I'm looking into ways of keeping folks in our kayak club in touch with what's going on. For quite a while, our club's had a quarterly newsletter, but increasing the frequency is out of the question. Since most of our membership have computers, we are exploring getting some kind of email based system. We'd like to get breaking information to the members quickly. For example, if a trip comes together but needs another member by the following weekend, waiting for the next newsletter is out of the question. Right now, we have a web-based BBS, but it is little used and not very good (I'm the moderator and _I_ rarely go there!). It was supplied by a commercial interest and I'd rather drop it. I like the idea of a mailing list (a la Paddlewise), but don't know how to set one up and have been told there's a payment issue with majordomo etc. (is this true? - who pays for Paddlewise?) Our club's web site is on a commercial site with advertising (Geocities), but it can't support anything but read-only web site stuff - no BBS or other things. We'd have to go to a $$ service to do that. We have a budget but would like to keep costs down. Phone networks exist, but they are, and are perceived to be, cliquish. New members tend to be left out, since no one knows them. How do folks in your clubs keep in touch? Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Moderator's Note: Content unaltered. Excessive quoting (including headers/footers/sig lines/extraneous text from previous posts, etc.) have been removed. Please edit quoted material in addition to removing header/trailers when replying to posts.] I used to be the Owner/Moderator for my ski club's Listserv. We use Yahoo! Groups now as our email based Listserv. It is a free service and can be either moderated or un-moderated. We originally had it as un-moderated but then switched it over to become moderated to give us better control over what was being posted. Yahoo! Groups offers many different options for configuring its functionality. Jeff Pringle -----Original Message----- From: Michael Daly [mailto:michaeldaly_at_rogers.com] Subject: [Paddlewise] Keeping kayak club members in touch. I'm looking into ways of keeping folks in our kayak club in touch with what's going on. <snip> How do folks in your clubs keep in touch? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 05:26 PM 12/17/03 -0500, Michael Daly wrote: > >Right now, we have a web-based BBS, but it is little used and not >very good (I'm the moderator and _I_ rarely go there!). It was >supplied by a commercial interest and I'd rather drop it. > >I like the idea of a mailing list (a la Paddlewise), but don't know >how to set one up and have been told there's a payment issue with >majordomo etc. (is this true? - who pays for Paddlewise?) > Take a look at http://www.voy.com/ -- easy to set up, relatively noncommercial. It's what I use for kayakplace. -- Wes --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wes Boyd's Kayak Place NEW URL! -- http://www.kayakplace.com Kayaks for Big Guys (And Gals) | Trip Reports | Places To Go | Boats & Gear --------------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Michael wrote: - >I'm looking into ways of keeping folks in our kayak >club in touch with what's going on. G'Day Michael and Paddlewise, For private groups is there much difference between an address list facility set up using email software such as Microsoft Outlook, and a mailing list such as Paddlewise? I've worked with several address list based groups which worked well and varied in size from between three to thirteen souls. Your point about cliques rings true. Such lists have to be maintained and how much of a clique it is depends on the maintainer and the character of the group. One of my list groups, paddles regularly, never designates a trip leader, avoids comparing skill levels, and by mutual consent and informal assessment paddles within the limits of the weakest paddler. It is inevitably cliquy. If a potential participant does not appreciate this approach thats fine and they may be invited for selected paddles but wouldn't be included on the list for routine communication. Regarding the website approach, I doubt they are intrinsically ineffective. An example of a well used site is the NSWSKC club web page, which serves a membership of several hundred. The address is http://www.nswseakayaker.asn.au/ you can click on "club calendar" for a list of formal club trips to a set protocol and with designated trip leaders or click on "club notice board" for informal trips. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 18 Dec 2003 at 21:38, PeterO wrote: So many responses! Thanks all! > For private groups is there much difference between an address list > facility set up using email software such as Microsoft Outlook, and a > mailing list such as Paddlewise? I've worked with several address list > based groups which worked well and varied in size from between three > to thirteen souls. Our club has about 160-170 members, so the address list can be a bit cumbersome. My main concern is that an address list has to be maintained by one individual, whereas a mailing list is maintained by the all users through subscribe/unsubscribe. We are actually using an address list now, but only to a limited extent. > Your point about cliques rings true. Such lists have to be maintained > and how much of a clique it is depends on the maintainer and the > character of the group. Cliques are a fact of life and I don't see any reason to interfere with them - certain paddlers will congregate together regardless. We just want to ensure that the non-members of the clique have an alternative way of getting together with paddlers in the club. > Regarding the website approach, I doubt they are intrinsically > ineffective. You are right. It's just that the web site is passive (user has to go to it) whereas email is active (message goes to the member). We list lots on our web site <http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/4657/> but it's not "instant". I see an e-mail based system as complementing, not replacing the web site. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Michael wrote: - >My main concern is that an address list has to be >maintained by one individual, whereas a mailing >list is maintained by the all users through >subscribe/unsubscribe. G'Day Michael, Thanks for that. Now I can see the advantage of a subscription list over a mailing list and how it complements the web site. Will be very interested to see what you end up using. Hope you let us know. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Well, there's no direct payment issue with Majordomo the software package - it's free software. It's only an issue when you start looking for some place that hosts a Majordomo system. Paddlewise (and its associated paddling lists, such as CKF, Baidarka, GASP! etc) were originally set up by me at my startup ISP, about 8 years ago (Paddlewise is a little younger than that actually, but the point remains that I set up Majordomo for paddling lists in 1995). It moved off my company's hosts sometime after we were bought out by another company, and now all these Majordomo lists run off my home server. We have a full time commercial-grade Internet connection with dedicated IP addresses (no dynamic addressing) and it also requires a certain degree of dedication on my part too to make sure everything works most of the time. The Paddlewise web site is set up on the same machine as the Majordomo server. So who pays for it? Mostly me. Kirk is paying for the domain name these days, so that's a little less expense for me, but the vast majority of the costs are for the DSL line By reasonable accounting standards some share of my computer hardware is devoted to Paddlewise, but those expenses are much lower than the DSL line. Majordomo software is pretty old by now, and it's a little hard to manage message approvals if the list-owner/moderator is not running a Unix mail client, but it still works pretty well, and I've put in some custom enhancements to make some things run a little better. However, here are no web-based mail archives, mostly due to laziness on my part. Anyway, it's basically no incremental cost for me to add another kayak club list if you want to use our old Majordomo system, as long as the list is fairly small (i.e., Paddlewise-size or smaller). Let me know if you're interested. Michael Daly wrote: >I'm looking into ways of keeping folks in our kayak club in touch >with what's going on. > >For quite a while, our club's had a quarterly newsletter, but >increasing the frequency is out of the question. Since most of our >membership have computers, we are exploring getting some kind of >email based system. We'd like to get breaking information to the >members quickly. For example, if a trip comes together but needs >another member by the following weekend, waiting for the next >newsletter is out of the question. > >Right now, we have a web-based BBS, but it is little used and not >very good (I'm the moderator and _I_ rarely go there!). It was >supplied by a commercial interest and I'd rather drop it. > >I like the idea of a mailing list (a la Paddlewise), but don't know >how to set one up and have been told there's a payment issue with >majordomo etc. (is this true? - who pays for Paddlewise?) > >Our club's web site is on a commercial site with advertising >(Geocities), but it can't support anything but read-only web site >stuff - no BBS or other things. We'd have to go to a $$ service to >do that. We have a budget but would like to keep costs down. > >Phone networks exist, but they are, and are perceived to be, >cliquish. New members tend to be left out, since no one knows them. > >How do folks in your clubs keep in touch? > >Mike >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed >here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire >responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. >Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net >Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rich Kulaweic posted an excellant article on the negative aspects of yahoo groups about a year ago. My local kayak club, http://www.nspn.org, is basically Internet based they have a very active BBS. I don't read it that often, as I like a list that drops into my email folder instead of having to go visit the BBS. The outrigger canoe club that I paddle with uses an address list on the club captains machine. That "list" has very one way traffic - I think he's the only one that sends out messages. On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 15:07:25 -0800, "Bob Myers" <bob_at_intelenet.net> said: > Paddlewise (and its associated paddling lists, such as CKF, Baidarka, > GASP! etc) were originally set up by me at my startup ISP, about 8 years > ago (Paddlewise is a little younger than that actually, but