I have been sea kayaking for about seven years now, but I am thinking about getting into White Water. If I do, though, I want a WW boat that is also a good surfer. Any body have any suggestions for a good beginner WW boat that is also good in the surf? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I've got a Necky Zip that works pretty well in the surf. It's more like a dedicated surf kayak: flat hull, very aggressive chines. Many WW boats have planing (i.e., flat hulls) and so work pretty well, but lots of them are too short and slow to work well for me. Steve Richard T. Magill wrote: > I have been sea kayaking for about seven years now, but I am thinking about > getting into White Water. If I do, though, I want a WW boat that is also a > good surfer. Any body have any suggestions for a good beginner WW boat that > is also good in the surf? -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA http://www.savvypaddler.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 9/19/07, Richard T. Magill <seakayaker32_at_wordandwater.us> wrote: > > I have been sea kayaking for about seven years now, but I am thinking > about > getting into White Water. If I do, though, I want a WW boat that is also > a > good surfer. Any body have any suggestions for a good beginner WW boat > that > is also good in the surf? > Jackson kayaks (www.jacksonkayaks.com) makes a beginner river-runner/surfer kayak called Hero (and a larger version called "SuperHero") that might work for your needs. My brother-in-law, who surfs near Westport, uses a Necky Zip which might be a bit radical for you. I tend to really like the Jackson boats. One of the problems with white water kayaks, at least the modern ones, is that they tend to be specialized into one of three categories (although there is some cross-over): river runner; playboat; and, creek boat. White water kayaks share few characteristics with sea kayaks. They.... um... both float. Well, quite a few of the playboats just barely float. So that's not entirely true. Let's see.... in both you sit in a cockpit... but you don't sit in the w/w boat in same the way you would sit in a sea kayak. In a w/w kayak you generally have your knees splayed out to the sides and your backband cranked tight to keep you that way. Your toes may be pointed too. Sounds comfy, huh? Okay, so, while white water boats may not share many similarities with sea kayaks they do share some characteristics with other w/w types. The major point they share is that they are tend to be short and wide. Sometimes very short and very wide. And they can be a handful to roll. Did I mention that they are short? Almost all the old style kayaks (over say, 7 to 10 years old) are river runners. They are generally longer (8 to 11 feet long) and narrower and tend to have more pointy ends. You can surf them but you pretty much can't cut across a wave with them. They will slide equally well sideways down a wave as frontways. There are lots of these for sale on craigslist. Of all the older w/w river-runners probably the Perception Pirouette Supersport would make the best ocean surfing boat. They are for sale all over at around $200 - $300. My son has one but I cannot sit in it comfortably for very long; too small for me even though it's 8 feet long. There are more modern river-runner kayaks out there now that combine some of the characteristics of playboats with the flatter bottoms and an "edge" but with a more forgiving nature (less of a tendency to submerge bow or stern with a simple weight shift) and - at least so they say - easier to roll. The Jackson "Hero" series would fit well here. The creekboats are designed to do one thing: float on top in very turbulent water. It's not uncommon for an 8-foot creekboat to have a volume over 90 gallons! They excel at taking idi.... er, very good paddlers down cataracts. You probably don't want one of these. Classic playboats (like the Necky Zip) tend to be short (we're talking under 7 feet here!) with flat bottoms and hard edges (the "chine") with low-volume ends. The ends can actually look hollow. Playboaters like to do tricks on waves and low-volulme ends help. You might find this a handicap on an ocean break, however. There are popular playboats out there with ends that sink if you lean forward or backwards so you can imagine what this would do on a 5' ocean surf break when it gets into the trough. One other thing that the white water boats have in common with each other is that they don't go straight very well; in the hands of a novice they don't go straight at all. And because they tend to be very short they don't go forward very fast even if you don't include the occasional circle. This means that paddling surf off the beach is no problem but paddling *to* the surfing beach can be a big problem depending on how far away it is. As always, what you want will be a compromise between all the various characteristics of the available boats on the market (both new and used). I would look for a boat with a flat bottom and at least a bit of an "edge", slightly fuller ends, long enough to have a comfortable cockpit with enough volume for your weight. There ya go... ask an engineer what time it is and before you know it you have the plans for a watch. :) Craig Jungers Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
