The subject of this post will be at least partially refuted if PaddleWisers are are allowed to read it; otherwise, this email may wind up in e-Limbo somewhere ..... but it's leaving my computer at 1055 EDT. I became involved with PaddleWise about nine years ago -- just after Jackie restarted the list following the great pontoon wars on the list's predecessor. As I recall, the server generated a built-in delay on new members' posts while they were screened for appropriateness and value -- and that's totally appropriate, and was all the more appropriate under the conditions at the time. But, after a member had shown himself/herself worthy and discreet, my recollection is that posts came out almost immediately after being sent. It appears that the list -- described as "semi-moderated" on the Web site -- is being screened much more thoroughly now. (Several years ago, I dropped out of active participation on PaddleWise, and have returned only recently -- and mostly as a lurker.) My concern with the apparent governance of the list is that my few posts may or may not appear on PaddleWise, and, if they do appear, it's frequently many hours if not days after they were sent. My background and my primary interests center on safety and on search and rescue issues -- from my history as a Navy CSAR pilot and a Navy accident investigator -- so there's often some time-sensitivity to my posts. Like many organizations and communities, I realize that PaddleWise is not a democracy: I don't understand nor need to understand how lists are owned or used, and I recognize that they may -- and, to some degree -- probably should be monitored and controlled. My concern is that a healthy conversation within a community should be allowed to become as free and as synchronous as possible -- tempered by the personal credentials of the poster. (In my current work in defense and intelligence communications, I've grown to appreciate the value of synchronous "chat", and the collaboration values that result from the free, near-realtime interchange of data and information. Even in areas involving security, the onus is on the producer of data or information to push this knowledge to all cleared participants in the network -- and that clearance is often determined by the credentials -- we call them "attributes" -- of the potential receiver of the information or that receiver's right to respond to the information provided.) Something of the sort could be used by PaddleWise to offset the potential confusion -- and the individual frustration -- caused by delays or deliberate elimination of information posted to the list. PaddleWise is an incredibly rich information environment, but the spontaneous nature of the list in earlier days is now missing -- and it's a serious detractor to the value of the collaborative functions of the list in an international and multi-cultural environment -- where the shared interest and the common denominator -- is sea kayaking. Jack "Joq" Martin Canoe Neck Creek Abell, Maryland *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jack wrote: SNIP PaddleWise is an incredibly rich information environment, but the spontaneous nature of the list in earlier days is now missing -- and it's a serious detractor to the value of the collaborative functions of the list in an international and multi-cultural environment -- where the shared interest and the common denominator -- is sea kayaking. Jack, et al, I joined Paddlewise around the same time as you and lately I have become aware that my ability to effectively join discussions has been diminished. While Craig, Doug, Dave and others can conduct a discussion essentially in real time, I find my posts take days to show up. I once questioned this and I was told that my posts would show up sooner if I stripped off the "Paddlewise" message at the bottom. So I obeyed this but it didn't seem to make a difference. Maybe it's a "top post/bottom post" etiquette thing. Anyway, when a subject gets discussed where I want to add my input, I have resisted doing so (this being an exception). I feel that by the time it shows up no one cares anymore. Bill Leonhardt Posted 11:25 AM EDT 23APR09 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Apr 23, 2009, at 10:25 AM, Leonhardt, William J wrote: > Jack wrote: > This response is being sent at 12:05 pm Central Time, USA. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I also feel that my mails are censored and sometimes I have to send them twice before they get published. I have learned that the trend of the list is moved by two or three guys. Very smart and well informed, but basically usually the same guys. It takes time to read something of the subject from somebody not so well known in the list. May just be my impression, but now that you mention it I feel I am not alone. Best Regards, Rafael Mexico www.mayanseas.