Paddlewisers, Recently, there was a discussion about immersion gear here on Paddlewise. Then I just received the SK mag email newsletter, which also had info about immersion gear. Once again, people who wear immersion gear are made out to be safe kayakers. I think too much emphasis is put on immersion gear at the expense of skills and judgment. Everytime a kayaker dies of hypothermia, it seems the blame is put on not wearing any or enough immersion gear. I disagree. I blame the hypothermia deaths on not having the skills and judgment to stay out of the water. Sure, there is a time and place for immersion gear, but I think a lot of people are using it to make up for having less than enough skills and judgment. It's sort of like feeling safe when driving recklessly because your car has an air bag and your seat belt is on. All immersion gear is doing is buying a little more time in the water. If you are in the water and can't get back in your kayak in a few minutes, you're not getting back in. If you're not close enough to swim to shore or don't have a rescue on the way, and the water is cold enough, you are going to die, even with immersion gear. Having the skills and judgment to stay out of the water beats the best immersion gear. Don't get me wrong. There are times when I wear immersion gear, mainly when surfing or practicing rolls and rescues. Occasionally when the conditions are rough and I'm touring, I'll wear only enough to be comfortable in case of a brief swim. But most of the time I'm dressed for the air temperature, wind and some splashing. However, I also know that at my skill and judgment level, the chances of me spending more than a few minutes in the water are very small. For the same reason, I don't wear a helmet in my car in case of a traffic accident. And by the way, a dry suit with only a thin layer of long underwear for insulation is barely immersion gear. Duane Strosaker Southern California www.rollordrown.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Duane Strosaker wrote, "And by the way, a dry suit with only a thin layer of long underwear for insulation is barely immersion gear." Was getting ready to respond to Chuck's original post on swimming/not swimming after a capsize and this email nailed me. I'd take Duane's comment one click further: a thin layer of long underwear is not immersion gear. Chuck will remember about ten years ago -- my Navy colleague who I interested in sea kayaking was paddling alone on Lake Erie during Thanksgiving weekend -- alone, cold (40s?) water, in his brand new Kokatat (if memory serves, which it doesn't) dry suit. Oh, but it was hot, so he wore cotton shorts and a tee shirt under the drysuit, and, oh, it was really hot so he had the suit unzipped at the top. He had about two months experience in kayaks, and he didn't make it to the takeout that day. Two weeks later, a very impressive military funeral at Arlington -- caisson, mounted escort, the works. Cold water kills. Joq *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Duane said (snip): > Paddlewisers, > > Recently, there was a discussion about immersion gear here on Paddlewise. > Then I just received the SK mag email newsletter, which also had info > about immersion gear. Once again, people who wear immersion gear are made > out to be safe kayakers. > > I think too much emphasis is put on immersion gear at the expense of > skills and judgment. Everytime a kayaker dies of hypothermia, it seems the > blame is put on not wearing any or enough immersion gear. I disagree. I > blame the hypothermia deaths on not having the skills and judgment to stay > out of the water. Sure, there is a time and place for immersion gear, but > I think a lot of people are using it to make up for having less than > enough skills and judgment. It's sort of like feeling safe when driving > recklessly because your car has an air bag and your seat belt is on. What I got out of the editor's perspective resonated with widespread reality. What I got out of reading comments from some of the industry leaders was that Duane isn't too far of the mark here - though I took the sentiments as in, if you aren't skilled, then you should be wearing a drysuit sort of thing. While I can shake my head at that, I'm also reminded of the advanced paddlers I know who say, hey, I'm skilled at this stage of the game, I don't need no stinking drysuit. So, where does that leave the newbie's supposedly erroneous proposition that he or she should be in a drysuit (immersion gear) when one hears the corro;;ory argument from the advanced paddler? The issue of insulation is a bit of a red herring, if one assumes the inclusion of a drysuit as one's immersion apparel corresponds with appropriate layers underneath for the conditions, etc. Though, Duane does a service by reminding us about the false sense a security a dry layer of synthetic material can leaves a paddler with. But hey, the fact that various sources are discussing this is a goog thing. It's all good. Doug *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> Recently, there was a discussion about immersion gear here on Paddlewise. Then I just received the SK mag email newsletter, which also had info about immersion gear. Once again, people who wear immersion gear are made out to be safe kayakers. >> I think too much emphasis is put on immersion gear at the expense of skills and judgment. Watch out Duane, your treading perilously close to "the dark side" here. The next thing ya know you might start preaching that the use of pfd's is just not "all that" either :-) Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Nov 8, 2007, at 11:54 PM, Duane Strosaker wrote: > I think too much emphasis is put on immersion gear at the expense > of skills and judgment. Personally, I don't treat "skills" as any different than gear. Having a really reliable roll or other skills is really not much different than having really good gear. Technology has a way of failing at the most inconvenient times. Skills are just another form of technology like a dry suit or paddle float. Bones break, joints fail, heads get bumped, breath runs out, etc. Obviously judgment can also fail. Even the most experienced paddler can experience a lapse in attention. Its like the woodworkers