Peter wrote; > * It will be better for you, and for your surviving family who will have > to > pick up the pieces, that you take personal responsibility for your > actions, > knowing that you are a member of a society that, in law at least, values > your >> life. Interesting. Does society value my life or the quality of my life? Who defines that quality, society or me? It seems to me that society (whatever that is) wants me to fit into their (whoever they are) mold. Consider. "A" wants to participate in a risky activity. "B" expresses concern and says if you do you must do it under my terms. Does "A'" s life concern or "B" or "B's" idea of what constitutes life that concerns "B"? This debate - the freedoms of the individual versus the concerns of the group - may never end but it would not offend me if the wusses out there quit imposing thier fears and concerns on those of us who don't share them. The illogical nature of the person or group that says, " I will try to rescue you whether you like it or not and because you have no choice in the matter you must make it easy for me" simply boggles the mind. Read my lips. Do not rescue me. I don't need you to tell me about my family (a topic you know nothing about). If you value my life let me live it. I appreciate your offer of help but I reject it. Jordan wrote; > Is it fair to keep others from our "secret" places but still continue > to go there ourselves? Certainly, they will remain unspoiled if not > many people tramp over them but it seems a little elitist to say that > only the few of us who will treat the sites well should go to them. > Perhaps, it would be better if we stopped searching for "secret" places > or as outdoors people agree that we are just not going to explore > certain areas so that they remain unspoiled. Fair? Is this a game? Stop searching for the peace of wilderness untrammeled by green pigs? Is that what wilderness travel means? Evenings spent cleaning up filth at campsites? Portage trails suitable for SUV's? Reservations for a campsite? Sorry, I don't want it. I can, however, tell you how to find one of your own. First take a map of the area that interests you. Mark off any river that has a written description either by the government or well meaning wilderness traveler wanting to make life easy for you. Search back issues of canoeing association newsletters and mark off any river mentioned there. Now research the archives of the Hudson Bay Company or missionary groups. Read as much as possible by those who traveled in the 19th century. here you will get hints about long since abandoned trade routes and trapping areas. Pick out a promising river from that. Now pore over the maps to find a way to access the headwaters and then make your first attempt. Take your GPS and cell phone etc and lay them on the ground. Drive your car over them several times. Now start. Do not get discouraged. It may take two or three tries. Learn to read a map and navigate with a compass. Believe it or not people explored this continent before NASA. The term "height of land" may sound romantic but it ain't. It usually means swamps, almost impenetrable tag alders, barely navigable streams, and black flies. Millions of black flies. Long hard days of disappointment when you reach a dead end and must back-track. When you finally reach the headwaters of your river you have just begun, You will have to decide for yourself how to run, or line, or bushwhack around rapids. (no detailed descriptions about taking the first drop river left and ferrying across to the eddy on river right etc. etc. etc. written for those who have difficulty reading a river but who can read a manual) You may find yourself doing more walking than paddling. (See Richard Culpepper' web site). You may have to camp in some damned awkward spots. You may have to paddle for a day or more along the shores of Hudson's Bay or the coast of Labrador to reach a take out point so you can get home. You may also find glorious runs of fast water, pristine lakes, wildlife, and peace. You won't find gum wrappers, aluminum foil in fire pits, melted plastic, forgotten gear and great stone firepits suitable for the sacrifice of virgins. I recall one morning on the Kimosippi when I crawled out of my tent and to see the sun rise across a small lake at the tree line (a misnomer but sounds great). I almost wept at the beautiful solitude. Tell some one else about it? Surely you jest. Elitist? Maybe. If you want to go there. Find it. I bet the struggle and the rewards will turn you into an elitist so fast it will make your head spin. Cheers John Winters *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). 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In a message dated 12/9/2004 8:18:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, jdwinters_at_eastlink.ca writes: Interesting. Does society value my life or the quality of my life? Who defines that quality, society or me? It seems to me that society (whatever that is) wants me to fit into their (whoever they are) mold. John, Why do you continue to live in society if it binds you down so? You are one of the top contributors to this forum, yet you tend to disagree with most of us. If I felt so strong about things as you do, I would pack a few essentials into my kayak and slip off from everyone, including family and go live on my own in that great private place you tease us with. If you go, take a Bible along to read and maybe someday you will understand that man is not an island unto himself. Believe it or not, humankind needs each other. Way down deep you are reaching out to others whether or not you know it. Others and myself will pray for you whether you like it or not, and be concerned for your life. Amen. I say all this with a Cristian heart, no hate, just love, Ronnie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 11:23:20 EST Harley1941_at_aol.com wrote: > > John, > > Why do you continue to live in society if it binds you down so? You are one > of the top contributors to this forum, yet you tend to disagree with most of > us. If I felt so strong about things as you do, I would pack a few essentials > into my kayak and slip off from everyone, including family