I've been sitting here this morning thinking over how many years I've spent at sea..... not just as a "mariner" but actually "at sea" and it amounts to a fair number of years. Between running a salmon troller, working on the Hughes Glomar Explorer (my first job on a "ship"), working for several drilling ship outfits (28 days on and 28 days off for 7 years), and finally on tankers for Sun, Exxon and Chevron it amounts to about a full decade actually at sea. I'm not counting the 5 years we spent cruising the sailboat because even though we always slept on the boat, we were at anchor 90% of the time so maybe another six months underway time. I know that compared to the "real sailors" back in the days when sailors would spend 40 years of their lives at sea it's not that much but hey, times have changed. A fair bit of this has been in nasty places. The Davis Strait off the west coast of Greenland, offshore of Newfoundland (where the Ocean Ranger went down shortly after I left the area), the west coast of Ireland (nastiest summer I've ever spent... not counting San Francisco), numerous trips from Houston, TX through the Panama Canal to Valdez, AK and return, and a regular route from SFO to Valdez to Anchorage to Kenai to Honolulu to SFO. Plus two memorable trips across the north Atlantic in a semi-submersible drill rig. And in all that time I've never seen a "rogue wave". Mind you, I've seen some big seas (70-foot as measure by a wave-rider buoy on that semi) but no actual rogue waves. I'm thinking about this because of a tv program which alleges that there are lots more rogue waves than we have thought. That's not too surprising because up until recently lots of people thought "rogue waves" were the sorts of things incompetent captains made up to explain the screw ups that sank their ships. We're not talking about boomers on the coast where a submerged rock might be. Nor is a rogue wave any type of tsunami; a tsunami in the open ocean is so deep that the wave itself may not even be noticed. A "rogue wave" has to be a wave in the open ocean that is so out of character with the prevailing sea by its height that it's unexplainable. Normally they occur alone and suddenly and, if the stories are to be believed, can reach heights of over 100 feet with 50 to 60 foot not unusual (well... unusual for a "rogue wave" at least). One of the photos on the tv program showed the bow of a ship headed into a sea dotted with whitecaps with a huge wave breaking along the starboard side of the ship at a 45-degree angle. So... my question is... anyone ever encounter a rogue wave and what were the circumstances. Anyone have any thoughts? Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I don't know if they qualify as a "rogue wave", but Oregon experiences so-called "sneaker waves" on a fairly regular basis. These are waves that appear without warning along the beaches and sweep unsuspecting tourists and beachcomers into the ocean, where moments before they were "safely" walking on dry sand. I've never actually seen one, but they make the news every year, sometimes leading to fatalities. Don't know of any scientific or statistical studies. One particular wave swept the parking lot at the Barview Jetty at Garibaldi and trapped an elderly woman under a parked car in 1-2 feet of water. She was rescued. Brad Quoting Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com>: > And in all that time I've never seen a "rogue wave". Mind you, I've seen > some big seas (70-foot as measure by a wave-rider buoy on that semi) but no > actual rogue waves. I'm thinking about this because of a tv program which > alleges that there are lots more rogue waves than we have thought. That's > not too surprising because up until recently lots of people thought "rogue > waves" were the sorts of things incompetent captains made up to explain the > screw ups that sank their ships. > > So... my question is... anyone ever encounter a rogue wave and what were the > circumstances. Anyone have any thoughts? > > > Craig Jungers > Moses Lake, WA > www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bradford R. Crain wrote: > I don't know if they qualify as a "rogue wave", but Oregon experiences > so-called "sneaker waves" on a fairly regular basis. These are waves > that appear without warning along the beaches and sweep unsuspecting > tourists and beachcomers into the ocean, where moments before they were > "safely" walking on dry sand. I've never actually seen one, but they > make the news every year, sometimes leading to fatalities. Don't know of > any scientific or statistical studies. One particular wave swept the > parking lot at the Barview Jetty at Garibaldi and trapped an elderly > woman under a parked car in 1-2 feet of water. She was rescued. Brad, sneaker waves are caused by constructive interference of two wave trains from different sources. The direction (and distance) of travel being different, now and then a crest from one source will combine with the crest from the other source in the formative stage of