Dear all, acknowledgement is the engine that fuels the efforts. So I thank You all for your response to this sad accident that worries me much. Bear with me for my poor proofreading. I'm not that good and eloquent in English. The accident has now left the front pages and actual information is becoming sparse. Next to nothing is being told about the victims now and it seems obvious that all involved, victims as well as their families need peace and quiet. 6 pupils are now back on the school. One of these victim - the unconscious girl on the ice-slab - is getting penicillin treatment for damages and has apparently had a severe psychological breakdown, which emphasises the victims need to get out of public focus. Another victim was Friday - one week after the accident - brought back into respirator because of a similar problem. None of the teenagers that were in coma are back to school and there is no information about them. It's expected some of them - maybe all - will need a long-term recovery treatment because of possible brain damages. The most responsible person, a 44-year old teacher, who was married and had 2 sons, is the only one disappeared and dead until now. Some rumours tell that he had no pfd. Other rumours tell that he was last seen giving his pfd to a girl that (confirmed!) was not an able swimmer. That girl became one of the 2 girls and 5 boys in coma. No other persons were lost at sea. No information has been given about the surviving other adult, a 33-year old female teacher. The head master has only stated that she had felt completely comfortable with the situation before sailing out. "Soefartsstyrelsen" (the "Danish Maritime Authority" ( http://www.dma.dk/Sider/Home.aspx )) has an investigative unit ("opklaringsenhed") and they have now together with the police told the public to be patient. It will take several months before the investigations are finished and a conclusion made public. "We do not deal in rumours or guesswork. The investigation will be based on facts". They obviously intent is to be very thorough about the seaworthiness of the canoe. A reconstruction may be made. Based on previous experience I fear that seamanship and understanding in the context of our way of kayaking and canoeing may be dealt with without real insight. I fully share Tony's worries. There has already been remarks from the opposition in the Danish Parliament about specifications for PFDs and the government is of course also concerned. I'm a board member of a nation-wide kayaking club and I have put the question on the agenda for the next meeting by the end of this month. That will hardly change anything. I have looked into the question about the size of the dragon boat. Another source reports the length to be eight meters which is more realistic. Here is another picture of the boat: http://www.bt.dk/krimi/dragebaads-formand-det-er-dybt-uansvarligt According to present information the canoe is designed for 14 persons. Danish regulations is quoted to have a security limit at 12 persons when sailing with passengers. But what then? Anyway 14 is less than the 15 aboard. It's a question about regulations for passengers versus education versus ... and I have no knowledge about those aspects. A series of pictures that illustrates the environment can be seen at http://www.sn.dk/Se-billeder-fra-redningsaktion/Vordingborg/artikel/112394?im age=1#image (used the numbers under the top image to see all pictures.) About the resources used for the rescue operation: The boat capsizes at about 11:30 Emergency call is registered 12:43 SAR units are alerted 12:47 - 12:50 Initially the alarm reported a drowning accident and some information indicated an accident with a bus in a lake. A medical helicopter (the red and yellow helicopter on the pictures) were sent from Copenhagen with a senior doctor with high expertise. As he arrived he learned that 2 were under treatment and more might be in the sea. He then alerted the Danish Operation Center, SOK, and "sat down" to coordinate the efforts in the area. Two of the air force's large SAR helicopters staffed with doctors and with FLIR - heat detection - were summoned immediately and 3 emergency cars staffed with doctors were called. 12 ambulances were directed to the scene and small rescue vessels (zodiacs and small boats) were brought in by road. The boats arrived within half an hour. One rescue vessel was already stationed in the area. 6 vessels and - very soon - 4 SAR helicopters were searching the area. The helicopters and the emergency cars were equipped with altogether 5 CPR-machines which were used from the moment the unconscious victims came on land and until they were delivered by helicopter to intensive care units in hospitals. This made it possible to intubate the unconscious victims as soon as they were found. Ambulances brought the others to local hospitals Five hospitals were alerted and supplemental medical specialist staff (a 57 years old senior specialist) from the air force medical corps was within 15 minutes from the alert brought by ambulance and the SAR helicopter across the country heading for the accident. As backup - he tells - was a hospital in L|beck, Germany, that could send further 2 helicopters with heart-lung machines. Two more university hospitals in Denmark could assist if more than 12 victims showed up but that would need more helicopters. He was himself bringing a mobile lung-heart machine with him and used it at a local hospital before he followed the victim to another university hospital in Jutland. One more specialist hypothermia team was all the time on standby but would for transport have needed one of the helicopters that was used for searching No doubt that the very qualified performance of the arriving senior doctor and the resolute and comprehensive decisions made by the organisation (Air force and Marine JRCC, Joint Rescue Coordination Center) are the only reasons a completely disastrous outcome was avoided in spite of complete confusion in the initial phase. The operation already counts as the most successful and professional ever in Denmark which says a lot. It's also told that the needed knowledge and expertise did not exist just ten years ago. The fantastic background is research where the researcher, a doctor Benedict Kjaergaard from Aalborg Hospital in Northern Jutland, have