Having been a reader of Paddlewise for a number of years, I have become a firm believer in carrying the proper safety gear and for critical items carrying backup safety gear. However, I do not paddle to be safe. I paddle to have fun. So I have decided that I need to carry all the proper fun gear when I paddle. Of course if you can not reach your gear then you can not use it and can not have fun with it. Therefore I tend to have a few items stored on my deck. At a recent symposium one of the instructors chided me for having an unsafe kayak because I had 2 water bottles under the bungees on the foredeck. He said having anything on the deck was unsafe because it could interfere with a rescue. I thought that was a little extreme, but since I now am carrying a few extra items in addition to the water bottles I thought I should run the list by all the Paddlewisers out there and get your thoughts on proper storage techniques. Below is my list for a simple day paddle. On the front deck: Compass USGS chart in chart case Photomosaic map Fishing map Dividers and Ruler Waterproof slate Waterproof log book 2 water bottles Binoculars General bird field guide Regional bird field guide Storm cag (prefer not having to open skirt in conditions requiring cag) VHF radio Cell phone GPS Lunch (on deck because often have to eat without getting out of kayak) Snack Digital still camera Video camera Signal light (waterproof flashlight) Combination Knot-meter/heart rate/calorie burned display Depth finder/fishfinder display Sea anchor Small V-sail rig Sailing kite (working on using one of those kite-surfing rigs to "fly" the kayak) Rite-aid (self inflating righting aid) Hand Pump (after pumping need easy place to store without opening skirt) Paddle float (after use need easy place to store without opening skirt) Small tackle box Landing net Orange Frisbee (signal device and good to cause friends to capsize by throwing it at them) On my person: Minor first aid kit Signal kit (flares, mirror, etc) Survival kit Survival water (1 qt) Tow belt On the rear deck: Spare paddle Surf helmet Swim fins Dive mask Snorkel Scuba tank Fishing rod in rod holder Of course I add 50 lbs of lead ballast to the bottom of the kayak to help keep it upright. I am using lead shot in PVC pipe. Works pretty well, but driving through the checkpoint at the Naval Air Station with several taped grey 12" pipes filled with rattling metal is not something I want to repeat. I have been thinking of mounting a couple of those revolving spice racks but am not sure what is the best way to mount them. One of those pneumatic tube systems that could bring things up from inside the kayak would be good too. I could use some of the compressed air from the scuba tank to power it. Although I have read the archived articles on electric pumps I was wondering if anyone would have any suggestions on mounting and wiring a lighted mirror. You have to make sure that you reapply that sunscreen correctly and have to make sure that you look as good as you paddle. Of course if you can think of any other fun gear that I should be carrying please feel free to let me know. Mark Arnold mjamja_at_earthlink.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 06:53 PM 5/11/2004 -0500, Mark Arnold wrote: >Having been a reader of Paddlewise for a number of years, I have become a >firm believer in carrying the proper safety gear and for critical items >carrying backup safety gear. However, I do not paddle to be safe. I >paddle to have fun. So I have decided that I need to carry all the proper >fungear when I paddle. Of course if you can not reach your gear then you >can not use it and can not have fun with it. Therefore I tend to have a >few items stored on my deck. At a recent symposium one of the >instructors chided me for having an unsafe kayak because I had 2 water >bottles under the bungees on the foredeck. He said having anything on >the deck was unsafe because it could interfere with a rescue. I thought >that was a little extreme, but since I now am carrying a few extra items >in addition to the water bottles I thought I should run the list by all >the Paddlewisers out there and get your thoughts on proper storage >techniques. Below is my list for a simple day paddle. > >On the front deck: >ET CETERA..... Thank you, Mark! Thank you, thank you, and well... thank you! I have been collecting and reading lists from all over the net for the last several months. This is the first list that makes complete sense to me! I am going to print, then laminate it. I will have to laminate my copy of YOUR list, so that, in case I use/lose/have stolen an item, I will be able to re-check the list and re-supply my (thank goodness) large volume - large deck surface kayak. Please email me if you find you have forgotten any (even the most questionable) item that needs to be added to the MASTER LIST. Tom *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark Arnold wrote: > Having been a reader of Paddlewise for a number of years, I have > become a firm believer in carrying the proper safety gear and for > critical items carrying backup safety gear. ... > Of course if you can think of any other fun gear that I should > be carrying please feel free to let me know. With all that stuff on deck, you're definitely in need of a set of sponsons. And even if your friends aren't laughing at you now, they're sure to snicker if they see a pair of yellow water wings strapped to your boat. I think sponsons would fit the theme of "fun" and safe... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Elias responded to Mark >>>With all that stuff on deck, you're definitely in need of a set of sponsons. And even if your friends aren't laughing at you now, they're sure to snicker if they see a pair of yellow water wings strapped to your boat. I think sponsons would fit the theme of "fun" and safe..<<<<< I too had thought your list was missing sponsons. After all, sometime you might want to stand up to take a leak. Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I too had thought your list was missing sponsons. After all, sometime you > might want to stand up to take a leak. > This is a luxury. What bailing scoop of folding bucket is for? Also, as I recall, he had some dozens of kilos of led ballast in a kayak for stability :-), then sponsons aren't needed. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 04:38 p.m. 13/05/2004 -0700, alex wrote: >> I too had thought your list was missing sponsons. After all, sometime you >> might want to stand up to take a leak. >> > > This is a luxury. What bailing scoop of folding bucket is for? Also, as I >recall, he had some dozens of kilos of led ballast in a kayak for stability >:-), then sponsons aren't needed. More likely he will need a periscope and goggles. Rafael www.mayanseas.com http://community.webshots.com/user/cayucochief MEXICO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Original message: > Elias responded to Mark > >>>With all that stuff on deck, you're definitely in need of a set of > sponsons. And even if your friends aren't laughing at you now, they're > sure to snicker if they see a pair of yellow water wings strapped to > your boat. I think sponsons would fit the theme of "fun" and safe..<<<<< > > I too had thought your list was missing sponsons. After all, sometime you > might want to stand up to take a leak. > > Matt Broze > www.marinerkayaks.com A couple of people have used the "S" word in describing an item I left off my list. More appropriately this should be described as an ESAD (External Stability Augmentation Device). I feel this is a more appropriate term since it better reflects the myriad of opinions on this item since ESAD also stands for: On the con side: Excessive Spam Acquisition Device Extra Stability Adds Disadvantages Easy Scheme (for) Acquiring Dollars On the pro side: Extra Stability Avoids Death Everyone Should Acquire (this) Device Essential Suit Avoidance Device On a personal note: Early Senility (is) Advancing Daily I am not promoting any of the opinions listed above. (although I am pretty confident about the Senility) I am just showing how the term ESAD reflects various opinions that have been expressed in some e-mails I have read in the past. Please DO NOT take this as an invitation to argue about the merits/demerits of ESAD's. As far as needing to stand up is concerned. The modified airline vacuum toilet is built into the custom foam seat so there is no need to assume such a position. You think with all that other stuff I would not have thought about nature's call. Plans for the revolving deck storage racks, pneumatic tube gear retrieval system, and vacuum toilet are available at www.brooklynbridgeforsale.com Mark J. Arnold *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 5/13/2004 2:47:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mkayaks_at_oz.net writes: > >>>With all that stuff on deck, you're definitely in need of a set of > sponsons. And even if your friends aren't laughing at you now, they're > sure to snicker if they see a pair of yellow water wings strapped to > your boat. I think sponsons would fit the theme of "fun" and safe..<<<<< > > I too had thought your list was missing sponsons. After all, sometime you > might want to stand up to take a leak. > Speaking of deck loads: anyone see the deck loads, fore and aft, in the current Sea Kayaker? Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Speaking of deck loads: anyone see the deck loads, fore and aft, in the > current Sea Kayaker? It is difficult to avoid it in an extended (7+ days) self-supported trip, especially when fresh water is a problem. Be it deck fore and aft bags, tubes with fishing poles or anything else. Unless you are using very wide high-volume boat, - which is a bus to paddle rest of the year. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Yea, it makes me feel better about having to fudge what I do with my sleeping bag which is too big for the hatch. Look at page 38 for the solar panels. That is cool! Joan Speaking of deck loads: anyone see the deck loads, fore and aft, in the current Sea Kayaker? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