and go live on my > own in that great private place you tease us with. Prefering not to have a search made does not mean rejecting and living outside of society. Wilderness paddlers take risks and mitigate risks. As long as the degree of risk is understood, and the mitigation well thought out with respect to one's own interests, one's travelling companion's interests, one's family's interests, and one's society's interests, then it is perfectly reasonable to accept certain levels of society's protections, and to reject others. Who restricts their paddling ventures to only a few minutes from a major hospital? Who ensures that a motorized chase boat accompanies them? Who deliberately does not paddle in bear country? Who does not drive to and from the trailhead? It's all just a matter of degree. Deciding whether or not to carry various types of electronics is just one more consideration, in which one has to weigh the value of communications against the desire for self reliance. Coaching such a decision in terms of leaving society is too broad a brush. Instead, let's have a good look at whether such equipment will affect the level of risk taken in our decisions and actions, at whether such equipment will actually save our lives or simply make evacuation quicker and more comfortable, and whether such equipment will make a significant impact on the enjoyment of moving through the wilderness. Richard Culpeper http://my.tbaytel.net/culpeper/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ronnie wrote: > Why do you continue to live in society if it binds you down so? How can I improve society by leaving it? OK, don't answer that. :) >You are one of the top contributors to this forum, yet you tend to disagree >with most of > us. If I felt so strong about things as you do, I would pack a few > essentials > into my kayak and slip off from everyone, including family and go live on > my > own in that great private place you tease us with. Yes, I do disagree with some of you (I don't know about "most"). Why would you suggest that I run away from such a stimulating challenge? If you decide to follow your own advice I hope you will find your own private place though. :) > If you go, take a Bible along to read and maybe someday you will understand > that man is not an island unto himself. If I go I will take Spinoza's Ethics and, perhaps some books by Neil Postman and maybe Ulysses (I never have been able to finish it). You might consider reading them yourself to understand the meaning of being part of society rather than a slave to it. >Believe it or not, humankind needs each other. Why would I not believe that? Do you think that because I don't want you (or other self-styled protectors and self-appointed protectors of the public) meddling in my affairs that I don't like people? I just don't like meddling people. I consider your comments insulting and un-Christian as well as illogical. >Way down deep you are reaching out to others whether or not you know it. I DO know I am reaching out. I am reaching out to my fellow paddlers in hopes they will get the message about wilderness conservation, risk homeostasis, personal responsibility and lots of other things. Sadly, many harden thier hearts and minds to the message. >Others and myself will pray for you whether you like it or not, and be > concerned for your life. Amen. That is very nice of you. In return, I will pray for you. Not every day mind you,. Just in between praying for world peace, conservation, abused animals, abused children, an end to stupidity, and end to religious intolerance, etc. etc. etc etc. > I say all this with a Cristian heart, no hate, just love, I say this all with a Pantheist heart filled with love of this universe and in the belief that we are all worthwhile regardless of our religious beliefs. Glad to hear you don't hate me. I prefer, however, a slightly less oppressive love. I hope you will pay attention to Richard Culpepper's response to your post. He hits the nail squarely and, surprise, Richard and I don't always agree but I like to flatter myself that we stimulate each other. He stimulates my thinking anyway. Cheers John Winters *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 16:10:19 -0400 John Winters <jdwinters_at_eastlink.ca> wrote: > > I say this all with a Pantheist heart filled with love . . . > > Richard and I don't always agree but I like to flatter myself > that we stimulate each other. > Kinky. Really kinky. Perhaps what goes on on the Kimosippi is best left unsaid. Richard Culpeper http://my.tbaytel.net/culpeper/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The Ad Hominem political attacks, religious proselytization and preaching are just about enough to drive a person off the list. I signed up discuss paddling. Michael in Tallahassee (just another self-loathing, godless, atheistic, bleeding heart, humanist, liberal) On Dec 9, 2004, at 11:23 AM, Harley1941_at_aol.com wrote: *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> Why do you continue to live in society if it binds you down so? You are one > of the top contributors to this forum, yet you tend to disagree with most of > us. If I felt so strong about things as you do, I would pack a few essentials > into my kayak and slip off from everyone, including family and go live on my > own in that great private place you tease us with. >Prefering not to have a search made does not mean rejecting and living outside of society. Somewhat along these lines, I read the book, "Into Thin Air," by Jon Krakauer about an ill fated Mt. Everest expedition. At one point the author describes how the bodies of climbers who had succumbed to the elements in past expedition are just left on the mountain since any recovery would be too difficult. Sometimes the body's surface in the ice and the current climbers just step over them, more or less. Sounds good to me :-)) Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John wrote: - >if the wusses out there quit imposing their >fears and concerns on those of us who don't >share them. Peter wrote: - G'Day John, Peter and Paddlewise, I don't expect John was suggesting that my good friend Peter Rattenbury was a "wus" but in case anyone got the