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Leonhardt, William J wrote: > I joined Paddlewise around the same time as you and lately I have become > aware that my ability to effectively join discussions has been > diminished. While Craig, Doug, Dave and others can conduct a discussion > essentially in real time, I find my posts take days to show up. I once > questioned this and I was told that my posts would show up sooner if I > stripped off the "Paddlewise" message at the bottom. So I obeyed this > but it didn't seem to make a difference. Maybe it's a "top post/bottom > post" etiquette thing. Anyway, when a subject gets discussed where I > want to add my input, I have resisted doing so (this being an > exception). I feel that by the time it shows up no one cares anymore. Man, I did not realize I was getting any special treatment. There have been a few contributions of mine which got sidetracked for a while the last couple months, but I just blew it off as some sort of artifact. It will be a cold day in hell when I harass anybody who _volunteers_ their time to manage one of these lists ... like Joq and Bill and others, I suffered through "laissez-faire" moderation during the Timmy times on Wavelength. In fact, most of my contributions to the 'Net ether these days are on West Coast Paddler, a Canadian site with a regional focus, but global participation, which has _intense_ moderation. I'm sure Craig will agree with that statement, as he got crosswise with one of the owners of that site and no longer contributes. It is that intense moderation which assists in the high level of participatin. The long and short of it is that whatever management "style" a moderator takes, he/she will piss off some and not others ... and I am sure Kirk will respond to this debate in time. I bet if we all just kinda chill, he will take care of it. This is my last contribution to any discussion of list policy, as Kirk does not need this kind of trouble. I suspect direct communication with Kirk is the way to go. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'll suggest one other possible reason that can explain correlative experiences... ISPs route mail through various servers. Some servers and router nodes are notorious (or considered as such) for also being entry points for spammers. This means that innocent mail that gets routed through one of these nodes may be tagged by a filter and dumped into a delay or holding pattern. If your ISP follows the rules, they are not supposed to subcontract mail routing in certain ways....but some ISPs have reputations for violating these guidelines. They don't violate them consistently, so sometimes your mail may go through quickly, sometimes not...and sometimes mail to servers that host listservs are more particular than those hosting individual accounts. In otherwords---the premise that because people's mail does not 'go through' in a 'timely' manner may be valid.... but the conclusion that this is the result of censorship, um, well, not so much. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com> wrote: > > Man, I did not realize I was getting any special treatment. There have > been a few contributions of mine which got sidetracked for a while the last > couple months, but I just blew it off as some sort of artifact. I have to second Dave's statement. In fact, due to the vagaries of gmail - where I keep my paddling email accounts - I cannot tell whether a post from me has reached the list until someone replies to it. I've a few times that nothing showed up but just assumed no one replied. It will be a cold day in hell when I harass anybody who _volunteers_ their > time to manage one of these lists Ya... it's a job I no longer want. In fact my company recently sold off its ISP due to my intense disinterest in administrating users. > I'm sure Craig will agree with that statement, as he got crosswise with one > of the owners of that site and no longer contributes. It is that intense > moderation which assists in the high level of participatin. I stopped contributing to WestCoastPaddler because I realized that there was an intense nationalistic trend and busting through that proved impossible. No matter how much I tried to make a point (or Dave too, for that matter) the thread kept descending into nationalistic politics with Americans on the bad-guy side. When the moderators refused to even recognize that there was a problem I decided that my contributions to that forum were a waste of my time and moved along; nothing to see here, folks. No use hanging out with people who have decided they don't like me just because of where I live. > The long and short of it is that whatever management "style" a moderator > takes, he/she will piss off some and not others ... and I am sure Kirk will > respond to this debate in time. I bet if we all just kinda chill, he will > take care of it. This is my last contribution to any discussion of list > policy, as Kirk does not need this kind of trouble. I suspect direct > communication with Kirk is the way to go. > > I agree with this. Moreover I know that I can get burned out. Kirk has been doing this for a long time now and perhaps his interest has flagged. I contribute to Paddlewise because I believe that it's a valuable resource and want to keep it active. I realize that it has a west-coast of North America flavor now but that's only because the most active participants just happen to live on the west coast; more or less. Please continue to post. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig wrote: SNIP I agree with this. Moreover I know that I can get burned out. Kirk has been doing this for a long time now and perhaps his interest has flagged. I contribute to Paddlewise because I believe that it's a valuable resource and want to keep it active. I realize that it has a west-coast of North America flavor now but that's only because the most active participants just happen to live on the west coast; more or less. Craig, Dave, Kirk, et al, I don't want to speak for Jack. Clearly, he has his own issue here but his post triggered in me some of the frustration I have felt lately. I want to be very clear here...IT IS NOT MY INTENT TO HARASS ANYBODY, especially Kirk whose efforts with this list are very much appreciated. My intent was to state my difficulties posting here in the hope that they could be resolved. Others have offered explaniations that seem plausible and essentially outside my control and, I expect, outside the control of the List organization. So be it. I realize now that Craig and Dave and others may be able to communicate in a more timely fashion because they most likely address their comments directly to the other with a copy to the list. I can see where that would speed things up and make it look like your traffic moves quickly. I have received much good and useful information on this list and, I hope, have been able to contribute a little useful info in return. Again, I feel frustrated in my ability to contribute when there was a delay of days in previous posts. I can, however, still receive the info and stay in lurker mode. Craig mentioned that the list has a bit of a west coast of North America flavor now. Perhaps that's where the majority of the traffic is from lately, but I know we have, and have had, people from many other parts of NA, UK, Europe, Middle East, Africa, Austrailia, NZ, etc. contributing. Perhaps their traffic has lessened as the natural order of list evolution sees people coming and going. Or perhaps they have difficulties as well. Bottom line for me is: 1. I don't want to harass anyone. 2. If this can't be fixed, I will go into lurker mode. Bill Leonhardt *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Leonhardt, William J wrote: >I realize now >that Craig and Dave and others may be able to communicate in a more >timely fashion because they most likely address their comments directly >to the other with a copy to the list. I can see where that would speed >things up and make it look like your traffic moves quickly. > > > Your comment brings to mind a point that a lot of folks may not be aware (or forget) - with regards to replying to messages... this list is set up so that if you just hit "reply" your message will only go to the originator of the message and not the entire list. If you select "reply all," a copy will go to the list. It was set up that way to avoid "accidental" and potentially embarrassing broadcasting. :-) Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Another possible wrinkle, is the mail account you are using. While I've never seen anything in "writing" that says my observation is an intended behaviour, I have tried to sign up for some services - maybe it was a MySpace account or something like that were you'd expect them to take all comers, and when I tried to sign up with a gmail account I couldn't get thru the registration. So I tried a yahoo account. Still no go. So I used my commercial paid-for domain name and just added another e-mail account for the purpose and it went thru just fine. I wouldn't be surprised if there's not some extra scrutiny or precautions that are taken for the free accounts maybe at the ISP level or maybe elsewhere that could be fertile ground for spammers. I'm not saying paddlewise does this, I'm just saying... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Leonhardt, William J wrote: <snip> > > Jack, et al, > > I joined Paddlewise around the same time as you and lately I have become > aware that my ability to effectively join discussions has been > diminished. While Craig, Doug, Dave and others can conduct a discussion > essentially in real time, I find my posts take days to show up. I once > questioned this and I was told that my posts would show up sooner if I > stripped off the "Paddlewise" message at the bottom. So I obeyed this > but it didn't seem to make a difference. Maybe it's a "top post/bottom > post" etiquette thing. Anyway, when a subject gets discussed where I > want to add my input, I have resisted doing so (this being an > exception). I feel that by the time it shows up no one cares anymore. > > Bill Leonhardt > > Posted 11:25 AM EDT 23APR09 I was out having a coffee and buying bagels, so I can't be sure when your message arrived, but it's now 2:20 EDT and your message had arrived here. So, at most, there was roughly a 3 hour delay. And I suspect that the actual delay was even less than that. Certainly not days. Any time that there are serious delays, one would expect they were the result of general internet issues, or of local ISP issues (either sending or receiving the mail). I see you're sending from a US government address. Perhaps