Petero wrote: "Would it be practical to shorten the paddle sufficiently that you could have a truly vertical stroke in which the hand passes below the eyes and the upper arm is consequently below the shoulder?" Yes. It is called a Greenland paddle! If custom cut as per the commonly recommended guidelines, one's hands are only shoulder width apart. A vertical stroke with this paddle will keep the elbow at just about the maximum safe height. It is not here the whole time, but is during the actual stroke, once the plant has been made and force is being applied. Rob. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
A physical therapist who spoke to our Sierra Nevada Canoe & Kayak Club recently emphasized that any repeated physical activity in which the elbow is repeatedly worked in a position higher than ones shoulder, such as paddling, will lead to shoulder problems. This is probably "old hat" to most paddlewisers, but perhaps a few were not aware. The PT said that practically all of the shoulder problems he treats are caused by this kind of action; has to do with the shape of the joint. Paddler patients have told him, he said, that they have been instructed to paddle with a stroke that brings the upper hand across the eyes or forehead in order to achieve a nearly vertical stroke because that was supposed to be the most efficient manner of paddling, He concluded saying that while he couldn't speak to the issues of high angle strokes versus lower angle strokes, from personal paddling experience, he could practically guarantee that people who always paddled with a high angle stroke would be visiting him or one of his colleagues eventually. Dave *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Shoulder and Rotator Cup Problems Dave, Do I have your permission to forward your Paddlewise message referenced above to our club mailing list. I think you raised a very good point. Thanks, Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Anne Burton wrote: >Anyone had rotator cuff impingement syndrome problems? >Followup activities to insure being able to paddle? I have had surgery on my right shoulder twice now and the left one isn't much better. Anne, I can tell you from personal experience that if I paddle "inefficiently", with low arms and low elbows, that I can paddle several kilometres without too much pain, most days. The minute that I bring my arms up and paddle "efficiently" as described below, I will last maybe 100 metres and will hurt big time for the next three to four days. I don't go as fast anymore and can't get a good CV workout paddling this way, but at least I can still paddle a two or three times a week. I would also like to second the need to do the PT exercises regularly and not drop them as soon as the pain starts to lessen. Jolie is right that this can take a long time, but it can usually be fixed with PT, without surgery. John Dave Bishop wrote: ...they have been instructed to paddle with a stroke that brings the upper > hand across the eyes or forehead in order to achieve a nearly vertical stroke > because that was supposed to be the most efficient manner of paddling, > > ... he could practically guarantee that people who always paddled with a high angle stroke would be visiting him or one of his colleagues eventually. > > Dave *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Paddlewisers, I switched to a high vertical stroke a few years ago and haven't had shoulder problems since then. However, I think it has more to do with keeping the upper hand level rather than letting it come down on the push part of the stroke and using body rotation rather than the arms. I see very few paddlers who actually rotate their bodies, even though they swear they are rotating. I also lift weights (for many years) and do 5 types of dumbbell lifts that focus on the shoulders. You have to keep those shoulders strong. Duane Southern California (where it was hot and all I wore was a rash guard while playing in the surf today) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Pwisers.... Dave wrote: A physical therapist who spoke to our Sierra Nevada Canoe & Kayak Club recently emphasized that any repeated physical activity in which the elbow is repeatedly worked in a position higher than ones shoulder, such as paddling, will lead to shoulder problems. Duane wrote: >Paddlewisers, > >I switched to a high vertical stroke a few years ago and haven't had shoulder problems since then. However, I think it has more to do with keeping the upper hand level rather than letting it come down on the push part of the stroke and using body rotation rather than the arms. I see very few paddlers who actually rotate their bodies, even though they swear they are rotating. I also lift weights (for many years) and do 5 types of dumbbell lifts that focus on the shoulders. You have to keep those shoulders strong. > It is absolutely necessary to avoid hyperextending the shoulder joint, but this does not rule out