I have used long (9 ft) paddles for more than 25 years. In my opinion, the southwest Greenland Inuit paddlers are able to use short paddles because of their skill at rolling. Absent that skill, they would be using long paddles (up to 10 ft) along with all of the other native paddlers of the eastern arctic. I believe this was a matter of doing what was necessary to survive in kayaks in the Arctic environment. Long paddles provide the bracing to stay upright even in rough water conditions and the leverage to control the boats in high winds and rough seas. Short paddles may be great for speed, but in current training little consideration is given to survival in extreme paddling conditions. I think that in several ways, the recent accident in Newfoundland is disturbingly similar to the accident a few years ago in Biddeford, Maine where two paddlers went out at dusk in smallcraft warning conditions, water temp ~ 44 F, victim wearing "shorty" wetsuit, both men unable to call for assistance. The paddler in a drysuit survived overnight on an island, the other was swept out to sea and died. Chuck Sutherland *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I disagree, Chuck. First, a standard-legth Greenland paddle is more versatile and permits a higher cadence than a 9- to 10-foot paddle. Especially when you use it with the sliding stroke, it is very easy to extend a standard paddle for a strong brace, effectively turning a 7-foot paddle into a 9- or 10-foot paddle. Compare Nanook's paddle stroke in "Nanook of the North" to that of the paddlers in the Amassilik district of Greenland in "Palo's Wedding." Nanook looks downright clumsy compared to the Greenlanders. And note that Amassilik is on the east coast of Greenland, not on the southwest coast. I think that paddles in both districts averaged about the same length. Second, most Greenlanders were not good rollers. IIRC, only about a quarter to a third of Greenland seal-catchers bothered to learn to roll, so rolling ability was probably not a factor in their choice of paddle length. Personally, I use about a 7-foot Greenland paddle for paddling and rolling. I've never felt the need for anything longer. "Palo's Wedding" which was filmed in 1931 by Knud Rasmussen, has many scenes that show the sliding stroke in action, and one that shows the paddle extended for a turn. Chuck Holst -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net] On Behalf Of skimmer Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2010 8:48 PM To: PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net Subject: [Paddlewise] storm seas long paddles staying upright I have used long (9 ft) paddles for more than 25 years. In my opinion, the southwest Greenland Inuit paddlers are able to use short paddles because of their skill at rolling. Absent that skill, they would be using long paddles (up to 10 ft) along with all of the other native paddlers of the eastern arctic. <snip> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5263 (20100708) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Chuck Holst wrote: >it is very easy to extend a standard paddle for a strong >brace, effectively turning a 7-foot paddle into a 9- or 10-foot paddle. Chuck Sutherland wrote: >Long paddles provide the bracing to stay upright >even in rough water conditions and the leverage to control the boats in high >winds and rough seas. >Short paddles may be great for speed, but in current training little >consideration is given to survival in extreme paddling conditions. G'day, Don't want to stop a good discussion, but maybe both opinions are valid? Anyway the following is sufficiently twisted that the debate has a fair chance to continue. I'd suggest that a long paddle and low angle stroke in the hands of a solidly built person, i.e. someone with plenty of muscle, fat, cartilage and bone, seems to be just as fast as the more classic high angle 'racing' stroke. Its also stable in the hands of a competent paddler in choppy conditions at sea. For some but not all people that solid build is associated with less flexibility and reduced torso rotation but their increased overall strength allows them to better withstand the higher levels of mechanical stress associated with less body rotation and longer paddles. On the other hand the high angle racing stroke with a short paddle is favoured by instructors over here and seems to work well for people who are less solidly built. Perhaps for some but not all this is associated with more flexibility, but a reduced ability to accommodate the stresses and load mismatch associated with the higher leverage that a longer paddle requires. Seems to me that the ability to manoeuvre a short paddle relatively quickly provides support and stability as effectively as the increased leverage supplied by a long paddle. Can't say I've ever noticed much difference in speed or stability on the sea between people with long paddles and low angle strokes vs. those with shorter paddles and high angle strokes. Stability in particular seems to come with confidence and skill as much as paddle length. Not familiar enough with flat water racing to say that the same applies there. