :-) Thanks for jumping in Matt. I think VB'ing is the way to go in most cases. In my case, I've seen less problems with the heavier hand-layup out on the open coast, that's all -- but all things being equal, you are probably correct. But I would like to get two boats, same design, each done to the best each system offers with the VB'ed slightly lighter as advertised, then give both boats the same abuse and see which one proves more durable over the long term. This is not a controlled experiment that is likely to happen, however. It would though, settle things in my mind anyway. Take care Matt. Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug, who is advertising vacuum-bagging as lighter? Certainly not me. I suppose you could make that argument if you have equal strength as the criteria but not if equal stiffness is the criteria. Stiffness could mean less likely to fold (and therefore less likely for a lightweight kayak to be damaged that way) or stiffness could mean more brittle to a blow. Your kayak is strong because it weighs in at 80 pounds or so with all the reinforcing and patches you have done to it over the years. A well build 80 pound vacuum bagged kayak could be way stronger. The catch comes when you are trying to build a 40 pound kayak. Both lay-ups will be more subject to damage but their vulnerabilities to damage will be in different risk of damage situations. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt, et al: I'm just down at mi old ISP trying to clean up old email and notify friends of my new email at telus.net. I'm on the digest version, so I often send posts before I see what the next thread is. Thanks for continuing to clarify. I think I understand what you and Shawn are saying now. I guess some of the confusion comes from the lighter layup schedule plus the VB'd technology. Those are the boats I see damaged on the coast. If i were to order a boay from you, I'd do as you suggest, more glass, VB'ed. BTW, one of my woodworking co-instructors was down at the CD factory the other day. He simply could not believe the operations there. All the workers were wearing street cloths. There was not a spot of dust or a drip of debris on the floor. The VB'ing is a totally clean operation. (My friend gets $15,000.00 for a mission style desk, and wants to get into veneer VB'ing now). Anyway, thanks for keeping it friendly and informative. Please, take me to task on anything I say. Most of the back and forth threads generate lots of good information and clarification. In the case of my observations of kayaks I've seen damaged on the coast (I've done a fair amount of paddling of course, as you have), the kayaks in question were always the lighter ones. God's speed fine sir. Thanks again for the help with the Entrapment article. You have a big heart Matt. Doug Lloyd (going off-line from dougl_at_islandnet.com shortly) Doug Lloyd You said: Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 01:33:28 -0500 From: "Matt" <mkayaks_at_oz.net> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Composite vs. Plastic Info - aluminum? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: "Davis, Stephen G FOR:EX" <Stephen.Davis_at_gems4.gov.bc.ca> > What I have often wondered is why I have never seen an aluminum sea kayak? > The toughest, badest power boats on the west coast here are made out of > welded aluminum. Folders use it for their framing. Grumman has made aluminum > canoes for years. So why not kayaks? Too expensive? Too hard to work with? There *was* a neat homemade aluminum boat in Seakayaker recently, which made me wonder the same things. I would guess there are two problems. One, it would be expensive. That's a lot of cutting, caulking and riveting, especially the blind riveting. Second, and this is speculation, if you did get tossed around or wrapped in the rocks, the boat could bend and trap you inside owing to the ductility of aluminum. Most other boats will bounce back or shatter. -- mike ----------------------------------- Michael Edelman medelman_at_ameritech.net http://www.foldingkayaks.org http://www.findascope.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
After a couple of quick phone calls...some food for thought on the AL kayak idea: Lightweight AL canoes use .040 AL skins. Std AL canoes use 0.50. .050 AL sheet costs between $3 and $5 per sq ft - didn't get a price on .040. .050 AL sheet weighs .72 lbs per sq ft. .040 weighs .57 lbs per sq ft So...going on absolute guesses here....and maybe someone can correct the assumptions but.... Let's say we used 8 panels of AL sheet for the hull and deck - each 12" x 10' long (no idea if this is realistic - but seems like it MIGHT be close??) The weight of the skin only would be between and 45 and 57 lbs depending on thickness. The cost of the skin (materials only) would be between $250 and $400. Not sure if this sheds any light on the subject or not...but FWIW... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The biggest problem with making small craft from aluminum is that under normal circumstances aluminum bends in only one direction at a time, which makes it hard to form complex curves -- unless you stretch it using explosives forming or something similar. Also, aluminum watercraft are typically riveted. That means you need to leave enough room on the inside to get at the seams with a rivet gun. That's one of the main reasons aluminum canoes have such full ends. One manufacturer of racing canoes got around this by welding the bow and stern, which allowed finer lines, but I suspect this method of construction would be much more expensive than fiberglass. It's not just the welding, but the grinding afterward that would make it too expensive for kayaks. The wood and canvas canoes that preceded aluminum canoes actually had finer lines. Their main disadvantages were weight, absorption of water, and maintenance. The aluminum canoe became popular because of its relative lack of maintenance, not because of its paddling qualities. Here in Minnesota, and I suspect around the country, it has been largely replaced by plastic canoes, both Royalex and fiberglass. Grumman sold off their canoe-making business several years ago. Like the aluminum canoe, they are relatively maintenance-free, but like the old wood and canvas canoe, they -- especially the fiberglass ones -- can be shaped with complex curves. Aluminum canoes have a few other disadvantanges as well. They conduct heat -- and cold -- better than plastic, and they are noisy when struck by a paddle, hence the nickname, "boominum" canoe. Aluminum also stick to rocks more easily than plastic. Also, it is not indestructible -- I have seen a few pictures of aluminum canoes wrapped around rocks -- and it is hard to repair. And if you were paddling an aluminum kayak that smashed into rocks, I think you would stand a good chance of being pinned inside. Polyethylene rebounds and fiberglass shatters. Aluminum does neither. Chuck Holst ^_at_^_at_ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Just wanted to mention that alumium makes a wonderful material for framing a kayak. George Dyson illustrated this in his baidarkas and Khatslano is no slouch with it's folders. -- gabriel l romeu ± http://studiofurniture.com Ø http://journalphoto.org ± ± http://kayakoutfitting.org Ø http://furnituresociety.org ± *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Yes WW kayakers debated the issue back then. Most WW kayaks are sort of like a pair of skis. Good for a few years if you're lucky and then buy a new one. Once they had better designs, the cheaper (and generally tougher) plastic river kayaks took over the market. I still have a super tough Kevlar natural Designs Outrage II WW kayak I bought back in 1977. I also have a Dancer XT I got many years later at a bargain price. I much prefer paddling the stiffer faster lighter Kevlar one though. Besides being all scratched up from blows and scrapes down creeks and rivers the only damage to it has been a folded bow in an ender hole (with a deep rock in it that held the bow) and a cut under the foam pillar from some jagged metal below a bridge that would have sliced open a plastic kayak far easier (but it wouldn't have been easily repairable as the composite boat was). No aluminum kayaks that I can recall. Have you ever paddled a Grumman Canoe? Cold and noisy. I also had to stomp the bottom back out after taking one rental down a shallow river once in the 70's. It is about the last (usable) material I'd choose for making a kayak hull. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Friday, February 28, 2003, at 01:13 AM, Matt wrote: > No aluminum kayaks that I can recall. Have you ever paddled a Grumman > Canoe? > Cold and noisy. I also had to stomp the bottom back out after taking > one > rental down a shallow river once in the 70's. It is about the last > (usable) > material I'd choose for making a kayak hull. I'll speak up in defense of the old Grumman canoe, having put a lot of miles in with one myself. They are noisy and cold, but aluminum is a practical material for them. They can be left outside for years with absolutely no degradation. They can handle a huge amount of abuse without complaining. You can run them full speed up onto a beach every time for years without problems. My father dropped a tree on his. It needed to be bent back into shape, but it was and is fine. It once got a crack from some impact, but welded up as good as new. His Grumman is 30 years old and has been stored outside most of that time. It easily has another 30 years of use in it and will probably go on for another hundred. Grumman-style aluminum canoes will never be the "best" canoe for any particular water conditions, but they are decent boats for a wide variety of conditions and they will still be around long after "better" plastic and FRP canoes have died. I'm not about to advocate making an aluminum kayak, but I could see one filling a niche. I doubt they would be cost effective to mass produce, but someone handy with a welder could make a decent kayak that would last for ever. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve said (with snips): >>Composite and plastic both have their merits. I have some of each in my<< The newer plastic sea kayaks are a vast improvement over the older ones. A buddy brought home a hatch cut-out "Frisbee" from Current Designs the other day. This thing is strong and stiff - and that's only from the deck. Another buddy who runs a kayak rental business in Port Hardy has had awesome success with the latest generation of plastic touring kayaks. Mind you, he takes good care of them. Nothing else to do on the North Island in the winter season (unless you like hurricane paddling and HD surfing). He has also had some major damage repaired remarkably well. I couldn't tell where the large repair patch was on one of the repair jobs I viewed (the factory can "weld" in repairs). I still like my heavy SUV Nordkapp. No plastic galling -- just sand, fill, and repaint every few years, good as new. But please don't use old plastic kayaks for planters, as they can and should be recycled. >>What I have often wondered is why I have never seen an aluminium sea kayak?<< There was a home made one featured as a picture, with short bio, in Sea Kayaker once -- I think. I always hated aluminium canoes though, so I imagine kayaks might me similarly cold, and unappealing visually. Wave Length recently announced in an article some new fiberglassing methodology. Sounds like new technologies are always getting applied to kayaks every now and again. I still like hand-laid kayaks, as they tend to be fairly stiff, if a bit heavier than bagged boats. And as far as galling of plastic kayak hulls, aluminium galls badly too. Doug Lloyd Victoria BC ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ "Whatever can be said at all can be said clearly and whatever cannot be said clearly should not be said at all." Ludwig Wittgenstein ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Doug, What makes a hand-laid kayak stiffer than a vacuum-bagged boat? Extra resin. Why not a VB'ed boat with extra glass that is the same weight as the aforementioned hand-laid kayak....much more stiffness _and_ more strength. And only slightly more cost. Resin is more brittle than glass. Resin is much more brittle than Kevlar, diolene, or polyester cloths. If it were practical, I'd VB my wooden hulls...it's highly practical to VB a molded glass hull. I love the Brit's designs, but I don't buy the more-gelcoat-is-better, more-resin-is-better mentality. More cloth is better. Resin is just the matrix for holding the cloth together. :) Shawn >I still like hand-laid kayaks, as they tend to be fairly stiff, if a >bit heavier than bagged boats. And as far as galling of plastic kayak >hulls, aluminium galls badly too. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 8:15 AM -0800 2/28/03, Shawn Baker wrote: > >What makes a hand-laid kayak stiffer than a vacuum-bagged boat? > [SNIP] While we're talking tech, can someone explain some of the new technologies that companies are coming out with. For example, Azul with its "Biofusion" layup. Are they growing skin in there or what? Azul is part of Riot Kayaks, a company not known for much hype in its marketing (ouch, my tongue just hurt my cheek). There is also Eddyline with Modulus Technology, HTP from Prijon, and I am sure many others. For anyone out there building a boat, please pour something into your resin and declare a new technology, maybe "Hypersupratuff Dynokinetic II(R)" or something. -Patrick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Melissa Reese wrote: > On Friday, February 28, 2003, at 10:26:10 AM PST, Patrick Maun wrote: >>For example, Azul with its "Biofusion" layup. Are they growing skin >>in there or what? > > This must have something to do with a new "perfect fit" concept. The > paddler is vacuum bagged directly into the cockpit during layup. Of > course, there are minor drawbacks, including pain (must be naked to > achieve proper "biofusion"), and the fact that you can't get out. On > the other hand, the custom fit is second to none, and you're always > ready to paddle! Does biofusion need to hurt? And what an incentive to learn to roll! -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Everything else being equal a heavier boat should be stronger than a light boat. But, everything else is rarely equal. Because of this weight is a poor indicator of strength. I agree that the more-gelcoat-is-better philosophy is misguided. All more gelcoat does is provide a better looking finish without print through and it acts as an ablative layer that you can grind away at for a while before doing any real structural damage. Otherwise it is just brittle and as such may promote early cracking which may propagate into real damage later on. A careful hand-lay up of high quality materials can be almost as light and strong as vacuum bagging. What causes problems is when the layup is sloppy or glass-mat