I finally got out again in my used Nordkapp I picked up last year to replace my similar vintage 100 pound Nordkapp that I decommissioned and cut up, the used Nordkapp being bough after being frustrated with a stitch and glue by Doug Alderson that while a good price and a great gear carrier, didn't do a thing for me for daytripping. I did have a nice calm-water paddled with a friend - but I was really out of it having been working 13 hour days for almost a year now, and so forgot by harbour rules and crossed with my buddy too early and got chased down by the Harbour Patrol, complete with flashing blue lights. Of course, anything less than adventurous or exciting just wouldn't be a Doug Lloyd paddle according to my friend from work who dared paddle with me. Story at (warning: some religious content) http://www.westcoastpaddler.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=3058. I did my best to enjoy my new-to-me Nordkapp and a sultry paddling evening. Normally, evening paddles this time of year are solo out at Race Rocks in the huffy-jerky tumultuousness of corner winds and tide action, but I'm purposely trying to mellow out a bit. It's frustrating. While my buddy loved just getting out and soaking up the west coast ambience of easy movement and the low-production endorphins, I can't handle it anymore! I really need a kayak that can deliver fire and spice I need something maneuverable and with a bit more stability. Maybe Gerry is right. The Nordkapp LV is a fine kayak and finally available in Victoria - an immediately. I did a review on the OR site recently: http://store.oceanriver.com/store/product.php?productid=17152&cat=330&page=4 But I'm just not sure it is the one for me yet. I'd much prefer to buy built and sold in Canada. I did try the Tiderace Xcite last year and saw some of the advantages Gerry and others talk about. The Tiderace kayaks are expensive to get here. I've been dealing with Pacifica Paddlesports in Victoria trying out the new Spartan VI but it isn't really what I want. I want a low back deck, centered recessed day hatch just aft of the cockpit, good rocker, rudderless control, and a high seem line. There are other things too. I'd heard a new kayak was coming out from Boreal design Quebec, called the Vaag. I found out today it is by Maelstrom Kayak but will be made through a partnership with Borreal: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Hh9HzyPVSxw/ShAbYjIXUtI/AAAAAAAACyM/cVph1CjIT-Y/s1600-h/Vital.jpg http://www.maelstromkayak.com/cms/ Or Google Maelstrom and hit the translator. http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.carnetsdaventures.ca/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/2009_boreal_maelstrom.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.carnetsdaventures.ca/2009/05/partenariat-entre-boreal-design-et-maelstrom-kayak/&usg=__WdF50z329WC8GgpGOTqpDqdZvyI=&h=252&w=470&sz=114&hl=en&start=11&um=1&tbnid=Z--rWjexZOye6M:&tbnh=69&tbnw=129&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmaelstrom%2Bkayaks%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1W1GGLR_en%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1 Peter at Pacifica will try and get some in. I could order one in a super heavy layup too, just for me. Killer kayak. Straight up. Until then, I'll keep working and saving. No time to build a kayak right now - ailing relatives and lots of responsibility. But if I do get back out to some bad ass paddling, I know I'm going to need something that can really take care of me. I know myself. Of course, anything would be a piece of cake after what I've done with a tender Nordy for over almost 30 years.... Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, 10 Jun 2009 21:41:44 -0700, "Doug Lloyd" <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> said: > I finally got out again in my used Nordkapp I picked up last year to > replace A fair number of people missed this posting because their company/mail server determined it was sp am. If you want a copy of the posting let me know, and supply an alternate email address... Kirk paddlewise admin. -- Kirk Olsen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug, I had never heard of the Maelstrom/Vaag but it looks very interesting, perhaps more rocker than the Tiderace, and a half inch wider. In contrast to the Nordkapp LV, both the Tiderace and the Maelstrom have a bit of chine and, no doubt, a bit more stability. To my thinking this can only be an advantage; a bit more relaxing and a bit better carving. At least for normal stuff. Which is better for a wild adventure I do not feel qualified to say. I happen to have paddled yesterday with a guy in a new Nordkapp LV and it was striking how much rocker there is in that boat. He was about 160 lbs and the boat was empty, but it seemed that both ends were well out of the water most of the time. (We were on the ocean in maybe 3 ft swell and light chop.) For selfish reasons I would like to see you get one of these vessels because I hope that you would come to prefer their easier handling attributes, especially in rough waters, and so validate my own preferences. Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jerry, Your reply is below that and my initial post is below that. A paddler/instructor/indusrty insider I know can't wait for the Maelstrom to make it out to the west coast. With the current selection of kayaks to choose from including the North Shore models, the now better made Finnish Tidrace models and the infinitely customizable Sterling Illusion, plus even a me-modified Nordkapp LV, et al, I have a good selection or at least potential. I need to get some of these kayaks in the water and evaluate. Now that I'm distancing myself from my old Nordkapp I'll have a better objective perspective on overall performance related to my goals. The other night, suddenly the Nordkapp HM seemed just so old school to me - just like that. For the ultimate in wild adventure though, the one that gets me home means I can have another wild adventure the next day too. At 50 plus, ones thinks about that more. I do love the LV so far - but a lot of boat out of the water and for what gains? Not sure. Cheers, Doug > Doug, > I had never heard of the Maelstrom/Vaag but it looks very interesting, > perhaps more rocker than the Tiderace, and a half inch wider. In contrast > to the Nordkapp LV, both the Tiderace and the Maelstrom have a bit of > chine and, no doubt, a bit more stability. To my thinking this can only > be an advantage; a bit more relaxing and a bit better carving. At least > for normal stuff. Which is better for a wild adventure I do not feel > qualified to say. > > I happen to have paddled yesterday with a guy in a new Nordkapp LV and it > was striking how much rocker there is in that boat. He was about 160 lbs > and the boat was empty, but it seemed that both ends were well out of the > water most of the time. (We were on the ocean in maybe 3 ft swell and > light chop.) > > For selfish reasons I would like to see you get one of these vessels > because I hope that you would come to prefer their easier handling > attributes, especially in rough waters, and so validate my own > preferences. > > Jerry I finally got out again in my used Nordkapp I picked up last year to replace my similar vintage 100 pound Nordkapp that I decommissioned and cut up, the used Nordkapp being bough after being frustrated with a stitch and glue by Doug Alderson that while a good price and a great gear carrier, didn't do a thing for me for daytripping. I did have a nice calm-water paddled with a friend - but I was really out of it having been working 13 hour days for almost a year now, and so forgot by harbour rules and crossed with my buddy too early and got chased down by the Harbour Patrol, complete with flashing blue lights. Of course, anything less than adventurous or exciting just wouldn't be a Doug Lloyd paddle according to my friend from work who dared paddle with me. Story at (warning: some religious content) http://www.westcoastpaddler.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=3058. I did my best to enjoy my new-to-me Nordkapp and a sultry paddling evening. Normally, evening paddles this time of year are solo out at Race Rocks in the huffy-jerky tumultuousness of corner winds and tide action, but I'm purposely trying to mellow out a bit. It's frustrating. While my buddy loved just getting out and soaking up the west coast ambience of easy movement and the low-production endorphins, I can't handle it anymore! I really need a kayak that can deliver fire and spice I need something maneuverable and with a bit more stability. Maybe Gerry is right. The Nordkapp LV is a fine kayak and finally available in Victoria - an immediately. I did a review on the OR site recently: http://store.oceanriver.com/store/product.php?productid=17152&cat=330&page=4 But I'm just not sure it is the one for me yet. I'd much prefer to buy built and sold in Canada. I did try the Tiderace Xcite last year and saw some of the advantages Gerry and others talk about. The Tiderace kayaks are expensive to get here. I've been dealing with Pacifica Paddlesports in Victoria trying out the new Spartan VI but it isn't really what I want. I want a low back deck, centered recessed day hatch just aft of the cockpit, good rocker, rudderless control, and a high seem line. There are other things too. I'd heard a new kayak was coming out from Boreal design Quebec, called the Vaag. I found out today it is by Maelstrom Kayak but will be made through a partnership with Borreal: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Hh9HzyPVSxw/ShAbYjIXUtI/AAAAAAAACyM/cVph1CjIT-Y/s1600-h/Vital.jpg http://www.maelstromkayak.com/cms/ Or Google Maelstrom and hit the translator. http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.carnetsdaventures.ca/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/2009_boreal_maelstrom.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.carnetsdaventures.ca/2009/05/partenariat-entre-boreal-design-et-maelstrom-kayak/&usg=__WdF50z329WC8GgpGOTqpDqdZvyI=&h=252&w=470&sz=114&hl=en&start=11&um=1&tbnid=Z--rWjexZOye6M:&tbnh=69&tbnw=129&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmaelstrom%2Bkayaks%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1W1GGLR_en%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1 Peter at Pacifica will try and get some in. I could order one in a super heavy layup too, just for me. Killer kayak. Straight up. Until then, I'll keep working and saving. No time to build a kayak right now - ailing relatives and lots of responsibility. But if I do get back out to some bad ass paddling, I know I'm going to need something that can really take care of me. I know myself. Of course, anything would be a piece of cake after what I've done with a tender Nordy for over almost 30 years.... Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Stable enought to drink a cup of tea while surfing i think... http://www.youtube.com/user/maelstromkayak Doug > Doug, > I had never heard of the Maelstrom/Vaag but it looks very interesting, > perhaps more rocker than the Tiderace, and a half inch wider. In contrast > to the Nordkapp LV, both the Tiderace and the Maelstrom have a bit of > chine and, no doubt, a bit more stability. To my thinking this can only > be an advantage; a bit more relaxing and a bit better carving. At least > for normal stuff. Which is better for a wild adventure I do not feel > qualified to say. > > I happen to have paddled yesterday with a guy in a new Nordkapp LV and it > was striking how much rocker there is in that boat. He was about 160 lbs > and the boat was empty, but it seemed that both ends were well out of the > water most of the time. (We were on the ocean in maybe 3 ft swell and > light chop.) > > For selfish reasons I would like to see you get one of these vessels > because I hope that you would come to prefer their easier handling > attributes, especially in rough waters, and so validate my own > preferences. > > Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 5:33 PM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > Stable enought to drink a cup of tea while surfing i think... > > http://www.youtube.com/user/maelstromkayak > > That would be exciting for about 5 minutes, maybe. But I bet the really exciting part is getting that long boat into that spot.... and then out of it again. I told Doug back-channel that there are at least two of Brian's F-1 SOF kayaks in the Victoria area. Would one of you guys please invite Doug Lloyd to paddle yours? Pretty please. :D Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig, It was you and Jjerry who have been most influencial for me over the last year. You, because you reminded me last year that a guy who has spent as much time in his Nordkapp as I have would very likely have a difficult adjustment to a different kayak. I kinda blew it by going out and buying another one; Jim was tempting me with a sleek classic a while back up for auction and I was really wondering. Jerry on the other hand is bullish for a modicum of reserve bouyany in a good sea kayak, which while is to be appreciated for sure, wasn't something I'm overly worried about. What's the worse that can happen with a tipper boat? You flip over? So. So roll back up, big deal. In actuality, the tipper kayak rolls back up easier and often once you realize your kayak is paddle-active dependent, then what does it matter? Out in rough seas, you're paddle-active anyway. Craig, you have maintained this perponderance of necessary stability as well as Jerry for a while now I think, specifically that a tender kayak while having some attributes that are possibly advantageuos for a sea kayaker, just didn't fit with a rough water play boat where some reserve stability should be appreciated. For me it comes down to different facets of the argument. I'm looking for a kayak with some speed so that may mean 17 feet or so. There are a few designs that promise speed while still behaving like a shorter playboat. Those paddlers in the know can distinguish this attribute as valid as opposed to add copy. The other issue is stability while edging. If I am to move away from a ruddered mean machine, it is a priority to have something I can maintain a good lean in or maintain exaggerated edging for a duration sufficient to clear a passage with heavy, heavy quartering seas. For rock gardens and tidal races, often in storm tossed conflageration, stable, manouverable, and tough-hulled and well-fitting are paramount. The Illusion appears to be one of the few kayaks that offer much of this as well as promise paddler-specific fit right from the layup. I will have to try one. My sources on Westcoast paddler also indicate a lot of promise for the Maelstrom line - and it's Canadian. I know if I had the time I'd be in my shop making my own kayak right now, but alas. As for a SOF, sure, nice characteristics but I'm not sure about heading out to Race Rocks in 40 knot winds with a strong tide running. Not solo, not without bulkheads and and and... I wouldn't mind an SOF in my fleet, but that might not get a thumbs up from the boss, who likes her garden space - the little she has left amongst the clutter of bikes and kayaks and gear already within the foot-print. I also do like the Mariner hulls and if I designed my own kayak, I'd really look more seriously at those hulls. There are some awesome full-on play boats out there too. Local paddlers are increasingly adding these to their quiver. I'm still looking for something that will do all that but can be taken out for a 10 day trip too - and have fun touring through the rock gardens and other hydraulics I find along the way. I'm still wanting to meet my lay-out objectives is a kayak design too if I can. That day-locker hatch is important to me. A pinched or low front deck is a must. The option of a heavy lay-up is a must. Good sized hatches are a preference. And watertight. And no, I'm not so positive about the Sea Dog units on Sterling's boats. Anyway, I've got a day off and I'm being reminded in the background about how much yardwork there is so ta ta for now. Doug > On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 5:33 PM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > >> Stable enought to drink a cup of tea while surfing i think... >> >> http://www.youtube.com/user/maelstromkayak >> >> > That would be exciting for about 5 minutes, maybe. But I bet the really > exciting part is getting that long boat into that spot.... and then out of > it again. > > I told Doug back-channel that there are at least two of Brian's F-1 SOF > kayaks in the Victoria area. Would one of you guys please invite Doug > Lloyd > to paddle yours? Pretty please. :D > > Craig Jungers > Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug, A few points/questions: 1) It seems unlikely that someone of long experience in a tippy Nordkapp is more likely to flip than in a slightly more stable boat. The issue is whether that small bit of chine and stability gives you slightly better feedback, and more comfort in a rough sea. Also, whether the response to leans is more precise than in the rounder hull, thus providing finer control. The Maelstrom video you sent showing fine edge control on the wave seems to indicate this. 2) I do not believe there would be any difference whatever in ease of rolling back up between these boats you are considering, as long as the fit is good. On the other hand, a cowboy re-entry might be easier in the slightly more stable boat. 3) For example, compare the Mariner II. Way more stable than the Nordkapp LV but not too stable, significantly speedier, responds accurately to leans on its chines. I would be most interested in why you might favor the NLV for a rough passage, although I would expect the NLV to be quicker for play in tide races or surf. I am not familiar with the Tiderace or Maelstrom boats, other than their web sites, but they seem in design to be somewhere between the NLV and the Mariner II. 4) Which is most important to you; efficient A to B rough condition travel, or play in tide races and surf? This may lean you toward one or another of the boats you are considering. 5) How much rocker is more rocker than one wishes? From the photos the Maelstrom seems to have significantly more rocker than the Tiderace. Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 10:28 AM, Jerry F <gfoodma_at_earthlink.net> wrote: > > 3) For example, compare the Mariner II. Way more stable than the Nordkapp > LV but not too stable, significantly speedier, responds accurately to leans > on its chines. I would be most interested in why you might favor the NLV > for a rough passage, although I would expect the NLV to be quicker for play > in tide races or surf. I am not familiar with the Tiderace or Maelstrom > boats, other than their web sites, but they seem in design to be somewhere > between the NLV and the Mariner II. I have a Mariner II and while it is certainly the fastest kayak I've ever paddled it's too directionally stable for me to consider it a "playboat". Even the Express - almost 2 feet shorter - is not what I think of as a sea kayak playboat. The Coaster, on the other hand, is most certainly a playboat. The F-1, based on a Coaster, has excellent initial and secondary stability and is reasonably stable directionally (especially compared to a w/w boat).. Doug's worry that it wouldn't be "fast enough" depends on what he means as fast enough. It's certainly not as fast as the Mariner II but over a 2 mile paddle it is only about 1 mph slower (on average) than an M-II on a workout paddle basis (but including a paddle through a shallow zone). That is: 4 mph instead of 5mph.I am pretty sure I could paddle an M-II at 3mph using just my hands. :P That's why I'd like Doug to try an F-1. With Doug's abilities as a woodworker and craftsman he can build one himself using one of the boats as models and save himself beaucoup bucks. Plus he can put his daughters into one and know they'll have a nice safe paddle. I know this because Hailey, who just turned 8 and is sitting next to me trying to annoy me as I type this, prefers the F-1 (aand thought the Coaster was her boat). Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig, It seems to me that a typical day paddle might be 10 to 20 miles, not 2, and in windy rough conditions, so that the 'only' 1 mph speed difference you cite seems huge to me. That the Mariner II is directionally stable is also a very big advantage for this type of travel, over even the Mariner Express. I can't speak to the Tiderace or Maelstrom kayaks. Clearly if one just wants to play in conditions, then the Coaster, or Romany, or one of the new kayaks cited, is a better choice. If one wants to cover distance, then the Mariner II, although the new Tiderace Xplore at 18' by 21" might be as fast as the Mariner II. My original point, however, remains that for either A to B travel, or for play, in rough conditions there is no advantage to the tippiness of the Nordkapp type hull. The Nordkapp hull might have advantages in other respects, but not with regard to its absence of reserve stability. The Tiderace designer states on his web site that he tried to incorporate a bit of stability in his hull precisely to improve rough water handling, as I believe he should. On the other hand, I don't believe the Nordkapp designer considers that bit of stability to be of any importance whatever. (Both boats are 21" in beam.) Jerry > I have a Mariner II and while it is certainly the fastest kayak I've ever > paddled it's too directionally stable for me to consider it a "playboat". > Even the Express - almost 2 feet shorter - is not what I think of as a sea > kayak playboat. The Coaster, on the other hand, is most certainly a > playboat. The F-1, based on a Coaster, has excellent initial and secondary > stability and is reasonably stable directionally (especially compared to a > w/w boat).. Doug's worry that it wouldn't be "fast enough" depends on what > he means as fast enough. It's certainly not as fast as the Mariner II but > over a 2 mile paddle it is only about 1 mph slower (on average) than an > M-II > on a workout paddle basis (but including a paddle through a shallow zone). > That is: 4 mph instead of 5mph.I am pretty sure I could paddle an M-II at > 3mph using just my hands. :P *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 7:10 PM, Jerry F <gfoodma_at_earthlink.net> wrote: > > It seems to me that a typical day paddle might be 10 to 20 miles, not 2, > and in windy rough conditions, so that the 'only' 1 mph speed difference you > cite seems huge to me. I wouldn't paddle the F-1 (or a Coaster) 10 or 20 miles to a rock garden or tidal stream to play; I'd be far more likely to paddle 2 or 3 miles. > That the Mariner II is directionally stable is also a very big advantage > for this type of travel, over even the Mariner Express. But when you get there you are in a kayak that isn't suitable as a playboat (in my opinion, at least). > Clearly if one just wants to play in conditions, then the Coaster, or > Romany, or one of the new kayaks cited, is a better choice. If one wants > to cover distance, then the Mariner II, although the new Tiderace Xplore at > 18' by 21" might be as fast as the Mariner II. If I want to cover distance I fire up the muthah-ship and set off with the kayaks loaded on top. :P > > My original point, however, remains that for either A to B travel, or for > play, in rough conditions there is no advantage to the tippiness of the > Nordkapp type hull. I've thought this for years. But the problem seems to be that some people actually like the lack of initial stability or twitchiness. To me it's like choosing a bucking horse to run a steeplechase but others seem to revel in having a boat that practically no one else can paddle. (There are people who choose horses for much the same reason, actually.) If you offered a white water paddler a kayak with the stability of a Nordkapp (s)he would likely laugh in your face. If Doug had done the majority of his paddling in a Coaster and not a Nordy perhaps he wouldn't have suffered so much brain dam..... er, cold water immersion. :P Craig Jungers Ducking for cover in Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jerry, I appreciate your perspective on "feedback." I think that may well sumarize what I'm missing in a kayak at the moment. I've always equated responsiveness with a degree of tippiness, simply because the kayak responds to hip movement so much faster. However my experience with the Nordkapp HS and HM is that there isn't a lot of responsiveness to carving turns using body language and strokes, as it were. I like the Mariner II. It does as you suggest. It