missing a finger. They generally lost it late in their career when the table saw lost some of its ability to scare them. They took off the blade guard long ago and relied on good technique to avoid danger, then there was this one piece of wood that just needed a little bit off the side... The best we can do is try to cover all our bases. Have plans for when skills fail, have plans for when gear fails, and have plans for when judgment fails. Don't rely on gear, skill or judgment individually or even two at a time, but on all of them simultaneously and understand that some day even that may not be enough. In the end this takes judgment so it is never quite on the same plain as skills and equipment, but they are all subject to failure. I did a study on boating deaths a few years back. Most happen for boaters with less than 100 hours of experience. After that the fatality rate drops precipitously. For a while. When experience starts climbing up into years, the fatality rate starts climbing again. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nick Schade wrote: > I did a study on boating deaths a few years back. Most happen for > boaters with less than 100 hours of experience. After that the fatality > rate drops precipitously. For a while. When experience starts climbing > up into years, the fatality rate starts climbing again. Nick, this is to important to bury in another thread. How much does it climb, for which segment of experienced paddlers (hairballers, old fogey-style paddlers, or everybody?), and after how many years? You said "boaters," so does that mean it was across the entire spectrum of boating, including power boating? -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave, It was fatality rates for all boaters, not just paddlers. I would need to dig around to find the data again. It was data from the Coast Guard for recreational boaters. I don't remember the exact scale of the graph but the fatality rate (deaths per person-boating-hours) started high with inexperienced boaters, dropped quite quickly around 100 hours as people got more experience, leveled out for a while before making a long, slow climb as the boater's experience level grew over years. It kind of makes sense in that those boaters doing the most dangerous things (going far off shore, in bad weather) are likely to be those with the most experience. If you want more detail, I will try to dig up the data and see how accurate my memory really is. Nick On Nov 9, 2007, at 10:34 AM, Dave Kruger wrote: > Nick Schade wrote: > >> I did a study on boating deaths a few years back. Most happen for >> boaters with less than 100 hours of experience. After that the >> fatality rate drops precipitously. For a while. When experience >> starts climbing up into years, the fatality rate starts climbing >> again. > > Nick, this is to important to bury in another thread. > > How much does it climb, for which segment of experienced paddlers > (hairballers, old fogey-style paddlers, or everybody?), and after > how many years? > > You said "boaters," so does that mean it was across the entire > spectrum of boating, including power boating? > Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 11/9/07, Nick Schade <nick_at_guillemot-kayaks.com> wrote: > > > I don't remember the exact scale of the graph but the fatality rate > (deaths per person-boating-hours) started high with inexperienced > boaters, dropped quite quickly around 100 hours as people got more > experience, leveled out for a while before making a long, slow climb > as the boater's experience level grew over years. It's interesting to compare this with airplane pilots. Because flying is a heavily regulated activity even for amateurs there are a lot of data available. The statistics are interesting because the data collected is so detailed. When there is an accident the NTSB and FAA collect data on pilot age, pilot total hours, pilot total hours in type (of aircraft), pilot ratings (instrument ratings, etc.) aircraft type, and more. Because they undergo a rigorous training schedule with 50 hours (typically) of flight time as a trainee there is a rather low accident rate until they get up to about 100 hours. However, overall, the highest accident rates for airplane pilots are for those with fewer than 500 hours. Airplane pilots with less than 1000 hours have about 50% of all accidents and 50% of all fatal accidents. After that the accident rates decline until a pilot has over 4000 hours when they rise again significantly. A report on 2005 is available at the link below. It's fascinating reading. http://download.aopa.org/epilot/2006/06nall.pdf Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nick Schade wrote: > Dave, > It was fatality rates for all boaters, not just paddlers. > If you want more detail, I will try to dig up the data and see how > accurate my memory really is. That's OK. Not that big a deal. I just figured it was age overcoming treachery. [grin] -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I did a study on boating deaths a few years back. Most happen for > boaters with less than 100 hours of experience. After that the > fatality rate drops precipitously. For a while. When experience > starts climbing up into years, the fatality rate starts climbing again. > > Nick Schade As experience climbs into years, something else climbs as well: one's age. As you get older, your body breaks -- or breaks down -- more easily and takes longer to heal. Strength and endurance decrease. Take me for example: I'm 63. I can't portage a canoe by myself anymore because I have only a partial disc in my back. I have to watch what I eat because I have heart disease. Last year I practiced capsizing backwards one evening while trying some Greenland techniques, and the next day I had a painful herniated disc in my neck that lasted about six months. Shortly after I recovered from that, my left foot broke down while I was out for a brisk walk, an injury I am still not quite recovered from. We canceled two trips to the Apostle Islands this year because my wife was suffering from vertigo before the first trip and ganglion cysts in her wrists (from gardening and landscaping) before the second trip. During our third attempt, nine miles into our 11.1-mile crossing to Devils Island, my wife strained a muscle in her arm on what was for us a normally easy paddle in near-ideal conditions, which caused us to cancel the rest of the trip. None of this would have been a factor 10-15 years ago. One of the ironies of life is that for many of us just as we finally acquire the experience we want or need, we lose the ability to take advantage of it. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Nov 9, 2007, at 2:03 PM, cholst_at_bitstream.net wrote: >> I did a study on boating deaths a few years back. Most happen for >> boaters with less than 100 hours of experience. After that the >> fatality rate drops precipitously. For a while. When experience >> starts climbing up into years, the fatality rate starts climbing >> again. > > As experience climbs into years, something else climbs as well: > one's age. > As you get older, your body breaks -- or breaks down -- more easily > and > takes longer to heal. Strength and endurance decrease. Unfortunately, our assessment of our own abilities does not always keep pace with the reality of our declining abilities. What may have been a sound decision with a 35 year old body, may not be wise with same body years later and the mind has not yet made the adjustment. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Friday 09 November 2007 15:40, Martin wrote: > Two weeks later, a very impressive military funeral at Arlington -- > caisson, mounted escort, the works. Cold water kills. Could it be expressed better?! Tord PS Sad end to a glorious life, I bet, but 'c'est la vie!' *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Friday 09 November 2007 18:19, Nick wrote: > I did a study on boating deaths a few years back. Most happen for > boaters with less than 100 hours of experience. After that the > fatality rate drops precipitously. For a while. When experience > starts climbing up into years, the fatality rate starts climbing again. I've done similar studies of US canard aircraft fatalities, concerning homebuilts, and the statistics are very much the same, most fatalities were either tyros (and their passengers), or just too laid back operators! And I guess the same is true in traffic, and elsewhere - where lack of experience, and too much, can be equally lethal! Tord, a pro driver! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Friday 09 November 2007 20:37, someone wrote: > I think too much emphasis is put on immersion gear at the expense of > skills and judgment. Everytime a kayaker dies of hypothermia, it seems > the blame is put on not wearing any or enough immersion gear. I > disagree. I blame the hypothermia deaths on not having the skills and > judgment to stay out of the water. Sure, there is a time and place for > immersion gear, but I think a lot of people are using it to make up for > having less than enough skills and judgment. It's sort of like feeling > safe when driving recklessly because your car has an air bag and your > seat belt is on. As Nick wrote, skills and safety gear, complement each other, and both have a habit of failing when you most need them! Judgment has a habit of being blunted by experience, as most of us know - it is as likely a 'pro' will get into a fatal situation as a tyro, the latter because he/she doesn't know better, the former because he knows too much, and thinks he's beyond mere mistakes! A friend's father was head of the surgical department of a big hospital, naturally he mis-diagnosed himself, and almost died of a burst appendix! Another found to his horror that one of his legs was slightly shorter than the other, so he put a huge operation in motion - resulting in a lot of bad side effects, pain, and eventually two years lost, recuperating! I've been aboard ships catching fire at sea (just a few died, later the same Norwegian arsonist was the culprit of over 50 deaths), been sailing with friends offshore in 50 knot winds, and been aboard submersibles in over 40 knot winds (very scary, as the rig couldn't be trimmed level, due to mechanical/electrical faults). And then a few storms, boats ramming each other (happily, no-one fatally hurt) and a few other mishaps at sea - none fatal! I sincerely think that emergency gear as important as skills, While either can fail, the former is easier to maintain in top trim! Naturally, I hope both to be in top trim, for ever, but I am not that conceted! Tord, sorry about any spelling mistakes (English not being my mother's tongue!). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Paddlewisers, Generally, I agree with the replies. But if I think I might be in the water so long that I should wear immersion gear to help me survive, then I should question why I'm going there at all. A better choice would be to paddle more benign waters. It's fine to think of immersion gear for comfort, but to think of it as for survival is a dangerous mind set. Duane Strosaker Who, while kayak surfing today, wore a wetsuit, not for survival, but rather for comfort! www.rollordrown.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Friday 16 November 2007 18:48, Janellen wrote: > But ultimately it is all a matter of personal choice an judgement. > Gear won't keep us from dying but neither will our skills if we are > incapacitated. So I'll work on my skills so that I needn't rely on > my gear and I'll wear my gear in case my skills fail and I'll accept > that the sport has risks. But then on this list, we all do. Very wisely put - neither skills, nor equipment, can be relied on as being bomb-proof, so trying to cover both bases increases our chances a lot. A friend almost died when he had a massive lumbago while out paddling alone in the sea. Eventually, after a very long day totally incapacitated, he got back to base (I think his wife and friends went looking for him). Some time later it happened again - and after that he realised that he had to quit paddling for ever - or die young! Moved away from his loved island, trying to readjust, further inland. Tough guy, but he was wise enough to realize that even if he had superb equipment, and skills far beyond mine, it sometimes doesn't help one bit! Tord *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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