had pigs kept at low temperatures while they flew around with them in the SAR helicopters and held them attached to mobile heart-lung machines to simulate situations like the one that now has taken place. This has been the foundation for the hypothermia specialist team. regards from Jens Viggo *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Jens, As I mentioned the other day, what an outstanding job by all involved in the rescue of the paddlers, including the clear thinking and actions of the paddlers themselves. Down the road, as more information becomes available, I believe this case needs to be written in the greatest possible detail. It has always been the case for me in writing accident reports, that the best time but most utterly difficult time to collect information on any accident is immediately after it happens. I have sometimes met with extremely hostile reactions in some cases. It goes with the territory. I quit working with a club because of the stunningly hateful responses from one or two of their members. With time after cases are past, memories become fuzzy and questions that should have been answered when folks had the information, slip into the dark as unknowns. I believe the level of skill and teamwork of the responders in this case would not even today be found here in the US. They may be good here, but not as good! When the case is fully documented, I believe it will be studied for years to come. Thanks again for your determined hard work. Chuck Sutherland -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net] On Behalf Of Jens Viggo Moesmand Sent: Monday, February 21, 2011 12:25 PM To: paddlewise Subject: [Paddlewise] Danish dragon boat, some answers Dear all, acknowledgement is the engine that fuels the efforts. So I thank You all for your response to this sad accident that worries me much. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hello I used to be involved in investigating kayak accidents with the British Army and although not involved in such for 20 years now, am still interested in investigations and reports and findings. One of the saddest things was the blind trust placed by novices in their instructors and leaders. In this case, I know little enough of the background information but am hoping to learn more as time goes by. I do hope the findings will be made public in the fulness of time. I have contacted the rescue coordinating authorities in Denmark to make them aware that a paper on cold water immersion was published by the German Canoe Federation last December and that I would send this to them if they wished. I also said that the canoeing authorities should be drawn into the enquiry at an early stage to ensure that the findings reflect the needs of paddlers and are not drawn up without such consultation. I hope this is taken on board. Kind regards Tony -----UrsprC<ngliche Nachricht----- Von: skimmer <skimmer_at_enter.net> Gesendet: 22-Feb-2011 03:57:11 An: "'Jens Viggo Moesmand'" <jensviggo_at_moesmand.dk>, paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net, "'Greg Welker'" <gdwelker_at_verizon.net> Betreff: RE: [Paddlewise] Danish dragon boat, some answers Hi Jens, As I mentioned the other day, what an outstanding job by all involved in the rescue of the paddlers, including the clear thinking and actions of the paddlers themselves. Down the road, as more information becomes available, I believe this case needs to be written in the greatest possible detail. It has always been the case for me in writing accident reports, that the best time but most utterly difficult time to collect information on any accident is immediately after it happens. I have sometimes met with extremely hostile reactions in some cases. It goes with the territory. I quit working with a club because of the stunningly hateful responses from one or two of their members. With time after cases are past, memories become fuzzy and questions that should have been answered when folks had the information, slip into the dark as unknowns. I believe the level of skill and teamwork of the responders in this case would not even today be found here in the US. They may be good here, but not as good! When the case is fully documented, I believe it will be studied for years to come. Thanks again for your determined hard work. Chuck Sutherland -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net] On Behalf Of Jens Viggo Moesmand Sent: Monday, February 21, 2011 12:25 PM To: paddlewise Subject: [Paddlewise] Danish dragon boat, some answers Dear all, acknowledgement is the engine that fuels the efforts. So I thank You all for your response to this sad accident that worries me much. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Tony Ford wrote: >Hello >I used to be involved in investigating kayak accidents with the British Army and although not involved in such for 20 years now, am still interested in investigations and reports and findings. One of the saddest things was the blind trust placed by novices in their instructors and leaders. > What's is further sad is the blind trust that uninformed and untrained "leaders" put in *themselves* that cause them to think they can lead a novice group in such conditions or where there is the risk of such conditions. Sometimes, lack of critical thinking seems rampant out there. > I also said that the canoeing authorities should be drawn into the enquiry at an early stage to ensure that the findings reflect the needs of paddlers and are not drawn up without such consultation. I hope this is taken on board. >Kind regards >Tony > I hope they take your advice. Please keep us posted on the outcome. Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Feb 22, 2011, at 3:35 PM, Jackie Myers wrote: > Tony Ford wrote: > >> Hello >> I used to be involved in investigating kayak accidents with the British Army and although not involved in such for 20 years now, am still interested in investigations and reports and findings. One of the saddest things was the blind trust placed by novices in their instructors and leaders. > > What's is further sad is the blind trust that uninformed and untrained "leaders" put in *themselves* that cause them to think they can lead a novice group in such conditions or where there is the risk of such conditions. Sometimes, lack of critical thinking seems rampant out there. It should also remind us how we put a lot of faith in our own abilities to keep us safe each time we go out. I don't think I am alone in realizing that I have taken severe risks in my boating career without realizing it. It is often only after taking one of these risks that we have enough experience to know that it was a bad idea to begin with. The difference between this tragedy and a worthy adventure is razor thin. It is sad that one instructor sacrificed his life in this experience and several of his charges may suffer after effects for years, but none of us are in a position to cast the first stone. Nick Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 54 South Rd Groton, CT 06340 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This incident serves to remind many of us that, but for a small bit of luck, we could have been in a similar situation, only help would not have been nearby. Bradford R. Crain Quoting Nick Schade <nick_at_guillemot-kayaks.com>: > On Feb 22, 2011, at 3:35 PM, Jackie Myers wrote: > >> Tony Ford wrote: >> >>> Hello >>> I used to be involved in investigating kayak accidents with the >>> British Army and although not involved in such for 20 years now, >>> am still interested in investigations and reports and findings. >>> One of the saddest things was the blind trust placed by novices in >>> their instructors and leaders. >> >> What's is further sad is the blind trust that uninformed and >> untrained "leaders" put in *themselves* that cause them to think >> they can lead a novice group in such conditions or where there is >> the risk of such conditions. Sometimes, lack of critical thinking >> seems rampant out there. > > > It should also remind us how we put a lot of faith in our own > abilities to keep us safe each time we go out. I don't think I am > alone in realizing that I have taken severe risks in my boating > career without realizing it. It is often only after taking one of > these risks that we have enough experience to know that it was a bad > idea to begin with. > > The difference between this tragedy and a worthy adventure is razor > thin. It is sad that one instructor sacrificed his life in this > experience and several of his charges may suffer after effects for > years, but none of us are in a position to cast the first stone. > Nick > > > Nick Schade > > Guillemot Kayaks > 54 South Rd > Groton, CT 06340 > USA > Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 > http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nick, I'm not really sure what you mean by not "casting the first stone". One of the major objectives of the Paddlewise list has always been paddling wisely! Thus the very name of this list. Part of paddling wisely is discovering what isn't wise. That means that sometimes we need be able to analyze situations, find mistakes, and point them out. I don't quite know what you meant, but it doesn't sound right to me. I do agree that we all make mistakes sometimes, and sometimes seriously, but we cannot let that keep us from discussing - and even condemning - unwise paddling! That, too, would be unwise. Bob Myers On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 3:01 PM, Nick Schade <nick_at_guillemot-kayaks.com> wrote: > > It should also remind us how we put a lot of faith in our own abilities to keep us safe each time we go out. I don't think I am alone in realizing that I have taken severe risks in my boating career without realizing it. It is often only after taking one of these risks that we have enough experience to know that it was a bad idea to begin with. > > The difference between this tragedy and a worthy adventure is razor thin. It is sad that one instructor sacrificed his life in this experience and several of his charges may suffer after effects for years, but none of us are in a position to cast the first stone. > Nick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Maybe Nick just meant in general. But due to an historical context, casting stones is typically associated with being hypocritically culpable of course and while I understand what Nick is getting at, I don't see the hypocrisy here on the list. I do see some pretty big magnifying glasses coming out which is perfectly understandable when there's a tragedy of this magnitude where trust is element and has been broken. Exemplary leadership is something on the decline these days. Just look around or listen to the news. Doug Bob said: Nick, I'm not really sure what you mean by not "casting the first stone". One of the major objectives of the Paddlewise list has always been paddling wisely! Thus the very name of this list. Part of paddling wisely is discovering what isn't wise. That means that sometimes we need be able to analyze situations, find mistakes, and point them out. I don't quite know what you meant, but it doesn't sound right to me. I do agree that we all make mistakes sometimes, and sometimes seriously, but we cannot let that keep us from discussing - and even condemning - unwise paddling! That, too, would be unwise. Bob Myers On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 3:01 PM, Nick Schade <nick_at_guillemot-kayaks.com> wrote: > > It should also remind us how we put a lot of faith in our own abilities to keep us safe each time we go out. I don't think I am alone in realizing that I have taken severe risks in my boating career without realizing it. It is often only after taking one of these risks that we have enough experience to know that it was a bad idea to begin with. > > The difference between this tragedy and a worthy adventure is razor thin. It is sad that one instructor sacrificed his life in this experience and several of his charges may suffer after effects for years, but none of us are in a position to cast the first stone. > Nick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The leader in the dragon boat appears to have given up his PFD and thus his life in an effort to save his charges. To me, this indicates that the students were well served by trusting his leadership. Do we have any indications that the teacher/coaches took this adventure lightly? Obviously they did not take it seriously enough, but that is almost always the case when bad stuff happens. With a little more regard for dangers most accidents would not happen. With a little more regard for dangers most of us