just felt like too much boat underfoot for me - not sure why. I know the Foster Legend does much the same but feels very tender. I wonder why Nigel attributed this kayak with the degree of tenderness he did. Faster point A to B? I think the cross section of the type of performace playboat you suggest is a boxy cross section. That's a departure for me and something I would have to acclimatize too. Also, while a lot of these kayaks do well in tide races and rock gardens, I like a kayak that is fun in high wind and waves (that wildness factor). From what I've read, the Illusion is one of the few kayak designs promising performance in all the other criteria, as well as high wind. We shall see what direction I will go. Nick has some interesting hull designs too one could spring board off from if I build my own kayak in frustration. How much rocker I'd want is something that is really one big compromise. So, my thoughts are a bit random right now, however it is time for a change for me. Doug Lloyd > Doug, > A few points/questions: > 1) It seems unlikely that someone of long experience in a tippy Nordkapp > is more likely to flip than in a slightly more stable boat. The issue is > whether that small bit of chine and stability gives you slightly better > feedback, and more comfort in a rough sea. Also, whether the response to > leans is more precise than in the rounder hull, thus providing finer > control. The Maelstrom video you sent showing fine edge control on the > wave seems to indicate this. > > 2) I do not believe there would be any difference whatever in ease of > rolling back up between these boats you are considering, as long as the > fit is good. On the other hand, a cowboy re-entry might be easier in the > slightly more stable boat. > > 3) For example, compare the Mariner II. Way more stable than the Nordkapp > LV but not too stable, significantly speedier, responds accurately to > leans on its chines. I would be most interested in why you might favor > the NLV for a rough passage, although I would expect the NLV to be quicker > for play in tide races or surf. I am not familiar with the Tiderace or > Maelstrom boats, other than their web sites, but they seem in design to be > somewhere between the NLV and the Mariner II. > > 4) Which is most important to you; efficient A to B rough condition > travel, or play in tide races and surf? This may lean you toward one or > another of the boats you are considering. > > 5) How much rocker is more rocker than one wishes? From the photos the > Maelstrom seems to have significantly more rocker than the Tiderace. > > Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 11:33 PM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > I like the Mariner II. It does as you suggest. It just felt like too much > boat underfoot for me - not sure why. > I also think the M-II feels like too much boat... which it shouldn't as it's only 21.5 inches wide. And I think that the answer is that it depends on what you are doing. The M-II is fast, has just the right feeling of stability, and is comfortable but it's not "nimble". If you're used to that feeling of nimbleness in a boat then you will think the M-II feels long. But if you use the boat as a long-distance fast cruising kayak it will feel pretty much spot on. I think that the M-II would be unsuitable for what Doug has always used a kayak for; unless he fits it with a deep rudder (I can see Matt Broze grimacing now). If you want a boat that will keep you at the front of the pack even though you are old and out of shape but will still let you stop and eat lunch then the Mariner II is the boat for you. :P Pam is beginning to talk about selling all her boats, including her two Mariners (the Express and the Sprite) and getting an Illusion. She thinks that she'll know a lot more after her high-wind class with Kayak Academy. I'm starting to think that renting an Illusion for a day of paddling might be a good idea for anyone looking for a new boat. Andrew Elizaga, otherwise known as the Dash Point Pirate, has a video of his friend, Ricardo, paddling the Illusion on his blog: http://dashpointpirate.typepad.com/ (I might add that if you haven't read Andrew's blog before you're in for a treat. It's one of my favorites.) Craig Jungers Moses Lake, Wa www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 11:33 PM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > > I appreciate your perspective on "feedback." I think that may well sumarize > what I'm missing in a kayak at the moment. I've always equated > responsiveness with a degree of tippiness, simply because the kayak responds > to hip movement so much faster. This, finally, explains everything. I've always felt that I didn't understand when talking to many kayakers (especially Brit boat kayakers) about responsiveness. Now I realize why. I have always looked at responsiveness like a sports car; quick to turn and move in another direction. Doug just defined responsiveness in an entirely different way. > However my experience with the Nordkapp HS and HM is that there isn't a lot > of responsiveness to carving turns using body language and strokes, as it > were. Bingo (as they say in the senior centers)!!! If you feel that instantaneous hip response is what you like then you will gravitate to Brit boats. But if you like having the boat respond by carving a turn using a combination of body language and strokes then you'll be disappointed with a Brit boat and gravitate towards Mariners or even Pygmy boats. I wonder how many of us understood these two different definitions of "responsive". Just goes to show ya. Thanks, Doug and Jerry. :) Craig Jungers Moss Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug, If you compare the NF Legend to the Nordkapp, both are very tippy (too tippy for me), but you have a 'boxy' vs a round cross section. So chines do not necessarily provide either reserve stability or feedback. Have you considered the Necky Chatham 18, only 20" in beam, with chines? It feels quite stable and progressive when leaning, but I do not recall how responsive it is to carving. It will certainly be fast. I also wonder about the Nigel Foster designs. When you lean they do not feel progressive, preferring to be on one chine or the other. What is the point? So I am not suggesting a 'boxy' cross section, rather a bit of the right kind of chine, whatever that means. Jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Lloyd" <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> To: "Jerry F" <gfoodma_at_earthlink.net>; "Craig Jungers" <crjungers_at_gmail.com> Cc: "paddlewise" <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 11:33 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Feed the Need > Jerry, > I appreciate your perspective on "feedback." I think that may well > sumarize what I'm missing in a kayak at the moment. I've always equated > responsiveness with a degree of tippiness, simply because the kayak > responds to hip movement so much faster. However my experience with the > Nordkapp HS and HM is that there isn't a lot of responsiveness to carving > turns using body language and strokes, as it were. I like the Mariner II. > It does as you suggest. It just felt like too much boat underfoot for me - > not sure why. I know the Foster Legend does much the same but feels very > tender. I wonder why Nigel attributed this kayak with the degree of > tenderness he did. Faster point A to B? > > I think the cross section of the type of performace playboat you suggest > is a boxy cross section. That's a departure for me and something I would > have to acclimatize too. Also, while a lot of these kayaks do well in tide > races and rock gardens, I like a kayak that is fun in high wind and waves > (that wildness factor). From what I've read, the Illusion is one of the > few kayak designs promising performance in all the other criteria, as well > as high wind. > > We shall see what direction I will go. Nick has some interesting hull > designs too one could spring board off from if I build my own kayak in > frustration. How much rocker I'd want is something that is really one big > compromise. So, my thoughts are a bit random right now, however it is time > for a change for me. > > Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jerry F said: If you compare the NF Legend to the Nordkapp, both are very tippy (too tippy for me), but you have a 'boxy' vs a round cross section. So chines do not necessarily provide either reserve stability or feedback Jerry & Doug, I've been paddling a NF Shadow for the last 4 years as my main boat. My other touring boat is a P&H Capella and prior to that it was a Gulfstream. I think I have plenty of experience paddling both a "boxy" hard chined boat and a "round hulled" British design. Although the Shadow (same hull but 1" wider than the NF Legend), is a "tippier" boat for someone not used to it, it is only the primary stability that is so light. Once you edge the boat onto one of the chines, it will sit there all day. The softer chined boats like the Capella and the Gulfstream, do not have that solid secondary stability that the chine provides. It just takes a while to get used to a boat that will edge by just thinking of edging a boat. Steve Holtzman Southern California *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jerry, Right you are. I currently have a S&G with "V'ed" hull with chines and I don't get the feedback I want, nor do I appreciate the tendency for it to "flop" over starboard or port depending on how the hull feels that day. :-) Admittedly, the kayak was designed to carry a heavy load. I'm not sure where some of these kayaks get their following, but then look at me and my Nordkapp for so many years. Certainly some designs out there do certain things really well but may have objective faults (or annoyances) in others. As for an earlier question why I though the NLV might be a good choice for rough passages, I was thinking of the ability to surf waves and counter broaches which the NLV in touted as being abler to do. My problem is I'm increasingly drawn to rough tidal passages which mix with high winds and a somewhat boxy section not only has feedback but has some reserve stability too for edging. I do appreciate your correspondence with me. All points are considered. I do know Nigel can paddle circles around even the best paddlers in their Valley kayaks, but is it the boat or the paddler? Not sure which is my problem. :-) Doug > Doug, > If you compare the NF Legend to the Nordkapp, both are very tippy (too > tippy for me), but you have a 'boxy' vs a round cross section. So chines > do not necessarily provide either reserve stability or feedback. Have you > considered the Necky Chatham 18, only 20" in beam, with chines? It feels > quite stable and progressive when leaning, but I do not recall how > responsive it is to carving. It will certainly be fast. > > I also wonder about the Nigel Foster designs. When you lean they do not > feel progressive, preferring to be on one chine or the other. What is the > point? > > So I am not suggesting a 'boxy' cross section, rather a bit of the right > kind of chine, whatever that means. > > Jerry > > > >> Jerry, >> I appreciate your perspective on "feedback." I think that may well >> sumarize what I'm missing in a kayak at the moment. I've always equated >> responsiveness with a degree of tippiness, simply because the kayak >> responds to hip movement so much faster. However my experience with the >> Nordkapp HS and HM is that there isn't a lot of responsiveness to carving >> turns using body language and strokes, as it were. I like the Mariner II. >> It does as you suggest. It just felt like too much boat underfoot for >> me - not sure why. I know the Foster Legend does much the same but feels >> very tender. I wonder why Nigel attributed this kayak with the degree of >> tenderness he did. Faster point A to B? >> >> I think the cross section of the type of performace playboat you suggest >> is a boxy cross section. That's a departure for me and something I would >> have to acclimatize too. Also, while a lot of these kayaks do well in >> tide races and rock gardens, I like a kayak that is fun in high wind and >> waves (that wildness factor). From what I've read, the Illusion is one of >> the few kayak designs promising performance in all the other criteria, as >> well as high wind. >> >> We shall see what direction I will go. Nick has some interesting hull >> designs too one could spring board off from if I build my own kayak in >> frustration. How much rocker I'd want is something that is really one big >> compromise. So, my thoughts are a bit random right now, however it is >> time for a change for me. >> >> Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve, Although I agree about what happens once you are on the edge of a NF boat, that misses the point a bit. What seems desireable to me is to get gradually progressive feedback as you lean from center, as well as gradually progressive carving. It seems preferable to me to be able to easily and controllably regulate the degree of edging and the resultant degree of turning. The Mariner II, for example, has this excellent characteristic, as do other boats. Perhaps one can develop this ability with the Shadow, but I don't see what advantage the light primary has. Jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Holtzman" <sh_at_actglobal.net> To: "'Jerry F'" <gfoodma_at_earthlink.net>; "'paddlewise'" <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; "'Doug Lloyd'" <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 5:40 PM Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Feed the Need > Jerry F said: > If you compare the NF Legend to the Nordkapp, both are very tippy (too > tippy > > for me), but you have a 'boxy' vs a round cross section. So chines do not > necessarily provide either reserve stability or feedback > > Jerry & Doug, > > I've been paddling a NF Shadow for the last 4 years as my main boat. My > other touring boat is a P&H Capella and prior to that it was a Gulfstream. > I > think I have plenty of experience paddling both a "boxy" hard chined boat > and a "round hulled" British design. > > Although the Shadow (same hull but 1" wider than the NF Legend), is a > "tippier" boat for someone not used to it, it is only the primary > stability > that is so light. Once you edge the boat onto one of the chines, it will > sit > there all day. > > The softer chined boats like the Capella and the Gulfstream, do not have > that solid secondary stability that the chine provides. It just takes a > while to get used to a boat that will edge by just thinking of edging a > boat. > > Steve Holtzman > Southern California *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig, Maybe a rudder on a Mariner is the ultimate kayak. Think. A kayak that doesn't need a rudder. As seas get worse and distances are long, a rudder is a nice addition. Best of both worlds - just not a world in Matt's universe. :-) Here's something new too from Boreal - the Epsilon series. Interesting how manufacturers are responding to size requirements. http://www.borealdesign.com/_en/mc/nouveautes.php As for the Illusion, I'd be mighty glad if Pam could post some "feedback" on her observations of the class and specifically the boat. Doug > On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 11:33 PM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > >> I like the Mariner II. It does as you suggest. It just felt like too much >> boat underfoot for me - not sure why. >> > > I also think the M-II feels like too much boat... which it shouldn't as > it's > only 21.5 inches wide. And I think that the answer is that it depends on > what you are doing. The M-II is fast, has just the right feeling of > stability, and is comfortable but it's not "nimble". If you're used to > that > feeling of nimbleness in a boat then you will think the M-II feels long. > But > if you use the boat as a long-distance fast cruising kayak it will feel > pretty much spot on. I think that the M-II would be unsuitable for what > Doug > has always used a kayak for; unless he fits it with a deep rudder (I can > see > Matt Broze grimacing now). > > If you want a boat that will keep you at the front of the pack even though > you are old and out of shape but will still let you stop and eat lunch > then > the Mariner II is the boat for you. :P > > Pam is beginning to talk about selling all her boats, including her two > Mariners (the Express and the Sprite) and getting an Illusion. She thinks > that she'll know a lot more after her high-wind class with Kayak Academy. > I'm starting to think that renting an Illusion for a day of paddling might > be a good idea for anyone looking for a new boat. > > Andrew Elizaga, otherwise known as the Dash Point Pirate, has a video of > his > friend, Ricardo, paddling the Illusion on his blog: > http://dashpointpirate.typepad.com/ > > (I might add that if you haven't read Andrew's blog before you're in for a > treat. It's one of my favorites.) > > Craig Jungers > Moses Lake, Wa > www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve Holtzman wrote: >>>>.The softer chined boats like the Capella and the Gulfstream, do not have that solid secondary stability that the chine provides. It just takes a while to get used to a boat that will edge by just thinking of edging a boat.<<<<< A chine provides very little static stability. Given the same width a chine boat may even be tippier because the flatter area above the chine means the kayak isn't as wide near the waterline. Solid secondary stability is usually the result of the flair of the hull between the chines and the gunnels and to some extent the height of the gunnels. An initially unstable kayak makes the stability increase the flair provides as the kayak is leaned all that more obvious. Why the Shadow feels so much more comfortable than the Legend is the extra inch or so of width at the gunnels (due to the added flair of the hull from the chines to achieve that extra width). When you have good secondary stability you soon learn not to worry much about the lack of initial stability. You learn to trust that the kayak will pick up more stability as it leans more and that the kayak will pretty take care of itself if you keep your body above it. I like a lot of the handling characteristics of Nigel Foster's kayaks but the Shadow is my favorite. What the hard chines do for his kayaks is to give them an edge (the chine) in the water when you are upright and quartering accross the face of a following wave you are surfing on. This helps prevent the skid into a broach that is common in that condition with wider , more rounded and flatter bottomed kayaks. In steep side waves a hard chine also minimizes the side to side motion of the kayak (out from under you first one way and then the other) caused by sliding some down the wave faces. The hard chine kayak stays under you better in steep waves without you having to think about it. Also hard chines provide a curved keel when you lean the kayak and unless there is too much keel this makes for a kayak that carves a precise turn rather than just skids the stern around the turn. The Shadow excels at carving turns and is a lot sportier than most other British sea kayaks. I know Doug cut much of the stern keel/skeg off of his Nordkapp HM but to my mind it could hardly be considered a playboat because it wasn't very manueaverable and got especially locked into a long slow broach in following seas. Even the HS model Nordkapp was too hard to turn for wave surfing for my tastes. The Shadow seemed to have a good balance between tracking and turning. It tracked extremely well in difficult wave and wind conditions but still retained a sportiness that helped improve ones control and allowed quick adjustments to help get back on course when the forces that be are making directional control difficult. Putting a rudder on a Mariner. Nearly as many folks have taken them off later as have had them put on in the first place. If you get footpedals that will stay solid under the balls of your feet so you don't lose leg power in your stroke, a rudder blade that can be stored so it doesn't add windage to your stern (creating the weathercocking it was needed to compensate for--by adding drag I may add), and a rudder and cables that also stay out of the way so it doesn't cut you up if you tangle with it on land or sea, then I might start to think the few advantages a rudder provides might start to balance out all the disadvantages they add to a kayak. At least to a kayak that has little need for a rudder to control weathercocking and broaching in the first place. Speaking of broaching, while you're at it can you mount the rudder further forward under the hull like an adjustable skeg so it will stay in the water when your stern is hanging in the air as you are starting to surf on a wave and the kayak is at greatest risk of broaching (rather than just waving around in the air at that critical time). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt, The Legend is still a nice open water cruiser with the speed it can deliver. On a bit of a different note, what gives a kayak good glide? Some boats I've had great expectations for are dissapointing when I paddle them; they have what appears to be good speed and efficiecy energy expenditure at first, but whenever you stop paddling the kayak comes to a quick stop.Seems it is more with kayaks that carry their width further forward that the ones with fatter sterns. Doug Lloyd > Steve Holtzman wrote: >>>>>.The softer chined boats like the Capella and the Gulfstream, do not >>>>>have > that solid secondary stability that the chine provides. It just takes a > while to get used to a boat that will edge by just thinking of edging a > boat.<<<<< > > A chine provides very little static stability. Given the same width a > chine > boat may even be tippier because the flatter area above the chine means > the > kayak isn't as wide near the waterline. Solid secondary stability is > usually > the result of the flair of the hull between the chines and the gunnels and > to > some extent the height of the gunnels. An initially unstable kayak makes > the > stability increase the flair provides as the kayak is leaned all that more > obvious. Why the Shadow feels so much more comfortable than the Legend is > the > extra inch or so of width at the gunnels (due to the added flair of the > hull > from the chines to achieve that extra width). When you have good secondary > stability you soon learn not to worry much about the lack of initial > stability. You learn to trust that the kayak will pick up more stability > as it > leans more and that the kayak will pretty take care of itself if you keep > your > body above it. > > I like a lot of the handling characteristics of Nigel Foster's kayaks but > the > Shadow is my favorite. What the hard chines do for his kayaks is to give > them > an edge (the chine) in the water when you are upright and quartering > accross > the face of a following wave you are surfing on. This helps prevent the > skid > into a broach that is common in that condition with wider , more rounded > and > flatter bottomed kayaks. In steep side waves a hard chine also minimizes > the > side to side motion of the kayak (out from under you first one way and > then > the other) caused by sliding some down the wave faces. The hard chine > kayak > stays under you better in steep waves without you having to think about > it. > Also hard chines provide a curved keel when you lean the kayak and unless > there is too much keel this makes for a kayak that carves a precise turn > rather than just skids the stern around the turn. The Shadow excels at > carving > turns and is a lot sportier than most other British sea kayaks. I know > Doug > cut much of the stern keel/skeg off of his Nordkapp HM but to my mind it > could > hardly be considered a playboat because it wasn't very manueaverable and > got > especially locked into a long slow broach in following seas. Even the HS > model > Nordkapp was too hard to turn for wave surfing for my tastes. The Shadow > seemed to have a good balance between tracking and turning. It tracked > extremely well in difficult wave and wind conditions but still retained a > sportiness that helped improve ones control and allowed quick adjustments > to > help get back on course when the forces that be are making directional > control > difficult. > > Putting a rudder on a Mariner. Nearly as many folks have taken them off > later > as have had them put on in the first place. If you get footpedals that > will > stay solid under the balls of your feet so you don't lose leg power in > your > stroke, a rudder blade that can be stored so it doesn't add windage to > your > stern (creating the weathercocking it was needed to compensate for--by > adding > drag I may add), and a rudder and cables that also stay out of the way so > it > doesn't cut you up if you tangle with it on land or sea, then I might > start to > think the few advantages a rudder provides might start to balance out all > the > disadvantages they add to a kayak. At least to a kayak that has little > need > for a rudder to control weathercocking and broaching in the first place. > Speaking of broaching, while you're at it can you mount the rudder further > forward under the hull like an adjustable skeg so it will stay in the > water > when your stern is hanging in the air as you are starting to surf on a > wave > and the kayak is at greatest risk of broaching (rather than just waving > around > in the air at that critical time). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I wrote you a long detailed answer and when I was spell checking it this dog I have named "Windows Vista" ate it suddenly. Vista does this to me often. It disappeared in one quick gulp. If I run a cross it somewhere rummaging around in the bowels of this dog I'll send it to you. Now you're going to have to settle for the short answer. Just two days ago Vista ate a spreadsheet I had worked on for several hours. It seems Vista has been trained to update at 3AM whenever she was on watch then and shut down all bodily functions for a few seconds and then being resurrected after making my spreadsheet suddenly invisible right before my very eyes. It was a miracle I tell you, I didn't have to give Vista even one command to help her know what to do. Once into the rapture there was no stopping her even though my spreadsheet had beecome "Saved" only a split second before. Truly a miracle. Glide is not important and is a poor way of discovering anything but how much a kayak weighs and how efficient it is at low speeds (and therefore less efficient at higher speeds than it could be). Sectional density is the main criteria for gliding farther. How much mass is pushing through how small a cross sectional area of water. So heavier means not only more drag but also more glide. Fishform hulls glide a bit better but are also harder work at higher speeds than swede-form. Shorter doesn't glide as well but has less drag from friction (up to its hull speed anyhow). You will be fooling yourself using glide as a criteria for selecting a kayak. Your Nordkapp would glide so far because it was fine ended, long, fish-form (stiffer tracking), had a low wetted surface (narrower) for its waterline length, but mostly because it weighed a heck of a lot. Glide is about the only thing that got better with age (as your kayak gained weight over the years). > From: douglloyd_at_shaw.ca > To: marinerkayaks_at_msn.com; paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Feed the Need > Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 21:40:45 -0700 > > Matt, > The Legend is still a nice open water cruiser with the speed it can deliver. > > On a bit of a different note, what gives a kayak good glide? Some boats I've > had great expectations for are dissapointing when I paddle them; they have > what appears to be good speed and efficiecy energy expenditure at first, but > whenever you stop paddling the kayak comes to a quick stop.Seems it is more > with kayaks that carry their width further forward that the ones with fatter > sterns. > > Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thanks Matt - sorry you went to so much work and could not share it with us - you offer truly intelligent discussion and it is appreciated. Yes, I can't find anything with the glide of my former heavy Nordkapp. My current Nordkapp is almost identical in vintage but half the weight and just feels a bit sluggish though it top ends better in a sprint. A lot of the kayaks I've tried lately just seem to reach a wall. The Norkapps in general are not necessarily a fast kayak by design but I feel I can always push them a bit more without that steep wall. The Nordkapp LV even seems slippy through the water and fast, if tender. I got to admit I'm having a hard time finding a kayak that does everything I want it to. I spoke with a top BC paddler today who was back east recently and tried the Maelstrom kayaks I'd benn talking about and indicated I might be disappointed. He actually was completely surprised by the P&H Cetus recently, but I'm skeptical of something with potential for broaching if I'm goint to go to a rudderless kayak. So, a couple of issues: I need fast and slippery and responsive to edging and lean. Doug Lloyd I wrote you a long detailed answer and when I was spell checking it this dog I have named "Windows Vista" ate it suddenly. Vista does this to me often. It disappeared in one quick gulp. If I run a cross it somewhere rummaging around in the bowels of this dog I'll send it to you. Now you're going to have to settle for the short answer. Just two days ago Vista ate a spreadsheet I had worked on for several hours. It seems Vista has been trained to update at 3AM whenever she was on watch then and shut down all bodily functions for a few seconds and then being resurrected after making my spreadsheet suddenly invisible right before my very eyes. It was a miracle I tell you, I didn't have to give Vista even one command to help her know what to do. Once into the rapture there was no stopping her even though my spreadsheet had beecome "Saved" only a split second before. Truly a miracle. Glide is not important and is a poor way of discovering anything but how much a kayak weighs and how efficient it is at low speeds (and therefore less efficient at higher speeds than it could be). Sectional density is the main criteria for gliding farther. How much mass is pushing through how small a cross sectional area of water. So heavier means not only more drag but also more glide. Fishform hulls glide a bit better but are also harder work at higher speeds than swede-form. Shorter doesn't glide as well but has less drag from friction (up to its hull speed anyhow). You will be fooling yourself using glide as a criteria for selecting a kayak. Your Nordkapp would glide so far because it was fine ended, long, fish-form (stiffer tracking), had a low wetted surface (narrower) for its waterline length, but mostly because it weighed a heck of a lot. Glide is about the only thing that got better with age (as your kayak gained weight over the years). > > Matt, > The Legend is still a nice open water cruiser with the speed it can deliver. > > On a bit of a different note, what gives a kayak good glide? Some boats I've > had great expectations for are dissapointing when I paddle them; they have > what appears to be good speed and efficiecy energy expenditure at first, but > whenever you stop paddling the kayak comes to a quick stop.Seems it is more > with kayaks that carry their width further forward that the ones with fatter > sterns. > > Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I bought a Necky Arluk II early in my paddling career. At the time it was considered to be a pretty cutting edge design in a sea kayak. I paddled that boat for fifteen years before it was stolen. To this day I compare every kayak I paddle to my trusty ol' Arluk, and they all fall short. Was the Arluk really that great of a boat? I suspect that as the years went by I learned just what the Arluk was capable of and developed my paddling style around that performance. In the end I feel that I had achieved a perfect union of boat and paddler. I believe this kind of boating nirvana is only reached by those few of us who are willing to spend a lot of time with a single boat. When I was in the market for a new boat I seriously considered looking for another Arluk, but I decided that I had been there and done that and it was time to move on and experience new challenges. I switched to a Greenland paddle for a couple of years as well. These days I will paddle just about anything that floats, it just doesn't really matter to me any more. Doug, I think I understand your quest, and I wish you well in your search. I suspect that you are in the same boat, so to speak, as I am. While I enjoy everybody's critiques of the new (and some not so new) kayaks on the market, the boat you are looking for is probably your trusty old Nordkapp. It's familiar, predictable and suits your paddling style which has probably been modeled around your Nordkapps handling characteristics. Is the Nordkapp really that great of a sea kayak? For you it probably is - for the rest of us, probably not so much. Scott So.Cal. > Yes, I can't find anything with the glide of my former heavy Nordkapp. My > current Nordkapp is almost identical in vintage but half the weight and just > feels a bit sluggish though it top ends better in a sprint. A lot of the > kayaks I've tried lately just seem to reach a wall. The Norkapps in general > are not necessarily a fast kayak by design but I feel I can always push them a > bit more without that steep wall. The Nordkapp LV even seems slippy through > the water and fast, if tender. > > I got to admit I'm having a hard time finding a kayak that does everything I > want it to. I spoke with a top BC paddler today who was back east recently and > tried the Maelstrom kayaks I'd benn talking about and indicated I might be > disappointed. He actually was completely surprised by the P&H Cetus recently, > but I'm skeptical of something with potential for broaching if I'm goint to go > to a rudderless kayak. So, a couple of issues: I need fast and slippery and > responsive to edging and lean. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This has certainly become an interesting thread. I liked Scott's response re:his experiences with the Arluk II (I think Pam has an Arluk II for sale in the Seattle area) and that union of man and boat that sure seems to describe Doug's experiences with his old Nordy. I'll never get to that because I have gone about this differently and chosen to have kayaks that fill more specific needs (wants? desires? lusts?). For Scott and Doug I suspect the "you can't go home again" syndrome will kick in. Too many variables have changed to be able to re-solve that old equation. Plus maybe a little of the, "no girl can compare to my first girlfriend in high school" syndrome. LOL On my 4 hour drive back to Moses Lake from Oak Harbor I was thinking that Doug's total mass with his new Nordy must be about the same as his total mass with the old Nordy; just that the partner with the weight gain is not the kayak any more. (grin) Not that I have any room to criticize in that regard, mind you. At any rate a new, lighter, Nordy with a new, heavier, Doug should glide about the same if it's all about the mass and ignoring minor differences between kayak shapes. I still think adding a rudder to some boats is perfectly reasonable and acceptable. I'd never consider one on a Coaster or Express but would for a Mariner II, for instance. Especially with the new gas-pedal systems. But I'd never think of taking a Mariner II into a rock garden either. (Yikes!) My own attitude stems from my conviction that there is no one single perfect kayak unless you only do one thing. So, with the popularity of craigslist, one can now acquire enough kayaks to satisfy every need from creekboating to fishing without breaking the bank (or a marriage). Although I admit that the marriage might get bent some. Doug will be able to come down into the USA in a while so maybe we should have a mini-seminar where we gather all our boats and let him try them. I vote for Bowman Bay with easy access to the currents in Deception Pass. I'll bring my F-1 and an Express with sliding seat. Pam can bring her Ice Kapp and (maybe) an Illusion. We can call it the Doug Lloyd Memor... no, wait... that's a bit premature. Um... the Doug Lloyd Invitational is better. :P Craig Jungers Maybe I've Just Driven Too Long Today in Moses Lake, WA www.nwkyakaing.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug wrote: >I'm skeptical of something with potential for broaching if I'm goint to go > to a rudderless kayak. So, a couple of issues: I need fast and slippery > and > responsive to edging and lean. Doug, Why did you say you were going to rudderless? I always thought you were wise in favoring a rudder for rough A to B travel. It can save much energy over the long haul. Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Well, if I can find one that doesn't need a rudder, I can always add one when I find it does. :-) I had hoped the Kari-tek understern rudder would get more reviews. I can hardly find any reviews for it. I figured some might show up from Australian paddlers who tend to accept rudders as the norm. Then, there was a short blurb recently: "my experience with Kari-tek skeg-rudder system was disappointing. As skeg it worked OK As rudder was rather weak, in a sense that it gave very little directional correction to the kayak. The hydraulic parts are crude (chunky and sharp) and activation was not as good as I was hoping for. Not sold on the Kari-tek, not yet..." http://www.westcoastpaddler.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=1929 Doug LLoyd > Doug wrote: >>I'm skeptical of something with potential for broaching if I'm goint to go >> to a rudderless kayak. So, a couple of issues: I need fast and slippery >> and >> responsive to edging and lean. > > Doug, > Why did you say you were going to rudderless? I always thought you were > wise in favoring a rudder for rough A to B travel. It can save much > energy over the long haul. > Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The news from Pam is disappointing in that George Gronseth apparently did not get the word that he was to bring an Illusion for her to paddle in the wind course; and so he didn't. And so Pam had to paddle an Ice Kap for the entire two day course. She says she learned a lot. Especially about bracing. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug wrote: > Well, if I can find one that doesn't need a rudder, I can always add one > when I find it does. :-) I have long objected to the use of the word 'need' in this context. Many boats can be readily managed in most conditions without a rudder, so do not 'need' one. Nevertheless, a rudder will save a small but significant amount of energy in a long straight passage through windy chop. Especially if it is a modern one with a foil blade and fixed footbraces. However, not every boat is suitable for mounting a rudder; for example a boat with a large amount of stern rocker. Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Well yeah, "need" is one of those "filter trip" code words that in the context of rudders, always generates a response from you Jerry. I forgot that. :-) However, my wordology when it comes to kayaks is pretty defined in degrees of reasonable use and I retain the right to use the word need in the context that most of us understand this word being used, just as there is a lot of kayaks that seem to benefit objectively well from the inclusion of a skeg. Of course, there is the Mariner Elan. Now, that kayak hull doesn't "need" a skeg - but then, it has one built into the keel line, so in effect it does have a skeg. I can't imagine paddling a squirrelly, hull-extension skeg-less Elan, though it could be done of course. I like the Point 65 kayaks that can have a rudder installed super-sano at any point. My Nordkapp HS was an ideal candidate for a deep-draft rudder with its intrinsic maneuverability (compared to the HM) and directional control with the rudder. But yeah, Matt has a point about rudders being a hassle mechanically, safety wise and rescue inhibiting, and the white-knuckle experience when a round bilge hull lets loose into a broach when the rudder comes out astern in following seas. If my next kayak will benefit from a rudder for longer crossings (obviously, a kayak I would be earmarking for some cruising as opposed to a strictly playboat), I'd go for a full foot bar plate with articulating pedals now that I have also decided to go to an electric bilge pump as opposed to a mid-mounted bulkhead foot pump. Some of the top-rated fitness kayaks like the Marlin by KayakPro use a foot brace that spans the width of the cockpit with hinged pedal above. Doug Lloyd > Doug wrote: > >> Well, if I can find one that doesn't need a rudder, I can always add one >> when I find it does. :-) > > I have long objected to the use of the word 'need' in this context. Many > boats can be readily managed in most conditions without a rudder, so do > not 'need' one. Nevertheless, a rudder will save a small but significant > amount of energy in a long straight passage through windy chop. > Especially if it is a modern one with a foil blade and fixed footbraces. > However, not every boat is suitable for mounting a rudder; for example a > boat with a large amount of stern rocker. > > Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I appreciated Scott's words of wisdom too. Breaking the bond with my Nordkapp is taking more than two years. Who knows, I might even try a few Mariners again. There's a nice Express for sale on Westcoastpaddler. http://www.westcoastpaddler.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=3092 Though, the paddler appears to be going toward Brit boats, rather than the other way around. Mark had his Elan for sale down in Texas back awhile ago. I really wanted to try it out (I was lighter then). Now there is a certain heaviness of being. :-) If I keep eating Nachos at night I'll be in a Telkwa soon... Doug Lloyd > This has certainly become an interesting thread. I liked Scott's response > re:his experiences with the Arluk II (I think Pam has an Arluk II for sale > in the Seattle area) and that union of man and boat that sure seems to > describe Doug's experiences with his old Nordy. I'll never get to that > because I have gone about this differently and chosen to have kayaks that > fill more specific needs (wants? desires? lusts?). For Scott and Doug I > suspect the "you can't go home again" syndrome will kick in. Too many > variables have changed to be able to re-solve that old equation. > > Plus maybe a little of the, "no girl can compare to my first girlfriend in > high school" syndrome. LOL > > On my 4 hour drive back to Moses Lake from Oak Harbor I was thinking that > Doug's total mass with his new Nordy must be about the same as his total > mass with the old Nordy; just that the partner with the weight gain is not > the kayak any more. (grin) Not that I have any room to criticize in that > regard, mind you. At any rate a new, lighter, Nordy with a new, heavier, > Doug should glide about the same if it's all about the mass and ignoring > minor differences between kayak shapes. > > I still think adding a rudder to some boats is perfectly reasonable and > acceptable. I'd never consider one on a Coaster or Express but would for a > Mariner II, for instance. Especially with the new gas-pedal systems. But > I'd > never think of taking a Mariner II into a rock garden either. (Yikes!) > > My own attitude stems from my conviction that there is no one single > perfect > kayak unless you only do one thing. So, with the popularity of craigslist, > one can now acquire enough kayaks to satisfy every need from creekboating > to > fishing without breaking the bank (or a marriage). Although I admit that > the > marriage might get bent some. > > Doug will be able to come down into the USA in a while so maybe we should > have a mini-seminar where we gather all our boats and let him try them. I > vote for Bowman Bay with easy access to the currents in Deception Pass. > I'll > bring my F-1 and an Express with sliding seat. Pam can bring her Ice Kapp > and (maybe) an Illusion. We can call it the Doug Lloyd Memor... no, > wait... > that's a bit premature. Um... the Doug Lloyd Invitational is better. :P > > Craig Jungers > Maybe I've Just Driven Too Long Today > in Moses Lake, WA > www.nwkyakaing.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Jungers" <crjungers_at_gmail.com> To: "Scott Hilliard" <kiayker_at_sbcglobal.net> Cc: "Paddlewise" <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; "Doug Lloyd" <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 12:36 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Feed the Need > This has certainly become an interesting thread. I liked Scott's response > re:his experiences with the Arluk II (I think Pam has an Arluk II for sale > in the Seattle area) If any of you are interested, I have an Arluk 1.8 for sale down here :-) The exchange rate is in your favour, which may help off set the shipping costs! Of course, I could always get Freya to paddle it back once she finishes Aussie, should be faster than sea freight. And possibly air freight as well. Cheers JKA John Kirk-Anderson Banks Peninsula New Zealand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Tord wrote: >>>>Maybe a rudder cum skeg is the ideal?! A rudder that only works as a skeg, deployed only when needed - one foot down to lower and the other down to lift it?!<<<< That reminds me, I've been keeping a sit-on-top surf kayak design close to my vest for many years just in case I wanted to build it someday (but we never did). I got a little too old and also too busy with business to put the time in the ocean surf needed to develop it. My thought was to have three retractable fins. The middle fin would have been much like a regualr adjustable skeg but the other two would have been mounted more to the side and have an angle built into them (or have been on a pivoting piece--like a big slotted peg in a round hole--that could have the angle of the slot changed. I planned to do something like that anyway on the first prototypes to fine tune the best fin angle, even if the fins were later just placed in fixed position angled slots. The slots would go all the way through the sit-on-top hull like skupper holes (and might serve that function as well). The central skeg would be for keeping the quick turning surf kayak tracking straight in calmer waters such as when travelling some distance to find a good surfing location. The other two skegs would be operated by toe pedals (or I imagined even by ones knees somehow). Push your toes on one foot forward and the angled fin on one side deploys and helps turn the kayak (or helps it hold an angle on the wave against broaching). Push the toes of both feet forward and both the (oppositely) angled blades could serve as a brake to slow your speed when you are outrunning the sweet spot on the wave (but know when you do you will soon slow down on the flat and then be overtaken too quickly by the wave and likely eaten by the break--or soup afterwards). The angled skegs would have springs or shock cords that retracted them all the way into the hull automatically whenever you didn't point your toes. You would control the depth of the fin by how far you pointed your toes. Regular surf kayakers should understand what I mean here and just why a brake that (unlike a paddle) operates without turning the kayak would be desireble when surfing straight down a wave face and wanting to keep your options open as which way to peal out just before the wave breaks. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I've had a similar idea to Matt's. My thought was the two angled fins would be place quite close behind the cockpit. These fins could help hold the boat up high on the wave while cutting diagonally along the wave face. Nick On Jun 23, 2009, at 11:45 PM, MATT MARINER BROZE wrote: > Tord wrote: > >>>>> Maybe a rudder cum skeg is the ideal?! A rudder that only works >>>>> as a skeg, > deployed > only when needed - one foot down to lower and the other down to lift > it?!<<<< > My thought was to have three > retractable fins. > > The central skeg would be for keeping the quick turning surf kayak > tracking > straight in calmer waters such as when travelling some distance to > find a good > surfing location. The other two skegs would be operated by toe > pedals (or I > imagined even by ones knees somehow). > *************************************************************************** Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 54 South Rd Groton, CT 06340 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Jun 24, 2009, at 11:24 AM, Nick Schade wrote: > I've had a similar idea to Matt's. My thought was the two angled > fins would be place quite close behind the cockpit. These fins > could help hold the boat up high on the wave while cutting > diagonally along the wave face. > Nick > > Most surfers I know are obsessed with weight. Will this cause a big weight penalty? Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
