Michael: > Well as the author of the "Chopped Seguin" I can vouch that Rob Briant was > payed his 100 $ for the plans. I have only bult one "Seguin" > I built the boat 5 yrs ago only 2 weeks ago I attacked it w/ the skillsaw. > http://community.webshots.com/user/qajaliorqti > the hull is a per-plans built Seguin only cut and lowered for a tighter more > traditional fit. > The yellow Chupacabras (see album) was built using a kit that I cut > originally to the Seguin design, but after playing w/ the Carlson Design > Hulls program I totally re-cut and really retains little of the original. This is exactly the sort of design process that produces better and different boats. I think this is a permissible and creative method of trying out ideas. But if Rob Bryant adopted Matt's attitude, would a chop down of his design be a rip off? Does the Chupacabras demand royalties? I don't think so. The Seguin was just a starting point. Both boats look great. Is the stitch and glue hull combined with a fabric deck watertight and robust? Cheers, PT *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I recently re-subscribed to this list after a couple of years away from it, and glad to see the quality of discussions remains high. This debate is complex and I find it interesting, please keep it on the list. The variety of kayak designs is one of the great attractions of our sport. I reckon that most variations in design have probably already been done before though, true innovations being rare, so all design to some extent is ripping off someone else before you. "a long narrow pointy boat with decks - you can't build that, its my design". I think not. I've also yet to find a commercial design that I don't want to modify in some way. If we take the nadgee/max discussion at face value it would also seem apparent that it is entirely possible to independently come up with the same shapes. There is after all a lot of precedent for co-evolution in the natural world. The legal issues do however mirror in many ways the licence/legal issues in software design, where opportunity for re-using code or ideas are legion. Licence models exist in the software world from highly controlling legal agreements to open source (which nonetheless usually have conditions attached). I think if a designer attaches conditions to use or sale of their designs then that is their privilege and should be respected. When you buy into a commercial design you buy into the designers conditions. My personal preference is for the open source ethic though which I believe can often develop ideas more readily than more closed commercial development. My only kayak design, the harpoon (a 19ft by 19inch beam play boat http://www.abdn.ac.uk/~ltu006/images/kayak/stitchnglue/, unashamedly copies hard chine Greenland shapes). I would like to see 'Harpoons' built by as many people who would enjoy or learn from them, and thus if anyone would like the lines they are welcome to them ... I have but two conditions 1. that they aren't built for commercial profit and 2. builders let me know how they get on with the design. Similarly if anyone wishes to modify my shape, I'd be happy if they do so as long as they don't blame me for the resulting loss in performance ;-) Incidentally 1. I most likely wouldn't have got around to drawing or building this boat if it wasn't for lurking on this and the former wave~length list. Incidentally 2. I most likely wouldn't have drawn it without Gregg Carlson's free for non commercial use hull design program, and if I were to sell the design I violate his conditions .... Incidentally 3. The cockpit would be a different shape if I hadn't had a pintail sitting around when I made it! Incidetally 4. The boat would be a completely different shape if I hadn't paddled all of the kayaks I paddled before I made it! Cheers Colin www.kayakscotland.com -----Original Message----- This is exactly the sort of design process that produces better and different boats. I think this is a permissible and creative method of trying out ideas. But if Rob Bryant adopted Matt's attitude, would a chop down of his design be a rip off? Does the Chupacabras demand royalties? I don't think so. The Seguin was just a starting point. Both boats look great. Is the stitch and glue hull combined with a fabric deck watertight and robust? Cheers, PT *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Treby" <ptreby_at_ozemail.com.au> > This is exactly the sort of design process that produces better and > different boats. I think this is a permissible and creative method of trying > out ideas. But if Rob Bryant adopted Matt's attitude, would a chop down of > his design be a rip off? Personaly I feel I could not build and market a chopped (lowered only as I did) version of the Seguin without some form of compensation to Mr Briant. It is a Seguin and anyone could take measurement from it and prove it is his hull design. I would not do so anyhow as it is not a particularly wonderful design. It is fine and I have a sentimental attachment to it as it was the first kayak I built, and I do not wish to detract from his work, but it does have several faults one would need to correct. Firstly it pushes water like the Anas. It carries a lot of its width from the seat position to about where your feet would be and this interupts the flow of things. It also has a nagging weather cocking problem I corrected w/ a permanent skeg. > Does the Chupacabras demand royalties? I don't > think so. Here I agree with you as it would be had to find any real numbers simmilarities with the Seguin. a completely different boat. > Both boats look great. Is the stitch and glue hull combined with a fabric > deck watertight and robust? Thanks. The soft deck is rugged enough when compared to a skin on frame boat. Is it something that will stand up the test of time??? only time will tell. It is water tight?? yes, and the idea of the polyetheline tube inside a sleve as a coaming is real nice. It is flexible,(depreses out of the way on lay-back manouvers) light, simple and works well. It is not my original idea as I coppied it from the Maynard/Lewis boat in VT. http://www.qajaqusa.org/gallery/madness_2004/Brians_Qajaq http://www.qajaqusa.org/gallery/madness_2004/507_G michael *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