You gotta take the "s" out www.jacksonkayak.com -----Original Message----- > Jackson kayaks (www.jacksonkayaks.com) makes a beginner river-runner/surfer kayak called Hero (and a larger version called "SuperHero") that might work for your needs. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 9/20/07, Mark Sanders <sandmarks_at_ca.rr.com> wrote: > > You gotta take the "s" out > > www.jacksonkayak.com > > Uhhh.... I knew that. Craig :P~~~ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hey Craig, Thx for all the info. I have a couple of questions though. First, let me tell you a little more about my sea kayaking abilities, to see if that would change your opinions any. One of my favorite past times right now is surfing my NDK Explorer, but as I'm sure you know, its not very conducive to anything but straight on, head for the beach surfing. I did have a Piranha Inazone WW boat for a while, which was pretty fun on a wave, but as you mentioned, I missed some really cool surfing ops, just because I couldn't get it out to the surf zone (wind, current, etc pushing me back). This suggests to me that I need a longer boat, such as the Dagger RPM, or the Necky Rip. I'm obviously not so concerned with being called "old School", but I do want the planning hull and hard chines. I know you suggest that I avoid them, but I was also considering one of the longer creekers, simply because it has so much more volume in the bow and stern. Wouldn't this help with the nose burying in the trough of a wave? Also, just so you know, I do have a rather bomb proof C to C, lay back, and Sweep role. Would appreciate any advice you or others have. Thx, Rich *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Rich, You are facing the same dilemma I was facing when I posted about a "sea kayak playboat" a year or so ago. I really don't think that there is anything that will cover both a w/w playboat and an ocean surfer although probably the Zip by Necky would come close except when you have to paddle a ways to get out or to the surf zone. I think that it's inescapable that you'll end up with two kayaks (at least) for ocean surf and for river play. You should realize that most w/w paddlers have more than one boat just for rivers; I have 3. My wife sold her sit-on-top w/w kayak but I thought it was a POS anyway. She thinks I should sell the rest but I'm having a problem with that. So, having no luck at finding a sea-kayak playboat I bought a Mariner Express with the idea that its relatively small size (and no dangling bits like rudders) it would serve for close coastal and rock gardens. So far it's been a real joy but I've never had it in ocean surf. Several Paddlewisers have though so maybe they could comment. I don't believe an Express would be suitable on rivers though; for one thing it's 16-feet long and it's fiberglass and my recollection of fiberglass w/w boats is that they end up in pieces after one season. The Mariner Coaster, at about 13 feet, has a reputation as a very good ocean playboat for surfing and rock gardens. I've put one on my wish-list but, again, I don't think it would make a good river playboat even in graphite/kevlar form. Mariner will happily build either of these for you since they are now back in the kayak biz. Go to www.marinerkayaks.com for the link. In the UK there is a kayak called the "Rockhopper" (http://www.teksport.co.uk/rockhopper_kayaks.htm) that looks as if it would make a very good playboat for tidal races and rock gardens. It has an adjustable skeg to help get you to the playspot and looks more like what I would think a sea kayaking playboat would. It's not cheap to buy and with the US dollar equal to 2 British pounds it's even pricier. Plus you have to get it here; I don't know of a US distributor. I talked to a paddler at Deception Pass who has paddled the Rockhopper and he was enthusastic. Still, I would rather have a "real" w/w boat on a river. If I were still doing w/w my choice would be one of the Jackson boats (maybe the Super Hero since I'm a pretty big guy) for rivers and for ocean play I would be looking hard at a Mariner Coaster. Right now I'm pretty happy with the Express since it's a 7-hour drive to the ocean but only 2.5 hrs to Puget Sound so rock gardens are pretty tame within a day-drive. Rob Gibbert would have good insights on this, I think, since he still does both ocean surf and w/w rivers. I'm sure that Chuck Holst (forgive me if I've misremembered your name Chuck) would also have valuable input. Good luck, Craig Jungers Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Rob Gibbert would have good insights on this, I think, since he still > does both ocean surf and w/w rivers. I'm sure that Chuck Holst > (forgive me if I've misremembered your name Chuck) would also have > valuable input. > > Good luck, > Craig Jungers > Royal City, WA > You must be thinking of another Chuck, Craig. I'm an inland sea kayaker who paddles mostly flat local rivers and lakes and Lake Superior, which most summer days does not have a lot of surf. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
A creek boat won't surf much better than your sea kayak. Nothing beats the surf performance of a dedicated surf kayak, and for me, the shorter the better, but if paddling speed is what you want, get a longer IC (International Class) boat and add fins. I've got a old Mike Johnson IC boat. About 12 feet long. It'll out surf any plastic ww boat, has more speed than I know what to do with, and paddles fast enough I could probably hang with many sea kayakers. Not Duane, I'm sure, but many. Of course, I only surf it in contests, I'd way rather be out in my Mega Impulse or Megatron. Geoff ____________________________________ Geoff Jennings (530) 852-4754 - geoff_at_texaskilonewton.com http://www.kimandgeoff.com/ * *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 9/21/07, Richard T. Magill <seakayaker32_at_wordandwater.us> wrote: > > This > suggests to me that I need a longer boat, such as the Dagger RPM, I have an RPM and they are good river-runners, and comfy but not what I'd choose for surfing. Craig Jungers Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I basically did as per this web page - I ordered a set of fins from the site a few years ago: http://www.harborside.com/~dchurch/ofishl.htm At 05:42 PM 24/09/2007, you wrote: >Did you get a kit, or just make something up to put removable fins on it? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Lots of generalizations here to follow. To me, the defining characteristics of a good ocean surf boat are loads of bow rocker and volume, relatively flat bottom and rails. Rails begin at the edge of the bottom and form a lip as they transition into the deck. A well designed surf kayak has plentiful rail to help you carve into the water across the wave. I have never come even close to the speeds I can achieve in my surf boat with a whitewater kayak on ocean waves. However, that really only means the designs of whitewater boats I've actually paddled or sized up by eye. Bow rocker and volume helps with taking off from the wave and getting out onto the green. International Class boats tend to have less bow rocker as their length and speed enables them to take off earlier. True IC boats do not have fins that help define High Performance surf kayaks. Those fins also help track across the wave. I can optimize my fin locations given the conditions of the day, though to my skill level it is more guess work than knowing precisely what I'm doing. There is little stern rocker in most surf kayak designs. The stern shape can be quite different though. Mine, a Mega Impulse, has a larger stern intended to maximize wave energy. Shallower sterns are said to cut turns more quickly. I have surfed sea whitewater boats for years and now having a true surf boat, couldn't imagine intentionally taking a whitewater boat to the beach to surf it. If a whitewater boats had the aggressive rail design of a surf boat it may have problems in the river. Edgier boats can get hung up easily in rocks, slides, and sharp hydraulics. That said, Fluid Kayaks has an interesting new play boat design that is said to surf ocean waves extremely well. One thing I would not do with whitewater boat designs and designers is try to put hard and fast rules on them as they are breaking barriers in performance frequently. Pro surfers will tell you they appreciate the lighter weight of the composite surf designs for edge to edge transitions. I tend to agree, even with my simple background. For what it is worth, I don't even blink about adding a new boat to the fleet.Creek boats and play boats, surf boats and sea kayaks all have their place. Playful sea boats and gear haulers, folders, traditional skin on frame and slalom boats. Can we ever have enough? The answer is no. We need the ones designed well enough for what we want out of paddling. If it was me, and I wanted to maximize my joy of surfing ocean waves, I'd get a surf boat. Not only that, it keeps the hardware on my river boats from getting all rusty. Cheers, Rob G In a message dated 9/24/2007 7:01:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time, crjungers_at_gmail.com writes: You are facing the same dilemma I was facing when I posted about a "sea kayak playboat" a year or so ago. I really don't think that there is anything that will cover both a w/w playboat and an ocean surfer although probably the Zip by Necky would come close except when you have to paddle a ways to get out or to the surf zone. I think that it's inescapable that you'll end up with two kayaks (at least) for ocean surf and for river play. You should realize that most w/w paddlers have more than one boat just for rivers; I have 3. My wife sold her sit-on-top w/w kayak but I thought it was a POS anyway. She thinks I should sell the rest but I'm having a problem with that. So, having no luck at finding a sea-kayak playboat I bought a Mariner Express with the idea that its relatively small size (and no dangling bits like rudders) it would serve for close coastal and rock gardens. So far it's been a real joy but I've never had it in ocean surf. Several Paddlewisers have though so maybe they could comment. I don't believe an Express would be suitable on rivers though; for one thing it's 16-feet long and it's fiberglass and my recollection of fiberglass w/w boats is that they end up in pieces after one season. The Mariner Coaster, at about 13 feet, has a reputation as a very good ocean playboat for surfing and rock gardens. I've put one on my wish-list but, again, I don't think it would make a good river playboat even in graphite/kevlar form. Mariner will happily build either of these for you since they are now back in the kayak biz. Go to www.marinerkayaks.com for the link. In the UK there is a kayak called the "Rockhopper" (http://www.teksport.co.uk/rockhopper_kayaks.htm) that looks as if it would make a very good playboat for tidal races and rock gardens. It has an adjustable skeg to help get you to the playspot and looks more like what I would think a sea kayaking playboat would. It's not cheap to buy and with the US dollar equal to 2 British pounds it's even pricier. Plus you have to get it here; I don't know of a US distributor. I talked to a paddler at Deception Pass who has paddled the Rockhopper and he was enthusastic. Still, I would rather have a "real" w/w boat on a river. If I were still doing w/w my choice would be one of the Jackson boats (maybe the Super Hero since I'm a pretty big guy) for rivers and for ocean play I would be looking hard at a Mariner Coaster. Right now I'm pretty happy with the Express since it's a 7-hour drive to the ocean but only 2.5 hrs to Puget Sound so rock gardens are pretty tame within a day-drive. Rob Gibbert would have good insights on this, I think, since he still does both ocean surf and w/w rivers. I'm sure that Chuck Holst (forgive me if I've misremembered your name Chuck) would also have valuable input. Good luck, Craig Jungers Royal City, WA ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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