What I liked about a drop skeg in the back of a surfing/travelling kayak was that then you could have a kayak that not only could travel long distances easily but could peel off the steep wave face at the last second before it breaks (like a river or squirt kayak can do). With a Coaster you have to try to time the break several seconds in advance to turn back off the wave you are surfing on before it breaks. The Coaster was a lot faster than a river kayak too so it had more of a tendency to outrun the wave face it was surfing down, thus my wish for a little braking effect when needed to keep a faster kayak in the sweet spot on a wave. I had several other ideas I wanted to try in a surfing/day-touring sit-on-top kayak such as a stern that would brake hard when the kayak was being pushed backwards by a broken wave. It think this would help one punch out through big soups rather than get surfed backwards (or rear endered) when it is so big you can't punch through it by paddling hard. Maybe a big Kamm effect (squared off) stern could be designed to make an effective brake to sudden backwards movement once the bow has been lifted and pushed back by the oncoming wave. Maybe a hinged plate at the bottom of the Kamm Effect stern that would swing back out of the way when moving forward through the water but swing quickly to a perpendicular stop position automatically if the kayak moved backwards in the water at the stern. Or maybe the hinged plate could be deployed by pushing on a third pedal and retract automatically. This might also serve as a brake going forward if it could be partially deployed with a foot control when surfing forward. Or maybe the two turning fins I proposed using as a forward brake (in the last e-mail) when used together might also have enough angle to them to also serve as a good brake if used together as one started moving backward. Any young kayak surfing dudes out in Paddlewise land want to make a surfing machine that can also paddle well for long distances. Prototypes could be made from plywood or door skins fairly easily. If so, contact me, I'm full of ideas along this line, but I don't surf enough anymore that I'm going to build and test such a kayak myself. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jerry, After almost 30 years of paddling it was you that finally got me thinking about hull performance. The other issues of boat construction, rigging, seat comfort and the like are primary issues for me but ones that are subservient to overall boat performance simply because those aspects are rectifiable if lacking in a particular design, while the primacy of desired hull performance is not. For a dedicated playboat my options are good if I want to obtain a kayak with good maneuverability and the preferred paddler feedback you seem to be eloquently suing for, with respectively the added desirability of some reserve stability. I'm looking for something a bit longer that a dedicated playboat with a good turn of speed, though length doesn't always equate with a fast touring pace potential. Certainly the NDK/SKUK boats are well respected; I just can't seem to catch the fever. It would certainly make life a lot easier if I did. A fellow I know on Westcoastpaddler (who has other kayaks than listed next), moved away from dedicating himself exclusively to his first kayak, a Greenlander, then moved to a Nordkapp LV, and it now in the seat of a Tiderace Xcite. I think he's dialed in finally. His comments are interesting: "I love the Xcite. So much so that I have resigned myself to the foot pegs, for now at least. It takes a bit more oomf to get it on edge than a Nordkapp, and I find that I have to muscle it around a bit more. But, it is very stable and forgiving, and very comfortable." So what exactly comprises an excellent hull design with the characteristics you have been impressing upon me. Not a round bilge hull per se if it lends an amount of tenderness that detract from the ability to relax. But then again, random comments from the internet: "Am I mistaken or is the Nordkapp when loaded a very stable boat in dynamic conditions? How does it compare to the Explorer?" "I paddle a Romany. Great day boat. Can't carry gear for trips. I also paddle a Greenlander Pro. Great for following seas. Recently I tried a Nordkapp with about 50 lbs. gear aboard. I was astonished at how little the kayak moved around in following and quartering seas. Others bracing hard; I didn't. I then paddled it empty, pushed it in maneuvers and got to practice rolling." "Their hull cross sections are very different; the Nordkapp is rounded whilst the Explorer has a flatter bottom and soft chines. This affects the way they handle in waves, which is better depends very much on you." "I find the Romany a forgiving kayak, but one that requires a fair bit from me in conditions. The Nordkapp I found less forgiving, but also requiring me to do less in conditions, for example less tendency for steep waves to want to capsize the Nordkapp (thus, less bracing), following seas lifting the stern less (thus, less yawing and fewer correcting strokes to hold a course)." "The more I paddle the Nordkapp the faster I can make it go. This is especially true in following seas. With concentration, the energy in waves from astern can be harvested with remarkable efficiency. In a following sea no one I know can keep up with me, even quite good paddlers in very good kayaks." "The Nordkapp remains the most seaworthy and fastest kayak I've ever paddled. It is also dramatically unforgiving. There is little static stability. The paddler has to provide the dynamic stability. If you do, the rewards are exceptional." "Many of you have seen me at club events with my golden yellow NDK Romany Explorer...I've had the good fortune of owning a number of very good boats in the past, and I recently received delivery of a Valley Nordkapp Jubilee. The Romany Explorer is by far my favorite (even after the new boat, which is taking some getting used to). It has a beautiful design, and is an excellent all-around boat touring boat...The Explorer is the longer (and faster) version of the standard Romany, which is 16 feet long. The most superb feature of this boat is its hull design. It has a moderate "v" profile, with medium chines, and a moderate amount of rocker. As a result, the boat loves to be put on edge and leaned, and its stability on edge inspires a lot of confidence -- much more so than a rounded hull, which may have little to stop you (other than your skills) from continuing to go over when edged. The Romany Explorer is also very stable in rough water and is predictable in its handling. In fact, my experience has been that the rougher the water, the more stable it has felt. The "v" shaped hull gives it a well defined keel, and I think as a result it tracks very well when at speed, with very little weather cocking in wind. In fact, it tracks well enough that I rarely use the skeg anymore and, if I were to purchase the boat again, I would probably order it without a skeg. Despite the good tracking, it has some rocker and still turns very well, particularly when edged or leaned." So Jerry, there is no consensus (?). The Nordkapp LV would be the natural progression for me out of the Nordkapp HS and HM models I'm used to. It is purported to be maneuverable and fast (at least off the line) as long as you are "at the top of your game" and very responsive side to side -- but without soft chines, isn't going to have the feedback. I think the Reed/Rockpool rep in Washington (Chris Mitchell?) will be building the Rockpool boats soon here in North America. I don't think he has the Rockpool GT mold yet, but I'd love to give the GT a demo. The deck is a bit high for me but the hull sounds superb if I go that route. http://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&p=372758 http://www.expeditionkayaks.com/2009/05/rockpool-gt-design-notes.html I appreciate yours and other's ongoing "feedback" and hopefully we aren't boring folks. I for one am at a stage personally in my life where the old, tried and true maintains allure (and a desperate nostalgia) but can't satisfy fully anymore. Feeding the new need is going to take some effort. The latest runnels of wet salt water don't trickle down a fresh face here; there are multiple layers of dried salt water encrusting that epidermal barrier that is a bit thick skinned at times for which paddlewise readers have always allowed this gonzo paddler a wide margin of grace to figure things out. Doug Lloyd > Doug, > There have been enough highly positive reviews of the Nordkapp NLV to > conclude that it is a wonderful boat. However, there are always some > comments such as the reviewer's you quote, "...LV is by far among the more > demanding and least forgiving of the sea kayaks I've paddled.." My basic > question remains, what is the advantage of getting one of the least > forgiving of sea kayaks, when there are others around that are faster and > easier in rough conditions? I await your final conclusion with keen > anticipation, since you have so much rough water Nordkapp experience. Is > there not some boat out there that is at least a bit better (for your > purposes) than the NLV? > Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. 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Doug, There have been enough highly positive reviews of the Nordkapp NLV to conclude that it is a wonderful boat. However, there are always some comments such as the reviewer's you quote, "...LV is by far among the more demanding and least forgiving of the sea kayaks I've paddled.." My basic question remains, what is the advantage of getting one of the least forgiving of sea kayaks, when there are others around that are faster and easier in rough conditions? I await your final conclusion with keen anticipation, since you have so much rough water Nordkapp experience. Is there not some boat out there that is at least a bit better (for your purposes) than the NLV? Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Guys, new review in on the Nordkapp LV I though was interesting. I agree they need to lower the rear coaming. My idea is to lower the whole deck. To do this I need a cheap used LV. Here's the review: http://www.paddling.net/Reviews/showReviews.html?prod=1796 Quote: 06-10-2009 I've now had a Nordkapp LV since October 2007. My Nordlow is beautifully made and, though a standard layup with keel strip, it weighs notably less than my 2004 ProLite lay-up Aquanaut. I have paddled the boat in an array of conditions on the coast of Maine and on Lake George, the Hudson, and a few other inland waters. The Nordkapp LV accelerates faster than any other boat I've paddled. It responds effortlessly to corrective strokes. It comes about more adroitly than my Romany. It is a fairly tender boat when at rest and firms up noticeably when moving through lumpy seas. The Nordlow rolls faster than nearly any other boat in my experience. Having gotten spoiled by my Romany, I have window-shaded the 'kapp LV more than once. The Nordlow is not a novice's boat. The 'kapp LV is by far among the more demanding and least forgiving of the sea kayaks I've paddled. When Peter Orton states ".for the advanced and advancing paddler" he is being honest and accurate. This boat has challenged my equanimity more than once. I've lowered the seat a half inch which has improved the boat's stability a bit and made the cockpit fit more comfortable for me. I wish the rear of the coaming was at least an inch lower. A 'rolling' recess would allow for more comfortable laybacks while keeping the aft deck high enough to not scoop excessive amounts of water. The most complete review of the 'kapp LV I've found is Douglas Wilcox's: http://seakayakphoto.blogspot.com/2007/01/valley-nordkapp-lv-test.html This boat makes a very responsive and quick day boat for someone my size - 6', 180+ pounds. The Nordkapp LV is a fun boat for those times one is on top of ones game. Rating: 9 of 10 > Steve, > Although I agree about what happens once you are on the edge of a NF boat, > that misses the point a bit. What seems desireable to me is to get > gradually progressive feedback as you lean from center, as well as > gradually progressive carving. It seems preferable to me to be able to > easily and