So how much of a problem is it to have a bag on the back deck? I use a drybag for my sleeping pad (granted, it IS a slightly thicker than usual self-inflating pad) on the back deck. Doesn't seem to bother me much in terms of performance. It should affect weather cocking, right? When fully loaded though, my boat is a tank that rides pretty low in the water (with me at 250 lbs + all gear). Having something on the back deck could impact self-recovery choices. So in everyone's opinion, should anything like a sleeping bag or sleeping pad be carried on that back deck? How many people DO have something on the back deck for a 7 day trip? K *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Keith Wrage wrote: > So in everyone's opinion, should anything like a sleeping bag or > sleeping pad be carried on that back deck? > > How many people DO have something on the back deck for a 7 day trip? I'd say a sleeping pad is better than the 4 pieces of firewood I was assigned to carry one trip. Sort of Canadian Ballast Rocks(TM) in reverse. -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Keith asked: >So in everyone's opinion, should anything like a sleeping bag or sleeping >pad be carried on that back deck? I've ZERO experience in a kayak at this so this just my thinking from scuba and sailing experience. Thinking about why NOT to do it, it appears it would be a poor choice if A) it made you unstable to an unaceptable degree (skill and conditions considered) or B) it impedes your re-entry once you do turn turtle. A) is a choice of what and how much to put there, and B) possibly could be minimized by making the attachment to the yak a quick release affair. Sounds like you have a nice light object there, and one that will float if you cut it loose. I use a snap shackle with a short lanyard attached when there's an attachment I may want to un-attach in a hurry. Exactly like what you find on the end of the tether of a sailor's safety harness where it attaches to the sailor. Plan A) is to stay on the boat, so the tether attempts to help you do that. Plan B) is to be able to cut loose if Plan A) fails to the point where it's a hinderance rather than a help. If you can't re-enter with the load on, get rid of the load, get in, and if conditons permit, gather it up again - or not - at least you are alive. Rigging the lashings so one (or one of two) snap shackes will release it may not be trivial, but can be done. Thoughts anyone? Carey *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Rigging the lashings so one (or one of two) snap shackes will release it may >not be trivial, but can be done. I attach it using a pair of 3/4" web straps with fastex buckles. My thinking was similar to Carey's, in theory, if trying to do a paddlefloat re-entry I could unsnap the straps to get it out of the way. I'd risk losing my sleeping pad if things were really out of control conditions-wise but more realistically I'd have to retrieve the bag. I should add that most of my paddling is inland waters - in open ocean conditions if it was bad enough to have me swimming, I'm not sure chasing a bag out on the tide would be that easy! Hopefully I could tether the bag to the boat before clambering on. Also, watching my 6'8" 250 lb carcass do a paddlefloat re-entry is so much fun that more than likely the spectacle would attract an audience regardless of how far off the beaten path I was so there would be spectators around to grab the loose bag anyway!! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Keith asked: >So in everyone's opinion, should anything like a sleeping bag or sleeping >pad be carried on that back deck? G'Day, I'ld be seriously worried about it getting wet, unless you're paddling flat water. Presumably you would carry it in a reliable dry bag, but even then a trashed surf landing would surely compromise the dry bag. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 5/14/2004 1:17:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time, cramersec_at_charter.net writes: > I'd say a sleeping pad is better than the 4 pieces of firewood I was > assigned to carry one trip. Most wood floats. So just tell them that it's an antique paddle float. ; ) Rob *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 5/14/2004 2:33:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time, cparks_at_fuse.net writes: > If you can't re-enter with the load on, get rid of the load, get in, and if > conditons permit, gather it up again - or not - at least you are alive. > Rigging the lashings so one (or one of two) snap shackes will release it may > not be trivial, but can be done. How exactly were you going to get back in in conditions enough to dump you and gather that load? And you want me to help you back up onto the barge I suppose? > > Thoughts anyone? > Like, why not trade in the Kayak for a Zodiac? I mean really, If a load exceeds the carrying capacity of a kayak and it starts mounding up on the deck(s) it's time for a spring cleaning. ; ) Why not start with ace-ing the sleeping bag with the little ducks and grouse all over the flannel and spend a whopping 100 bucks on a mummy bag. Then there's the pair of 5L boxes O' wine. Yes, we know who we are out there! In an age, that has made significant strides in distillation progress perhaps we can now say that a liter of (Scotch, Bourbon, Vodka, Gin) when bought correctly tastes better than Chateau Vin du Papel. Then, there's the full on kit of pots and pans and cutlery I've seen hauled out of so many hatches. Usually, one is used the entire trip, or at the most two. Any one seen the full sized axe hauled out of a hatch? I have. Yep. Unbeknownst to me we took a 12 pound axe along one time and even got to use it once. Great call! Then there was the hardcover edition of Hillary Clinton's NY Phonebook memories. It weighs similar to the axe. Big ol' cotton beach towels, circus sized tents, a