the point > remains that I set up Majordomo for paddling lists in 1995). When I started the baidarka mailing list I started it as a mailing list saved in my email package. It only stayed that way for about 3 months. It just grew too fast so I set up a majordomo server on a unix machine at work. Sometime later it joined paddlewise on Bob's server when I had to change employers. Keeping a mailing list in your address book only works well for a small number of people. It also causes issues because the list isn't centralized, unless one person functions to redistribute the mailing list - yuck. > Paddlewise moved > off my company's hosts sometime after we were bought out by another > company, and now all these Majordomo lists run off my home server. We > have a full time commercial-grade Internet connection with dedicated IP > addresses (no dynamic addressing) and it also requires a certain degree > of dedication on my part too to make sure everything works most of the > time. The Paddlewise web site is set up on the same machine as the > Majordomo server. Has anyone on the list set up a majordomo list that retrieves email from a separate server using something like fetchmail? I've been contemplating getting webspace at somewhere like webmasters.com (any recommendations?) and moving paddlewise to there. I tried to get DSL to my house but I live too far from a CO. I can't host a website at home with my current ISP because they block the port 80 (used by webservers) - but they don't block the spam relays on port 25 :-( Kirk -- Kirk Olsen kork4_at_cluemail.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Kirk Olsen wrote: > Rich Kulaweic posted an excellant article on the negative aspects of > yahoo groups about a year ago. I remember that article. I thought about it when our local club, Georgia Canoeing Association, lost its free deal with a local ISP and needed a host and our list manager suggested Yahoo groups. I'm please and surprised to report that we have had no problems with Yahoo. I was expecting tons of spam and general crap, but have not seen any. YMMV. My thanks also to Bob for hosting. And to Jackie and Kirk for being list mommy and daddy. -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 19 Dec 2003 at 9:00, Steve Cramer wrote: > I'm please and surprised to report that we have had no problems with > Yahoo. I was expecting tons of spam and general crap, but have not > seen any. YMMV. There've been a few comments here and backchannel about this. There seems to be a division of opinion on this - some say Yahoo is a spam source, others, it's not. I had the idea of setting up a fake user ID and then setting up a Yahoo group with that as a member. Then I'll watch to see how much spam that ID generates. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 01:00 PM 12/19/03 -0500, Michael Daly wrote: > >I had the idea of setting up a fake user ID and then setting up a >Yahoo group with that as a member. Then I'll watch to see how much >spam that ID generates. Did just that -- with an address of "spamtrap", no less. Didn't get a lot, but did get some, and it all had to come from Yahoo. Again, I'd renew my suggestion to use Voy.com if you're interested in setting up a web-based mailing list. It's slow and clunky, in a way, but considerably faster, and less clunky, than the Yahoo group. I've used it on kayakplace.com for some time, and it works well for me, it's easy to set up and administer, and is probably the best of the free bulletin boards, in my opinion. -- Wes --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wes Boyd's Kayak Place NEW URL! -- http://www.kayakplace.com Kayaks for Big Guys (And Gals) | Trip Reports | Places To Go | Boats & Gear --------------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 19 Dec 2003 at 13:41, Wes Boyd wrote: > Did just that -- with an address of "spamtrap", no less. Didn't get a > lot, but did get some, and it all had to come from Yahoo. I'm not surprised. Spam bugs me, but with the mail software and spam filtering I use, about 90% disappears and the other 10% I can deal with. Not everyone is using spam filtering and they tend to be reluctant to use any email-based system. > Again, I'd renew my suggestion to use Voy.com if you're interested in > setting up a web-based mailing list. It's slow and clunky, in a way, > but considerably faster, and less clunky, than the Yahoo group. Still under consideration - I'm not worried about speed with only 150 or so members and a likely sign-up rate of about 50%. We'll be using it to send club info on a weekly or bi-weekly basis (I'm guessing) so it won't be a volume that makes speed an issue. Thanks for the info, Wes! Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
