I was thinking today about all this talk of composite vs plastic vs aluminium vs biofusionnewfangledwhatever. My mind was draw back to an old man I once bumped into off Vargas Island about 17 years ago. There was a good sea running that day and a cool wind whistled over the whitecaps. The sky was typically bleak. I pulled alongside, bemused by the somewhat faded canvas of this old guy's Klepper and the brownish brass of the once-bright ferrule. I though _I_was the only one out there that day on a boisterous sea. We exchanged itineraries and experiences as we bobbled around. He'd been paddling the coast, in season and out, for decades. He'd just been up to the Hot Springs for a soak. Been to Alaska and back too in the past, and done some big lakes. He was wearing cowboy-style leather gloves -- you know the kind, tan-colored and darkly-creased around the fingers. The wrist clips were rusted-out. His black Sou-Wester was delaminated, leaving the underlying canvas exposed. The rest of his gear looked pretty dubious too. He did have a compass, hand held type, around his neck. He was definitely an old geezer, as they say. I felt a little guilty -- of what I do not know. My kayak was bright yellow, with a bright yellow surf helmet on the rear deck and a full array of gadgetry. We parted company. I'm sure his kayak had landed safely on many a shore, many more than he would ever be willing to specify to anyone. Silently I wished him many more as he vanished behind, his boat fully buoyant, his vessel fully seaworthy, and his life fully lived. I don't know what all this means. It just seemed like an appropriate reflection. Doug Lloyd Victoria BC ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ "Whatever can be said at all can be said clearly and whatever cannot be said clearly should not be said at all." Ludwig Wittgenstein ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Lloyd" <dalloyd_at_telus.net> > I was thinking today about all this talk of composite vs plastic vs > aluminium vs biofusionnewfangledwhatever. My mind was draw back to an old > man I once bumped into off Vargas Island about 17 years ago. There was a > good sea running that day and a cool wind whistled over the whitecaps. The > sky was typically bleak. I pulled alongside, bemused by the somewhat faded > canvas of this old guy's Klepper and the brownish brass of the once-bright > ferrule. I though _I_was the only one out there that day on a boisterous > sea. We exchanged itineraries and experiences as we bobbled around. He'd > been paddling the coast, in season and out, for decades. SNIPPED > I don't know what all this means. It just seemed like an appropriate > reflection. What it means is that while there are certainly orthodox ways of paddling and perscribed gear, etc. this is not the only way of meeting the challenges. That guy's experience with his old faded Klepper, clothing, etc. worked well for him. Underlying it all for him, is/was extensive knowledge of the sea and how his boat could safely interact with it. He was not being suicidal (any more than you are), he had vast experience to keep himself upright and to handle sea conditions on that coast and those waters. You met him around 1985 and he had probably been paddling solo with that boat for at least 20 years judging by the appearance of its faded blue cotton deck. Imagine the state of the art regarding cold water gear, PFDs, etc back in 1965 when he probably started his adventures. PFDs as we know them did not exist beyond kapok filled huge life jackets. Dry suits? They did not exist certainly not in a paddler-friendly type. Marine radios? Much too big and not all weather for use in a kayak. I remember something Dr. Hans Lindemann said to me when I interviewed him in 1993 for my newsletter and a piece in Sea Kayaker. He seemed happy to see a resurgence in sea kayaking but he felt that many kayakers were venturing out unprepared. "I think people want ot do things with a bang. They go too fast, rah rah. They are suicidal." Regarding his own perilous trip across the Atlantic in a Klepper he said "It is alright to attempt things when you have the experience." Doug, you probably remember this because back a handful of years I brought up Lindemann's comments in defense of you when some messages in PaddleWise were getting on your case for your solo, hairraising paddling episodes. Put it another way: All the proper/best gear in the world in terms of sea kayaking won't be worth squat unless you have real life experiences in using it. On the other hand, lots of experience and sea savvy can extend the margins of safety with less than orthodox gear. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> ----- Original Message ----- ralph diaz at rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > > Put it another way: All the proper/best gear in the world in terms of sea > kayaking won't be worth squat unless you have real life experiences in using > it. On the other hand, lots of experience and sea savvy can extend the > margins of safety with less than orthodox gear. > I'm reminded of two sayings, "All the gear, but no idea", but also, "The sea doesn't care about experience, it will still drown you". Doug and Ralph have both highlighted the value of experience, something we often forget in or pursuit of the latest gadget. I'm a fine one to talk, however, as my list of "toys" grows longer. -- John Kirk-Anderson Banks Peninsula NEW ZEALAND *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thursday, March 6, 2003, at 09:28 AM, ralph diaz wrote: > ... > Put it another way: All the proper/best gear in the world in terms of > sea > kayaking won't be worth squat unless you have real life experiences in > using > it. On the other hand, lots of experience and sea savvy can extend the > margins of safety with less than orthodox gear. Connecticut has recently had a bill proposed in the legislature that would require everyone get "safety certified" before they could use a kayak. While this concept is self-evidently wrong headed to anyone with any experience kayaking, the proposal lets an ignorant legislator feel very holy. In my research to fight the bill several things became evident. 80% of the fatalities in boats nationwide occur when the victim was not wearing a PFD. But if you looked deeper it becomes apparent that the fatality rate is more closely tied to the experience level of the boater. The fatality rate is highest for those with less than 100 hours of experience (about 64/million hours) and drops quickly after 100 hours (22/million hours) and after 500 hours of on-the-water experience, the rate was extremely low (0.0018/million hours). In other words if you put a million beginner boats on the water for 1 hour, it is likely that 64 would die but if you had a billion experienced boaters on the water for the same hour, only 1.3 would die. This data comes form a USCG study done in 1998 called the "National Recreational Boating Survey". This survey was of all boaters, not just kayakers. Gear is good, but experience and wisdom is better. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 3/6/2003 12:08:25 PM Central Standard Time, jka_at_netaccess.co.nz writes: > I'm a fine one to talk, however, as my list of "toys" grows longer. > But then many a fine ol' timer resorts to making boats, paddles, etc.,for a living. if we didn't support them through their infirmity by buying their products, the collected wisdom of their years on the sea, what would become of them? ; ) Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> My mind was draw back to an old > man I once bumped into off Vargas Island about 17 years ago /snip/ Was a pleasure to read. Experience is a big thing, really. It's much better to be experienced in navigation without having GPS than to have one not knowing how to use it. (Or to have one without a solar charger or back-up batteries or back-up compass around the neck). I have just recalled another guy, Timo Noko from Finland. Different approach, but rather interesting. This guy isn't collecting gear, but finds uses to all kinds of modern civilization waste and sub-products, like Pentium computer mini-fan for kerosene stove made of tin can :-), or discounted carbon rods from Soviet military and aerospace left-overs (as frame stringers for old Pouch, made in East Germany era). His advice isn't always easy to follow - some brains and handy-man aptitude are needed :-). Probably he's got more to tell than to listen and got tired of sharing. Klepper Aerius doesn't need much improvement, btw - already been tested over half-a century. Alex. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Gear is good, but experience and wisdom is better. > First let me say that I'm not trolling here or working on any hidden agendas. I understand why you are opposed to kayakers having to be "safety certified" ( I don't like it either). But don't the findings of the "National Recreational Boating Survey" more or less support such a certification? Just what exactly qualifies as "experience." Couldn't the class to become certified be considered as such? The Coast Guard survey is interesting - I'm just trying to digest it's actual implications. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> In my research to fight the bill several things became evident. 80% of the fatalities in boats nationwide occur when the victim was not wearing a PFD. But if you looked deeper it becomes apparent that the fatality rate is more closely tied to the experience level of the boater. >> Maybe the bill could be altered to require a minimum 500 hours of on-water experience before a person can go on the water. ;-) Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
ralph diaz said: >>What it means is that while there are certainly orthodox ways of paddling and perscribed gear, etc. this is not the only way of meeting the challenges. That guy's experience with his old faded Klepper, clothing, etc. worked well for him.<< >snip< Ralph, I've come across a number of these types of guys in the last couple of decades -- usually in Kleppers, often each one has been in a double, alone (using sails very often). I've also had marine service workers, marina owners, an others describe these canvas n' frame elderly adventures, describing said paddlers with lively enthusiasm and admiration. I've also come across elderly couples in Kleppers, still enamoured with each other and the sea. They are almost always "low-tech," well-adjusted, sea-savvy paddlers. They usually, from what I could quickly ascertain, seemed...well...connected with nature in a special way. I don't know how else to put it. I hate to admit it (because I love stiff kayaks so much) but I think the Klepper paddler (Foldboat, Feathercraft, etc.) have a sensation with the rhythm and undulations of the sea that I just don't get to experience. Now don't get going on an evangelical outpouring ralph, about better performance, 'cause I ain't buying into that; it's just that folks in folders seem to enjoy an essential, elemental privilege that hard-shell users miss out on. At least, it seems that way to me. I've also bumped into a few eccentrics over the years too (and unfortunately, novices wearing T-shirts and blue jeans, etc, out on the open coat. I was just reading SK Mag where the editor recounts an interesting encounter with someone that sounded a little more than just eccentric, but wise with the ways of the waterway. It would be interesting to hear from Paddlewisers about some of their more interesting encounters with other paddlers. Doug Lloyd Victoria BC ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ "Whatever can be said at all can be said clearly and whatever cannot be said clearly should not be said at all." Ludwig Wittgenstein ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Lloyd" <dalloyd_at_telus.net> > the sea. They are almost always "low-tech," well-adjusted, sea-savvy > paddlers. They usually, from what I could quickly ascertain, > seemed...well...connected with nature in a special way. I don't know how > else to put it. I hate to admit it (because I love stiff kayaks so much) but > I think the Klepper paddler (Foldboat, Feathercraft, etc.) have a sensation > with the rhythm and undulations of the sea that I just don't get to > experience. Now don't get going on an evangelical outpouring ralph, about > better performance, 'cause I ain't buying into that; it's just that folks in > folders seem to enjoy an essential, elemental privilege that hard-shell > users miss out on. At least, it seems that way to me. Part of it, I think, has to do with the process of assembling the boat. This creates a transition zone between land and the sea. I feel quite different about a day out on the water when I am using a folding kayak that I am assembling on the spot as opposed to a folding one that I have left assembled and pulled from a storage area or cartopped. With the latter it is just another boat; with the former it is something different. When you put together, on the spot, what will take you out on to the briney you do subconsciously start adjusting internally to what lies ahead. You also get closer to your boat since you handle every piece of it before you set out; it's an organic experience. Beyond that other things kick in like greater stability: while nothing is unsinkable/untippable being able to relax more in rougher seas without adrenalin pouring and engaging in lots of technique to handle rougher conditions. The old man and the sea whom you observed was basically out in similar waters as you, maybe not in the worse kind of things that you do go out in but certainly in exposed and not calm conditions. What I like about an older Klepper like the one you saw is that, when underway, you can hear it creaking as the skin and frame absorb the forces of waves and chop. When I first heard the sound, I could not help but think of an old wooden seafaring ship. You sometimes can hear and feel the water as it passes underneath you and the skin moves with its passage . . . I could go on and on, Doug, but you seem to have something against my evangelical religiousity. :-) ralph diaz *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:33 PDT