Kayakers, There is an article in today's local paper, the Orange County Register, about a guy rescued off Newport Beach, California after spending 2 hours in the water and nearly dying. He tipped over 3 miles offshore and apparently couldn't get back in the kayak because his denim pants, T-shirt, sweater and jacket weighted him down. It sounds like he didn't have a pump, because he said he couldn't splash the 59 degree F. water out of his sinking kayak faster than it was coming in. He didn't have a life jacket either. He decided to make a swim for shore with two cushions under his arms. The guy used to live at Catalina and had crossed the channel 14 times. On the day he was rescued, he was training for another crossing. It was his first time to tip over. The paper called him an avid kayaker. I would strongly disagree! Charlie Negus, 71, is a very lucky, absolute beginning kayaker and an embarrassment to the sport. Duane Strosaker www.rollordrown.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> said he couldn't splash the 59 degree F. water out of his sinking kayak > faster than it was coming in. Duane, did the article say why the kayak was sinking? What caused the leak? A collision? A seam failure? Too much UV degradation causing a fracture? Frequent waves flooding the exposed cockpit? Something else? Rick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rick, Like usual, the article was rather vague. The kayak was described as being 13 feet long. My guess is that it is a recreation/pond kayak with no flotation or bulkheads. However, a reporter may consider a cockpit full of water in a kayak with bulkheads as sinking kayak, so who knows. This incident isn't worthy of doing the type of investigation that Doug Lloyd does, because the mistakes this guy made don't apply to me and the friends I paddle with. Duane ----- Original Message ----- From: <Rick.Sylvia_at_ferguson.com> > > said he couldn't splash the 59 degree F. water out of his sinking > kayak > > faster than it was coming in. > > Duane, did the article say why the kayak was sinking? What caused the > leak? A collision? A seam failure? Too much UV degradation causing a > fracture? Frequent waves flooding the exposed cockpit? Something else? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 09:15 AM 3/26/2004 -0800, Strosaker wrote: >Rick, > >Like usual, the article was rather vague. The kayak was described as being >13 feet long. My guess is that it is a recreation/pond kayak with no >flotation or bulkheads. However, a reporter may consider a cockpit full of >water in a kayak with bulkheads as sinking kayak, so who knows. This >incident isn't worthy of doing the type of investigation that Doug Lloyd >does, because the mistakes this guy made don't apply to me and the friends I >paddle with. That's got to be the dumbest thing I think I've ever seen you write. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Duane Strosaker wrote: > The paper called him an > avid kayaker. I would strongly disagree! Charlie Negus, 71, > is a very lucky, absolute beginning kayaker and an > embarrassment to the sport. And this year's Darwin award goes to................ Steve Holtzman Southern CA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
And here I thought jeans and a t-shirt WAS considered cold water immersion clothing... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Duane Strosaker wrote: >....because the mistakes this guy made don't apply to me and the friends I > paddle with. > >John Fereira wrote: > That's got to be the dumbest thing I think I've ever seen you write. > John and All, I figured my statement would be viewed with some controversy. But I still stand by it. Not to say that I'd never make the some of the same mistakes as the victim being discussed, but with my experience, skills, and equipment, it is highly unlikely. For the same reason, I am completely bored reading about most sea kayaking disasters, which so often are about people who know almost nothing about the sport. That's why I read three chapters of Deep Trouble and gave the book away. The same ocean is a completely different playing field for each individual. When I hear of disasters involving a skilled paddler, I feel there is a chance for me to learn something, so I study it. I don't have anything to learn from this current victim being discussed. Duane *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
He was paddling in jeans, sweater and regular winter jacket, and didn't have even a cut-off milk jar to bail the water out? Amazing... I used a nylon shell for a while as el-cheapo paddle jacket, but at least it weighted the same when wet. What can be learned from that, if not a secret? :-) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
You should consider writing in to that paper to set them straight. This is worse than an embarrassment. It puts us one step closer to some moron politician making some "rules" for us to follow. Steve Brown -----Original Message----- Kayakers, .... The paper called him an avid kayaker. I would strongly disagree! Charlie Negus, 71, is a very lucky, absolute beginning kayaker and an embarrassment to the sport. Duane Strosaker www.rollordrown.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
First Duane wrote; " .... The paper called him an avid kayaker. I would strongly disagree! Charlie Negus, 71, is a very lucky, absolute beginning kayaker and an embarrassment to the sport." Then Steve said; "You should consider writing in to that paper to set them straight." According to my dictionary the definition of "AVID" is; "Characterized by enthusiasm and vigorous pursuit." Otherwise biting my tongue on this one, Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
