Michael Daly wrote: "Unfortunately, it forces you to make the further assumption that the ventilated blade works the same as an unventilated etc. Given the substantial difference in density between water and air, I'm doubtful." It forces me to make what assumption? The ventilated blade behaves quite differently, as I can both see and feel. Force produced is noticeably lower, and it is noisy, too. Ventilation is to be avoided, I find. GP's are good at avoiding it, if used properly. Some pretty amazing claims for the efficiency of high aspect ratio blades have been made in this forum. I am still trying to fathom why they do work as well as they do. I wonder if perhaps it is more of a control issue than one of efficiency? The force produced on a blade with flow across it chordally probably does not act through the centre of area. A wide blade has more moment arm for this force to act through, and the paddle would be harder to hold, as the shaft tries to twist. I have tried using my "euro" paddle this way, and it sucks, probably for this reason. Same for wide bladed canoe paddles. Rob. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 8 Sep 2004 at 14:52, Robert MacDonald wrote: > It forces me to make what assumption? The ventilated blade behaves > quite differently, as I can both see and feel. Well, that's one thing I'm getting at. If you can see the behavior of the interface between water and air when ventilated, it tells you nothing about the behavior of the paddle without ventilation. Hence, only a formally done test with standard indicators would be useful. > Some pretty amazing claims for the efficiency of high aspect ratio > blades have been made in this forum. I am still trying to fathom why > they do work as well as they do. They work well at certain things and not at others. I seem to be one of the only ones that claims that GPs are less efficient than Euros. There is some test evidence and some theoretical indications that would support that assumption. I know of no real solid evidence against this assumption. Test evidence includes tank tests that show efficiency increases as aspect ratio decreases. The theoretical is limited to the observation that moving large amounts of water at low velocity is more efficient than small amounts moved fast. It would appear that the GP does more of the latter. I also know that my GP will tire me out more than my Euro, though the Euro is tougher on my joints. Many others report the opposite fatigue effects, but personally, I question the objectivity. Personally, I was quite sceptical about the advantages of a GP over a Euro, so I had to be convinced by using and comparing them. I had no prior or current reason to convince the world that one is better than the other, hence I think I'm being relatively objective (though I may be incorrect - I can't _measure_ the fatigue effects). I favour the GP mainly because it's easier on my joints and I really like the fact that it's a lot quieter than any Euro I've used (I paddle in large part for peace and contentment - big wave thrills aside :-) It remains to be seen whether the efficiency can be measured to be greater or less. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I agree. Many-many (maybe too many) words follow. The purpose of an airplane wing is to produce enough lift to hold the airplane up in the air with minimal resistance to going forward. Going forward efficiently in an airplane is all about the lift-to-drag ratio. The main objective of the kayak paddle is ONLY producing lift (force perpendicular to the paddle face). This is all about maintaining high lift at high angles of attack. Analogous to an airplane wing used only for climbing without forward motion as an objective. The euro is obviously better for that. The "forward" motion of the paddle - the motion parallel to the blade surface - does not contribute to forward motion of the kayak. It only contributes to drag. This is working against the GL paddle. On the other hand, as you point out about your joints, the human body is not an indestructible machine. All the anecdotal accounts on this list have substantiated the lower stress of the Greenland paddle and a few (myself included) have experienced slightly higher SUSTAINED cruising speeds. Similarly, cyclists have minimum oxygen uptake at 40-to-60 RPM pedal cadences. Any serious cyclist knows that peddling high outputs at those low RPMs will destroy the knees in the long term and result in poor performance in the short term. 90-to-110 RPM is the norm. I first read about this in the 80s, but in the meantime other tests of body stress have been put to use: http://www.uth.tmc.edu/apstracts/2000/regulatory/October/355r.html That abstract and some other articles I looked at indicate that the extra stress on the body at lower RPMs is measurable, even if the oxygen uptake is lower for a given load. I'm guessing the same is true of paddling as with cycling. It's not just all about efficiently converting oxygen and fuel into forward motion. I didn't read any of the cycling articles all that carefully, but what I gleaned was that for long high intensity rides, oxygen uptake was not the limiting factor. Therefore, minimizing oxygen uptake was not necessarily the way to maximize performance. I never seem to paddle anywhere near my maximum aerobic output. The limitation seems to always be in my muscles and joints, not my heart and lungs. Somehow, over distance, the Greenland paddle may be more efficient for the whole body system. I wonder if any careful studies have been done on this as they have for cycling? This is not about winning races. Lets assume that gear has evolved recently to give the fastest speeds over race distances. This is about efficient pain free paddling over a lifetime. Did Inuits stumble on the narrow blade because they didn't have many big pieces of wood, or did they find by experience that they couldn't afford to have their bodies break down at the expense of being marginally faster for a few years? Steve Brown -----Original Message----- .......... Test evidence includes tank tests that show efficiency increases as aspect ratio decreases. The theoretical is limited to the observation that moving large amounts of water at low velocity is more efficient than small amounts moved fast. It would appear that the GP does more of the latter. ........ Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 9/8/2004 7:02:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time, steve_at_brown-web.net writes: > Did Inuits stumble on the narrow blade because they didn't have many big > pieces of wood, or did they find by experience that they couldn't afford to > have their bodies break down at the expense of being marginally faster for a > few years? > I like simple: a long, narrow blade that is easy to build and does most of what other types of blades do. Most importantly, it was part of a hunting kit. It is quiet, it doesn't throw water around. In the event of catching an animal, it is easy to manipulate the blade to help fill the larder, rather than hinder it. Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sep 9, 2004, at 11:29 AM, Rcgibbert_at_aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/8/2004 7:02:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > steve_at_brown-web.net writes: > > >> Did Inuits stumble on the narrow blade because they didn't have many >> big >> pieces of wood, or did they find by experience that they couldn't >> afford to >> have their bodies break down at the expense of being marginally >> faster for a >> few years? >> > I like simple: a long, narrow blade that is easy to build and does > most of > what other types of blades do. Most importantly, it was part of a > hunting kit. > It is quiet, it doesn't throw water around. In the event of catching > an animal, > it is easy to manipulate the blade to help fill the larder, rather than > hinder it. How does this response explain that the long, narrow blades of the modern Inuit style paddle is less than about 300 years old? Before that they had paddles with broad and short blades. If this type of blade was bad, why did they develop it and use it for a long time? Did those earlier hunters starve to death? http://home.pacifier.net/~qayaq/notes_on_early_greenlandic__kaya.htm Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 9/9/2004 8:59:53 AM Pacific Daylight Time, nick_at_guillemot-kayaks.com writes: > I like simple: a long, narrow blade that is easy to build and does > > most of > > what other types of blades do. Most importantly, it was part of a > > hunting kit. > > It is quiet, it doesn't throw water around. In the event of catching > > an animal, > > it is easy to manipulate the blade to help fill the larder, rather than > > hinder it. > > How does this response explain that the long, narrow blades of the > modern Inuit style paddle is less than about 300 years old? Before that > they had paddles with broad and short blades. If this type of blade was > bad, why did they develop it and use it for a long time? Did those > earlier hunters starve to death? As the website you linked suggests, not much is known of Thule culture paddles, those that precede what we assume to be Greenland Paddles. There are so many different types of paddles in use historically there I doubt it will ever be known what was most commonly used. As for the shape we commonly associate with a West Greenland style blade, it is understood to be 300 years old. In my local kayak store, a replica kayak built from a CE 1600's example by Harvey Golden has a paddle in the lanceolate, or leaf shaped tip, accompanying it. It is more long and slender than it is broad and short. http://www.traditionalkayaks.com/Kayakreplicas/WFM232.html Scroll down to the second image to see what I mean.This is a much subtler change than you suggest. So, why did it change? Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
No. They paddled in massive numbers to England and went into business manufacturing and selling Euro paddles :-) Steve Brown -----Original Message----- ......Did those earlier hunters starve to death?..... Nick Schade *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 9/9/2004 9:38:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time, steve_at_brown-web.net writes: > No. They paddled in massive numbers to England and went into business > manufacturing and selling Euro paddles :-) > > One of them, Derek's great-great-great grandfather, was also experimenting with sewing sealskin bulkheads into his qajaq. Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 9/9/2004 9:38:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time, steve_at_brown-web.net writes: > No. They paddled in massive numbers to England and went into business > manufacturing and selling Euro paddles :-) > One of them, Derek's great-great-great grandfather, was experimenting with sewing sealskin bulkheads into his qajaq at this time. Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> How does this response explain that the long, narrow blades of the > modern Inuit style paddle is less than about 300 years old? Before that > they had paddles with broad and short blades. If this type of blade was > bad, why did they develop it and use it for a long time? Did those > earlier hunters starve to death? No one knows. The lanceolate shape is far more common across the Arctic and other parts of the world than the Greenland shape, and must have advantages of its own. Some guesses: * The Greenlanders were inspired by the shape of European oars (John Brand). I don't find this convincing because the change did not include umiak oar blades, which remained short and broad. * A broader tip is less liable to damage from ice. This is just a guess; I have no evidence to back it up. H.C. Peterson says Greenland kayaks changed when they began to be used more in winter. Maybe the same is true of the paddles. * Greenlanders decided that shorter paddles were less cumbersome and easier to paddle with. Like modern paddlers, they moved from 245-cm paddles to 215-cm paddles. You can't shorten a lanceolate paddle without moving the widest part of the blade toward the center. * The modern Greenland paddle is easier to use with a sliding stroke. Which came first -- the sliding stroke or the paddle -- I don't know, but the sliding stroke makes a short paddle more versatile. If you can find the videos, compare the clumsy-looking paddle stroke in "Nanook of the North," in which a long paddle is used, to the graceful sliding stroke in the montage in "The Wedding of Palo." Of these four guesses, I think the last two are most likely. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sep 9, 2004, at 1:47 PM, cholst_at_bitstream.net wrote: >> How does this response explain that the long, narrow blades of the >> modern Inuit style paddle is less than about 300 years old? Before >> that >> they had paddles with broad and short blades. If this type of blade >> was >> bad, why did they develop it and use it for a long time? Did those >> earlier hunters starve to death? > > No one knows. The lanceolate shape is far more common across the Arctic > and other parts of the world than the Greenland shape, and must have > advantages of its own. Some guesses: > > * The Greenlanders were inspired by the shape of European oars... > > * A broader tip is less liable to damage from ice... > > * Greenlanders decided that shorter paddles were less cumbersome and > easier to paddle with... > > * The modern Greenland paddle is easier to use with a sliding stroke. > Of these four guesses, I think the last two are most likely... Or maybe it isn't any "better", just "different". Their paddling style evolved, the paddle evolved with it. New techniques became popular, old ones dropped away. This doesn't happen for strictly practical reasons. Like hemlines, the width and length varied with the contemporary paddling style. There is a common assumption that the current paddle is somehow "better" because it is the latest result of the ongoing evolution. Is an elephant "better" than a wholly mammoth? It is a meaningless question. They are different animals. Does the modern Inuit style paddle need to be better than an earlier example? Evolution doesn't make better things it just adapts things to suit their environment. Part of the environment of a paddle is the human mind which has a propensity towards fads and the latest styles and is very poor at quantitative evaluation. The Greenland style and Euro paddles each occupy their own niche in the human mind. Currently the Greenland takes advantage of the human tendency towards nostalgia and respect for "simpler" culture. The Euro occupies a niche that desires the "latest-greatest" technology. Often the "latest-greatest" is just the equivalent of "carbon-fiber" printed contact paper, it looks cool but doesn't do anything. It is now possible to objectively measuring things like efficiency, weight and strength, so if "the most efficient", "lightest", or "strongest" is your definition of "best" it is possible to ascertain with some accuracy which fits your criteria. But a "best" at one criterion doesn't come without some trade-offs in others, thus we can occupy ourselves with long email discussion of which is best when all that really matters is which we like better. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 9 Sep 2004 at 11:59, Nick Schade wrote: > Did those earlier hunters starve to death? Hyperbole doesn't do. Just because an implement is improved doesn't mean that the prior one was useless. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I think that one overwhelming reason for choosing the long GP style blade over shorter ones is that they are quiet. For a hunter, stealth is more important than speed, endurance or many other factors. Don't forget, they were hunting sea mammals, some of whom are known to be smarter than most of the animals that our ancestors of a millenium ago were killing and eating. On an animal IQ test, which would score higher - a seal or a domesticated chicken? Sorry, that's hyperbole - :-) Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sep 9, 2004, at 3:26 PM, Michael Daly wrote: > On 9 Sep 2004 at 11:59, Nick Schade wrote: > >> Did those earlier hunters starve to death? > > Hyperbole doesn't do. Just because an implement is improved doesn't > mean that the prior one was useless. My point is we don't have any evidence that hunting with the newer paddle form is any more productive than with the old form. From a pure survival standpoint, the "better" paddle is the one that allows you to supply more seal meat to your family. The assumption that the newer form is better is no different than assuming the Euro paddle is better than the Greenland paddle merely because it is the latest innovation. > I've said it before and I'll say it again: I think that one > overwhelming reason for choosing the long GP style blade over shorter > ones is that they are quiet. For a hunter, stealth is more important > than speed, endurance or many other factors. It may be true that the current blade shape is quiet, but your conclusion presupposes that the earlier version was not equally quiet. Do you know this, or is it an assumption? One reason to have a pointed blade like the lanceolate old Greenland paddle is to make the entry quiet. I would not be surprised if the more rounded tip common on modern Greenland paddles is a little noisier. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 10 Sep 2004 at 8:32, Nick Schade wrote: > It may be true that the current blade shape is quiet, but your > conclusion presupposes that the earlier version was not equally quiet. > Do you know this, or is it an assumption? One reason to have a pointed > blade like the lanceolate old Greenland paddle is to make the entry > quiet. I would not be surprised if the more rounded tip common on > modern Greenland paddles is a little noisier. I was thinking in terms of the current shape vs the Euro - not current vs prior long blade. We know that many shapes have been found in the arctic and that the long, narrow blade is predominant. My assumption is that the paddle as a hunter's tool precludes most other uses. Sorry for any confusion. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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