wrong impression I've watched Peter rescuing people under circumstances which were not pleasant. He may be concerned but is definitely not a wus. He likes chocolate though! Don't quite agree with Peter's interpretation of Pantheism but look forward to discussing it with him over a beer All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: Harley1941_at_aol.com > If you go, take a Bible along to read and maybe someday you will understand > that man is not an island unto himself. Believe it or not, humankind needs > each other. Way down deep you are reaching out to others whether or not you know > it. Others and myself will pray for you whether you like it or not, and be > concerned for your life. Amen. > > I say all this with a Cristian heart, no hate, just love, > Ronnie Uh oh... I think I hear Dr. Inverbon stirring...... Love, jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Scott replied: > Somewhat along these lines, I read the book, "Into Thin Air," by Jon > Krakauer about an ill fated Mt. Everest expedition. At one point the > author > describes how the bodies of climbers who had succumbed to the elements in > past expedition are just left on the mountain since any recovery would be > too difficult. Sometimes the body's surface in the ice and the current > climbers just step over them, more or less. Sounds good to me :-)) I enjoyed the Everest IMAX film too, which was filmed during the harrowing events written in the book you mention. It was interesting to note the difference in attitude toward risk that the IMAX team displayed. Yes, they knew they were in the shadow of a very dangerous mountain, and that correspondingly, death could visit any member of the team at any time. However, and this is a big however, they refused to asend during the same climbing window that the ill-fated climbers chose, presisely because Ed Viesturs (one of my heros) will not venture beyond his comfort zone. Not sure how one quantifies "their comfort zone," but it's something "safe" risk-takers know very well; and they at least attempt to maximize their chances of success and minimize the possible loss of life and loss to family and loved ones that their deaths might cause - let alone high-altitude rescue attempts. Another interesting take on this topic is Joe Simpson's experiences dramitized in the movie 'Touching the Void' (I haven't read the book yet). He and his climbing partner challenged an almost unclimable mountain in the Andes with no back-up, no imminent rescue methodology, etc. This was pure risk-taking at it's maximum society-accepted level with far-reaching consequences for the two men. Joe is also one of my heroes, perhaps not for his careful approach (pardon the pun), but for his persistence as he spent delerious days crawling down the mountain in excrutiating pain on his own. In the final analyis, he lost any concept or belief in a personal, carring God (too bad Ronnie was there to _preach it brother_!). This I found interesting, as many a man turns toward the spiritual during times of duress, though he longed anguishingly for hman contact. He felt utterly alone. What aweful destitution. Yet, Joe will remain one of my heroes for the rest of my life, the dramitization in the movie firmly burned into my mind, as he pulled himself, so to speak, out of a terrible situation. I like that self-sufficiency and the pragmatic/pshycological motivating way he mapped out each short stage of his decent, trying each time for yet another few yards. One of the motivational speakers we use in a youth organization I assosiate myself with (YFC) was the bloke who fell off a BC ferry a few years back, surviving the night in the Strait of Georgia (he had the flu, went to puke over the side, and fell in, un-noticed). He survived, amazingly, for over ten hours, taking a 300-yard swim, then another, then another, never giving up. Having been in a few life-threatening predicaments while paddling over the last few years, I can relate to that attitude. Having been in more than a few health-related life-challenging situations over the last few years and more recently, I've come to appreciate that "never give up" attitude more intensly than I'd have wished upon myself. Anyway, no dead paddler bodies here in BC to walk over on the beach, the crabs get'em first. Though, my friend Doug Alderson came upon the busted-up remains of one of the kayaks of the two paddlers who perished off Nootka Island not too long ago. He said it was a very sobering experience. Loss of life or he immediency of that possiblility can be that way, can't it? Doug Lloyd (who just spent three months in very poor health quietly meditating on the nature of God, coming to the conclusion that most religious people understand God the least: so now back to storm paddling soon, I hope). Victoria BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug said : Ed Viesturs (one of my heros) will not venture beyond his comfort zone. Not sure how one quantifies "their comfort zone," but it's something "safe" risk-takers know very well; and they at least attempt to maximize their chances of success and minimize the possible loss of life and loss to family... Ed Viesturs also talks about why he will make such great efforts to help others. (paraphrasing what I remember): "I believe there is a Karma National Bank. The more deposits you make now, the more you'll have to use when you might need it." Most of us, unfortunately, don't know what our balance sheet looks like. Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Oops, forgot to hit spell-check on my last post after cranking on the keyboard. Doug Lloyd Victoria BC Scott replied: > Somewhat along these lines, I read the book, "Into Thin Air," by Jon > Krakauer about an ill fated Mt. Everest expedition. At one point the > author *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Lloyd wrote: > Oops, forgot to hit spell-check on my last post after cranking on the > keyboard. A crank? You must be the only person on the list with a keyboard older than mine. (Watch you don't break your arm with the kickback when it starts.) GaryJ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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