is used in the layup. This will add stiffness and weight and even strength, but it will not contribute as quickly to strength as it does to the weight. The stiffness will make it brittle. A good quality layup is more labor intensive than a sloppy one so it will cost more. If you want to build cheap, I guess going heavy with materials will be the quickest way to get it strong. Materials cost less than quality labor. Nick On Friday, February 28, 2003, at 11:15 AM, Shawn Baker wrote: > Hi Doug, > > What makes a hand-laid kayak stiffer than a vacuum-bagged boat? > > Extra resin. > > Why not a VB'ed boat with extra glass that is the same weight as the > aforementioned hand-laid kayak....much more stiffness _and_ more > strength. And only slightly more cost. > > Resin is more brittle than glass. Resin is much more brittle than > Kevlar, diolene, or polyester cloths. If it were practical, I'd VB my > wooden hulls...it's highly practical to VB a molded glass hull. > > I love the Brit's designs, but I don't buy the more-gelcoat-is-better, > more-resin-is-better mentality. More cloth is better. Resin is just > the matrix for holding the cloth together. :) > > Shawn > >> I still like hand-laid kayaks, as they tend to be fairly stiff, if a >> bit heavier than bagged boats. And as far as galling of plastic kayak >> hulls, aluminium galls badly too. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Shawn said >snipped<: >>>Why not a VB'ed boat with extra glass that is the same weight as the aforementioned hand-laid kayak....much more stiffness _and_ more strength. And only slightly more cost.<<< Yes, that's the current theory, but take two brand new kayaks from reputable manufacturers, flip them over so the hulls are face up, then grind through the gelcoat to the underlayer of glass with a sharp point on both the individual hulls. Bet the hand-laid, bit heavier boat will "fuzz" less at the core than the "squeezed-out" VB'ed lay-up. Bet you you will penetrate less on the hand-laid hull if the kayak is one made by a skilled glasser. Mongo like more resin. Mongo allowed to like more resin. Mongo buy boats with more resin. Mongo maybe not very intelligent, but Mongo not care what others think. :-) Please don't perform the above test on a retailer's kayaks in full view of the proprietor. :-) As for Kevlar composites, its slippery nature means the VB'er better know what they are doing. Mongo go now. Mongo working much overtime 'cause BC government lay off much workers -- now have to pay much overtime. Mongo's master not very intelligent, but maybe Mongo can buy new boat sooner. Doug Lloyd Victoria BC ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ "Whatever can be said at all can be said clearly and whatever cannot be said clearly should not be said at all." Ludwig Wittgenstein ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
--- Doug Lloyd <dalloyd_at_telus.net> wrote: > Yes, that's the current theory, but take two brand new kayaks from > reputable > manufacturers, flip them over so the hulls are face up, then grind > through > the gelcoat to the underlayer of glass with a sharp point on both the > individual hulls. Bet the hand-laid, bit heavier boat will "fuzz" > less at > the core than the "squeezed-out" VB'ed lay-up. I'll buy that argument.... Perhaps a "happier medium" would be a slightly resin-heavy (as opposed to the deadly 'resin-starved') VB'ed laminate. Barring, of course, a skilled laminator who doesn't soak things with too much resin. > Bet you you will > penetrate > less on the hand-laid hull if the kayak is one made by a skilled > glasser. Even a poor glasser will give you a hull which you can grind on awhile longer...excess resin will pool along the keel! I'll still argue that the resin is harder to grind into if it has glass in it. > Mongo allowed to like more resin. > Mongo buy boats with more resin. > Mongo maybe not very intelligent, but Mongo not care what > others think. :-) :D You're also not all that afraid of heavy kayaks, as past testimony would indicate!! > As for Kevlar composites, its slippery nature means the VB'er better > know what they are doing. But....so must a hand-laminator. Kevlar is less dense than resins, and will float up in a mold and starve itself. > Mongo's master not very > intelligent, but maybe Mongo can buy new boat sooner. What's the latest dream boat--a Foster boat from Seaward with a custom layup? Don't they VB their hulls? ;) (just playing devil's advocate!) All the best, Shawn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Shawn said : >snipped some great comments< > What's the latest dream boat--a Foster boat from Seaward with a custom layup? Don't they VB their hulls? ;) (just playing devil's advocate!) All the best, Shawn< I _don't_ claim any expertise in the area of fibreglass kayak construction (only destruction and modification "theology"). Unlike my Sea Kayaker articles which are well researched, this forum tends to be my dumping ground for flippant commentary and