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 6:44 AM, PeterO <rebyl_kayak_at_energysustained.com>wrote: > > Don't want to stop a good discussion, but maybe both opinions are valid? > Anyway the following is sufficiently twisted that the debate has a fair > chance to continue. > > LOL... well notwithstanding that last sentence, I tend to agree with PeterO; I can see a place in kayaking for a longer GP. Sea Kayaking has come a long way in the last decade alone. At one time GPs - any Greenland Paddle regardless of length - was denigrated by people who knew no better. The EP folks devised a test to prove that their paddle was better. Simply tie two kayaks together stern-to-stern, put a paddler with a GP into one cockpit and a paddler with an EP into the other cockpit and let them fight it out. The EP invariably won because this test favors that paddle. It was much harder to test the merits of the GP because its strength was in the long run. For a lot of paddlers (including me, I'm afraid) the EP was the only paddle worth considering. Until recently. So many really good sea kayakers are now using Greenland paddles that it's impossible now to claim that they are not as good. In fact I think that Greenland paddling and equipment might be (along with "playboating") one of the fastest growing aspects of the sport. It's certainly a fascinating aspect. I have in my possession a book published about 40 years ago that has several photos of Greenland kayaks and Inuits paddlilng in them. One of them clearly shows a line of kayaks tied stern-to-bow towing what appears to be a whale carcass. They are using paddles that must be over 9 feet long. Five Inuits towing a whale can't be all wrong!!! :P If it works, it works. I'm thinking that there is room for these in the sport. Peter's ideas about who might be better suited to a long GP (LGP) have merit, at least in my eyes. It would be very interesting to have a couple of Paddlewisers carve a 9-foot long GP and let us know what they think. Viva la change! Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Horses for courses ... or ... paddles for purposes. Designing anything is a compromise, thus different decisions yield different results. That kayak tug-o-war might show longer GPs to be "better" than shorter EPs. More HP put into the water more quickly. I know my GP is great in really shallow mud flats where I can slide it way out and have a good strong shallow stoke. Better than my EP in this case. Some work in rivers with moving water and strainers favors my EP if only because I can grab more water with a shallow vertical stroke. I can't take a wide shallow stroke because there are rocks and roots in the way. When I'm in a tricky situation like that I just pole along with my GP, being careful not to get it stuck in the roots or rock cracks. It's easier to extract the GP from the roots if it does go in that the EP, which can get trapped by the blade entering and turning a little in the roots. Think mangrove roots here. Since we are mainly paddling distances, where explosive power is rarely needed, it makes sense that a GP would be what we lean toward (once bias is placed aside.) Or a smaller blade EP, but the nice thing about the GP is you can vary the amount of paddle you are using at any one time. Carey *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Chuck, Where can one find "Palo's Wedding"? Brgds, Jeff --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Palo's Wedding" which was filmed in 1931 by Knud Rasmussen, has many scenes that show the sliding stroke in action, and one that shows the paddle extended for a turn. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 10:25 AM, Jeff Bingham <kayakjef_at_bellsouth.net>wrote: > > Where can one find "Palo's Wedding"? > > "The Wedding of Palo" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0024203/) supposedly available from a museum somewhere for EU$30. I really didn't do much of a search. Craig *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I found my copy on the Web several years ago, so I suggest a Google search for either "Palo's Wedding" or "The Wedding of Palo." When I got mine it was available only on videocassette. I actually have two copies. The one I have had longest has Danish subtitles, and is called "Palos Bruedefaerd," or close to that -- I think some of the characters have diacritical marks, but neither of my copies is accessible right now. I think there are one or two scenes in the Danish version that are missing in the English version. I would like to see a restored copy. BTW, "Palo's Wedding" was filmed the same year the second British Arctic Air Route Expedition was in Greenland, and one of two women in a photo in Chapman's "Watkin's Last Expedition" was the heroine of the film. Chuck Holst -----Original Message----- Chuck, Where can one find "Palo's Wedding"? Brgds, Jeff __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5266 (20100709) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Chuck Sutherland wrote: >>>>I have used long (9 ft) paddles for more than 25 years. In my opinion, the southwest Greenland Inuit paddlers are able to use short paddles because of their skill at rolling. Absent that skill, they would be using long paddles (up to 10 ft) along with all of the other native paddlers of the eastern arctic. I believe this was a matter of doing what was necessary to survive in kayaks in the Arctic environment. Long paddles provide the bracing to stay upright even in rough water conditions and the leverage to control the boats in high winds and rough seas. Short paddles may be great for speed, but in current training little consideration is given to survival in extreme paddling conditions.<<<<<< If that is the case, then why are the Greenland "Storm" paddles so short? Do they call them "Storm' paddles for some reason I don't understand? I've written on this subject before so I hoped I could just go find them in my files and save me a lot of typing and remembering. However, Bill Gates has made that hard by making Windows Vista not be able to open older MS Word files. This has frustrated me several times before but I've not found a fix. The reason given in the error message is that it is not supported by my "registry policy setting". Can anyone explain this to me and let me know if there is a fix (and what the downside to using that fix might be)? Here is a condensed version from the "paddles" section of our website: "Length is the major determiner of a paddle's "gear ratio." We prefer shorter blades so we can paddle in a lower gear (shorter paddle) and still have enough shaft length between the blades to clear the kayak's deck and completely bury the blade during the stroke. The longer shaft between the blades that results from shorter blades allows more room to move our hands around to widen the grip (this lowers your "gear" to accelerate or for stiff head winds). More shaft also allows extending the paddle to one side for greater turning leverage. This is especially nice in strong winds. A shorter length lowers the swing weight and shortens the lever arm a strong wind can act upon. Having your hand closer to the blade also gives you better control of the blade in the water." I found long paddles to be more awkward and more subject to the wind and water turbulence. The long paddle stroke is either more off center (more turning component) or too deep underwater to be quickly returned to the surface (such as to make a quick brace). It also makes it much more difficult to paddle in tight areas such as sea caves and rock gardens. My biggest objection to longer paddles is that they feel to me that I'm going up a hill in high gear on a bicycle and I end up slowing down to relieve the undue strain on my muscles. The argument that it makes turning in high winds better doesn't stand up because one can shift the shorter paddle to one side to get that benefit and at the same time reduce the exposure of the upper blade to the high wind. I have no trouble using a short wide blade at a low angle to the water in a Greenland style stroke (even feathered). I like that low elbows at the side body rotation stroke as an alternative to the high Euro stroke. I find it very efficient and nearly as fast, but I don't have to give up the solid braces and acceleration (and lower flutter rate and my hand warming drip rings) that the Euro paddle provides to enjoy the benefits of the low stroke. The only advantage I've seen to paddles longer than 220cm (for paddling most single kayaks) is in large steep clapotis conditions off of sea cliffs when the steep amplified standing waves create a much greater risk of the shorter paddler experiencing an inadvertent "air" stroke. In that condition I have learned to make sure my paddle blade is well buried before taking a real hard stroke with it. And I know to paddle somewhat farther from shore where the wave amplitude is somewhat reduced as well. Once strong wind is introduced into this super steep random seas equation though, I'd go with the shorter paddle (with shorter blades) any day. Many years ago we had a custom paddle made by Lightning Paddles for Chuck that was something like 9' long (275cm). Are you still using that short bladed Euro style paddle Chuck? Do I recall something about the ACA getting on your case for advocating long paddles? ------------------------------ I agree with most of what Carey Parks speculated upon and wrote except for the following two points: >>>>....That kayak tug-o-war might show longer GPs to be "better" than shorter EPs. More HP put into the water more quickly.