would not enjoy kayaking as much as we do. Analyzing the Danish incident is good, but after a point there is no more to be gained by identifying specific actions that others did wrong. It is easy to say "I don't do that" I'll be safe. Eventually, we need to turn it around and look at ourselves. I have been in situations where I had to work very hard to keep on this side of a disaster. Sadly for the Danish dragon boat crew, their efforts were not sufficient. They could have had dry/wet suits on but where is John Winters to talk about risk homeostasis when you need him. I honestly don't know what lessons can really be drawn from this discussion. We are human, we like to push the boundaries, sometimes the boundaries push back, sometimes they give way. We can step back from the boundaries or move past them. Some of the Danish students may never get in a boat again others will gain strength from their experience to go on to do riskier things. Identifying one set of boundaries may just mean we push against others that we don't recognize. So, my question is: How do we take the Danish incident and learn to paddle safely? On Feb 23, 2011, at 1:10 AM, Doug Lloyd wrote: > Maybe Nick just meant in general. But due to an historical context, casting > stones is typically associated with being hypocritically culpable of course > and while I understand what Nick is getting at, I don't see the hypocrisy > here on the list. I do see some pretty big magnifying glasses coming out > which is perfectly understandable when there's a tragedy of this magnitude > where trust is element and has been broken. > > Exemplary leadership is something on the decline these days. Just look > around or listen to the news. > > Doug Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 54 South Rd Groton, CT 06340 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nick Schade wrote: >The leader in the dragon boat appears to have given up his PFD and thus his life in an effort to save his charges. To me, this indicates that the students were well served by trusting his leadership. Do we have any indications that the teacher/coaches took this adventure lightly? Obviously they did not take it seriously enough, but that is almost always the case when bad stuff happens. With a little more regard for dangers most accidents would not happen. With a little more regard for dangers most of us would not enjoy kayaking as much as we do. > > Imo, this discussion wasn't about a "little more regard for dangers." Your response came on comments made not about specific actions of this event but on the comments made by myself and Tony regarding blind trust placed by novices in their instructors and leaders as well as about unqualified, overconfident "trip leaders" who think they are qualified to lead a novice group into such conditions. PaddleWise was established to be able to discuss these situations where hopefully paddlers can learn from them. And for anyone who may have missed the specific actions, this is what I got from the information reported here about this incident.... Two teachers with thirteen students were out to attempt "to set a new record," in heavy seas, "ice slabs floating freely" on the surface, water temps less than 36 degrees F, gusting wind, heavy seas, no wet suits or dry suits - apparently no means for signaling emergency - rescue coming in the form of a female student who somehow, after capsizing, managed to fight her way 500 meters against "heavy seas," fortunately reach shore and then run 1 km to a store to raise the alarm (contact SAR). When I see this, I think safety was not a primary consideration. I don't even think it was secondary. In the case of instructors with students, my opinion is that safety should be the primary consideration, ahead of setting any new records. As for giving up a pfd to a student who was in trouble, I would imagine the parents of that student would say that was the least the teacher could have done in a deadly situation. I'm sorry it cost him his life. Even sorrier that someone didn't look at the situation beforehand and say "let's go for the record another day." I would like for paddlers to take from this the strength to say "no, I don't like the looks of this and you can call me chicken, but I'm not going." Trip leaders need to be honest in evaluating their abilities in the given situation. If he/she takes a group of students into the above conditions (as I read from the reports), they need to re-evaluate their leadership skills. If they survive. Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Trip leaders need to be honest in evaluating their abilities in the given >situation. If he/she takes a group of students into the above >conditions (as I read from the reports), they need to re-evaluate their >leadership skills. If they survive. >Jackie As for me Jackie sums it up sufficiently. I'm not in a position to or want to blame anyone. I leave the blaming and decisions about legal responsibility to the authorities. I very much appreciate Tony's initiative feeding the authorities' investigation team with relevant background information. I'm out of supplemental information now that the accident has become "history". Basically there is little new to learn about sailing from the accident. It's the consequences that talk. I'll take my time and wait for the conclusions. In due time I shall - if needed - translate and in this forum publish the outcomes. Likewise I shall inform about the fate of the teenagers recovery from coma when it is known. They have now been brought to a rehabilitation centre and only time will show the outcome. The blaming game has only just started and I do not intend to participate in more public forums than those for active kayakers. Nevertheless I'm an instructor and leader of tours in our environment bringing adults and children, skilled as well as newbie's, out on the very same sea and I must have an opinion about what is understandable and responsible in my own waters. It goes with the office. With other words: would I "forbid" a specific activity in my own area of responsibility. In my club a peer-to-peer review in our board is used before giving "authorization" to leaders. >From the available and confirmed facts 1) about the clothing, 2) lack of attention to weather forecast in a freezing environment. It counts that very qualified 48 hours weather forecasts with detailed information about wind and waves (boelgehoejde) are easily available, look e.g. at http://ifm.frv.dk/index.asp?USER=PLEASURE 3) complete lack of any thinkable precaution I find the involved teachers unfit to be responsible for arranging anything on the water which assumes "In Loco Parentis". To me the real responsibility lies with the headmaster and the schools board. Jens Viggo *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
