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From: <Harley1941_at_aol.com>
subject: [Paddlewise] PFD For A Man With A Gut
Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 09:48:18 EDT
I need a new PFD. I have been using a Lotus Rio Grande and have trouble with 
it riding up. I loosen all the straps before donning the PFD then start at the 
bottom tightening them up as I was instructed. I can get a comfortable fit 
one out of four times, if I just about cut my breath off. If I adjust it to be 
comfortable, It will ride up to my chin when in the water and while I am 
paddling.

I have been looking at the Stohlquist line of PFDs, but I have no input on 
them. The web site claims no ride up. http://www.stohlquist.com/RecTourpfd.html 
I hope someone on Paddlewise uses them and can give me some info. Preferably 
from some guy with a gut (mine is not a beer gut but it kinda looks like one, 
get the idea)? I am 5 foot 10 inches and weigh in the 225-230 pound range.

Some of the whitewater vest look good too. I tried on my friend Jim's (of 
Paddlewise fame) but he is a lot smaller than I and it took both of us to get it 
on and off.

Thanks,
Ronnie
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From: Joseph Pylka <jpylka_at_earthlink.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] PFD For A Man With A Gut
Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 10:39:16 -0400
	Alas, I too am becoming spherically challenged....
No matter the construction/configuration of the PFD, if your lower portions
are wider than the upper then it will inevitably ride up.  There is no PFD
that can defy this low of physics.  However, not a few PFDs have little
loops here and there on the Inside.  They are for strap or webbing
attachments for crotch straps.  That appears to be the only way to keep the
pfd at the proper position for safety's sake.  After a short time I'm
unaware of its being there and it sure improves the safety aspects.

Joe P.
> I need a new PFD. I have been using a Lotus Rio Grande and have trouble
with 
> it riding up.
> I have been looking at the Stohlquist line of PFDs, but I have no input
on 
> them. The web site claims no ride up. 
> I hope someone on Paddlewise uses them and can give me some info.
Preferably 
> from some guy with a gut (mine is not a beer gut but it kinda looks like
one, 
> get the idea)? I am 5 foot 10 inches and weigh in the 225-230 pound range.
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From: Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] PFD For A Man With A Gut
Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 07:42:09 -0700
Harley1941_at_aol.com wrote:

>>I need a new PFD. I have been using a Lotus Rio Grande and have trouble
with
it riding up. I loosen all the straps before donning the PFD then start at
the
bottom tightening them up as I was instructed. I can get a comfortable fit
one out of four times, if I just about cut my breath off. If I adjust it to
be
comfortable, It will ride up to my chin when in the water and while I am
paddling.>>

Harley, you and I are about the same size and shape.  For our "inverted V"
style upper bodies, there is no cut or magic strap arrangement for a PFD that
will avoid the ride-up problem.  I suggest you consider a crotch strap
installation.  Often sold with PFD's for small kids, if you want to go look
at how it's done, and then get someone to sew one onto your PFD.

--
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
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From: Leonhardt, William J <wjleonhardt_at_bnl.gov>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] PFD For A Man With A Gut
Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 10:52:44 -0400
At 07:42 AM 5/26/2004 -0700, Dave Kruger wrote:
>

SNIP

>                                             .  I suggest you consider a 
> crotch strap
>installation.  Often sold with PFD's for small kids, if you want to go look
>at how it's done, and then get someone to sew one onto your PFD.
>
>--

Dave, et al,

I regularly wear my PFD over my sprayskirt tunnel.  In that case, would the 
crotch strap have to be fastened to the top of the PFD?

Bill Leonhardt
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From: Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] PFD For A Man With A Gut
Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 08:01:46 -0700
Yeah, that's why I don't use a crotch strap.  I don't have a good cure for
this.