<<<<<< I'm almost certain you will find just the opposite. Everything else being equal the lower gear and faster stroke rate will win the tug of war every time. This was demonstrated in the test tank at the Outdoor Retailer show in Salt Lake City several years ago. Greg Barton was essentially "sucker punched" by the Hobie companies pedal boat ringer into having a tug of war in the test tank. The Hobie flipper powered craft won and (I'm sure as planned) used that fact in their advertising. I'm sure Greg knew he could blow any flipper powered boat away in top speed, but the catch for Greg was that those little fast moving flippers were more efficient at a standstill than a big wing paddle blade was and in the space between strokes Greg lost a little "ground" each time his paddle was out of the water while the Hobie was under more constant power and took advantage of those power gaps. A year later, and somewhat wiser for Greg's experience, Greg's much heavier business partner, and surf ski champion, Oscar Chalupski took up the challenge. The Hobie ringer that year pedaled furiously and had almost dragged Oscar to defeat when he ran out of steam and Oscar worked him back to eventually win the tug-of-war. Having to accelerate Oscar's much greater mass between his mighty strokes might well have been what had made the difference that time. The bottom line is: how well a paddle works at zero speed is pretty unimportant anywhere but at the start of a sprint race or when trying to accelerate quickly to catch a wave so a tug of war result is pretty meaningless to most paddling. >>>>>>Since we are mainly paddling distances, where explosive power is rarely needed, it makes sense that a GP would be what we lean toward (once bias is placed aside.) Or a smaller blade EP, but the nice thing about the GP is you can vary the amount of paddle you are using at any one time.<<<<<< Just because the Euro doesn't have a known advantage there doesn't mean it is at any disadvantage, so this will make no "sense' to me until you tell me the disadvantages or advantages of one over the other. I don't see the advantage of varying the amount of the paddle blade that you use. Also, I don't see why you couldn't do that with a partly submerged Euro as well. The disadvantage of partially immersing either paddle is "ventilation". Air being sucked down in front of the blade (behind the power face) from the surface reduces the grip the paddle has on the water. The Greenland paddle suffers from this constantly the Euro only seriously when the blade is not fully immersed. This is one of the reasons the Greenland paddle doesn't accelerate the kayak as well as a Euro when you power it hard. You also don't state any advantage to using only part of your blade. If you mean it is to vary your power applied or energy expended or to reduce stress on your muscles or joints, there are other easier ways to do that than varying the amount of blade immersion you use. Two are: 1) don't paddle as hard and 2) shift your grip further apart on the shaft to down shift to a lower gear. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). 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Carey got it right, I think. Racing performance, or battling with waves and head winds, result in different paddling strategies, suiting different types of paddles: The EP can give maximum power during a shorter period of time, say a 1,000 meters race, while the GP suits others, especially those who want to keep paddling for hours and hours without injuries. Tord Carey wisely wrote: Since we are mainly paddling distances, where explosive power is rarely needed, it makes sense that a GP would be what we lean toward (once bias is placed aside.) Or a smaller blade EP, but the nice thing about the GP is you can vary the amount of paddle you are using at any one time. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
You like what you like. That works great for me. Even better, what you do in a kayak and where you go in a kayak, it works great for you. I'm pleased to go to interesting places in a kayak with people who've worked things out for themselves.That said, *reactive paddling*, meaning, relying on bracing and paddle length is challenged by newer currency in paddling styles. Enter confessions of a middle aged kayaker who learned by the reactive paddling style and had to unlearn that and learn the newer dynamic stability style of paddling. In reality, your best brace is a forward stroke. I still catch myself bracing when I should be forward paddling. It doesn't matter if it is the river or the sea catching up to you, when you are having control and stability issues, the last thing you want this side of upside down, is to let the water catch up to you and control you, with all it's whirlies, boils, eddy lines-fences, clapotis and diagonal waves. The next to the last thing I want is a lever that is so long it takes forever to input on one side, withdraw and put it into the other.. Dynamic stability is a multi point solution that requires blade pressure, your lower body tension, posture and the control surfaces of your hull to create true stability in dynamic environments. This isn't just a whitewater concept, though that is where I learned it. The problem with the sea is that the bad sea state goes on all day. In a river, you can find an eddy and hopefully the bank. In either