becoming surf. When this larger-than-normal combination surges up on the beach (or jetty), it will often be 1.5 times the height of the "average" wave from either source. And, it will run up a lot higher than the average breakers. An experienced and astute observer of the surf zone can pick these out fairly easily as they form. But, folks who are playing near the normal swash zone of "average" waves are never looking far enough out to notice the formation of sneaker waves. Sadly, the victims are often children playing in the swash zone ... now and then crushed by the movement of large logs high above the usual extent of swash. There is a good description of these in Willard Bascom's classic book (long out of print), "Waves and Beaches." As to "rogue waves," there was a good article on them in one of the popular "science" periodicals recently. Wikipedia has a good summary of what is know of these, and describes the likely sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_wave I suspect the "non linear" hypothesis is the culprit. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 05:56:27PM -0700, Dave Kruger wrote: > As to "rogue waves," there was a good article on them in one of the popular > "science" periodicals recently. Wikipedia has a good summary of what is > know of these, and describes the likely sources: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_wave I suspect the "non linear" > hypothesis is the culprit. It certainly seems to fit the observed facts quite well. And nonlinear stochastic phenomena are often described with terms like "rogue" or "freak" that give some sense of their unexpected nature and the (apparently) sudden way they make their presence known. I think these anthropomorophic labels are used because most of the physical phenomena we deal with in our lives are approximately linear, and those that deviate sharply from this are surprising and frightening to us. We've evolved brains that are good at dealing with most of the things that we encounter most of the time. There's little value in evolving a brain that can comprehend something like a rogue wave, because until very very recently just about everyone who ever saw one was dead shortly thereafter. Only now do we have the technology to observe one from a distance or perhaps survive a direct encounter with one -- but it's far ahead of our primitive simian minds. So on the surface we may be thinking "Hmm...51 meters, that's odd..." but deep inside somewhere there's a part of us screaming "AIIIIIIYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE". ---Rsk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rich Kulawiec wrote: >> Wikipedia has a good summary of what is know of these, and describes >> the likely sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_wave I suspect >> the "non linear" hypothesis is the culprit. [I wrote this.] To which Rich responded: > It certainly seems to fit the observed facts quite well. And nonlinear > stochastic phenomena are often described with terms like "rogue" or > "freak" that give some sense of their unexpected nature and the > (apparently) sudden way they make their presence known. I think these > anthropomorphic labels are used because most of the physical phenomena > we deal with in our lives are approximately linear, and those that > deviate sharply from this are surprising and frightening to us. I think you really nailed the psychology, Rich. Some of the buzz here on PW has taken to task these labels and has ignored the solid observations of their existence. Such is often the way of "linear" thinkers when confronted with nonlinear phenomena. It might be worth noting that the paradigm shift which began to occur in many scientific communities beginning some 20-plus years ago on recognition that nonlinear phenomena were all around us is perhaps THE major all-encompassing scientific discovery of our generation. Yes, it is that big. Anybody who has not taken the time to digest the elements and the implications of the concept is engaging in buggy-whip analysis of the new world. And, that is putting it mildly. It's not too late. James Gleick's classic introduction to "chaos theory," entitled CHAOS: The Making of a New Science (Viking; 1987) is a good place to start. It is written for a general audience, but will challenge almost every alert reader. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig, et al: I've been in touch with Kristian Dysthe of the University of Bergen, Norway, Department of Mathmatics regarding information summing up in an article current knowledge on rogue waves (theory/measurements, primarily from oil platforms). If anyone would like the PDF file (for personal reading only), let me know. Doug Lloyd > Steve.... that's an amazing set of photos in the link. I loved the > fractured > Italish in the commentaries. I had not realized that some passenger > vessels > used aluminum in their superstructures back in the 60s. It sure seems > counter-intuitive now. > > I'm sure you were an extra-ordinary seaman. One summer (3 months) was a > typical tour for me on tankers and I bet it seemed to last forever. > > Thanks for the link. I'm bookmarking it. :) > > > Craig > > On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 8:08 AM, Steve Cramer <cramersec_at_charter.net> > wrote: > >> During the summer I spent as an Ordinary Seaman (I personally think I was >> a >> extraordinary seaman, though the bosun didn't always agree), there was a >> poster on the bridge detailing the damage to the liner Michelangelo. As I >> recall, that was referred to as a rogue wave. Some info here: >> http://www.michelangelo-raffaello.com/english_site/service_michelangelo/accident_michelangelo/accident_mich.htm *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Great question, Craig. I'm not entirely sure I wish I had the depth and breadth of maritime experience to answer. But I've been reading an array of books about large ships under sail...some of them many readers of this list will find to be thoroughly worth the read (Eric Newby's "The Last Grain Race" is one...as is "Tall Ships Down" by Daniel S. Parrott) I was just up in Nova Scotia and visited the harbors at Lunenburg and Halifax. The Pictou Castle is sailed out of Lunenburg and was/remains the focus of inquiry and debate about safety & training practices aboard these types of ships...nearly all of which are owned by governments or by private foundations (The Pictou Castle being an privately-owned exception) that rely upon people to pay their 'tuition' to train at sea under sail. The incident in question involved a 25 year old Laura Gainey, daughter of Canadian hockey legend Bob Gainey, who was swept overboard in heavy weather some 1200 miles from the nearest Coast Guard station. The link to the CBC story is here: http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/overboard/ One of the salient arguments in the 'findings of fact' in this tragic incident is one which claims she was swept overboard by a 'rogue wave'. This would imply a wave that was extraordinary even within the context of the heavy weather in which the ship was laboring and which hindered or defeated attempts to recover her. And it would imply an 'act of nature', a cause much in the interest of the ship's owner and the man who still owns and captains the ship. But other crew on board at the time of the incident (the owner/captain was not) dispute these claims....one says, "Waves come in sets, in trains, and every 7th wave that night was big...the watch on deck was up to their armpits in green water that night...so how you designate the one wave that swept her overboard as 'rogue' is beyond me..." In other words...there may well be a scientific model and empirical evidence that suggests value for a term like, 'rogue wave.' But there are also mitigating experiences where the term 'rogue wave', like 'act of God', seems to invoke or explain what we either can not or are not willing or able to explain in other, less forgiving terms. Watch the CBC story. Compelling stuff. I'd already read Newby's book a few years ago, but this led me to re-read it and to pick up Parrott's excellent post-mortems of five 'tall ship' losses. -Will *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
My comments may be digressive, but they are not a 'red herring.' "Rogue wave" is a term seeing increased usage by different people to describe both experience & phenomena. The scientific community is studying naturally occurring sea states, in part, because of anecdotal accounts. The scientific, empiric approach to defining 'rogue wave' may or may not guide, inform, modify the anecdotal usage. When a well-respected, highly experienced, significantly accomplished sea going professional (the Captain and owner of Pictou Castle) uses the term 'rogue wave' to assign causation to a fatality at sea, we're seeing the anecdotal cross over into 'findings of fact'. It's the Captain of Pictou Castle who is guilty of employing a 'red herring' to deflect attention away from human failing and toward natural events. Sneaker waves are only 'sneakers' because people are not paying attention, or they are not in a position from which the event can be observed. Rogue waves may only be rogue because we cannot predict the pattern or overlay a pattern that explains their occurrence. Having just spent some time on the Bay of Fundy, I heard all manner of localized stories concerning people who presumed the dramatic tides rose with uniformity...and in acting on such presumption, found themselves stranded or in significant danger. This does not make for a "Killer Tide." Descriptive terms such as 'sneaker' and 'rogue' attribute human characteristics to naturally occurring events. Sorry. Nature doesn't sneak, nor is nature capable of 'going rogue'. Nature is indifferent. People can chase tornadoes. Tornadoes cannot 'chase' people. I find it interesting that ocean scientists are using the term, 'rogue wave'. It certainly sells their study much more effectively than "Anomalous Wave Pattern Studies", at least to the general