I suppose, someone could adapt attachments which melded the PFD to the skirt,
and then crotch strap the skirt on.  Sound's kinda kinky, but might work

--
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Leonhardt, William J" <wjleonhardt_at_bnl.gov>
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] PFD For A Man With A Gut

> I regularly wear my PFD over my sprayskirt tunnel.  In that case, would the
> crotch strap have to be fastened to the top of the PFD?
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From: Carey Parks <cparks_at_fuse.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] PFD For A Man With A Gut
Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 11:42:38 -0400
----- Original Message -----
I suppose, someone could adapt attachments which melded the PFD to the
skirt,
and then crotch strap the skirt on.  Sound's kinda kinky, but might work
--
Dave Kruger


Hmmm, now you've got me thinking. When a spray skirt is worn, it becomes
part of the paddler/PFD/thermal protection system. When you wet exit, all of
the above come with. Since I never have trouble with the spray skirt tunnel
riding up, nor the PFD riding down, could "fasteners" at the top of the
tunnel sides attaching to the PFD serve to hold the tunnel up and the PFD
down? Seems like it would allow the required movement etc.

Only complication is the case where the paddler wants to jettison the skirt
while swimming. Maybe because they are accepting a rescue tow while
swimming. Is this a concern? This might influence the choice of fastener.

Carey
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From: RAPHAEL RENTA <renta_at_prodigy.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] PFD For A Man With A Gut
Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 09:36:37 -0700 (PDT)
I had the same problem and solved it with thigh straps
not crotch straps. I saw this in a very expensive PFD
and easily adapted the idea to my own. Now I can
breathe because I don't need to put the PFD on quite
so tightly. In addition I know that, should I have to
bail out, my PFD will absolutely not ride up. I have a
sea kaayking spray skirt that just goes right over the
thigh straps, no shoulder straps. Works like a charm.

I wish I had done this a long time again.

Rafa
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From: John MacKechnie <bigmac1_at_enter.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] PFD For A Man With A Gut
Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 16:18:14 -0400
I'm not sure I understand the thigh straps arrangement. Could you give us a
description?

John M

> I had the same problem and solved it with thigh straps
> not crotch straps. I saw this in a very expensive PFD
> and easily adapted the idea to my own. Now I can
> breathe because I don't need to put the PFD on quite
> so tightly. In addition I know that, should I have to
> bail out, my PFD will absolutely not ride up. I have a
> sea kaayking spray skirt that just goes right over the
> thigh straps, no shoulder straps. Works like a charm.
>
> I wish I had done this a long time again.
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From: Jim Farrelly <JFarrelly5_at_comcast.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] PFD For A Man With A Gut
Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 11:34:46 -0400
Why not attach the crotch strap higher up on the Vest so that you could run
it down inside the spray skirt tube?  You could attach it on the outside
front of the vest and flip the strap  inward and run it down through the
tube and under your crotch.  It all sounds so painful.  My kids hate their
crotch straps.

Jim et al

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dave Kruger" <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>
> I suppose, someone could adapt attachments which melded the PFD to the
skirt,
> and then crotch strap the skirt on.  Sound's kinda kinky, but might work
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From: Michael Daly <mikedaly_at_magma.ca>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] PFD For A Man With A Gut
Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 17:18:49 -0400
On 26 May 2004 at 11:34, Jim Farrelly wrote:

> Why not attach the crotch strap higher up on the Vest so that you
> could run it down inside the spray skirt tube?  You could attach it on
> the outside front of the vest and flip the strap  inward and run it
> down through the tube and under your crotch.

What we tell members of our club is to attach the strap to the skirt. 
Cut a slit thru the skirt to pass the strap thru and then glue in 
place - Aquaseal will do.   Then use Fastex buckles to attach the 
strap to the PFD.  

If the crotch strap is uncomfortable, I wonder if you couldn't attach 
the PFD to a pair of heavy duty paddling shorts, suspender style?  
Neoprene shorts, for example.

Mike
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From: <Harley1941_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] PFD For A Man With A Gut
Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 13:52:32 EDT
Rafa,
Would you happen to have a photo of your strap set up?