case. I don't want too long a lever mucking up the other aspects to my dynamic stability, lower body tension and using the edges of my boat properly in the water. It's just not all about the paddle. Cheers, Rob G --- From: skimmer <skimmer_at_enter.net> Subject: [Paddlewise] storm seas long paddles staying upright I have used long (9 ft) paddles for more than 25 years. In my opinion, the southwest Greenland Inuit paddlers are able to use short paddles because of their skill at rolling. Absent that skill, they would be using long paddles (up to 10 ft) along with all of the other native paddlers of the eastern arctic. I believe this was a matter of doing what was necessary to survive in kayaks in the Arctic environment. Long paddles provide the bracing to stay upright even in rough water conditions and the leverage to control the boats in high winds and rough seas. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rob wrote: In reality, your best brace is a forward stroke. I still catch myself bracing when I should be forward paddling. A good demonstration of this (which I learned years ago on Paddlewise) is to hold your paddle so the blades are feathered from their usual position. That is, when you take a stroke your blades will slice through the water and not grab the water. Now close your eyes and paddle 'normally.' Did you tip over? Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rob said: > I'm pleased to go to interesting places ... with people who've > worked things out for themselves Rob - I like what you are describing in the way of body movement and hull positioning to counter the water's attempts to upset you. I completely agree that these skills are key to enjoying a right-way-up experience. I do believe they are still 'reactive' skills - just faster & perhaps with less conscious thought, due to honing them. I haven't had much white-water experience, but I can recommend the alternative of learning to paddle a really skinny boat in progressively rougher conditions. I enjoy my Mystery (Nick Schade's racing/training design) and it has dramatically improved my balance. Now, after a few years of 'higher education' in the Mystery, when I get into my touring kayak, I can sit and take pictures in water that would once have had my knuckles whitening ;-) There are also days - in either boat - when no pictures get taken and both hands need to stay on the paddle. Those are fun days too - over the edge of my comfort zone and into the zone when the wind & water can overwhelm my skills and force me to save my skin with a brace or two. Best Regards Paul Hayward, Auckland, New Zealand (Temporarily in Alaska) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The Mystery looks like a beautiful boat. I will get a go fast boat one of these days. I appreciate the learning curve of real world balance skills they provide, in addition to actually going fast in a sea kayak. I know the wing paddles are also a part of the solution for that, but I have very little experience with that. By the way, the other day I dropped into a rapid the other day, didn't account for a funny little current that took me by surprise dropped me like rock, a big ol' beaver slap later and I was up looking for the exit signs. I said to myself, ya Rob, you never brace or get too reactive, proactive all the way for you! I thought of this discussion and had to laugh. Cheers, Rob G -----Original Message----- From: Paul Hayward <pdh_at_mmcl.co.nz> To: rcgibbert_at_aol.com; skimmer_at_enter.net; PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net Sent: Tue, Jul 20, 2010 6:21 pm Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] storm seas long paddles staying upright Rob said: > I'm pleased to go to interesting places ... with people who've > worked things out for themselves Rob - I like what you are describing in the way of body movement and hull positioning to counter the water's attempts to upset you. I completely agree that these skills are key to enjoying a right-way-up experience. I do believe they are still 'reactive' skills - just faster & perhaps with less conscious thought, due to honing them. I haven't had much white-water experience, but I can recommend the alternative of learning to paddle a really skinny boat in progressively rougher conditions. I enjoy my Mystery (Nick Schade's racing/training design) and it has dramatically improved my balance. Now, after a few years of 'higher education' in the Mystery, when I get into my touring kayak, I can sit and take pictures in water that would once have had my knuckles whitening ;-) There are also days - in either boat - when no pictures get taken and both hands need to stay on the paddle. Those are fun days too - over the edge of my comfort zone and into the zone when the wind & water can overwhelm my skills and force me to save my skin with a brace or two. Best Regards Paul Hayward, Auckland, New Zealand (Temporarily in Alaska) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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