What Michael has done with the chopped Seguin is completely above-board, IMHO. He's still calling it what it is--a Seguin; a chopped Seguin. Maybe the chopped deck wasn't Mr. Briant's original intention, but it's Michael's boat, and I feel that he should be free to do whatever he wants to do with it...chopping it, lifting it, burning it at Burning Man. If he were to sell chopped Seguins commercially, he should feel the need to come to an arrangement with Rob Briant (and Michael has already noted this). The panels may have been cut for panels that were once destined for another Seguin, but if Michael came up with new drawings on paper (as opposed to simply tweaking Seguin panel dimensions), applied them to the recycled Seguin panels, and recut them, it's his own. You could fit panels for any S&G kayak under the sun out of a set of Chesapeake 18 panels!! I'm confused why this kayak became part of the discussion of the Nadgee and the Max. Why is this a discussion at all? If you have any question about the ethics of what you are doing, don't justify it with an Internet discussion. Speak openly and honestly and _directly_ with the original designer (if you're "influenced" by someone else's work), and go from there. If someone is copying your design, take them to task. Telling everyone else isn't going to solve the problem. On one hand, I agree with the discussion of the ethics involved. On the other, as Steve Brown's semiconductor analogy notes, why is everything so "defensible" in sea kayaks? In freestyle whitewater boats, if you don't at least build and improve on the other guy's hot boat from last year, you get left behind. (this is merely the formula for keeping up, not getting ahead) Whatever happened to Perception's whitewater kayaks? They used to rule the market. Now they're producing unique recreational kayaks (just like everybody else). What happened to Riot when Corran Addison left? Stagnation. Now Dragorossi is hot. Wavesport slowed bigtime when EJ left. Now his own Jackson kayaks are going to be hot. Pyranha almost disappeared until their latest series of boats, and they're back in the action. Dagger rested on their laurels after the RPM, and only a year or two ago jumped back up with the Kingpins. Did Perception's whitewater line all but die because someone made a better Pirouette (or Dancer or Mirage!)? Did Dagger slow because someone else was making knockoffs of RPM's? Are Corran and EJ worrying about other manufacturers copying the old 007 or X? No, they're moving on and up, and creating fresh new designs. I'm not saying this to justify copying, but jeez, whitewater kayaks show continuous development, lots of it from stepping up from the shoulders of others. Like the boats or not, kudos for WS for the Tempest, and to Necky for the Chatham...at least they're not sitting back, offering Cape Horns and Looksha's in new gelcoat colors, and worrying if someone is copying their ideas. Or if you take the tack that the greatest sea kayaks have already been designed, and there's no room for innovation such as seen in the whitewater or semiconductor market, then we're all just copying the Inuit and Aleuts. Shawn Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Shawn wrote: - SNIP >Why is this a discussion at all? If you have any question about the >ethics of what you are doing, don't justify it with an Internet >discussion. Speak openly and honestly and _directly_ with the original >designer (if you're "influenced" by someone else's work), and go from >there. >If someone is copying your design, take them to task. Telling everyone >else isn't going to solve the problem. >On one hand, I agree with the discussion of the ethics involved. SNIP >Or if you take the tack that the greatest sea kayaks have already been >designed, and there's no room for innovation such as seen in the >whitewater or semiconductor market, then we're all just copying the >Inuit and Aleuts. G'Day Shawn and Paddlewise, Very well said. I wonder what people think are the criteria for a truly great sea kayak and if it could possibly be designed? (And if so when and how much :~) ). I'ld also be extremely interested if it were possible to describe a set of 'design rules of thumb' describing how different aspects of a kayak influence its performance and how paddling technique inteacts with those design features. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 12 Aug 2004 at 8:41, Shawn Baker wrote: > No, they're moving on and up, and creating fresh new designs. One could also argue that they are chasing the latest WW fads. River running has given way to sitting in one spot and playing. Those that love river running could argue that their aspect of the sport has been given short shrift by the industry. Sea kayak fads aren't what I'd like to see. I just finished most of a week in Georgian Bay with the usual suspects and a couple of new paddlers. The newbies were full of questions about what kayak to buy. When us old farts start talking about what we like in various models and start describing the "perfect" kayak, it isn't a new design, but simply combining elements of existing designs. We want good, reasonably fast, decent handling kayaks with adequate storage and ease of loading and unloading. One of the newbies had an Alvik from Boreal Designs. Bungies instead of lifelines? Duh! So we start taking features from Seaward (rudder pedals, paddle float rescue tie down etc), features from Current Designs (levered closures on nice solid hatch covers) etc. The total product is simply the best of the best - nothing needs to be invented since what we see is adequate. Radically different, half-good designs every year aren't what I'd like. One solid design every decade would be an improvement. None of this touches on hull design - that combination of speed and handling that comes from experience, trial and error and hard work. Even an idiot like me can layout a deck and outfit a kayak. Designing a hull that really works is something that should be respected and protected. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mike posted (snip): >Designing a hull that really works is something that should be respected and protected.< Amazing how a simple, well-placed sentence can give a much needed summary to a long, Olympic-sized thread. Well done Mike. Doug Lloyd (who has appreciated the thread for some of related and unrelated information) Victoria BC ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ "Whatever can be said at all can be said clearly and whatever cannot be said clearly should not be said at all." Ludwig Wittgenstein ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:38 PDT