Ronnie
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From: RAPHAEL RENTA <renta_at_prodigy.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] PFD For A Man With A Gut
Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 15:06:01 -0700 (PDT)
Judging by the replies and obvious interest it looks
like there are quite a number of us abdominally
challenged folks out there. Here's how I did my very
cheap fix for our mutual problem. I have Voyageur FZ
(front zipper) PFD. It has three horizontal adjustment
straps on each side. I just got two cheap 1/2 inch
wide straps, plastic buckles and clips, like you can
find in any outdoor gear store, and tied each one
around the lower strap on either side of the PFD. Then
just wrap the strap around your thigh and clip it
together. If the strap is too long just cut off the
excess. End of corset-like PFD, end of purple face
from lack of oxygen, end of PFD trying to climb up
your nose upon immersion.

Rafa


--- Harley1941_at_aol.com wrote:
> Rafa,
> Would you happen to have a photo of your strap set
> up?
> 
> Ronnie
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From: John MacKechnie <bigmac1_at_enter.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] PFD For A Man With A Gut
Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 16:13:18 -0400
Run two straps. One on each side of the um.....package.

John MacKechnie
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jim Farrelly" <JFarrelly5_at_comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] PFD For A Man With A Gut


> Why not attach the crotch strap higher up on the Vest so that you could
run
> it down inside the spray skirt tube?  You could attach it on the outside
> front of the vest and flip the strap  inward and run it down through the
> tube and under your crotch.  It all sounds so painful.  My kids hate their
> crotch straps.
>
> Jim et al
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From: Wes Boyd <boydwe_at_dmci.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] PFD For A Man With A Gut
Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 13:02:19
At 09:48 AM 5/26/04 EDT, Harley1941_at_aol.com wrote:
>I need a new PFD. I have been using a Lotus Rio Grande and have trouble with 
>it riding up. I loosen all the straps before donning the PFD then start at
the 
>bottom tightening them up as I was instructed. I can get a comfortable fit 
>one out of four times, if I just about cut my breath off. If I adjust it
to be 
>comfortable, It will ride up to my chin when in the water and while I am 
>paddling.

Just to take a different approach to the problem, several years ago I went
to an inflatable vest. Since the flotation is all on one side and the
fastening is higher, I haven't had any problems with it.

One of the nice things about an inflatable is that it will float your head
out of water. Solid PFDs may not.

-- Wes
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Kayaks for Big Guys (And Gals) | Trip Reports | Places To Go | Boats & Gear
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From: Doug Lloyd <dalloyd_at_telus.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] PFD For A Man With A Gut
Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 17:49:36 -0700
Wes posted:
>Just to take a different approach to the problem, several years ago I went
to an inflatable vest. Since the flotation is all on one side and the
fastening is higher, I haven't had any problems with it. One of the nice
things about an inflatable is that it will float your head
out of water. Solid PFDs may not.<

That was my solution to my possible dissolution from sinking after loosing
my PFD. While I don't have severe Dunlop disease (it dun lopeth over, the
gut that is), it seemed no matter what PFD I tried, they all had a tendency
to ride up in the types of commotion that would force me into the water.
Riding low in the water while trying to set up fixed outriggers for a
paddlefloat re-entries, etc., really can be disheartening. With my older
PFD's, I just added a crotch strap, coiled and ready on the back of the PFD,
available when I needed it. Even with the newer PFD's I subsequently
purchased, ones made to prevent ride-up, I'd still have to cinch too much,
causing more chafing particularly when a drytop was worn, or worse, a nasty
rash/itch would develop in the area of my chest hairs.

I certainly would not want to paddle in the kind of conditions I choose
these days, and still remain in my comfort zone, unless I knew all my
equipment and gear worked properly, as designed to, or was modified to my
specifications or altered to provide a wider safety margin. This is an
integral part of my philosophy. New gear and any modified gear, should of
course, be given sea trials (or in bodies of fresh water if you insist). One
need not be anal about this gear testing, just carry it through to a
reasonable level commensurate with the type of paddling usually undertaken.
I may be a half-wit even on my best days, but I do recognize the importance
of _essential_ proper gear, and personal flotation in particular. I have
stories about PFD issues that would easily fill a few digest versions.