controllably regulate the degree of edging and the resultant > degree of turning. The Mariner II, for example, has this excellent > characteristic, as do other boats. Perhaps one can develop this ability > with the Shadow, but I don't see what advantage the light primary has. > Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jerry, Reviews are coming in now on the Rockpool GT. I was after a do-it-all boat with capacity, speed, and maneuverability - with a forward day hatch. Check out Rob's review in the link: http://www.expeditionkayaks.com/2009/08/rockpool-gt.html Doug > Doug, > There have been enough highly positive reviews of the Nordkapp NLV to > conclude that it is a wonderful boat. However, there are always some > comments such as the reviewer's you quote, "...LV is by far among the more > demanding and least forgiving of the sea kayaks I've paddled.." My basic > question remains, what is the advantage of getting one of the least > forgiving of sea kayaks, when there are others around that are faster and > easier in rough conditions? I await your final conclusion with keen > anticipation, since you have so much rough water Nordkapp experience. Is > there not some boat out there that is at least a bit better (for your > purposes) than the NLV? > Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 11:58 PM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > Jerry, > > Reviews are coming in now on the Rockpool GT. I was after a do-it-all boat > with capacity, speed, and maneuverability - with a forward day hatch. > > Check out Rob's review in the link: > > http://www.expeditionkayaks.com/2009/08/rockpool-gt.html > > Very interesting boat. I wonder if someone might have one at the Port Townsend seminar this month. Pricing for kevlar boats are now into the mid US$4k range now with glass boats running in the mid to upper US$3k range. I wonder where this will fall. Also wonder how it compares to Sterling's Illusion and the old, faithful, Mariners. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug wrote: - >Reviews are coming in now on the Rockpool GT. I was after a do-it-all boat >with capacity, speed, and maneuverability - with a forward day hatch. G'day Doug and Jerry, A demonstration Rockpool arrived in Sydney about a month ago and the reports I'm hearing are that it is reasonably fast, handles well in the surf and for a mid-sized boat it has remarkable storage capacity without being too beamy and without losing too much speed when loaded because of its high deck. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I hope Chris Mitchell will. He has a nice rebate deal for out-of-staters (country, too, I image) as well as a referral rebate program. It will be interesting to see if the GT garners the legendary status that some of the Mariners did, once out there enough. Proof is in the pudding, so it'll be try try try for me. Betta get that passport in order... DL > On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 11:58 PM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > >> Jerry, >> >> Reviews are coming in now on the Rockpool GT. I was after a do-it-all >> boat >> with capacity, speed, and maneuverability - with a forward day hatch. >> >> Check out Rob's review in the link: >> >> http://www.expeditionkayaks.com/2009/08/rockpool-gt.html >> >> > Very interesting boat. I wonder if someone might have one at the Port > Townsend seminar this month. Pricing for kevlar boats are now into the mid > US$4k range now with glass boats running in the mid to upper US$3k range. > I > wonder where this will fall. Also wonder how it compares to Sterling's > Illusion and the old, faithful, Mariners. > > Craig Jungers > Moses Lake, WA > www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I believe that Chris Mitchell, from the Bellingham, WA area, handles and paddles Rockpool. If someone was interested, I'm sure he could be contacted through the WAKE site (Whatcom Association of Kayak Enthusiasts). He was the instructor for the recent ACA Level two instructors certification held at Bellingham. I don't know if he will be at the Port Townsend Symposium. Pam from WA state In a message dated 9/4/2009 9:05:16 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, crjungers_at_gmail.com writes: > > Reviews are coming in now on the Rockpool GT. I was after a do-it-all boat > with capacity, speed, and maneuverability - with a forward day hatch. > > Check out Rob's review in the link: > > http://www.expeditionkayaks.com/2009/08/rockpool-gt.html > > Very interesting boat. I wonder if someone might have one at the Port Townsend seminar this month. Pricing for kevlar boats are now into the mid US$4k range now with glass boats running in the mid to upper US$3k range. I wonder where this will fall. Also wonder how it compares to Sterling's Illusion and the old, faithful, Mariners. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Chris Mitchell IS Mr Rockpool! Simeon On Sep 4, 2009, at 9:38 AM, Pamvetdr_at_aol.com wrote: > I believe that Chris Mitchell, from the Bellingham, WA area, handles > and paddles Rockpool. If someone was interested, I'm sure he could be > contacted through the WAKE site (Whatcom Association of Kayak Enthusiasts). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jerry, Now we have a new vally kayak, the Etain... http://aswatersportsequipment.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=21_46&products_id=1569 > Jerry, > > Reviews are coming in now on the Rockpool GT. I was after a do-it-all boat > with capacity, speed, and maneuverability - with a forward day hatch. > > Check out Rob's review in the link: > > http://www.expeditionkayaks.com/2009/08/rockpool-gt.html > > Doug > >> Doug, >> There have been enough highly positive reviews of the Nordkapp NLV to >> conclude that it is a wonderful boat. However, there are always some >> comments such as the reviewer's you quote, "...LV is by far among the >> more demanding and least forgiving of the sea kayaks I've paddled.." My >> basic question remains, what is the advantage of getting one of the least >> forgiving of sea kayaks, when there are others around that are faster and >> easier in rough conditions? I await your final conclusion with keen >> anticipation, since you have so much rough water Nordkapp experience. Is >> there not some boat out there that is at least a bit better (for your >> purposes) than the NLV? >> Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug, You should try paddling the Illusion which is being made near you in Bellingham by Sterling's Kayaks. Warren Williamson has paddled one in extreme conditions in Dectption Pass (Pam was watching it from the bridge and took photos). Pam has one and loves it. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 12:50 AM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > Jerry, > > Now we have a new vally kayak, the Etain... > > > http://aswatersportsequipment.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=21_46&products_id=1569 > > Jerry, >> >> Reviews are coming in now on the Rockpool GT. I was after a do-it-all boat >> with capacity, speed, and maneuverability - with a forward day hatch. >> >> Check out Rob's review in the link: >> >> http://www.expeditionkayaks.com/2009/08/rockpool-gt.html >> >> Doug >> >> Doug, >>> There have been enough highly positive reviews of the Nordkapp NLV to >>> conclude that it is a wonderful boat. However, there are always some >>> comments such as the reviewer's you quote, "...LV is by far among the more >>> demanding and least forgiving of the sea kayaks I've paddled.." My basic >>> question remains, what is the advantage of getting one of the least >>> forgiving of sea kayaks, when there are others around that are faster and >>> easier in rough conditions? I await your final conclusion with keen >>> anticipation, since you have so much rough water Nordkapp experience. Is >>> there not some boat out there that is at least a bit better (for your >>> purposes) than the NLV? >>> Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig, Got the word on that awhile back. On my short list. I like Warren - every stroke seems like an effortless recovery stroke even underwater. Properly equipped and a skilled rider in the seat, a real sea kayak is a compelling substitute for a submarine. :-) I asked Valley what the deck height of the new Etain will be. The reply: Hi Doug The full sized Etain measures in at 9" for the back deck, and 13" in front of the cockpit. The LV version will be slightly lower by around half an inch once in production. Kind Regards Andy Valley Canoe Products Ltd 0115 9614995 I was hoping for a lower back deck. The Etain may be more of a concession to the day-boating, light-play North American market. The Maelstrom Vaag 174 I tried in Vancouver was the closest thing I've seen that I like in a touring playboat (I didn't fit the Vital 166)and the Northshore Shoreline (now the Atlantic LV I think) for an all-around dayboat. Of course, I'm still looking for the perfect boat that tours with speed and capacity, performs in surf/rock gardens, behaves neutrally and allows layback rolls while responding to edging and leaning with a modicum of stability. As one still has to paddle from a to b, I just can't see myself in a dedicated short boat. My wife said she married me because she knew if she waited for the perfect husband, it would be a long wait. And so to with kayaks - one could wait for a long time. Or, like Pam and you, be culpable of kayak polygamy (or is that polyandry with for Pam?). Robin at Atlantis Kayaks is working on (I believe) a performance day/play sea kayak. I have yet to try the Illusion. Not all kayaks deliver what they promise. Take the Valley Anas Acuta. Too bad it's a slow surfer on following seas. Doug Craig said: Doug, You should try paddling the Illusion which is being made near you in Bellingham by Sterling's Kayaks. Warren Williamson has paddled one in extreme conditions in Dectption Pass (Pam was watching it from the bridge and took photos). Pam has one and loves it. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 12:50 AM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > Jerry, > > Now we have a new vally kayak, the Etain... > > > http://aswatersportsequipment.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=21_46&products_id =1569 > > Jerry, >> >> Reviews are coming in now on the Rockpool GT. I was after a do-it-all boat >> with capacity, speed, and maneuverability - with a forward day hatch. >> >> Check out Rob's review in the link: >> >> http://www.expeditionkayaks.com/2009/08/rockpool-gt.html >> >> Doug >> >> Doug, >>> There have been enough highly positive reviews of the Nordkapp NLV to >>> conclude that it is a wonderful boat. However, there are always some >>> comments such as the reviewer's you quote, "...LV is by far among the more >>> demanding and least forgiving of the sea kayaks I've paddled.." My basic >>> question remains, what is the advantage of getting one of the least >>> forgiving of sea kayaks, when there are others around that are faster and >>> easier in rough conditions? I await your final conclusion with keen >>> anticipation, since you have so much rough water Nordkapp experience. Is >>> there not some boat out there that is at least a bit better (for your >>> purposes) than the NLV? >>> Jerry . *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug, >From the photos, the Illusion seems entirely unsuited to your purpose, unless you want to specialize in tide race play. Way too much rocker to be efficient at long distance travel. I don't know anything about the Etain. >From the Rockpool web site, the GT seems perfect. I bet it is faster than the equivalent Nordkapp, and more stable. The low overhang at the stern seems suitable for one of your deep draft rudders. I have no idea how it would be on a long windy crossing without a rudder. (I like rudders.) Jerry On Jan 2, 2011, at 11:15 AM, Craig Jungers wrote: > Doug, > > You should try paddling the Illusion which is being made near you in > Bellingham by Sterling's Kayaks. Warren Williamson has paddled one in > extreme conditions in Dectption Pass (Pam was watching it from the bridge > and took photos). Pam has one and loves it. > > > Craig Jungers > Moses Lake, WA > www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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