G'Day, Michael has got me hooked on the idea of using a subscription list rather than an address list for informal group trips. I must confess to being totally lost in the technical details. If you do take the discussion off line can you let me know the outcome and what you finally decide. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 20 Dec 2003 at 7:26, PeterO wrote: > Michael has got me hooked on the idea of using a subscription list > rather than an address list for informal group trips. Peter, I ended up going with a product called "Arrow" (http://www.jadebox.com/arrow/) for the time being. It's shareware and only US$50 to register. The advantage of this product is that it runs on a workstation rather than a server and to the ISP, it looks like an e-mail program rather than a mail server. In other words, it looks like, say, MS Outlook rather than MS Exchange (or whatever the mail server is currently called). If the ISP does a port scan, they'll see nothing unusual - everything is through POP3 and SMTP servers just like regular e-mail. It also supports paced sending, so I can set it to send only five or ten messages at a time rather than the whole lot and won't end up looking like a spammer to the ISP. So I shouldn't have to worry about the ISP hassling me. Arrow is a Windows program, but there are similar products for Apple and Unix machines. I found this and the others through a google search. I've currently implemented it for the board of directors of the club (only about 6 plus other key members like our newsletter editor). It runs when my computer's on (12-16 hours/day) and processes mail once every hour. I'm using the beta version, since I need one feature that's new - SMTP Authentification (the SMTP server needs a login). Other that this hiccup, the product is very easy to set up and use. The only time I know it's running is when my virus/firewall program indicates it's scanning incoming/outgoing mail. If our extensive test with the board of directors is successful, we'll get it running with a second maillist for the general membership. I'd like that one on a computer that runs 24/7 and processes more frequently. Since this isn't a processing-intensive product, I'm hoping we can find another club member with the appropriate hardware/ISP setup. It may not be perfect, but it's a good solution for small clubs and such. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[ I suggest that if we're going to discuss this further we take it off-list -or- if anyone is really interested, to Spam-L, which exists specifically to discuss spam and related issues. ] On Fri, Dec 19, 2003 at 01:00:41PM -0500, Michael Daly wrote: > There've been a few comments here and backchannel about this. There > seems to be a division of opinion on this - some say Yahoo is a spam > source, others, it's not. <sigh> 1. There is absolutely no question that Yahoo is (itself) a prolific spam source. 2. There is absolutely no question that some addresses entrusted to Yahoo quickly turn up in the hands of spammers. This is NOT a matter of opinion. It's a matter of demonstrable, verified fact. (Actually, a small mountain of facts, to which additions are made every day. For example, the mail logs of all the servers I operate provide me with a continuous supply of fresh evidence.) So if you follow the link I've previously provided: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&safe=off&q=yahoo&btnG=Google+Search&meta=group%3Dnews.admin.net-abuse.email you can read it about it happening over and over again. Over a period of years. From Yahoo stores. Via Yahoo lists. From Yahoo's mail servers. And on and on and on. I suggest that anyone wishing to debate this further read at least *some* of those messages, some of which consist of detailed, rigorous technical analyses showing that, yes, it points straight back to Yahoo, and yes, Yahoo refuses -- even when proof is laid in front of them that THEIR customer is spamming from THEIR network using THEIR mail servers -- to lift a finger. There's a *reason* there are 140,000 hits there. > I had the idea of setting up a fake user ID and then setting up a > Yahoo group with that as a member. Then I'll watch to see how much > spam that ID generates. And this is the only question that remains open, as I've explained: not *all* addresses signed up for *all* Yahoo mailing lists get spam; some do, and quickly; others never do; and others only get certain kinds of spam. (Possible explanations include spammer incompetence, anti-spam measures at recipient's own ISP, deliberate targeting of some lists, deliberate targeting of some classes of users, deliberate avoidance of some lists, deliberate avoidance of some classes of users, and about a dozen other things.) And like I've said, many of us have already run multiple carefully controlled instances of this experiments, and we know that sometimes the address stays untouched for years. But we also know that sometimes it gets hit within hours. All of which is very interesting, but the bottom line is that is should NEVER happen. The fact that it does raises extremely serious questions about their ability to properly operate their services and responsibly protect the security and privacy of their users. ---Rsk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 19 Dec 2003 at 14:45, Rich Kulawiec wrote: > [ I suggest that if we're going to discuss this further we take it > off-list -or- if anyone is really interested, to Spam-L, which exists > specifically to discuss spam and related issues. ] > This'll be my final comment (I hope). > <sigh> > > 1. There is absolutely no question that Yahoo is (itself) a prolific > spam source. Ok Rich, you've convinced me - Yahoo is out. I think I'll investigate voy.com or other services. Thanks! Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 17 Dec 2003 at 15:07, Bob Myers wrote: > Paddlewise (and its associated paddling lists, such as CKF, Baidarka, > GASP! etc) were originally set up by me at my startup ISP, about 8 > years ago Thanks for the info. I would consider running it out of my home for the club, but for the fact that my ISP (cable-based) won't allow a server at the user's end. I used to work in web development and hosting, so it would be easy (well...) for me to do that. It wouldn't be as fast as commercial T1 or DSL, but adequate for our club's needs. I'm keeping this in mind if I end up on another ISP after "the move" (our house is currently for sale, but it's likely that I'll stay with the cable ISP at a new location). If I find another ISP that will allow a small server in my home, then the incremental cost to me would be zilch. BTW - can a mailserver/majordomo setup be administered remotely, or is physical access to the server pretty much mandatory? > So who pays for it? Mostly me. Kirk is paying for the domain name > these days, so that's a little less expense for me, but the vast > majority of the costs are for the DSL line By reasonable accounting > standards some share of my computer hardware is devoted to Paddlewise, > but those expenses are much lower than the DSL line. Pretty generous of you! I know that some folks consider such a thing a part of their hobby and don't find such costs out of line with their interests. Still, it is generous. > Anyway, it's basically no incremental cost for me to add another > kayak club list if you want to use our old Majordomo system, as long > as the list is fairly small (i.e., Paddlewise-size or smaller). Let > me know if you're interested. Thanks for the offer. I guess I'd like this but feel ackward about such an offer since you're so far away and not associated with our club. In spite of the international nature of the Internet, it still seems weird to consider having our club's list hosted in another country! (We have only about 5-10 members in the US, mostly in NY near Buffalo/Niagara - we have as many members in Europe). Almost everyone is in southern Ontario. If we go that route, I'd like to find a member with a suitable setup; I know that some members use a family member's server - perhaps we can get in there. In general, I'm thinking that Yahoo groups might suffice. In the short term, it would be easier to set up and kill if it isn't working out. If it does work but the spam is too much to deal with, then we might consider changing to a mail listserver. Thanks again for the info and again for hosting Paddlewise!!! Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'm on three club Yahoo! groups, one moderated, one not, and the other I'm not sure whether it's moderated or not. I've notice no difference in spam coming from membership in any of them. Not sure what's involved in a moderated list group--but that would seem to mean that someone somewhere has to do something. With the unmoderated group posted messages are pretty immediate--really helps getting the word out and around. I looked into doing another commercial service, the owner is also a paddler in the Washington DC area and offered to host for $10/month. I decided against it--while not much, it was too much for this unemployed paddler to cough up--and the Yahoo! is free! John Browning *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
We use http://groups.yahoo.com/ just 'start a new group' and it'll walk you thru the process. super EZ, free (except for the ads), and a piece off cake to set up. we have a number of groups set up to keep track of everything from the Lower Columbia River Water trail to commercial education offerings at the shop. People can receive individual emails, digests, or go to the website to read postings. steve Alder Creek Kayak & Canoe N 45: 36.285' 250 NE Tomahawk Isle Dr. W 122: 39.841' Portland, OR 97217 Web: www.aldercreek.com Phone: 503.285.0464 Email: aldercreek_at_qwest.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
My club (ConnYak) uses a monthly newsletter, and a BBS. Our BBS is very heavily used, and has become our primary means of communication, especially for those who are paranoid about spam (They just don't put their email addresses in the messages). Personally, I get about 100 - 150 spams a day, and I couldn't care less....... Mailing lists work pretty good, too, but someone has to administer them & keep all the addresses current. Wayne ===== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Wayne Smith wsmith16_at_snet.net Check out my website! http://pages.cthome.net/wsmith16/home.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I don't think there is any difference between Yahoogroups, moderated or not and spam. My wife has a screen name she uses on Yahoo and belongs to the same lists as me and she recieves NO spam and I do. Must be the other places I go on the 'net that generate the spam, not Yahoo. =:-0) steve http://mail2web.com/ . *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, Dec 18, 2003 at 10:24:04AM -0500, aldercreek_at_qwest.net wrote: > I don't think there is any difference between Yahoogroups, moderated or not > and spam. I wouldn't count on that. A number of people, including me, have conducted controlled experiments using different email addresses on different ISPs in different countries. (This is sometimes called using "tagged" addresses: they're things like a7b8g92zbxba8273_at_example.com that are effectively impossible to guess and which are never exposed anywhere else.) When we pool results and do analysis, what we find is: 1. Signing up for a Yahoo mailing list does not guarantee that you'll get spammed at that address. BUT: 2. Email addresses which are known only to the owner and to the Yahoo list management service (i.e. which have NEVER