football, tackle boxes, 12 packs of beer, picnic grills, firearms, photography equipment, you name it. Oh, and the iron skillet just had to come along that one time, too. I don't exactly live off the land with a swiss knife and blanket these days, but I now try to make anything above my deck relate to paddling, not camping. I just don't want to stuff the whole gear closet into the hatches anymore. Signed, Former Gear Head *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: Rcgibbert_at_aol.com [mailto:Rcgibbert_at_aol.com] How exactly were you going to get back in in conditions enough to dump you and gather that load? And you want me to help you back up onto the barge I suppose? -----Reply------ I think you missed my point. If, for whatever reason (lack of good reasoning?) one feels they must have something on deck that might compromise a re-entry, then why not consider it expendable and if one does swim (which we're trying to avoid but didn't, just like we tried to avoid the deck load in the first place but didn't) I'd rather lose my sleeping bag (or whatever) than my life. Now we are back to re-entering a boat with clear decks at least. Having the deck load in the first place will compromise the roll, never mind the re-entry, so we're back to can you avoid it? If not, figure out how to lose it quickly. Maybe it will wash up on the beach a quarter mile away and you'll find it in the morning. Better than you washing up on the beach in a couple days (unless the waters cold in which case it will take much longer.) C *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
hi SOmeone asked about packing a kayak for 7 days. Check out Chris Duff's solo navigation or his recent circumnavigation of Iceland with Shauna Franklin and Leon Some' (postings are on www.bodyboatblade.com). These were month long trips and nothing was carried on front or rear decks besides spare paddles and cameras. My experience with stuff on decks is they all disappear when in the surf. I teach a clean deck paddling philosophy. Spare paddle only. Water bottle (but I always lose them in the surf) and a camera. Also makes rescue easier. happy and safe paddling sid *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Personally I carry a tent on the back of the Klepper, in a dry bag, and the emergency pack, secured to the boat with a lanyard. Spare paddle goes forward. Tord S Eriksson, Sweden *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 5/17/2004 6:18:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time, cparks_at_fuse.net writes: > > -----Reply------ > I think you missed my point. If, for whatever reason (lack of good > reasoning?) one feels they must have something on deck that might compromise > a re-entry, then why not consider it expendable and if one does swim (which > we're trying to avoid but didn't, just like we tried to avoid the deck load > in the first place but didn't) I'd rather lose my sleeping bag (or whatever) > than my life. Now we are back to re-entering a boat with clear decks at > least. Having the deck load in the first place will compromise the roll, > never mind the re-entry, so we're back to can you avoid it? If not, figure > out how to lose it quickly. Maybe it will wash up on the beach a quarter > mile away and you'll find it in the morning. Better than you washing up on > the beach in a couple days (unless the waters cold in which case it will > take much longer.) If it's expendable why is it along? In the event of a mishap others will no doubt be enlisted into cleaning up the yard sale, endangering them. All for what, a few pieces of gear whose owner was perhaps a bit too careless to store appropriately? Or plan for correctly? If the practice continues then *expendable* things like sleeping bags end up on the back deck and we all know how expendable they are when you are wet, cold and hypothermic.Sorry, too much of a buzzkill for me. Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 17 May 2004 at 11:45, Rcgibbert_at_aol.com wrote: > If it's expendable why is it along? In the event of a mishap others > will no doubt be enlisted into cleaning up the yard sale, endangering > them. All for what, a few pieces of gear whose owner was perhaps a bit > too careless to store appropriately? Or plan for correctly? If the > practice continues then *expendable* things like sleeping bags end up > on the back deck and we all know how expendable they are when you are > wet, cold and hypothermic.Sorry, too much of a buzzkill for me. I agree 100%. I've packed out a lot of detritus left behind by other paddlers over the years - sleeping bags, PFDs, shoes and other garbage. Others obviously considered this stuff "expendible". I consider it pollution and a considerable waste of resources. I know of folks, including at least one BCU senior instructor, who consider anything leaving your kayak while in use to be a failure on the part of the paddler. I tend to agree. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Carey Parks wrote: > I think you missed my point. If, for whatever reason (lack of good reasoning?) one feels they must have something on deck that might compromise a re-entry, then why not consider it expendable and if one does swim (which we're trying to avoid but didn't, just like we tried to avoid the deck load in the first place but didn't) So if it's expendable....then why take it in the first place?!!?!?? Shawn *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Shawn wrote: So if it's expendable....then why take it in the first place?!!?!?? Reply: Ah dogma. Makes life simple doesn't it? In kayaking as in life, all choices are not black and white, although some folks may pretend they are. Sure, if you don't need it, don't take it - or get a bigger boat. Or ship it ahead by FedEx. I don't care what lead up to someone having this deck load. That is not a point of discussion here - for me. IF, given all the advice and good judgement here on paddlewise, you find yourself with a deck load for whatever reason make DAMN sure you can loose it from your boat if you need to. Expendable is not the same as optional. Expendable - like the fuel that an aircraft might jettison prior to making an emergency landing. Fuel is nice to have, most of the time. Expendable, meaning in normal circumstances it might be highly desireable or even necessary, but given the current circumstances, these same resources are a liability. It's the change in circumstances that re-draws the line between good to have and good ridance. Long term survival will take a back seat to short term survival, since without short term survival the long term is a lot less interesting. I'm not going to assume that everyone paddling a kayak is willing to depart the launch site planning to live like a castaway because there's a "1-in-a-million" (replace with your level of risk tolerance) chance there may be a problem. Just please make sure that you can clear the decks for whatever emergency action may be required at a moment's notice. It's a small thing with a potentially large payoff. C *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 5/14/2004 11:07:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time, al.m_at_3web.net writes: > It is difficult to avoid it in an extended (7+ days) self-supported trip, > especially when fresh water is a problem. I'm pretty sure it was a freshwater trip, as they were on Lake Baikal. By the way, I'm not a fanatic on either side of the equation (pro or con deck loads), but I do try to avoid loads that look like they will create difficult rescue scenarios, excessive windage or water pressure on the baggage itself. If you look at some of the photos, you can see a drybag nearly the size of a GI Duffel on the back. At times they appear to be stacked to neck height. Then, there are the peli cases and another large drybag up front. Oh, and yes, the battery charging solar panels look very cool. Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "alex" <al.m_at_3web.net> > It is difficult to avoid it in an extended (7+ days) self-supported trip, > especially when fresh water is a problem. Be it deck fore and aft bags, > tubes with fishing poles or anything else. Unless you are using very wide > high-volume boat, - which is a bus to paddle rest of the year. Ah, the beauty of building S&G kayaks rather than buying production glass boats. They are cheap enough you can have one for every occasion. A day boat, surf boat, weekend boat and the "Coleman gas grill for the steaks and half a truck bed of seasoned firewood" boat to include a day hatch full of dry ice and imported beer. I haven't picked that design yet but the Coho looks like it has potential.......Notice I neatly left the expense of the marriage counselor out of the cost of making your own boat. Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, 14 May 2004 16:45:51 -0400, "Jim Farrelly" <JFarrelly5_at_comcast.net> said: > Ah, the beauty of building S&G kayaks rather than buying production > glass > boats. They are cheap enough you can have one for every occasion. <snip> > .....Notice I neatly left the expense of the > marriage counselor out of the cost of making your own boat. Nor did you mention hiding your hiding in your half basement while you built the last one, so that your wife wouldn't find out you were building - again.... -- Kirk Olsen kork4_at_cluemail.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirk Olsen" <kork4_at_cluemail.com> > > .....Notice I neatly left the expense of the > > marriage counselor out of the cost of making your own boat. > > Nor did you mention hiding your hiding in your half basement while you > built the last one, > so that your wife wouldn't find out you were building - again.... > -- > Kirk Olsen > kork4_at_cluemail.com If I ever post pics of my "shop" on a web page I am not sure I would be believed. It looks a bit like the tunnel on Hogan's Heros. Perhaps smaller. At least its very linear which counts for a lot in kayak building. DAMN YOU KIRK FOR OUTING ME! Jim *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jim etal said, "If I ever post pics of my "shop" on a web page I am not sure I would be believed." I say, I have seen it......been in it while he was building his first kayak and I still don't believe it! It looks more like a hobbit hole or a rabbit cave. But it does make me feel better about my crowded garage where I have built two strip built kayaks. Ronnie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rob posted: >Speaking of deck loads: anyone see the deck loads, fore and aft, in the current Sea Kayaker?