public. Imagine meteorologists using the terms, "Assassin Tornados." -Will *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I saw a "Killer Tornado" once in Texas. Also, the Rogue River in southern Oregon is chock full of "Rogue waves". "Menacing Thunderstorms" are common in the U.S. midwest. "Brooding Dark Clouds" are found everywhere. The persistant rain in the Pacific NW is "unapologetic". Salmon that jump but won't bite are "teasing" or "smart". Heavy objects that I cannot lift are "uncooperative". Kayaks that I can't paddle fast are "lethargic" and "defective". Still haven't found any "mellow tornados". BRC Quoting William Jennings <will_at_bigwoodenradio.com>: > I find it interesting that ocean scientists are using the term, 'rogue wave'. > It certainly sells their study much more effectively than "Anomalous > Wave Pattern Studies", > at least to the general public. Imagine meteorologists using the > terms, "Assassin Tornados." > > -Will *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
William Jennings wrote: > Imagine meteorologists using the terms, "Assassin Tornados." Ahem Google Results 1 - 10 of about 26,600 for killer tornado noaa 2007 Tornado Fatality Information Jan 20, 2009 ... February Killer Tornadoes: 3 Fatalities: 22 ... www.spc.noaa.gov/climo/torn/2007deadlytorn.html NWS Norman, Oklahoma - February 10, 2009 Tornadoes Portions of the Oklahoma City metro area were hit, and a killer tornado struck the the town of Lone Grove, OK. Officials from the NWS and NOAA are ... www.srh.noaa.gov/oun/wxevents/20090210/ Top ten killer tornadoes in Nebraska history Apr 27, 2006 ... The top ten killer tornadoes in Nebraska history may surprise you. www.crh.noaa.gov/oax/archive/1913_Omaha.../topten.php Killer Tornado [Archive] - Stormtrack 16 posts - 12 authors - Last post: Aug 16, 2005 www.stormtrack.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-5631.html Storm Prediction Center Monthly and Annual Summaries Jan 23, 2009 NUMBER OF KILLER TORNADO DEATHS TORNADOES ..2009. ... www.spc.ncep.noaa.gov/climo/online/monthly/newm.html Storm Warning: The Story of a Killer Tornado - Google Books Result by Nancy Mathis - 2008 - Nature - 256 pages books.google.com/books?isbn=0743296605 -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA http://www.savvypaddler.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Killer Tornados" do not ascribe 'murderous intent' to a phenomena of weather. Because people drown in a lake does not make it 'Killer Lake'. If you all want to ascribe human qualities to meteorological events, be my guest. And be sure to give my best regards to Snow White, Harry Potter, and Davy Jones. -Will *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I think the last time you were in California Craig, visiting with Mark by the beach and a pretty 20-something blond bombshell went by, you waved unabashedly at her. That was a rogue wave, and you were it - or at least a rogue of significant stature. So at least Mark has certainly witnessed Washingtonian State "rogue waves" even as far down as So Cal :-) Seriously though, real rogue waves do exist; we even have the science to prove it (William's quotes were a bit of a Red Herring but did stir the anecdotal tempest a bit). And better yet, we have the myth. Myths are usually based on some type of reality, especially when myth refuses to be disproved scientifically as millennia flow by, and in actuality, recently science proves their occurrence -- even as highlighted and discussed here on Paddlewise a while ago regarding the ESA's MaxWave Project evidence. I do think the rogue waves that get blamed for sweeping sightseers/tourists and hikers off coastal rocks are often just a bigger set of waves coming in, though I have experienced a limited number of sudden, single, wave faces rear up semi-nearshore over the years, but wander if they were latent escapees from some distant event.. We lost our kayak association secretary a few years ago, mid 80's while she was hiking the West Coast Trail. She was pretty water savvy too. Many west coast locations now post rogue wave warnings and even corresponding threat levels at appropriate times. Deep water, threatening rogue waves do exist. Our univers -- our planet would be bereft of further mystery and awe if it were not so. Longtime mariners may have not encountered significant examples in the locations traveled, but they are out there. And there are rogue waves, then there are Rogue Waves; then there are the really rogue, Rogue Waves. But don't subdue their significance. Mariners don't when they do finally encounter them. Doug Lloyd (who dreams about rogue waves equally, if not more than blond bombshells) > I've been sitting here this morning thinking over how many years I've > spent > at sea..... not just as a "mariner" but actually "at sea" and it amounts > to > a fair number of years. Between running a salmon troller, working on the > Hughes Glomar Explorer (my first job on a "ship"), working for several > drilling ship outfits (28 days on and 28 days off for 7 