sent a message to the list and which cannot be discovered by querying the mail server on which they reside) sometimes start getting spammed hours (!) to weeks after signing up for a Yahoo list. This means that there's a pathway from "some addresses signed up for some mailing lists at Yahoo" to "some spammers". And of course, once an email address is in the hands of "some spammers", it's the hands of MANY spammers. (See http://www.honet.com/Nadine/ for funny case history.) How is this happening? We don't know. But Yahoo is clearly behaving irresponsibly in a lot of other ways (hosting spammer web sites, hosting spammer mailboxes, resetting its users' privacy preferences, allowing list-owners to mailbomb, etc.) so it's hardly surprising; in fact, it fits right in. And lest you think that this is just paranoid speculation, let me point out that in the last two months alone, we've seen confirmed reports that (1) the LA Times sold/gave tagged email addresses to Experian (2) tagged email addressses given to United Airlines started getting porn spam from Brazil, and, most recently, (3) a web company (overstock.com) filed suit against a pair of former employees, alleging that they stole 3 MILLION customer addresses and sold them under-the-table to spammers. See: http://tv.ksl.com/index.php?nid=5&sid=62815 and http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,565037182,00.html Is that what's happening at Yahoo? Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe there's a serious security issue instead. There's no real way to know, especially because the Yahoo abuse desk is legendary for its total lack of clue -- read 'em and weep: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&safe=off&q=yahoo+abuse+desk&btnG=Google+Search&meta=group%3Dnews.admin.net-abuse.email so trying to even convince them that maaaaaaaaybe there's a problem that they really ought to look at is completely hopeless. So my advice to everyone is: a) Don't sign up your primary address for any lists hosted by Yahoo. Use something temporary that you can afford to abandon. (Unless you or your ISP/company/whoever have some very good anti-spam measures in place.) [Aside: same goes for Topica and a few others as well.] b) Don't host your mailing list there. There are plenty of alternatives (two of which are right here in front of you) that don't have these problems, so why take the risk? Or maybe more importantly, why ask your subscribers to take the risk? ---Rsk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Michael Daly wrote: > On 17 Dec 2003 at 15:07, Bob Myers wrote: > BTW - can a mailserver/majordomo setup be administered remotely, or > is physical access to the server pretty much mandatory? Majordome can be run over the net. I did a bit with one, and I am a klutz. > In general, I'm thinking that Yahoo groups might suffice. In the > short term, it would be easier to set up and kill if it isn't working > out. If it does work but the spam is too much to deal with, then we > might consider changing to a mail listserver. Yahoo is easy to use and includes a bit of web space. Don't use Topica. The Ottawa area SK group used (uses?) it but I find it clunky and its messages often get filtered out as Spam. (Topica used to be a spammers haven.) GaryJ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 05:25 PM 12/18/2003 -0500, Gary J. MacDonald wrote: >Michael Daly wrote: >>On 17 Dec 2003 at 15:07, Bob Myers wrote: > >>BTW - can a mailserver/majordomo setup be administered remotely, or is >>physical access to the server pretty much mandatory? > >Majordome can be run over the net. I did a bit with one, and I am a klutz. I've run Majordomo servers as well. I worked as a unix systems administrator or 17 years (now a senior programmer/analyst) and I wouldn't recommend Majordomo for a mailing list manager. I've used the Lyris mailing list manager and would probably recommend that over Majordomo. However, I've developed a mailling list manager and distribution system for the USDA that has been running since August that has about 1500 different mailing lists with 1400 subscribers so if I wanted another mailing list manager I'd probably write it myself (using Jakarta-James). It sounds like what's needed is a web hosting service that either allows users to manage a mailing list service or already supports a mailing list service. A google search with a few appropriate keywords could probably identify a few. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I don't want to have this get too far off-topic, so I'll try to be brief. > Don't use Topica. The Ottawa area SK group used (uses?) it but I find it > clunky and its messages often get filtered out as Spam. (Topica used to be > a spammers haven.) There's no "used to" about it: Topica IS a major spam factory, becoming more so every day, and thus is having all its outbound mail blocked in a LOT of places. It's so bad that on some networks their entire allocated IP space is blocked in the routers/firewalls. See: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&safe=off&q=topica&btnG=Google+Search&meta=group%3Dnews.admin.net-abuse.email where you will find nearly 4000 messages discussing Topica -- and that's just one forum. > I wouldn't recommend Majordomo for a mailing list manager. I've used > the Lyris mailing list manager and would probably recommend that over Majordomo. Majordomo-1 is admittedly getting rather outdated, which is why lots of people are