there is a limit imposed on "external" mail by your own mail servers? I suggest this because I was in IT in the Canadian government and I know we had limits imposed on our mail servers for traffic that didn't originate from, or was addressed to, external addresses. If internal mail was light, external mail would go out right away; but if it was a heavy load, the internal stuff got dealt with first. -- Darryl *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[ moderator edited for top posting - with full previous email including headers and footer ] Yeah, okay -- so I'd like to immediately withdraw the word "censorship" from the subject line. It didn't appear in the text for a reason, but I didn't have the common sense to drop it from the subject line. I realize that this was a provocative and a judgemental tack to take, and I'm sorry it went out that way. That said, it sure hit the list fast! And there have been a lot of midday responses -- as you've seen -- so this may not really difuse the discussion. As much as I'd prefer it to do. Honestly, I'm kinda surprised it even got out -- not considering how fast it got out! Several folks suggested that an off-line to Kirk would have been a more appropriate contact: agree completely, but didn't know who was in charge and didn't take the time to check. Yes, that would have been a better way to go. I especially appreciate Nick Schade's explanation of what it takes to fix something like this: for people like me who don't do software, software is always an easy fix. Point taken. As to spam, roger that. Understand the issue, and am a victim myself. Don't know if a U.S. government email address would be an issue -- my domain, "dot-us -- is not a government environment, strangely enough. (And if it did, it would probably come out encrypted.) So, sorry to wake everyone up. Didn't mean to stir the pot -- at least not the way the post actually did -- and appreciate completely all the efforts that have to be taken to make a list like this work. Whatever they are. Joq Martin [70 lines removed] *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 12:07 PM, Martin, Jack <martin.jack_at_solute.us>wrote: > > Yeah, okay -- so I'd like to immediately withdraw the word "censorship" > from the subject line. It didn't appear in the text for a reason, but I > didn't have the common sense to drop it from the subject line...... ----------------snipity snip----------------- So, sorry to wake everyone up. Didn't mean to stir the pot -- at least > not the way the post actually did -- and appreciate completely all the > efforts that have to be taken to make a list like this work. Whatever > they are. Ya, stuff happens. I'm glad that *I* have never flown off on a tangent. :P I'm a little sad to learn that I haven't been treated special. Or even "special". Rats. I thought it might have been my scintillating writing style. :D Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 5:16 PM, Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net wrote On Thursday April 23 at 5:16 PM Craig Jungers wrote: Ya, stuff happens. I'm glad that *I* have never flown off on a tangent. :P I'm a little sad to learn that I haven't been treated special. Or even "special". Rats. I thought it might have been my scintillating writing style. Craig I just could not resist. Actually I started out with Sharpie, crossing out words at random. It looked pretty impressive until I relized I'd have to send my monitor for it to make sense. ;) Found your comments about a certain Canadian based site disappointing. Don't those three little letters stand for world wide web. Nationalism should not cross borders. Paddlewise is a great forum. I like the breadth and width of the posts, I also celebrate the diversity. It's not always the same 12 guys posting - it's just Craig and Dave Krugger with two hundred allias. Kirk deserves a pat on the back for what must at time seem to be a thankless job that nevertheless is well done. Maybe we should hold an on line or virtual roast. I assume that few of us have actually met the man. My imagination is starting to run to the wild side here. We could subject him to a proper paddling. Or maybe not. Gordin Warner Victoria BC *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[ more moderator intervention for spam word trigger ] I run a discussion group at kayakforum.com and that experience can provide some insight into the running of this kind of list-serve. My discussion group gets hit by a lot of spam. I have set up filters that catches a fair amount of it, but some still gets through and of greater concern, many legitimate posts get caught in it. And there I let them die. The amount of traffic is not great, but since I have other things to do I really can't keep up with reviewing and approving the mis-blocked messages. The quality of the discussion on my board undoubtedly suffers as a result. There are a myriad of different ways that this situation could be improved. Some software base - better filtering, some interface based - captcha etc, some person based - getting volunteers to do the work for me. These all have their trade-offs. Better software requires time to