misc. ramblings. Usually, I try to share only what I observe and have experienced or laid witness to, and resultant opinions and "positions." Like you Shawn, I have seen examples of good and bad kayak construction, from both VB'd manufactures (some you would be surprised by to hear about -- no, don't ask, but do think outside of BC) and the hand-lay-up guys. My dream boat would be fairly stiff, with inflexible surfaces and strong impact resistance. I think a well made hand-lay-up kayak is capable of delivering, but I'd add Kevlar to the schedule to offset the bit of excess resin that even the best builder can't squeeze out. This costs more money, and may not be applicable to every paddler depending on intended use. I met up with a local paddler this weekend who just received his custom Foster Legend from Seaward. The Robin Egg Blue deck was flawless and well featured. The neatest little addition was a two to three inch section of deck line that ran past the last deck cleat. The knotted end was tied off to a section of bungee. This allows the paddler to slip their fingers under the line and grab hold of the deck line more easily, due to the "give" in the line from the bungee -- yet the knot will not go any further than the deck cleat (fitting, whatever). The hull was good and stiff, with an expedition lay-up and reinforced with Kevlar (just as I would specify). The overall weight wasn't too bad. Let's just say my appetite was wetted just a wee bit by this middleweight contender. If I had the money, I'd order a kayak with as much high-tech cloth, carbon, etc., as I could, but keep the weight _high_ -- not low...kind of like the Tsunami kayaks. Ultimately, I'd buy a boat based on design, not the methodology employed to build it -- all things being equal. I have a Nordkapp HS now, so the next boat would ideally be something that didn't need a rudder, something that carves a turn, something that has more volume for running whirlpools and tide races, and something that holds more gear for longer excursions while still having a nice "glide", and something with hard chines. I'd love to make an Outer Island, but it wouldn't be sufficiently enough of a change to make it worth while. Do I make sense Shawn? My circumstances in life don't allow me to own a fleet of kayaks like some of the lucky bums on this list. I do have the technology (probably as much as anyone on this list) to design and make my own wooden kayak. I have full access to 10 routers, 5 router tables, cutters galore, 6 tablesaws, a 6", 8" and 20" jointer, a 15", 24" planer, a 36" SCM widebelt sander, a shaper table...well, you get the picture. I could and would love to make a kayak that fits me exactly and incorporates those little features you are hard pressed to do with a manufactured boat, like custom bulkheads that "wrap around" the bilge pump, and such things. One well known Victoria paddler has designed and made a few of his own kayaks (for himself), but it has taken several tries to perfect (more or less) his perfect boat, in terms of performance and design (and mostly paddles a sexy little cut-down CD Slipstream for day trips -- a very sweet boat indeed). This isn't always the answer though, given the prototyping time and energy of creating your own wooden kayak. Now, if Nigel would just grow shorter and wider and get a bit of a gut and some bigger thighs and then design something to fit this new profile, I'd be perfectly set...other than negotiating with the local in-house spending authority of course, who keeps mentioning things like groceries, the kids education funds -- you know how it works eh Shawn? Doubleass Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Patrick Maun" <patrick_at_patrickmaun.com> wrote: >There is also Eddyline with Modulus Technology, Kevlar or fiberglass inside a polycarbonate (Carbonlite 2000*) shell instead of gelcoat >HTP from Prijon, HTP is their acronym for blowmolded polyethylene. Rather than rotomolded, where a bunch of plastic pellets are dropped into a hot, rotating mold, and melted into a boat; blowmolding involves a hot blob of molten plastic inside a cold mold. A blast of hot gas is injected into the blob, and it expands to fill the mold. When the hot plastic hits the cold mold, the plastic cools instantly into a "crystalline" molecular structure, which is much tougher and stiffer than a rotomolded boat which is cooled slower. Milk jugs and polyethylene soda bottles are both made of the same plastic. Milk jugs are made in a fashion similar to rotomoulding. Soda bottles are blowmolded. Couldn't tell you about Azul kayaks, never seen one. Some of them look a little funky to my eye--not that Corran Addison isn't a masterful whitewater kayak designer..I sometimes wonder if most of their focus isn't on the ww kayaks, and they're just trying to cash in on the sea kayak market with Azul. But I could be wrong (and have been before!). Shawn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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