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From: Strosaker <strosaker_at_cox.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rolling With Eyes Closed?
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 19:54:51 -0700
>... I usually open my eyes
> underwater to roll. ...
> Cheers, PT.

Paddlewisers,

I am wondering just how common this rolling with eyes open is among sea
kayakers. I understand rolling with your eyes open while learning to roll,
but not beyond that. Once my head is underwater, my eyes are closed and
everything is done by feel, which works quite well for me. Besides, it is
pretty hard to see anything unless you are wearing goggles or a mask. It is
especially hard to see anything in the most common place to roll, which is
in the sandy and frothy water of the surf zone. What about at night? Not to
mention that closing the eyes gives them a bit of protection.

Duane Strosaker
Southern California


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From: Bob Volin <bobvolin_at_optonline.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rolling With Eyes Closed?
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 00:43:19 -0400
I've worn contact lenses this year to avoid wearing glasses when paddling.
I generally close my eyes when I roll, but still have problems with the
contacts about half the time. The problem happens when the water running
down my face after I come up gets into my eyes.  Occasionally, a lens will
be displaced at that time. Since it's always the left lens, I plan to go
back to the opthalmologist to see whether I can get a different lens with a
better fit.
    Bob V


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From: Michael Daly <michaeldaly_at_rogers.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rolling With Eyes Closed?
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 01:28:52 -0400
On 17 Oct 2003 at 0:43, Bob Volin wrote:

>  Occasionally, a lens will be displaced at that time. Since it's
> always the left lens, I plan to go back to the opthalmologist to see
> whether I can get a different lens with a better fit.

I hear this problem a lot.  I know that with proper fit, the lenses 
stay put, period.  If they tell you that movement is normal, get 
another optician.  Acuvue changed their available shapes a few years 
ago and the new ones fit me great.  I had few problems with the old 
size and none whatsoever with the new ones.

Mike

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From: Steve Brown <steve_at_brown-web.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Rolling With Eyes Closed?
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 06:27:48 -0700
Once I became pretty comfortable with my roll, I started doing some of my
practice with eyes open. I'd say it's 50-50 now. I still like to do a
significant amount of practice rolling with eyes open to continually give
myself feedback and reinforce the proper body mechanics. I do this
especially if I start to feel any rolls are sloppy or strained.
If the water is clear and looks clean I usually keep them open. If it's dark
or the water is murky or sandy, I close them
For combat rolls it's much the same. If there's nothing to see, or if what I
see is scary (rocks etc), I close my eyes. Also, having spent days or weeks
letting sand work its way out from under my eyeballs occasion, I am pretty
careful to close my eyes if I get window shaded in the surf. 
I have noticed that people who are struggling with their rolls are usually
keeping their eyes closed. Opening eyes will not solve all rolling issues,
but it helps.
During set up a paddler with eyes closed will sometimes set up in crazy
positions, like paddle vertical, or even under the boat. The reason for this
is obvious; they can't yet tell what position their body is in without
looking. Some are better at mastering this than others. 
During the roll a paddler with eyes closed is more likely to lift their
head. Keeping eyes open allows the paddler to watch the blade sweep. That
has a twofold benefit of encouraging torso rotation during the roll (rather
than just using arms) and tending to keep the head in or near the water. 
Some chronic head lifters still try and cheat by watching the paddle out of
the corner of their eye instead of turning their head to face the blade.
Their well deserved punishment comes the next time they get flipped in the
surf :-)

Steve Brown
 

-----Original Message-----
 Paddlewisers,

I am wondering just how common this rolling with eyes open is among sea
kayakers. I understand rolling with your eyes open while learning to roll,
but not beyond that. Once my head is underwater, my eyes are closed and
everything is done by feel, which works quite well for me. Besides, it is
pretty hard to see anything unless you are wearing goggles or a mask. It is
especially hard to see anything in the most common place to roll, which is
in the sandy and frothy water of the surf zone. What about at night? Not to
mention that closing the eyes gives them a bit of protection.