Doug Lloyd
Victoria BC
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From: Steve Holtzman <sh_at_actglobal.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] PFD For A Man With A Gut
Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 06:25:56 -0700
Doug Lloyd said:

> I have stories about PFD issues that 
> would easily fill a few digest versions.
> 
> Doug Lloyd
> Victoria BC


Doug,

Any chance of your sharing them with us either on Paddlewise, in Sea Kayaker
Mag, or.........even a book?

Steve Holtzman
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From: Doug Lloyd <dalloyd_at_telus.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] PFD For A Man With A Gut
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 23:49:54 -0700
Steve Holtzman said:
>Any chance of your sharing them with us either on Paddlewise, in Sea
Kayaker Mag, or.........even a book?<

I'm waaaay behind with articles for Sea Kayaker these days, but really have
been up and down with health the past few year (fibrillation was back again
this past weekend, drats!) .

A book? Too many out there these days - then there's all the effort for
little return financially, though I hope Rev. Bob gets published one day as
he has an articulate, natural way with the fusion of spirituality and
padding-outdoors adventure. A book by me would be full of my mistakes over
the years. I can hear my published buddies howling already. Besides, once
John Lull's very positive book came out, nothing could replace it in my
opinion - certainly nothing by me.

As far as PFD's, most of my issues are past history. PFD's for paddlers are
so much better than ever before for most individuals. I do keep a normal PFD
around for surf duty, and use the inflatable type for touring/storm
paddling.

I noticed a few posts about PFDs with integral tow belts. Actually, any PFD
with a facility for a web belt can be easily converted to a tow rig by
replacing the belt with a tow-belt tow line (the kind that deploys from a
bag on the back, with quick release on the front). Anyone wanting a e-mail
attachment of this set-up can give me a shout back channel (my buddy won't
mind me sharing the shot).

I've done a lot of cold-water swims over the years, some with my boat, some
without. In some cases, I had to remove my PFD for certain reasons. Good
buoyancy sure helps with rescue set-ups, but makes swimming much slower.
That's why I like my inflatable, though you do sit in the water much lower
unless you inflate it, so it's a trade off.

My only recent issue with PFDs was a few years ago now, just after my flesh
eating disease episode, where I took off paddling too soon after hospital
discharge. I was very dizzy at the time and blew an offside roll, came out,
could not re-enter, and figured it was easier to swim to shore (took 20
minutes) with my kayak in tow. The inflatable cartridge was used to inflate
the vest, as I was getting that "sinking feeling" without it inflated, of
course. Even though the swim was slow and cold, it was nice being lifted
high out of the water with 35 lbs of buoyancy and no chance of drowning if I
did black out.

Guess if I could relay anything to this list, it is that unless you are a
trained ocean swimmer or something like that, the need to swim to shore even
over relatively short distances is a very poor back-up plan. Distances that
look relatively short while seated in your boat are amazingly far away once
swimming in the water. The same can be said with respect to swimming in
opposing tidal currents and contradictory undertow in heavy surf zones or
river discharge over bars (don't ask?). I would never contemplate surfing
without a PFD, though I know some don't wear one, which is the freedom of
choice all good democracy's allow for.

All of my many PFD's over the years have been modified to some extent. I
currently use a Mustang inflatable with left and right rescue pouches with a
Kokatat hydration/gear backpack intricately sew on the back. Most tent and
awning shops or shoe repair facilities can sew through heavy webbing.

And then there was the time I swam in heavy wool trousers/ running shoes in
near hurricane-force winds, boat blown away, inadequate buoyancy from my
cheap British PFD, and struggling to keep my lips above water level...

Doug Lloyd
Victoria BC
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From: Robert Woodard <woody_at_kayaktrips.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] PFD For A Man With A Gut
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 12:07:18 -0400
> I have been using a Lotus Rio Grande and 
> have trouble with it riding up.

A trick that I have heard works for 'some' people on various PFDs is to pull
the side straps out of the buckles and crisscross them so that they pull
diagonally when cinched down.

YMMV,

Woody

Woody's Kayak Trip Reports
http://www.kayaktrips.net/
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