a vertical stroke. I think that two things in particular contribute to hyperextension during attempts to develop a vertical stroke. One is a paddle that's too long for the stroke. I've seen paddlers whose hands were well above their foreheads as they attempted vertical strokes while trying not to bury their paddles to inefficient depths. Another culprit is harder to spot and probably much more common -- slumped shoulders. If the shoulders are slumped forward, then even a horizontal arm will be on the verge of hyperextending the shoulder. By elevating the sternum and letting the shoulders fall back, you improve your strength and efficiency, and greadtly reduce the probability of shoulder injury. So: if you want a vertical stroke, sit up like your mother told you to, and borrow a shorter paddle. PS: Duane is right on the money about rotation and about working to build up shoulder strength. Bob Volin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Wait - I do still have occasional rotator cuff problems, but not usually as a result of paddling. (Usually from sleeping in the wrong position,or sometimes from other exercises) I have a high angle strok,but my elbow is _never _above my shoulder. IMHO, if you sit up straight and rotate, and if your paddle is an appropriate lenght, there is no reason why your elbow should be above your shoulder when your upper hand is across your eyes. Joan John Waddington wrote: > Anne Burton wrote: > >Anyone had rotator cuff impingement syndrome problems? > >Followup activities to insure being able to paddle? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
". . . any repeated physical activity in which the elbow is repeatedly worked in a position higher than ones shoulder, such as paddling . . ." I'll have to pay attention to this next time I paddle, but it seems to me here on land that my elbow stays below my shoulder in normal strokes. Tom *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Tom said: > I'll have to pay attention to this next time I paddle, but it > seems to me here on land that my elbow stays below my > shoulder in normal strokes. The operative word here is "normal". We had a young 30 something paddler practicing with us once and he was trying to practice bracing while using a paddle float on the end of his blade. A wave knocked him over and his paddle and float stayed on the surface while his body went down. He did not let go of the paddle shaft and wound up dislocating his shoulder. Steve Holtzman *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> The operative word here is "normal". True. I use a Greenland paddle. Tom *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> True. I use a Greenland paddle. And that makes it even better IMHO. Since switching to a GP, I've found I have much fewer aches and pains after a paddle. Can't wait for the morning to come. I haven't paddled since 12/26 because of all of the rain we've had out here and I'll be getting my new Don Beale GP wet for the first time. Used to use an old Superior that I bought from a friend. This is my first GP made to my measurements. Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>... Paddler patients have told him, he said, > that they have been instructed to paddle with a stroke that brings the upper > hand across the eyes or forehead in order to achieve a nearly vertical stroke > because that was supposed to be the most efficient manner of paddling, Well, keeping the paddle shaft vertical IS more efficient, but here in NJ we have always taught to do so without bringing the arm higher than the shoulder or perhaps the neck. Going higher almost always invites shoulder dislocations or similar injuries. This also goes for Duffeks.... Joe P. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Joseph Pylka" <jpylka_at_earthlink.net> wrote: > Well, keeping the paddle shaft vertical IS more efficient, but here in NJ > we have always taught to do so without bringing the arm higher than the > shoulder or perhaps the neck. Going higher almost always invites shoulder > dislocations or similar injuries. > This also goes for Duffeks.... That advice is common out on the west coast, also. Other factors to consider if you adopt a more vertical stroke style: 1. How wide is your yak? Maybe a narrower beam will allow an efficient vertical style without excessive rotator cuff strain. 2. How much blade area are you using? A more rapid cadence with smaller-faced blades may also help alleviate shoulder strain, with little loss of peak output. 3. How much torso rotation are you getting? Rotation at the waist can help get the paddle shaft over the center of the boat without over-straining the shoulder. In the end, some study of what people like Greg Barton are doing may help minimize rotator cuff abuse. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Dave, Saturday, January 15, 2005, 4:28:21 PM, you wrote: > 2. How much blade area are you using? A more rapid cadence with > smaller-faced blades may also help alleviate shoulder strain, > with little loss of peak output. Though I never had any muscle or joint problems with my wide bladed old Werner "San Juan" that I used exclusively for several years, even with an 80 degree feather (though rarely with a severely high angle stroke, and even then, not raising my elbow above my shoulders), I've since switched to using a Greenland Paddle for the past few years, and I really enjoy it. The blade is long and narrow, with a maximum width of only 3 1/2 inches (so that it can be comfortable grasped, even at the extreme end for extended and sliding strokes. There are several reasons I now prefer the GP, but I've also noticed that without losing any cruising speed with my forward stroke, it does feel, in general, less stressful on my joints and muscles relative to the Werner (though as I said, I never had any real problems with that paddle either). Some people do use a relatively vertical stroke with the GP, and in some situations, I do too, but for most of my paddling around, I find that I still use a fairly low angle stroke. The cruising forward stroke with the GP does involve a more rapid cadence to maintain the same speeds I achieved in fewer strokes with the old Werner, but it doesn't cause any more fatigue after hours of constant paddling; if anything, perhaps even a little less. -- Melissa *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Joe wrote >Well, keeping the paddle shaft vertical IS more efficient, >but here in NJ we have always taught to do so without >bringing the arm higher than the shoulder or perhaps the neck. >Going higher almost always invites shoulder dislocations or >similar injuries. G'Day Joe and Paddlewise, Is there a case here for really short paddle shafts? I moved to a vertical stroke with lots of body rotation four years ago to stop elbow stiffness and for efficiency. I was taught to pass my hand above my eyes and suspect that this means that my upper arm is going ever so slightly above my shoulder. Haven't had shoulder problems, but don't want them either! Would it be practical to shorten the paddle sufficiently that you could have a truly vertical stroke in which the hand passes below the eyes and the upper arm is consequently below the shoulder? All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Quoting PeterO <rebyl_kayak_at_iprimus.com.au>: > Joe wrote > >Well, keeping the paddle shaft vertical IS more efficient... > Is there a case here for really short paddle shafts? I think there is. The main themes touched on here are ones I have discovered really help me. (rotator cuff tear on left, 2 bouts w/ impingement on right, caused not from the glory of paddling but the manic full-time travel of a consultant hauling too much weight through endless airports.) The themes are: Short paddle (hands closer together) strong shoulders & back (through off-water training) well-aligned posture (vertebra stacked, lift from the sternum) -lose the backband, or at least consider it a butt-stop instead of a backrest torso rotation (from the HIPS not the shoulders) driving the stroke > I moved to a vertical stroke with lots of body rotation four years ago to > stop elbow stiffness and for efficiency. ... I did it to keep up with the maniacs I paddle with.... but it does seem easier on the forearm & wrist > Would it be practical to shorten the paddle sufficiently that you could have > a truly vertical stroke in which the hand passes below the eyes and the > upper arm is consequently below the shoulder? There's a pretty good case for this. Among others, the Lightning Paddles web site discusses it somewhat: http://www.paddles.com/library/basics3.html (no affiliation, I just like 'em) I went through a few "adjustments" before I finally accepted that I was better off with a _really_ short paddle for my short torso and skinny boats. Luckily I have taller friends who need paddles <g> Also remember that flexibility is as important as strength so, while you want a strong shoulder girdle, you also want it to move... Be sure to lengthen those same muscles (stretching) that you contract for strength when you're lifting. JP ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 04:55:43 -0800, "J Pivovar" <kayak_at_headwinds.org> said: > > Would it be practical to shorten the paddle sufficiently that you > > could have a truly vertical stroke in which the hand passes below > > the eyes and the upper arm is consequently below the shoulder? > > There's a pretty good case for this. Among others, the Lightning > Paddles web site discusses it somewhat: > http://www.paddles.com/library/basics3.html The lengths on the lightning site seem a bit long. I've been using a 216 cm paddle, and I'm fairly long torsoed (6'/163 cm with "extra" torso) and longish armed (35"/78cm sleeve). I plan to get an adjustable paddle (hopefully soon) so I can experiment with shorter lengths. I think the 216cm is too long, for me. I normally paddle a skinny