shifting to majordomo-2. However, majordomo-1 is still eminently serviceable for many lists, and it does have the advantage of being very small and lightweight. However, an excellent alternative is mailman, (http://www.list.org/) which is rapidly growing in popularity, has a nifty web interface for list-owners and moderators, built-in archiving (or hooks to external archives), and lots of other nice features. The only downside to mailman (from my point of view) is that it's written in Python (instead of Perl or C or something more widely used) and that it's somewhat of a CPU hog. Finally, let me suggest to anybody who wants to research Topica, or Yahoo, or anybody else vis-a-vis their spammy nature (or lack thereof) that a number of excellent online resources exist for this: enormous amounts of data have been compiled (in different ways by different people) and most of these compilations are very easy to search. Whether you want to slog through the thousands of results is up to you, but I'll suggest that if there ARE thousands of results, the first several dozen of which are depressingly similar, that maaaaaaaybe that alone should tell you something. I've started doing this as a matter of course before transacting business with anyone online. It's why, for example, I do not do business with amazon.com and do lots of business with powells.com. Usenet newsgroup news.admin.net-abuse.email ("nanae") http://groups.google.com/groups?safe=off&group=news.admin.net-abuse.email Usenet news.admin.net-abuse.sightings ("nanas") http://groups.google.com/groups?safe=off&group=news.admin.net-abuse.sightings SpamHaus Register of Known Spam Operations ("ROKSO") http://www.spamhaus.org/rokso/ Clueless Mailers Spamdemic Research Center http://cluelessmailers.org/ rfc-ignorant.org - The home for domains who don't play by the rules http://www.rfc-ignorant.org/ The Story of "Nadine" -- a Tale of Mailing Lists http://www.honet.com/Nadine/ Why don't spam blocking lists block only the spammers? http://www.clifto.com/itemize.html Thank Spammers http://www.linxnet.com/misc/spam/thank_spammers.html SpamFAQ http://www.spamfaq.net/ ---Rsk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> BUT: > 2. Email addresses which are known only to the owner and to > the Yahoo list management service (i.e. which have NEVER sent > a message to the list and which cannot be discovered by querying > the mail server on which they reside) sometimes start getting > spammed hours (!) to weeks after signing up for a Yahoo list. Yup. I'm convinced that's when I started receiving messages from Chief Mullah in Liberia asking me to help hide his money as he escapes from the country by emailing an account I rarely use for email purposes. I also don't like that Yahoo keeps setting the preferences setup from subscriber's request to receive no spam to open it up to receive all spam every time they upgrade (of course you have the option to go back to your preference page and reset it...). jackie paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'm late to this topic because we've had the flu in the house. 103.6 is a high temp!! Our club, Inland Sea Kayakers, is in the Minneapolis/St. Paul area of Minnesota. We have about 140 households at this time, with multiple paddlers in many households. I'm the communications director of the club. We have two primary means of communication, both electronic, both one-direction. We have a web site www.inlandseakayakers.org which is updated every couple of days. People do visit the web site regularly because it's where all events are posted and where you sign up for events. But the second method is the one which really reaches into homes -- and that's something called the ISK News Wave. This is an email newsletter which is sent to almost everyone. When they join the club, we take email addresses right on the application. Of our members, 93% are on email. It's not a listserve and it's just from the club to the members, using a "blind" list. The NewsWave is sent every other week, sometimes more if necessary and sometimes less (if the flu is here). In this, we announce trips, parties, dinners, pool sessions, when we need volunteers at an event, when there's a meeting (ok, even when two club members got engaged). Club members report this is the one thing that keeps them "in the loop" even when they haven't participated in any real way in a year. They know where we'll be, they know what we're doing, and they are invited. We had a message board for about 5 years which came to a sudden death last week. The first software I used (free from Matt's Script Archive) kept getting spammed, and the spam fixes were getting more and more frequent, and when I left town on a trip, man -- did that thing get nasty! I moved to another free bulletin board software -- Discus -- and this worked well, but we kept running out of space on our server. The bulletin board was where we intended people to connect with each other, sell used gear, buy stuff, etc. This worked okay, but was never highly used. However, the day it went down I sure heard about it! The feedback we get from club members has been that the NewsWave, the electronic update that goes out twice a month, is the best way we communicate. Granted, it's not between members, but this is simple to do and gets people involved. Jody Russell Eden Prairie, MN *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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