Duane Strosaker
Southern California



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From: Michael Daly <michaeldaly_at_rogers.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Rolling With Eyes Closed?
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 13:03:09 -0400
On 17 Oct 2003 at 6:27, Steve Brown wrote:

> I have noticed that people who are struggling with their rolls are
> usually keeping their eyes closed. Opening eyes will not solve all
> rolling issues, but it helps. During set up a paddler with eyes closed
> will sometimes set up in crazy positions, like paddle vertical, or
> even under the boat. The reason for this is obvious; they can't yet
> tell what position their body is in without looking. 

There have been a couple of responses that mention this sort of 
thing.  I think that this is actually a good reason for practicing 
with eyes closed.  You want to develop your body awareness without 
looking at what you're doing.

The best rolling student I've had was a very keen student of yoga.  
She had superb body control and awareness.  She wanted to learn how 
to roll without a paddle, since she felt it got in the way(!!).  I 
showed her a butterfly roll instead and she got it on the second try. 
The only reason she blew the first was because she tried to use both 
hands on the paddle instead of one.  Second try!! How many learn a 
roll that quickly? She did it by imitating my demonstration in every 
detail - obviously aided by years of yoga study (among other things).

If you can't know your body position without sight, then you will 
never develop a reliably roll.  You have to practice this sort of 
thing until you can do it instinctively.  Having taught cross-country 
skiing and kayak rolling, I know that a lot of folks have problems 
knowing what their body is doing without looking, but it's essential 
for good skill development.  Body awareness is one of the most 
fundamental skills in sports.

You should be able to set up the paddle by feel.  This means either 
developing a feel for the oval/index or sliding your hand to the 
blade root.  With practice, you'll get a feel for paddle orientation 
just by water pressure on the blade when you move it in any 
direction.  Extended paddle rolls should be very easy to set up with 
eyes closed  - you're holding the blade!

As well, you should be able to orient the paddle to the water surface 
by feel as well.  Get your hands into the air before doing the roll 
and feel the surface (slapping the paddle on the surface is a basic 
manoeuvre).  

Since most folks can hold their breath for thirty seconds or so, 
spend that time upside-down working on orientation practice.  As I 
said in a previous post, I can "see" everything upside down with my 
eyes closed because I visualize everything inside my head.  Set 
yourself underwater and upside-down goals like - 

- take a bit of rope from under your bungies and untie a knot
- ditto and tie a knot 
- toss away your paddle and take up your spare from under deck 
bungies
- switch your paddle end-for-end and set up
- swing your paddle around and turn the blade to follow the movement 
with minimum resistance.
- switch rolls (e.g. set up onside and switch to offside, or set up 
on the rear deck and switch to foredeck and vice-versa)
- take off your pfd and roll with it
- do a somersault reentry and roll.

Do these one at a time, of course.  These will aid in both making you 
aware of what you're doing and making you comfortable with how much 
time you can spend upside-down holding your breath before rolling.  
You'll also learn to "see" with various parts of your body (the 
somersault entry will allow you to "see" with your feet and legs).

You won't always be able to see underwater and if you rely on seeing, 
you'll fail under poor visibility conditions.  Everything should be 
practiced until automatic.

Mike

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From: Kirby Stevens <K_Stevens_at_telus.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Rolling With Eyes Closed?
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 05:56:41 -0700
Quite frankly, I roll with my eyes open.   I want to see what's under there
if I go over.

Case in point, in a reef or rock garden I would like to see where the rocks
are before the hit me not afterward.

Kirby Stevens
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From: <cholst_at_bitstream.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Rolling With Eyes Closed?
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 08:45:37 -0500
I wear contacts, so except when practicing while wearing a dive mask, and 
frequently even then, I roll with my eyes closed. My wife, on the other hand, 
rolls mostly with her eyes open, and once when something on her deck obscured 
her vision during a practice roll, it confused her so much that she missed her 
roll. The moral: Learn to roll with your eyes closed; you never know when your 
vision might be blocked.

Chcuck Holst
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