install/maintain/update. Interface changes require software changes or tweaks, again time. I could require registration fairly easily, which would allow blocking of bad-actors and promotion of good-actors, but this requires time and administration as well. Getting more volunteers can and does help, but they may not be reliable, they need to agree on standards of administration and they have to be trained. But, the bottom line is, someone has to do the work that keeps a discussion group going. There is always room for improvement in how a group like this is run, but those changes require someone with the time, energy and means to do it. Personally, I think that Paddlewise is run well. I continue to subscribe to it because I like the discussions. It may not be perfect, but it is good enough for me. Nick On Apr 23, 2009, at 11:03 AM, Martin, Jack wrote: > The subject of this post will be at least partially refuted if > PaddleWisers are are allowed to read it; otherwise, this email may > wind > up in e-Limbo somewhere ..... but it's leaving my computer at 1055 > EDT. > > .... > > PaddleWise is an incredibly rich information environment, but the > spontaneous nature of the list in earlier days is now missing -- and > it's a serious detractor to the value of the collaborative functions > of > the list in an international and multi-cultural environment -- where > the > shared interest and the common denominator -- is sea kayaking. > Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 54 South Rd Groton, CT 06340 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 09:03:46 -0600, "Martin, Jack" <martin.jack_at_solute.us> said: > The subject of this post will be at least partially refuted if > PaddleWisers are are allowed to read it; otherwise, this email may wind > up in e-Limbo somewhere ..... but it's leaving my computer at 1055 EDT. I just "moderated" 8 email which got bounced to me as moderator, give it another half hour for them to arrive - comcast can be slow... None of the posts were banished for content or complete lack there of. If someone posted and they don't see it by morning they can contact me directly and we can start digging into why someone's posts didn't make the round trip. Kirk -- Kirk Olsen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[ moderator intervening - spam is ugly thus the word spam triggers moderation ] On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 09:03:46AM -0600, Martin, Jack wrote: > My concern with the apparent governance of the list is that my few > posts may or may not appear on PaddleWise, and, if they do appear, > it's frequently many hours if not days after they were sent. There are multiple possible causes for this, one of which is "human being(s) in the loop reviewing messages before letting them through". Among the other possible causes are ordinary delays in email. The SMTP protocol which transmits email is NOT designed to provide real-time performance; while it may do so under some ideal circumstances some of the time, it should never be counted on to do so under general conditions. As I've put it in haiku form: Mail is not the web Mail is not for file transfer Mail is not I M Moreover, many mail system operators have adopted strategies that *deliberately* impose significant delays on email tranmission and reception as they attempt to cope with an environment where at _least_ 95% of all traffic is abuse: spam, viruses, worms, backscatter, etc. And on top of all that, the general level of clue among mail system operators has unfortunately declined rather sharply in the last decade, leading to a surprisingly large number of situations where issues with reliable/timely mail delivery pointed out by of X should actually be laid at the feet of the people running the mail server(s) that X uses. Thus, the cause could be: - botched mail system config on your end - botched mail system config on the list server - anti-spam mitigation in place on your end - anti-spam mitigation in place on the list server - network issues between you and them - botched or inconsistent DNS config on your end - botched or inconsistent DNS config on the list server - etc. or more than one or something else that I haven't listed here. As an example entirely unrelated to *this* list, I recently received and investigated a complaint from a member of a list that's hosted on my servers. This person said that there was a consistent three-hour delay in messages delivered to them, and excoriated me for my "incompetence". It turns out that the delay was due to this person's own mail server, which was imposing a 3-hour graylisting period on all incoming traffic, and thus the cause of his difficulties was sitting in a computer room just down the hall from him. I have no idea what's in play here because I haven't done any investigation. But I would caution against drawing any conclusions, and would certainly caution against throwing out the word "censorship", until all the facts are known and carefully analyzed. ---Rsk day job: Senior Internet Security Architect participant, Internet Engineering Task Force Anti-Spam Research Group *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[ At the