years), and > finally > on tankers for Sun, Exxon and Chevron it amounts to about a full decade > actually at sea. I'm not counting the 5 years we spent cruising the > sailboat > because even though we always slept on the boat, we were at anchor 90% of > the time so maybe another six months underway time. > > I know that compared to the "real sailors" back in the days when sailors > would spend 40 years of their lives at sea it's not that much but hey, > times > have changed. > > A fair bit of this has been in nasty places. The Davis Strait off the west > coast of Greenland, offshore of Newfoundland (where the Ocean Ranger went > down shortly after I left the area), the west coast of Ireland (nastiest > summer I've ever spent... not counting San Francisco), numerous trips from > Houston, TX through the Panama Canal to Valdez, AK and return, and a > regular > route from SFO to Valdez to Anchorage to Kenai to Honolulu to SFO. Plus > two > memorable trips across the north Atlantic in a semi-submersible drill rig. > > And in all that time I've never seen a "rogue wave". Mind you, I've seen > some big seas (70-foot as measure by a wave-rider buoy on that semi) but > no > actual rogue waves. I'm thinking about this because of a tv program which > alleges that there are lots more rogue waves than we have thought. That's > not too surprising because up until recently lots of people thought "rogue > waves" were the sorts of things incompetent captains made up to explain > the > screw ups that sank their ships. > > We're not talking about boomers on the coast where a submerged rock might > be. Nor is a rogue wave any type of tsunami; a tsunami in the open ocean > is > so deep that the wave itself may not even be noticed. A "rogue wave" has > to > be a wave in the open ocean that is so out of character with the > prevailing > sea by its height that it's unexplainable. Normally they occur alone and > suddenly and, if the stories are to be believed, can reach heights of over > 100 feet with 50 to 60 foot not unusual (well... unusual for a "rogue > wave" > at least). One of the photos on the tv program showed the bow of a ship > headed into a sea dotted with whitecaps with a huge wave breaking along > the > starboard side of the ship at a 45-degree angle. > > So... my question is... anyone ever encounter a rogue wave and what were > the > circumstances. Anyone have any thoughts? > > > Craig Jungers > Moses Lake, WA > www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. 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Most of the rainstorms here in the Pacific NW are "mocking us". We "appease" them with Jim Dandy raingear. BRC Quoting William Jennings <will_at_bigwoodenradio.com>: > And do you ascribe the ability to 'brood' to clouds? > Do waves have the capacity to decide to act like a 'rogue'? > If and when the rain ever does apologize in person, let me know... > I'll buy you a beer. > > > On Aug 30, 2009, at 12:30 PM, Bradford R. Crain wrote: > >> I saw a "Killer Tornado" once in Texas. Also, the Rogue River in >> southern Oregon is chock full of "Rogue waves". "Menacing Thunderstorms" >> are common in the U.S. midwest. "Brooding Dark Clouds" are found everywhere. >> The persistant rain in the Pacific NW is "unapologetic". Salmon that jump >> but won't bite are "teasing" or "smart". Heavy objects that I cannot lift >> are "uncooperative". Kayaks that I can't paddle fast are "lethargic" and >> "defective". Still haven't found any "mellow tornados". >> >> BRC >> >> Quoting William Jennings <will_at_bigwoodenradio.com>: >> >> >>> I find it interesting that ocean scientists are using the term, >>> 'rogue wave'. >>> It certainly sells their study much more effectively than >>> "Anomalous Wave Pattern Studies", >>> at least to the general public. Imagine meteorologists using the >>> terms, "Assassin Tornados." >>> >>> -Will *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Will, Thank you for your thoughtful response. I anticipated this and had wanted a bit more of an explanation, though I could have just asked you directly. :-) I guess a red herring typically implies a deliberate attempt by the writer at diverting an argument, etc.; I wasn't using it in a pejorative sense towards you but, rather making the observation that during a rough seas incident, where there are larger sets of waves that by context already have a preponderance of destructive force, those wave are not the true rogue waves Craig was asking about and obfuscate the question at hand. So, I think that is what you were actually saying too. Most of us seem to agree "rogue wave" gets overused, misapplied, and misunderstood. But, real Rogue Waves are out there and do cause maritime mayhem, perhaps less frequently than blamed for but nevertheless, these events do take place. Certainly, the study of waves, including general surface wave propagation all the way to anomalous wave patters/probabilities is a mathematical/physics knowledge base and application that from what I've been exposed to in peripheral peeping