boat (17" or 43 cm beam) with a vertical stroke when using a euro paddle. As we ALL know it's different with the greenland paddle - I happen to alternate styles. > (no affiliation, I just like 'em) I went through a few "adjustments" > before I finally accepted that I was better off with a _really_ short > paddle for my short torso and skinny boats. So what's really short..... Kirk -- Kirk Olsen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Quoting Kirk Olsen <kork4_at_cluemail.com>: > The lengths on the lightning site seem a bit long. I've been using a > 216 cm paddle.... I agree. Using their advice (consistent with others, as well) I started my "shorter paddle quest" with a 220 cm. Was such an improvement from the 235/240 range I started in, I thought that was "it", but then worked my way through much of the issues we've just discussed... > > > (no affiliation, I just like 'em) I went through a few "adjustments" > > before I finally accepted that I was better off with a _really_ short > > paddle for my short torso and skinny boats. > > So what's really short..... I'm down to 205, thinking that was really extreme at first, but maybe not... I'm 5'7 with a 32" inseam, so not much of me is above the boat. All my sleeves get turned up so my fingers will stick out. Boat beams range from 18" - 21". I've really had to reconsider a lot of the "standard" advice. I'm going to have lighting cut down one of my longer 2-piece paddles to about 197. If nothing else it will make a nice-sized spare that won't cover the day hatch :). JP ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
PeterO wrote: >Would it be practical to shorten the paddle sufficiently that you could have >a truly vertical stroke in which the hand passes below the eyes and the >upper arm is consequently below the shoulder? > > > Peter (and all), I believe that a shorter paddle is much better (in terms of shoulder health) for a vertical stroke. As most of us did, I started with a 240 that was sold to me by a salesman who was as ignorant of paddling as I was. After a couple of years, I found that I was much happier with a 220 Werner Kuai (borrowed). I eventually bought a Lendal Nordkapp that was adjustable from 210 to 216, and found that I always used it at the 210 length. This was a very comfortable length, but the blade turned out to be too big for me. I now paddle with a 210 Ikelos, and my backup is a 206 Quest. I recently paddled with a 215 Ikelos for about 10 minutes, just to see if it offered much in the way of increased speed. It didn't. Interestingly, the fellow whose paddle I borrowed used my 210 at the same time. When we returned our paddles to their respective owners, he said that the 215 felt too long! Like so many of us, I have been bothered by impingement syndrome. Mine was brought on by a dumb error while practicing braces with a paddlefloat. Physical therapy helped greatly, and taught me how to condition myself and to protect the shoulder. If only I were consistent with the conditioning! . Bob Volin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I think one thing that is not being mentioned is grip width. I did a little test here in the house. If I take the often described "paddle on top of head with elbows bent at 90 deg" grip on a paddle I can not get my upper hand down to shoulder level. My lower arm is not long enough to reach down to where it should be on the paddle when the upper hand is lowered to shoulder level. I am holding the paddle with both arms almost extended (slight bend in each elbow) and the paddle at about a 80 deg angle. If I lower the paddle angle to 40 deg then I can keep the upper hand at shoulder level. If I switch to my Greenland width grip I can keep the 80 deg angle even if my upper arm is several inches below my shoulder. Does it do any good (ie help keep your hand near shoulder level) to get a shorter paddle if you do not narrow your grip width? What is the current generally agreed upon method of setting your grip width? Of course I realize that if the paddle becomes really shorter while the blade stays the same size you would eventually have to narrow your grip to keep from having your hand on the blade. Also it would seem that if you just narrowed your grip on a long paddle then you would lose some mechanical advantage. Am I off base on this? Mark J. Arnold > [Original Message] > From: Robert MacDonald <RMacDonald_at_udl.com> > To: <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> > Date: 1/18/2005 10:49:59 > Subject: [Paddlewise] Shoulder and Rotator Cup Problems > > Petero wrote: > "Would it be practical to shorten the paddle sufficiently that you could have > a truly vertical stroke in which the hand passes below the eyes and the > upper arm is consequently below the shoulder?" *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark, I find that I vary my grip width, but it's mostly a bit wider than my shoulders. It feels to me that it's a matter of leverage. If I need to