General information. This link to google shows the location of the accident. As can be seen, the "fjord" is more like a lake. The actual path of the boat on the fatal day is not known with full certainty. Beginning from "Praestoe Havn" at bottom of the picture a course towards north is reported. A sailing distance of 1700 meters is reported and a distance of 500 meters from the shore towards the west is reported. The capsize can be related to moored buoys so eventually precise information about the swimming distances will be available. http://maps.google.dk/maps?hl=da&ie=UTF8&ll=55.137432,12.047024&spn=0.04 5137,0.132093&t=h&z=14 Jens Viggo *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thanks to Jens for keeping us informed. And to all others for their comments. Paddlewise is a great source of shared experience and knowledge. And to Mark and Craig for gratis entertainment. -- Bradford R. Crain Quoting Jens Viggo Moesmand <jensviggo_at_moesmand.dk>: >> Trip leaders need to be honest in evaluating their abilities in the > given >> situation. If he/she takes a group of students into the above >> conditions (as I read from the reports), they need to re-evaluate their >> leadership skills. If they survive. >> Jackie > > > > As for me Jackie sums it up sufficiently. I'm not in a position to or > want to blame anyone. I leave the blaming and decisions about legal > responsibility to the authorities. I very much appreciate Tony's > initiative feeding the authorities' investigation team with relevant > background information. I'm out of supplemental information now that the > accident has become "history". Basically there is little new to learn > about sailing from the accident. It's the consequences that talk. I'll > take my time and wait for the conclusions. In due time I shall - if > needed - translate and in this forum publish the outcomes. Likewise I > shall inform about the fate of the teenagers recovery from coma when it > is known. They have now been brought to a rehabilitation centre and only > time will show the outcome. > > The blaming game has only just started and I do not intend to > participate in more public forums than those for active kayakers. > > Nevertheless I'm an instructor and leader of tours in our environment > bringing adults and children, skilled as well as newbie's, out on the > very same sea and I must have an opinion about what is understandable > and responsible in my own waters. It goes with the office. With other > words: would I "forbid" a specific activity in my own area of > responsibility. In my club a peer-to-peer review in our board is used > before giving "authorization" to leaders. > > From the available and confirmed facts > > 1) about the clothing, > > 2) lack of attention to weather forecast in a freezing environment. It > counts that very qualified 48 hours weather forecasts with detailed > information about wind and waves (boelgehoejde) are easily available, > look e.g. at http://ifm.frv.dk/index.asp?USER=PLEASURE > > 3) complete lack of any thinkable precaution > > I find the involved teachers unfit to be responsible for arranging > anything on the water which assumes "In Loco Parentis". To me the real > responsibility lies with the headmaster and the schools board. > > Jens Viggo *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I don't see the benefit to anyone to be critical of a dead man. I know nothing about him, but I am sure he had no idea he was leading a potential death march. We can pin point all kinds of mistakes he made. And we can propose changes in law that may eliminate the potential of these particular mistakes. We can use his mistakes as object lessons for other leaders and be "sure" they never make those same mistakes. But there is something deep inside people that will ensure that other mistakes are made and other people die for other reasons. We can feel confident that we are wise enough to know that we will never make the mistakes made by this poor dead man, yet I am sure everyone of us makes decisions at least once every year that are similar in character but we have been lucky enough to avoid the same consequences. Some of us allow a less experienced kayakers come out with us when they probably shouldn't, just because we drove all the way to the put in and don't want to drive home without paddling and don't feel right about telling someone else to stay home when we want to go out. Some of us go for "short" hikes in the woods without spare cloths or any communications devices because we have gone for hundreds of hikes and nothing bad has ever happened and its just a short hike we don't need an annoying back pack. Some of us drive over the speed limit, because we were busy at home and left late and the kids need to get to their soccer game and we are safe drivers and have the driving record to prove it. Some of us go out for pizza on snowy slippery days because we don't feel like cooking, and we have 4-wheel-drive and anti-lock brakes and see our driving record above. Some of us go paddling even though our VHF battery is not fully charged because someone else must have a fully charge battery and the wind isn't that bad anyway. Some of us bring our neighbors kids sledding without helmets because we didn't wear helmets when we were kids and we survived and their mother didn't send helmets with them anyhow. Only you know the stupid things you do that could come back to bite you. Some of the things we do we don't even realize are stupid because, well, we are stupid. People are very good at rationalizing their need to get out there and set a new record in dragon boat. I have no idea what those reasons were in this particular case, but the drive to do so runs strong in humans. There is very little we can do to keep other people from creating that rationalization. I don't see much point in finding ways to