About the whole discussion: It's so good to read it all! In Paddlewise, saying this kayakker is a beginner is preaching to the choir. What's more, the choir is getting bored with it! I'm almost embarressed to say, that right now I am in a simular discussion with my own club, with a totally different feedback. I'm trying to convince them, that for paddling on cold water, more then 500 meters from shore, you may expect: - That kayaks have adequate floatation; - That everybody has practiced rescues; - That everybody has practiced capsising, releasing a sprayskirt and getting out of the kayak; - That if the wind is blowing 5 or higher, you should know how to steer and brace. Doesn't sound too unreasonable, does it? Well, according to a handful of my clubmembers its bordering on paranoia. Their main argument: "Nothing happened so far, so how dangerous can it be?" Had I not been a member of Paddlewise, had I not seen the flood of accident reports each spring, I would never have started this discussion. Thanks, paddlewisers. In the club I may stand alone, but not in the bigger picture. Niels. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hej Niels You're perfectly right, and I wonder as I know that there are very serious paddlers and clubs in the Netherlands (I am a dutchman my selv) The steering part is often overlooked, trainnig recues in poollike surroundings is all very well. But I know from experience that many people who know their rescues have a very difficult time to get to the person needing rescue if there is a wind blowing! Therefor rescues have to be trained in a windy and choppy sea. You could try just falling out of your boat on one of your cluboutings and see how people cope, that might be a eyeopner for some of them. And don't forget the right clothing! Lenze www.havkajakcenter.dk I'm trying to convince them, that for paddling on cold water, more then 500 meters from shore, you may expect: - That kayaks have adequate floatation; - That everybody has practiced rescues; - That everybody has practiced capsising, releasing a sprayskirt and getting out of the kayak; - That if the wind is blowing 5 or higher, you should know how to steer and brace. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
It's good to see Lenze, Niels and hopefully many others taking this discussion in the manner that Duane and the Steves, Brown and Holtzman, tried to provoke. Some others show no perception of the underlying principle, and ironicly that lack of perception proves the principle. The principle is-"The limits of your perception are not necessarily the limits of all there is to perceive". Just because you have never had an emergency does not mean you won't. And it is nice to paddle with people you know can perform a tee rescue in just one minute or immediately exticate a swimmer from a boiling rock garden. Kayak fun is directly proportional to kayak traing. There are some things you cannot have too many of-friends, dogs, kayaks and kayak training. Mike ===== "A kayak is a sleek water craft with a cockpit opening on the bottom." ...University of Sea Kayaking (www.useakayak.org) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mike said (snip): >>It's good to see Lenze, Niels and hopefully many others taking this discussion in the manner that Duane and the Steves, Brown and Holtzman, tried to provoke.<< Well Mike, we've had lots of discussion in the past on this, historically, on Paddlewise. Doug Alderson and Mike Pardy from Vancouver Island have a newer book out which gives center focus to some of these issues. I've heard Wayne Horowitch give a couple of symposium discourses on the subject matter; I did like his presentation in one respect, in that he got a good discussion going amongst the participants. There's many facets to the subject and different groups bounce the light off differing surfaces differently. For new paddlers, these exercises are particularly useful. Many paddlers are too lazy and cheap to pick up a book like Deep Trouble, unfortunately. >>Just because you have never had an emergency does not mean you won't. And it is nice to paddle with people you know can perform a tee rescue in just one minute or immediately extricate a swimmer from a boiling rock garden.<< And its nice to be able to extricate yourself solo, from above said scenarios, though preferably having the soft and hard skills to prevent problems in the first place. I did understand where Duane was coming from with his comments initially on this thread. I know for me, my biggest concerns paddling are what to wear first thing paddling when you know the sun will be blazing in an hour or when to crap (first thing or later in the morning out near some exposed landing). You get the picture. A competent paddler has a lot less "real" things to worry about, and often paddles troubled waters just to have fun. Safety is so relative, and not just a matter related to perceptual issues. One question that IS difficult to answer, is what do you say to the obviously visible paddler(s) who you see heading off ill prepared, unknowlegable, or unskilled for the possible conditions. The editor at Sea Kayaker magazine asks fellow paddlers this thought-provoking question in the recent issue. I take the affirmative action policy myself, but know the cool recoil of an offended newbie too. As to why new paddlers get into trouble in the first place, the answer is perhaps in the media culture of today, the profit-over-prudence habits of rental outfitters, and the proliferation of unseaworthy craft. As for the older, avid paddler who recently died off the California coast, he is rather a symptom than an embarrassment. But I'll tell you what I tell my wife: I'd rather die with my