suggests a taxing subject with years of research still ahead. Doug Lloyd > My comments may be digressive, but they are not a 'red herring.' > > "Rogue wave" is a term seeing increased usage by different people to > describe both experience & phenomena. > > The scientific community is studying naturally occurring sea states, in > part, because of anecdotal accounts. > > The scientific, empiric approach to defining 'rogue wave' may or may not > guide, inform, modify the anecdotal > usage. > > When a well-respected, highly experienced, significantly accomplished sea > going professional (the Captain and owner > of Pictou Castle) uses the term 'rogue wave' to assign causation to a > fatality at sea, we're seeing the anecdotal > cross over into 'findings of fact'. It's the Captain of Pictou Castle > who is guilty of employing a 'red herring' > to deflect attention away from human failing and toward natural events. > > Sneaker waves are only 'sneakers' because people are not paying > attention, or they are not in a position from which the event can be > observed. > Rogue waves may only be rogue because we cannot predict the pattern or > overlay a pattern that explains their occurrence. > Having just spent some time on the Bay of Fundy, I heard all manner of > localized stories concerning people who presumed the > dramatic tides rose with uniformity...and in acting on such presumption, > found themselves stranded or in significant danger. > This does not make for a "Killer Tide." > > Descriptive terms such as 'sneaker' and 'rogue' attribute human > characteristics to naturally occurring events. > Sorry. Nature doesn't sneak, nor is nature capable of 'going rogue'. > Nature is indifferent. > People can chase tornadoes. Tornadoes cannot 'chase' people. > > I find it interesting that ocean scientists are using the term, 'rogue > wave'. > It certainly sells their study much more effectively than "Anomalous Wave > Pattern Studies", > at least to the general public. Imagine meteorologists using the terms, > "Assassin Tornados." > > -Will *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Latitude 38, the SF Bay Sailing Magazine that goes wherever the wind blows, has had some interesting bits about the rouge wave notion in the past, so I thought I'd look them up. This one post is pretty much what they all say: We were hit by a rogue wave in the middle of the storm, which knocked us down and broke the rudder. I thought there had been more scientific coverage but apparently not. One of the more interesting, which does sound like what we describe as a rogue wave is here: http://www.latitude38.com/letters/200802.html scroll down to read the letter titled I COULD TASTE THE ADRENALIN IN MY MOUTH * * *and the next* IT SWEPT THEM OVERBOARD AND WAS GONE * * *This pretty much sums up the SF reporting, though there are many individual reports.* But, i have my own story! The day I had my surf zone class at Bolinas, Duxbury Reef had about 4' seas, excellent for learning. Nearing the end of the session, we were sitting out in the calm area behind the crashing surf discussing going over to the mouth of Bolinas Lagoon to check out the action there. Forgetting to heed the Hawaiian wisdom of never turning your back on the sea, I was facing the others, and the beach, when suddenly out of nowhere came a rogue wave that turned me over before I knew what was happening. I am sure if I had a rudder it would have broken, and I could sure taste the adrenaline. Miraculously, no one else was lost, a wet exit and an assisted rescue and we were on our way. and that's the way it was Mike San Rafael *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Check out this URL, the Eropean Space Agency site, for an article on "rogue waves" and a couple of pictures. Any wave that washes over the deck of a super tanker is "rogue" in my book and I wouldn't want to be anywhere near it. <http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEMOKQL26WD_index_0.html> Fair winds and happy bytes, Dave Flory, Flower Mound, TX, U.S.A. -- Speak softly, study Aikido, & you won't need to carry a big stick! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 3:04 PM, David Flory <daflory_at_verizon.net> wrote: > Check out this URL, the Eropean Space Agency site, for an article on "rogue > waves" and a couple of pictures. Any wave that washes over the deck of a > super tanker is "rogue" in my book and I wouldn't want to be anywhere near > it. > > <http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEMOKQL26WD_index_0.html> > > > Great article. Thanks for the posting. I had seen that opening photo before and thought that the wave was running counter to the prevailling sea; but its difficult to tell. As far as waves washing over a super tanker, that's a lot more common than you would think. Caveat: the following is a sea story.. it's true but just a story... My tanker - not a "supertanker" but still 700-feet long - had dropped off its pilot and was underway for San Francisco. The Captain and I were both on the bridge and