keep other people from being stupid. I have enough trouble keeping myself from being stupid. So, the hard part of this kind of event is not coming up with lessons that others can use to protect themselves, the hard part is coming up with lessons we can use, knowing full well already that going out in a dragonboat with kids without immersion protection in nasty, cold weather is a bad idea. We know in detail the technical mistakes that were made in this case and are smug enough to feel we could teach the dead man something, yet we need to figure out a way that we don't make our own mistakes, yet still allow ourselves to have adventures and enjoy a sport that is risky every time we go out. Does anyone have any advice on how to overcome our own weaknesses? Nick On Feb 23, 2011, at 9:13 PM, Jackie Myers wrote: > Nick Schade wrote: > >> The leader in the dragon boat appears to have given up his PFD and thus his life in an effort to save his charges. To me, this indicates that the students were well served by trusting his leadership. Do we have any indications that the teacher/coaches took this adventure lightly? Obviously they did not take it seriously enough, but that is almost always the case when bad stuff happens. With a little more regard for dangers most accidents would not happen. With a little more regard for dangers most of us would not enjoy kayaking as much as we do. >> > > Imo, this discussion wasn't about a "little more regard for dangers." > > Your response came on comments made not about specific actions of this event but on the comments made by myself and Tony regarding blind trust placed by novices in their instructors and leaders as well as about unqualified, overconfident "trip leaders" who think they are qualified to lead a novice group into such conditions. > PaddleWise was established to be able to discuss these situations where hopefully paddlers can learn from them. > And for anyone who may have missed the specific actions, this is what I got from the information reported here about this incident.... > > Two teachers with thirteen students were out to attempt "to set a new record," in heavy seas, "ice slabs floating freely" on the surface, water temps less than 36 degrees F, gusting wind, heavy seas, no wet suits or dry suits - apparently no means for signaling emergency - rescue coming in the form of a female student who somehow, after capsizing, managed to fight her way 500 meters against "heavy seas," fortunately reach shore and then run 1 km to a store to raise the alarm (contact SAR). > > When I see this, I think safety was not a primary consideration. I don't even think it was secondary. In the case of instructors with students, my opinion is that safety should be the primary consideration, ahead of setting any new records. > As for giving up a pfd to a student who was in trouble, I would imagine the parents of that student would say that was the least the teacher could have done in a deadly situation. I'm sorry it cost him his life. Even sorrier that someone didn't look at the situation beforehand and say "let's go for the record another day." I would like for paddlers to take from this the strength to say "no, I don't like the looks of this and you can call me chicken, but I'm not going." Trip leaders need to be honest in evaluating their abilities in the given situation. If he/she takes a group of students into the above conditions (as I read from the reports), they need to re-evaluate their leadership skills. If they survive. > Jackie > > Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 54 South Rd Groton, CT 06340 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
How about good memory, a mirror and little bit of time? My 2 cents, Ari Finland On 24. helmikuuta 2011, at 19:10, Nick Schade wrote: > > > Does anyone have any advice on how to overcome our own weaknesses? > > Nick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Brad just had to add: Quoting Nick Schade <nick_at_guillemot-kayaks.com>: > I don't see the benefit to anyone to be critical of a dead man. You're not going to hurt his feelings. > Only you know the stupid things you do that could come back to bite > you. Some of the things we do we don't even realize are stupid > because, well, we are stupid. These comments are not at all stupid. > Does anyone have any advice on how to overcome our own weaknesses? We could stay locked up in our houses, and never risk anything. But that's not going to happen. A former President said you can't make the same mistake twice. But sometimes, you can't even make the mistake once. There's no reset button in real life. > Nick Schade > Guillemot Kayaks > 54 South Rd > Groton, CT 06340 > USA > Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 > http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Friday, 25 February 2011 06:10 Nick said: Does anyone have any advice on how to overcome our own weaknesses? Sorry Nick - I usually find myself agreeing with you - but not on this one. I reckon that the experience you can get from someone dead is just as valuable as that which you get from someone alive - positive or negative. The fact that they are dead may, or may not, give added gravitas to their actions or their 'good-practice'. I also firmly believe that my own skills and knowledge about the limits of risk and risk-mitigation have been defined, in significant part, by the experience of others. That's true professionally (as an engineer) and recreationally. Yes, I've done stupid things and will (hopefully) survive more; but I've also tried to observe and learn from others doing things 'stupid' or otherwise - that haven't turned out well. Or have turned out well - when they might have been labelled 'stupid' - because new experience indicates that the risk can be mitigated and enjoyed. May I give you a classic example - for me personally - that wraps all the above into practice: Andrew McAuley dying with a functional EPIRB attached to his kayak, rather than a PLB attached to his person. Leaving aside all other considerations of his life, death and motivations, etc - that is a lesson I have used to determine how I equipped myself when (for the first time) I chose recently to go and paddle isolated & cold waters outside VHF range. (And can we avoid - for the sake of this discussion - the self-sufficiency vs beacon argument. We