risk of diverting into email policy, but since multiple people have brought it up...I'm going to try to cover all points in one message instead of sending multiple followups. I think if those goes any further, we should take it off-list. ---Rsk ] Nitpicking point of order: Paddlewise isn't a listserve. It's a mailing list. Listserves are a subset of mailing lists, and are only those which are run by ListServ software. The rest of use run our lists with Mailman (currently best available option), majordomo, listproc, ezmlm, or other software. So they're just "mailing lists", that is, there's no special terminology for them. Captchas: Captchas are (a) a very bad idea and (b) largely ineffective. [Some] spammers pay appallingly low wages (by western standards) to people in third-world countries to sit in cybercafes (or equivalent) and solve them for 15 hours a day. Or they solve them programmatically, and given the increasing sophistication of those programs, we have already passed the point where "captcha elaborate enough to evade automatic decoding" is not "captcha easy enough that a typical human being can decode it". This is the death knell for captchas. Not to mention that they don't work for the visually-impaired or for people who aren't using GUI interfaces. Like me, right now, and most of the time, in fact. Captchas earned their own section in the anti-spam book I'm writing; they're included in the chapter on ill-conceived and/or obsolete techniques. ;-) Anti-spam: If you're really getting that much spam, then the problem is quite likely your perimeter defenses. (See below for discussion of the DROP list.) We here at RockAndWater run a number of paddling-related mailing lists (and are happy to host more), and we use a layered approach to anti-spam, beginning with: the firewall. Particularly egregious spammers get their packets dropped before they get anywhere near a mail server. We follow that up with aggressive filtering at the SMTP level, using DNSBLs, local blacklists (of networks, hosts, subdomains, domains, users, etc.) and we enforce mail server sanity checks (e.g., forward and reverse DNS must exist). And on the lists themselves, we enforce members-only: anything else that makes it that far gets queued for moderator attention. We typically see one message a week that makes it that far, and almost all of those are messages from list-members who are sending from an address other than the one they're subscribed at. Mailman (which is what we use) makes it easy to deal with those. In the cases where it really *is* spam (a) we discard it and (b) we often add it to the appropriate place in the anti-spam config so that we won't be bothered by that particular source again. We *do not* use content filters per se. Content filters (a) perform poorly (b) require lots of resources and (c) really aren't necessary given all the other stuff we're doing. And while they were marginally effective for a while some years ago, spammers have long since evolved very sophisticated methods for fooling them. It's become a battle wherein increasingly large resources are being expended (on our side) for rapidly decreasing reward. Moreover, content filters often trip over unobtrusive content, a simple example of which is "discussion about spam" vs. "spam". So -- and this will surprise some of you -- we reject almost all the spam that we reject *before we even see the body of the message*. We don't need to wait for it; we know what's coming. So we issue a reject notice and hang up the connection, so to speak. (Think of it this way: if the last 10,000 times we heard from the host, it was trying to deliver spam... then on the 10,001st, it's probably trying to deliver spam.) So -- slightly repeating myself -- if you're getting THAT much spam, then most likely it's not being aggressively rejected upstream. If you're running a paddling resource, and you'd like me to review your configuration, I can do that, provided you have access to the necessary info about it. No charge: I consider it good river karma to help out where possible. (Non-paddling resource? Let's discuss my exorbitant and entirely unreasonable consulting rates.) Step 1.0 that you should have already done: If you run a mail server, or mailing list, or web-based forum, or ANYTHING, then you want to go here: http://www.spamhaus.org/DROP/ and download the Spamhaus DROP list. DROP stands for "Don't Route Or Peer", which is network-geek-speak for "don't talk to or listen to these networks". The DROP list contains networks that are 100% spammer-owned-and-operated, or hjiacked, or both. Not only do you not want email from these chunks of network space, you don't want ANY traffic at all. Nor do you want to send them any. Nothing good (for you) will come of it. "You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainry." Yeah, that's what the DROP list covers. The DROP list is best used in your perimeter routers and/or firewalls. It comes in CIDR format (and if you're network-clueful, you know what that is). The drill is: download it once a month, install in your devices along with the moral equivalent of "drop all packets to/from", and enjoy the very nice reduction in