it was about 9 or 10pm. Weather was not that good with wind speeds of 50kn from the south to southeast with 25ft seas but until we got out of Prince William Sound we reallly had no idea of what it was "outside". Two more fully-laden tankers were following us with an Arco ship right behind us. Prior to the Exxon Valdez incident once a tanker left Port Valdez it was not allowed to return. If the weather was too bad to leave the relatively protected waters of the Sound the routine was for the tanker to circle in a holding pattern around Prince William Sound. Now PWS is a pretty large place but 2 or 3 tankers going in circles in 50-kt winds can make it seem awfully small so it was routine for Captains to simply get out and deal with whatever was out there. This resulted in some terrible damage to ships, loss of several crew members (including a Ch. Mate and a Bos'n one stormy night) and diversions of course amounting to a thousand miles. No one wanted to risk a collision between laden supertankers inside the waters of PWS. I expect that this weighed heavily on the mind of the Captain as we approached Cape Hinchinbrooke. At this point we would have to make a 30-degree turn to port for a course to San Francisco and since that was the direction from which the wind was blowing and the seas were traveling we weren't sure we could make that turn. Sure enough... when the time came we put the helm hard over to port and could not get the ship to turn. So the Captain decided to do a maneuver called "wearing ship" in which you go around in a full circle in the other direction to build momentum in the turn and come out on course. This worked but it was a nasty turn because for some portion we were in the trough of the waves. And remember that two more tankers were right behind us. Also remember that this was all done in complete darkness. When we finally got onto course we were not going very fast and it was nasty rough. The Captain looked over at me (both of us were standing together on the port side of the helmsman's position but forward against the windows) and wondered out loud to me what it looked like out there and walked back to turn on the king post lights to illuminate the deck. This particular tanker had a raised bow then a lower deck running aft to where the quarters and the bridge were. Two large towers were located along the centerline of the deck and these had huge lights which would light up the entire ship. When these lights came on all we could see were the lights themselves and the forward raised bow structure. Everything else was white water with waves washing over us on a regular basis. This sight, along with the shuddering and shaking of the ship as it pounded into the head sea, was somewhat disturbing and the Captain turned off the lights and said to me, "I think we'll go back." We told the following ships - neither of which had managed to get as far as Cape Hinchinbrooke yet - of our intention to return to PWS because conditions outside were too risky. Both Captains agreed that they, too, would stay inside the Sound. At this point Port Valdez came on to inform us that we all had been cleared to return inside the Port to tie up to the docks and wait for the storm to abate. I was stunned. I had made a lot of trips in and out of the Sound and had spent time at anchor (empty) and time in that "holding pattern" but I had never heard of any fully loaded tanker being allowed back into Port Valdez; much less three of them. So we all picked up pilots at the Narrows and returned to the Port to spend a relatively peaceful night tied up to the facilities docks. Within 16 hours the storm had passed, we had daylight, and we all left for a routine trip down the coast. I've always suspected that the Port authorities were not comfortable with three supertankers going around in circles inside PWS; especially in light of the Exxon Valdez incident which had been only a short time before. (I believe that the Valdez was still stuck on Bligh Reef at the time but I'm not sure; these trips do tend to blur together after a few years.) Just imagine the damage if two of those tankers collided or even if one of them lost power inside the Sound. I don't know for sure, but I also suspect that Alyeska (operators of the oil facilities) may have picked up the pilotage fees for the return and subsequent second departure of these tankers. They were already in significant trouble over not maintaining oil-spill recovery equipment (it had been moved to Seattle) as required by their contract with the State of Alaska. It seems common sense to bring the tankers back but you have to understand that moving ships into and out of Port Valdez is not a simple matter. The entrance - the Narrows - have some significant current (with a speed limit of 6 kn for tankers) and then one has to have tugs, line handlers, etc. all available on the docks. But the Exxon Valdez changed all that... at least for a while. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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