did chose to be as very self-reliant as we could be on that trip - it is our goal, always, not to need to yell for help.) Just to underline the lesson here, I was critical of (and agreed with the criticism of others) of a man who died. (Note that here I'm still focussing just on the minor point of the way a kayaker carries a beacon.) I felt that a what Andrew did could be improved to make it work better - and I have patterned my own activity on that experience (of his) as well as advising others (in presentations on kayaking electronics/safety) of what I consider to be best-practice. So, I feel that 'criticism' (not to be confused with throwing stones) of anyone - alive or dead - engaged in boating activities is a useful practice; if that will keep me enjoying kayaking. Sometimes I am asked to 'lead' other kayakers, both on the water and at kayaking forums. I will continue to use the experiences of others to promote 'best practice' as it appears to me... as derived from my own experience and from the wider experience of the community - alive or dead. Perhaps, a habit of applying critical analysis to the 'bugger files' and situations we read and hear about is a useful basis for self-criticism. As we stand on the beach each time and consider what we are about to embark on - it may help us avoid our own contributions to the halls of shame. If not, then I agree that it loses much of its usefulness. Best Regards Paul Hayward, Auckland, New Zealand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Well Nick, Can and should and do we move on and apply the question of how we as individual paddlers, and maybe here in a collective discussion group at least, think about how to overcome our own weaknesses? Well sure, that can be part of this thread too, but making comments both general and specific about leadership, responsibility, and accountability doesnt make one smug either, okay? Certainly though, comparing and contrasting lessons unveiled from the Danish group-paddle dragon-boat incident with sea kayaking as we understand it, especially the element of individual responsibility and risk management, is a difficult task for me to do with any real practicality to my own paddling. Let me go another route instead. I think of Beowulfs boast upon his arrival in Dane-land with his little band of Geats on their mission to slay Grendel for Hrothgar Beowulf spake, bairn of Ecgtheow: "This was my thought, when my thanes and I bent to the ocean and entered our boat, that I would work the will of your people fully, or fighting fall in death, in fiend's gripe fast. I am firm to do an earl's brave deed, or end the days of this life of mine in the mead-hall here." Was this alleged Anglo-Saxon, fictional hero-of-old simply an arrogant braggart, lacking humility while culpable of hubris yet unfathomed? Was the boast evidence of a risk homeostasis that was way out of equilibrium with a more adequate reflection that should have been rendered? Was Beowulf resigned to a fatalistic outcome where death was as possible as success or at least a death in fighting to the final end if it came to that? Or was Beowulf a superb leader with superhuman skills and capabilities more than adequate for the task at hand evidenced by his previous exploits? I feel the latter is true and in fact Beowulf was showing his confidence while knowing he could die even if the statement was in a context of pride. As invincible as a hero thinks they are, the story was told in a time of grim irony when the hostility of nature and the uncontrollable forces of death were a central theme affecting all of life. We as sea kayakers have the right to express a confidence in our abilities to put to sea in our vulnerable craft. We train, we equip, we experience and grow, we learn efficiencies, we engage new levels of difficulty non-paddlers cannot understand, and we hopefully estimate abilities commensurate to the environment gaining expertise in the end that can only be exhausted by our own stupidity or a fate we couldnt foresee or perhaps control. Wisdom can't be taught but respect must be learned and maintained. We know this as a sure thing. We must however account for the consequences of each strategic and tactical decision made, our values and frames of reference accounting for these decisions. So it was with Beowulf, whose strength in honor and glory and self-assertion was also his eventual undoing. His weakness was his strength. Risk reduction, for me, comes from the realization of this weakness. Cherrs, Doug > I don't see the benefit to anyone to be critical of a dead man. > I know nothing about him, but I am sure he had no idea he was > leading a potential death march. We can pin point all kinds of > mistakes he made. And we can propose changes in law that may > eliminate the potential of these particular mistakes. We can use > his mistakes as object lessons for other leaders and be "sure" > they never make those same mistakes. > > But there is something deep inside people that will ensure that > other mistakes are made and other people die for other reasons. > We can feel confident that we are wise enough to know that we > will never make the mistakes made by this poor dead man, yet I > am sure everyone of us makes decisions at least once every year > that are similar in character but we have been lucky enough to > avoid the same consequences. > > Some of us allow a less experienced kayakers come out with us > when they probably shouldn't, just because we drove all the way > to the put in and don't want to drive home without paddling and > don't feel right about telling someone else to stay home when we > want to go out. Some of us go for "short" hikes in the woods > without spare cloths or any communications devices because we > have gone for hundreds of hikes and nothing bad has ever > happened and its just a short hike we don't need an annoying > back pack. Some of us drive over the speed limit, because we > were busy at home and left late and the kids need to get to > their soccer game and we are safe drivers and have the driving > record to prove it. Some of us go out for pizza on snowy > slippery days because we don't feel like cooking, and we have 4- > wheel-drive and anti-lock brakes and see our driving record > above. Some of us go paddling even though our VHF battery is not > fully charged