go to "low gear" I'll widen the grip and crank up the cadence. But when I'm cruising easily in benign conditions, I'll tend to narrow the grip width and get a longer paddle stroke relative to my own movement. This is all done with a 210 (or 206) paddle, so even with a wide grip, my hand doesn't get higher than my face. Mark Arnold wrote: >I think one thing that is not being mentioned is grip width. I did a >little test here in the house. If I take the often described "paddle on >top of head with elbows bent at 90 deg" grip on a paddle I can not get my >upper hand down to shoulder level. My lower arm is not long enough to >reach down to where it should be on the paddle when the upper hand is >lowered to shoulder level. I am holding the paddle with both arms almost >extended (slight bend in each elbow) and the paddle at about a 80 deg >angle. If I lower the paddle angle to 40 deg then I can keep the upper >hand at shoulder level. If I switch to my Greenland width grip I can keep >the 80 deg angle even if my upper arm is several inches below my shoulder. > >Does it do any good (ie help keep your hand near shoulder level) to get a >shorter paddle if you do not narrow your grip width? What is the current >generally agreed upon method of setting your grip width? Of course I >realize that if the paddle becomes really shorter while the blade stays the >same size you would eventually have to narrow your grip to keep from having >your hand on the blade. Also it would seem that if you just narrowed your >grip on a long paddle then you would lose some mechanical advantage. > >Am I off base on this? > >Mark J. Arnold *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Moderator's Note: Content unaltered. Excessive quoting (including headers/footers/sig lines/extraneous text from previous posts, etc.) have been removed. Please edit quoted material in addition to removing header/trailers when replying to posts.] Bob from your description of "a bit wider than my shoulders" I would assume that you are using a narrower grip than the "elbows bent 90" width grip and a slightly wider grip than the Greenland grip. Would this be a correct assumption? When teaching how do you describe to a student how wide apart to set their hands? ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Volin Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Shoulder and Rotator Cup Problems Mark, I find that I vary my grip width, but it's mostly a bit wider than my shoulders. It feels to me that it's a matter of leverage. If I need to go to "low gear" I'll widen the grip and crank up the cadence. But when I'm cruising easily in benign conditions, I'll tend to narrow the grip width and get a longer paddle stroke relative to my own movement. This is all done with a 210 (or 206) paddle, so even with a wide grip, my hand doesn't get higher than my face. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Moderator's Note: Content unaltered. Excessive quoting (including headers/footers/sig lines/extraneous text from previous posts, etc.) have been removed. Please edit quoted material in addition to removing header/trailers when replying to posts.] Hi Mark, Sad to say -- although I have paddled and done a few rolls with a GP, I wouldn't claim to know what a reasonable GP grip would be. My (Euro) grip is generally about a hand width wider than the "elbows bent 90" -- which is what I /meant /to say by "wider than my shoulders" -- Sorry my language was misleading. When teaching beginners, I go with the 90 degree guideline. I tell folks to start with that grip width, and suggest that they will want to experiment with slightly wider and narrower grips as they become more comfortable and more proficient. I don't find myself addressing the issue systematically with more experienced paddlers (although perhaps they would benefit). I may notice an atypical grip width in someone who seems awkward with certain strokes or who has an inefficient forward stroke, and that's when I would work with them to discover what works for them. Bob Mark Arnold wrote: > Bob from your description of "a bit wider than my shoulders" I would > assume that you are using a narrower grip than the "elbows bent 90" > width grip and a slightly wider grip than the Greenland grip. Would > this be a correct assumption? When teaching how do you describe to > a student how wide apart to set their hands? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark Arnold wrote: [...] >If I take the often described "paddle on top of head with elbows bent at 90 >deg" grip on a paddle I can not get my upper hand down to shoulder level. I always wondered where that idea came from, what would be the logic of it, and why it gets repeated over and over again, even if no one abides to it, even the person who tells you to paddle that way doesn't follow his own advice... (as I have noticed very often, not to say always.) Dirk Barends *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:40 PDT