< Yeah, I noticed that too. Personally, I don't mind paddlers with deck-cargo loads, as long as there is some kind of systematic approach to the issue, including secure lashings, a low-as-possible-profile spread, and some prior thought and/or testing of self-rescue with said load on boat. A large duffel bag, stuffed tight, riding high can be a liability. I prefer a large bag loaded to 3/4 its capacity, or, a series of smaller, slender gear bags that meet my criteria for spread and curvature, retaining a lower profile overall - and arrangement that seems so much more secure/flat when well lashed. Perhaps a paddler who is _habitually_ over-loaded requires a different boat. SOT paddlers should have a recessed well if they want top cargo loads. As far as an excessive windage profile being created (especially with higher-profile gear bags), there are situations where paddling in wind can be aided OR inhibited by such loads. I don't think large duffel bags on a rear deck with excessive items on the foredeck would be considered normal practice for open sea kayaking, but what the heck is normal anymore in today's world of neo-sea touring opinion and practice? Certainly for lake paddling close to shore, I'd not advocate against such loads, though I wouldn't promote it either. Besides, kayak's are sluggish in fresh water, and I'd try to travel lighter and faster. I have run open water in earlier years with well-secured deck loads (small waterproof gear bags on back deck, custom lashing, with lightweight items only, for trips over a week long and water was available). Since those earlier days, I've modified my Nordkapp for optimum storage capacity, and also use compression bags to tighten up interior gear with items that have a lot of loft. I still could not accommodate a long trip where I needed my own water along. I noticed a review of the new Nordkapp (H20) in the same issue of SK; there was a bit of debate in the subtext that came through regarding storage capacity. I think for larger/taller paddlers anticipation top-side cargo loads, something like a Necky Eskia would be a better choice. No matter what deck loads are carried, spare paddle access can't be forgotten. I used to take a canoe paddle on my front deck when rear loads would obliterate access to the rear-mounted two-part paddle. BTW, there was an incident back east a few years ago where a paddler carrying firewood on his deck died paddling. The incident was never fully reviewed or published due to family grief issues, so that's something not so humorous. As an aside, I counted just over 100 pictures of paddlers seated in a kayak, in the excellent 20th Anniversary issue of Sea Kayaker. Of this number, 7 were not wearing an obvious buoyancy aid (PFD, etc.). Not sure how many folks notice that sort of stuff. (This number of 100 plus did not include pictures of paddlers on book covers or where the image was too small). I do admit there is just something correct looking about a paddler, wearing a PFD, in a kayak clear of all gear save a spare paddle. Idealism, is, well ideal. Last note: Did you catch the "last glace" pictures at the end of the magazine? It's my friend Scott who took over the To'ki business from Dave when he gave up paddling after the Storm Island incident. Scott's dog, also called To'ki, can be seen "walking around the kayak" on a tied on towel for foot-purchase, while Scott rolls his sea kayak. Scott is one of Vancouver Islands finer paddlers, a great, great guy, BCU the whole way. When it comes to Scott's deck load, now,_that's_ a different animal. :-) Rob G Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 16:14:18 -0400 From: Steve Cramer <cramersec_at_charter.net> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Back Deck Storage Keith Wrage wrote: > So in everyone's opinion, should anything like a sleeping bag or > sleeping pad be carried on that back deck? > > How many people DO have something on the back deck for a 7 day trip? I'd say a sleeping pad is better than the 4 pieces of firewood I was assigned to carry one trip. Sort of Canadian Ballast Rocks(TM) in reverse. - -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA Doug Lloyd Victoria BC ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ "Whatever can be said at all can be said clearly and whatever cannot be said clearly should not be said at all." Ludwig Wittgenstein ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Rob posted: > >Speaking of deck loads: anyone see the deck loads, fore and > aft, in the > current Sea Kayaker?< > Gee, I thought those large bags were inflated self righting aids. (gr). Steve Holtzman Southern CA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 09:16 AM 5/16/2004 -0700, Doug Lloyd wrote: >Rob posted: > >Speaking of deck loads: anyone see the deck loads, fore and aft, in the >current Sea Kayaker?< > >Yeah, I noticed that too. Personally, I don't mind paddlers with deck-cargo >loads, as long as there is some kind of systematic approach to the issue, >including secure lashings, a low-as-possible-profile spread, and some prior >thought and/or testing of self-rescue with said load on boat. I just wanted to highlight this particular sentence. There have been a range of opinions in this thread regarding what should be (or should not be) stored on deck, but IMHO that last sentence fragment is what is really important. Some people might choose to paddle with a completely clear rear deck while other may feel that lashing a sleeping bag or tent in a dry bag onto the rear deck would be okay. What's really important is whether or not *anything* lashed to the rear deck is going to impede a reentry and the time to find out is under controlled conditions, not during a real trip under unpredictable conditions. Even if you don't put anything on the rear deck it's not a bad idea to practice/test re-entries under controlled conditions in a boat loaded as you intend to do so for a multiday trip. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John Fereira said: > Even if you don't put anything on the rear deck > it's not a bad idea to practice/test re-entries under > controlled conditions in a boat loaded as you intend to do so > for a multiday trip. John's statement should be GOSPEL for all paddlers. Last week, a bunch of us took a second guiding class from Wayne Horodowich. At the end of the day we learned a very important lesson. We had already spent most of the day swimming, paddling, towing boats and swimmers, rolling, and doing re-entries and most of us were exhausted and a little bit cold from fatigue and the water temps. At this time, the wind had kicked up and the swell and wind waves had also kicked up quite a bit. We then went to the outside of a breakwater to practice solo re-entries as close as possible to the breakwater. Now we had to contend with very confused water as we not only had the swell and waves breaking against the breakwater, but we also had the reflected waves coming off of it. In the interest of safety, we only had 1/2 the class in the water at a time, and each swimmer had a designated safety boat to tow him/her away from the rocks if needed. Although this class was composed of very skilled paddlers, as Wayne said--"This is when you guys will find yourself swimming.....at the end of a long tiring day, when the sea conditions have kicked up, and you weren't paying attention." It was very sobering to find that the rescue skills we practice frequently, were so much more difficult to do in these conditions. All of us had practiced these skills in similar sea conditions--but not when we were so tired. Needless to say, we will be repeating this exercise a lot. Doing rescues and re-entries in calm water is great for teaching a beginner, but don't think that just because you can do it on flat water that it will be easy to do in very rough water. Steve Holtzman Southern CA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Holtzman" <sh_at_actglobal.net> > It was very sobering to find that the rescue skills we practice frequently, > were so much more difficult to do in these conditions. All of us had > practiced these skills in similar sea conditions--but not when we were so > tired. > Steve Holtzman Last summer I practiced "rough water" reentry with a friend. The rough water consisted of 18 INCH waves in five feet of water. We curled up with our feet off the sand to pretend we could not touch. It was interesting to say the least. The most surprising part was catching a manned kayak nose first square in the chest with a lot of force behind it. The PFD took the edge off the impact and probably saved a trip to the ER. Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
G'Day, I remember once having nothing but a deck bag on the deck. Secured by bungee cords. When I came to do a roll nothing worked, it was as if the deck was anchored to the sea floor. The bag had filled with water and as I rolled it slipped off the deck acting as a very effective "sea anchor" holdng me upside down. Holding the bag in place with rigid cord would have been OK but these days I travel with only a vhf, spare paddles, map and sometimes water on the deck. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug wrote: >>>>>>>>Besides, kayak's are sluggish in fresh water<<<<< If this is not tongue in cheek please explain the reason you say this. Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Doug wrote: >>>>>>>>>Besides, kayak's are sluggish in fresh water<<<<< > >If this is not tongue in cheek please explain the reason you say this. Fresh water is less dense. Hence, the displacement of kayak's hull is greater. More wetted area equals a more 'sluggish' feel. Brian *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Fresh water is less dense. Hence, the displacement of kayak's hull > is greater. More wetted area equals a more 'sluggish' feel. This was the first explanation that occured to me. Another one is that less dense fresh water provides less thrust (and takes less efforts) at every stroke; on the other hand, there is also less resistance to forward movement. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Someone said: > Fresh water is less dense. Hence, the displacement of kayak's hull > is greater. More wetted area equals a more 'sluggish' feel. The density difference is about 3 per cent. That translates to less than 0.12 inches greater immersion for a typical sea kayak, or, about what an extra ten pounds of cargo would cause. I challenge you to do some single-blind testing of your kayak's "sluggishness" with (and then without) ten pounds of cargo added, five pounds forward, and five pounds aft. I'll bet a pitcher of high-quality designer beer you can't tell when you've got the ten pounds aboard. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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