boots on (wet suit booties, that is). Of course, this fellow wasn't exactly prepared for combat, or even a mild skirmish. His crossing was actually in crossing the line. Doug Lloyd Victoria BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Niels Blaauw wrote: > I'm almost embarressed to say, that right now I am in a > simular discussion with my own club, with a totally different > feedback. > > I'm trying to convince them, that for paddling on cold water, > more then 500 meters from shore, you may expect: > > - That kayaks have adequate floatation; > - That everybody has practiced rescues; > - That everybody has practiced capsising, releasing a > sprayskirt and getting out of the kayak; > - That if the wind is blowing 5 or higher, you should know > how to steer and brace. > > Doesn't sound too unreasonable, does it? Well, according to a > handful of my clubmembers its bordering on paranoia. Their > main argument: "Nothing happened so far, so how dangerous can it be?" Niels, A few years ago, we had a local outrigger canoe get into trouble approximately 100 yards from shore. The result was one fatality. The paddlers in the canoes typically carry PFD's but don't wear them. There was an offshore wind and the canoe got swamped. I don't remember a lot of the details, but you have to remember that our water temperatures are usually around the low 50's at the coldest. Things can and do happen close to shore. Steve Holtzman Southern CA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Niels, Don't get discouraged, you are saving lives. I belong to a major kayaking club in the San Francisco bay area whose membership ranges from rank beginners to extremely skilled paddlers who have been paddling for decades. I have also been privileged to paddle with and have as my teachers some of the best paddlers in the world. All of the precautions you mentioned are taken for granted. Everyone does them without complaint. Although it has not happened should a member get a reputation of being careless, dangerous, or totally unskilled he/she would have problems finding someone to paddle with unless he/she were going out in a large group. A number of us have taken a full two day Wilderness First Aid class and have openly talked about wanting to be in groups with others who have done the same. I have a full first aid kit in my boat as do many others. We have regular rescue practice sessions in a local pool. And there have been rescue sessions in the ocean. Anyone who believes that accidents can't happen a few yards from shore is living in a dream world. Just because I have not gone headfirst through my car's windshield yet doesn't mean that I intend to stop wearing my seat belt. Good safety precautions don't take very long, the results of carelessness however can last forever. Raphael --- Niels Blaauw <niels.blaauw_at_wanadoo.nl> wrote: > About the whole discussion: > > It's so good to read it all! In Paddlewise, saying > this kayakker is a > beginner is preaching to the choir. What's more, the > choir is getting > bored with it! > > I'm almost embarressed to say, that right now I am > in a simular > discussion with my own club, with a totally > different feedback. > > I'm trying to convince them, that for paddling on > cold water, more then > 500 meters from shore, you may expect: > > - That kayaks have adequate floatation; > - That everybody has practiced rescues; > - That everybody has practiced capsising, releasing > a sprayskirt and > getting out of the kayak; > - That if the wind is blowing 5 or higher, you > should know how to steer > and brace. > > Doesn't sound too unreasonable, does it? Well, > according to a handful of > my clubmembers its bordering on paranoia. Their main > argument: "Nothing > happened so far, so how dangerous can it be?" > > Had I not been a member of Paddlewise, had I not > seen the flood of > accident reports each spring, I would never have > started this > discussion. > > Thanks, paddlewisers. In the club I may stand alone, > but not in the > bigger picture. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 3/27/04 4:54:04 AM Pacific Standard Time, sh_at_actglobal.net writes: Niels, A few years ago, we had a local outrigger canoe get into trouble approximately 100 yards from shore. The result was one fatality. The paddlers in the canoes typically carry PFD's but don't wear them. There was an offshore wind and the canoe got swamped. I don't remember a lot of the details, but you have to remember that our water temperatures are usually around the low 50's at the coldest. Things can and do happen close to shore. Steve Holtzman Southern CA Actually, I am fairly certain that two paddlers died in the incident Steve is describing. I'm a little hazy on the details, but as I recall there were 5 or 6 paddlers in a large outrigger canoe, and they took off that day in rough, windy conditions. The canoe capsized, and everyone stayed with the capsized canoe for a while. After some time, I believe two paddlers decided they would try to swim for shore, and as I recall it one swimmer was rescued, and other died and his body was found days later. The other fatality was among the group that stayed with the canoe, but he died of hypothermia. It was a very sad incident. I used to see this group heading out for a paddle on Sunday mornings, so it was quite a shock to hear about the accident. They normally paddled in swimsuits, cutoff shorts, T-shirts, no shirts, etc., so they were probably not equipped for cold water immersion on that day, although I don't remember the details of what they were actually wearing on the day of the accident. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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