malicious traffic of all kinds. If you don't control the network your resource is on, then you might be able to implement the drop list in the application you're running, whether it's SMTP or HTTP or whatnot. The DROP list easily integrates with most sane mail systems and web servers. Side-effects of spam: At least one person commented along these lines: "I'm not getting mail that I want because my mail provider is blocking it." This isn't uncommon. However, don't blame your own ISP without a full understanding. It may well be the case -- and it often is -- that the source of "mail you want" is precisely the same as the source of "a lot of spam". You see, some unscrupulous ISPs/web hosts will sell services to (a) legitimate customers and (b) spammers and then deliberately locate them in the same network block, adjacent to each other, like this: [...] 192.168.0.23 niceperson1.com 192.168.0.24 spammer1.com 192.168.0.25 niceperson2.org 192.168.0.26 spammer2.com [...] Particularly unscrupulous ISPs/web hosts will actually swap the IP addresses of legit/spamming customers or pull other tricks designed to render blocking techniques less effective. This is called "using a human shield" and it's designed to blackmail others into accepting their traffic by generating pressure from customers who are upset about "not getting mail they want". (As well as pressure from niceperson1.com, who are often totally unaware that they're being used in this fashion.) So don't be surprised if the reason your ISP is rejecting the handful of messages you want is that they're coming down the same pipe (or "tube" if you're former Senator Ted Stevens) as thousands of spams per hour. It's an ugly business. Competence: One of the unfortunate things that's happened this decade is that a frighteningly large number of mail system admins who have little clue about email and even less about spam have decided to "solve" their problem by deploying some very poorly designed and built anti-spam systems. Many of these "solve" the problem by redirecting it, which is the email equivalent of cleaning up the trash in your yard by picking a random neighbor's and throwing it in theirs. (Google for "backscatter" for an explanation of this.) They've been aided and abetted in this by any number of vendors which have sprung into existence in order to make a quick buck from the Internet's collective misery. Some of these vendors charge rather a lot of coin to provide some really bad systems. (Ours is entirely built using open-source tools and data sources, and is far better than any offering from any vendor.) Anyway, among the numerous downsides of this is the difficulty in convincing said mail system admins that they're doing something wrong. "It works for me", they will often reply, and yes, just as much as throwing their trash in someone else's yard does, "it works for them". It has actually proven necessary to (a) publicly name-and-shame some of them and/or (b) blacklist them, in order to direct their attention to the fact that they're selfishly making the problem worse. For example: http://www.backscatterer.org/ which (as of 11:22 PM 23 Apr 2009) lists 439260 individual IP addresses that are busily engaged in making our lives worse by doing the throw-your-trash-at-someone-else trick. And those are just the ones seen within the last four weeks, and "seen" by the people running that particular list -- so it's a tip-of-the-tip-of-the-iceberg. Finally: Keep in mind that SMTP (which is the protocol that moves mail around) is *designed* to be "best effort" and no better. It performs incredibly well despite that, and despite the fact that mail servers are under 24x7 assault by a LOT of attackers, some of whom are very clueful, and some of whom have a lot of resources to throw at them. So my advice is that we should all be very cautious about pointing fingers at anybody about any non-delivery/delayed delivery of email messages. A lot of the time, the explanation is benign. ---Rsk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This may or may not be relevant to this discussion, but several of my friends and I had the experience that our e-mails were being blocked, not for content, but for shear volume of traffic generated. The blocking rules were installed by the ISP at the other end. But at least there were warning notices of the blockages. The curious thing is that people who had paid good money for internet service were being denied the very e-mail they wished to receive. Brad Crain > On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 09:03:46AM -0600, Martin, Jack wrote: >> My concern with the apparent governance of the list is that my few >> posts may or may not appear on PaddleWise, and, if they do appear, >> it's frequently many hours if not days after they were sent. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Brad: I'm sorry for your blockage problems Brad. Prunes? Mineral oil? Suppositories? Maybe good old fashion Exlaxs? Brad said: >This may or may not be relevant to this discussion, but several of my friends and I had the experience that our e-mails were being blocked, not for content, but for shear volume of traffic generated. The blocking rules were installed by the ISP at the other end. But at least there were warning notices of the blockages. The curious thing is that people who had paid good money for internet service were being denied the very e-mail they wished to receive. Brad Crain< Bill: Bill said, snip > Anyway, when a subject gets discussed where I want to add my input, I have resisted doing so (this being an exception). I feel that by the time it shows up no one cares anymore.< I always enjoy every last post, even late ones. Heck, I send late ones myself. I usually don't care if the discussion is over. Sometimes my messages don't show up. I don't care either - usually after I vent, the subject disinterests me almost right away. Sometimes it is a good thing they don't show up as I don't retain a lawyer. As for posts on the list showing up near the end of the discussion - I'm usually anticipating a last-word funny from Brad. I try to get the last word on him once in a while - though it's hard. BTW, some discussions should stay backchannel but we all agreed more or less a couple years back that we would cc the list if possible. Craig; Miss you on Westcoastpaddler. Your participation allowed much of your wisdom to be more easily accessible in perpetuity and searchable on the forum index. Oh well, at least with Paddlewise we never have ignominy ensuing due to a paddler's geographical approximation. That's due to good moderation though we often decry it (an active moderator, that is, restricting certain discussions). I still miss Jackie (there's only one true list mom in my universe). And the Professor, of course. Heard he was showing the Inuit how to jig for Cod with a crotch dirrigible and he got snagged and taken out to sea and lost. I always enjoyed the humour - hook, line and stinker. Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Not that anyone cares, or needs to know, but we have found through experience that blockages can be relieved promptly by traveling to Mexico. Brad Quoting Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca>: > Brad: > I'm sorry for your blockage problems Brad. Prunes? Mineral oil? > Suppositories? Maybe good old fashion Exlaxs? > > Brad said: >This may or may not be relevant to this discussion, but > several of my friends and I had the experience that our e-mails were > being blocked, not for content, but for shear volume of traffic > generated. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 7:40 PM, Bradford R. Crain <crainb_at_pdx.edu> wrote: > Not that anyone cares, or needs to know, but we have found through > experience that blockages can be relieved promptly by traveling to Mexico. > > Gmail puts ads alongside the email that are referenced to part of the email content on the theory that if you are writing about something then you - or someone you're writing to - might be interested. Two of the four ads next to Brad's post were for a laxative. LOL. On a related note, however, and from many years of living in Mexico and South America I can say that I avoid problems by not eating at places frequented by tourists and search out restaurants that cater to local residents and are busy. The theory is that a tourist hotel with a restaurant has already got your money and may not care that you spent your vacation sick in your room. But a local restaurant that gets its clientele sick will not last long. Local restaurants are more likely to be run by owners not employees who also might be more interested in keeping their business going. It's flimsy reasoning but it worked very well for me. And I never eat anywhere that has any cutesy name like "The Tipsy Parrot" or any restaurant with any hint of English in its name. Another tip: Chinese restaurants - owned and operated by emigrants from China - are all over Mexico and S. America and usually have safe food. One of my favorite eateries was a Chinese restaurant in Sao Paulo, Brazil where they served a terrific spaghetti. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rich said: snip > Finally: > > Keep in mind that SMTP (which is the protocol that moves mail around) > is *designed* to be "best effort" and no better. It performs incredibly > well despite that, and despite the fact that mail servers are under > 24x7 assault by a LOT of attackers, some of whom are very clueful, > and some of whom have a lot of resources to throw at them. So my > advice is that we should all be very cautious about pointing fingers > at anybody about any non-delivery/delayed delivery of email messages. > A lot of the time, the explanation is benign. > > ---Rsk A few of us seem to have shot rapid-fire from the hips on this subject prior to: analyzing or digging for avaliable data, asking the Paddlewise host objectively, and even seem to have invoked the preponderance of something stinky and-or conspiratorial. And here I thought Paddlewise members being good sea-savvy kayakers were supposed to be cautious, intelligent, and forward thinkers. Then again, maybe the posters were thinking _too_ much. :-) Anyway, my kindest regards to Mum, Dad and Bob M. Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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