because someone else must have a fully charge bat! > tery and the wind isn't that bad anyway. Some of us bring > our neighbors kids sledding without helmets because we didn't > wear helmets when we were kids and we survived and their mother > didn't send helmets with them anyhow. Only you know the stupid > things you do that could come back to bite you. Some of the > things we do we don't even realize are stupid because, well, we > are stupid. > > People are very good at rationalizing their need to get out > there and set a new record in dragon boat. I have no idea what > those reasons were in this particular case, but the drive to do > so runs strong in humans. There is very little we can do to keep > other people from creating that rationalization. I don't see > much point in finding ways to keep other people from being > stupid. I have enough trouble keeping myself from being stupid. > > So, the hard part of this kind of event is not coming up with > lessons that others can use to protect themselves, the hard part > is coming up with lessons we can use, knowing full well already > that going out in a dragonboat with kids without immersion > protection in nasty, cold weather is a bad idea. We know in > detail the technical mistakes that were made in this case and > are smug enough to feel we could teach the dead man something, > yet we need to figure out a way that we don't make our own > mistakes, yet still allow ourselves to have adventures and enjoy > a sport that is risky every time we go out. > > Does anyone have any advice on how to overcome our own weaknesses? > > Nick > > > On Feb 23, 2011, at 9:13 PM, Jackie Myers wrote: > > > Nick Schade wrote: > > > >> The leader in the dragon boat appears to have given up his > PFD and thus his life in an effort to save his charges. To me, > this indicates that the students were well served by trusting > his leadership. Do we have any indications that the > teacher/coaches took this adventure lightly? Obviously they did > not take it seriously enough, but that is almost always the case > when bad stuff happens. With a little more regard for dangers > most accidents would not happen. With a little more regard for > dangers most of us would not enjoy kayaking as much as we do. > >> > > > > Imo, this discussion wasn't about a "little more regard for > dangers."> > > Your response came on comments made not about specific actions > of this event but on the comments made by myself and Tony > regarding blind trust placed by novices in their instructors and > leaders as well as about unqualified, overconfident "trip > leaders" who think they are qualified to lead a novice group > into such conditions. > > PaddleWise was established to be able to discuss these > situations where hopefully paddlers can learn from them. > > And for anyone who may have missed the specific actions, this > is what I got from the information reported here about this > incident....> > > Two teachers with thirteen students were out to attempt "to > set a new record," in heavy seas, "ice slabs floating freely" on > the surface, water temps less than 36 degrees F, gusting wind, > heavy seas, no wet suits or dry suits - apparently no means for > signaling emergency - rescue coming in the form of a female > student who somehow, after capsizing, managed to fight her way > 500 meters against "heavy seas," fortunately reach shore and > then run 1 km to a store to raise the alarm (contact SAR). > > > > When I see this, I think safety was not a primary > consideration. I don't even think it was secondary. In the > case of instructors with students, my opinion is that safety > should be the primary consideration, ahead of setting any new > records. > > As for giving up a pfd to a student who was in trouble, I > would imagine the parents of that student would say that was the > least the teacher could have done in a deadly > situation. I'm sorry it cost him his life. > Even sorrier that someone didn't look at the situation > beforehand and say "let's go for the record another day." > I would like for paddlers to take from this the strength to say > "no, I don't like the looks of this and you can call me chicken, > but I'm not going." Trip leaders need to be honest > in evaluating their abilities in the given situation. If > he/she takes a group of students into the above conditions (as I > read from the reports), they need to re-evaluate their > leadership skills. If they survive. > > Jackie > > > > > > Nick Schade > > Guillemot Kayaks > 54 South Rd > Groton, CT 06340 > USA > Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 > http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
There is another angle to this, which one may wish to consider - I was trained, as a leader, never to put my neck on the line. The leader it is responsible for ensuring the safety and well being of those in the party who have less experience and less knowledge of rescues/staying alive, etc. It is the leader's responsibility to "shepherd" his flock and give moral and physical courage to continue the struggle to stay alive (in these circumstances) . It is the leader's responsibility to conduct a rescue within the resources of the group, having first assessed the situation. I suppose, as one of those in the water, one could easily say "he left us to our own devices - knowing that we were inexperienced." I, like members of Paddlewise, do not have all the facts before us, so I do not wish to make judgements - nevertheless, when the leader is no longer functional, the chain of command is broken, and it takes time for someone else to take charge, make an assessment, and! come up with a plan With this in mind, was the second teacher a competent canoeist/swimmer who could (and possibly did) take over responsibility of the group despite extreme circumstances. Some people find it difficult to have authority thrust upon them with a moments notice and in an extreme stress situation. I now tell a tale - the canoeing instructor who shared a flat with me in 1985 was running a canoe coaching course for potential instructors in the Alps and following a capsize, at least one kayak floated off downstream. A small group then followed by road to catch up with the kayak and recover it. The instructor clipped himself to the wrong D ring on his WW BA and enterred the water to swim to the kayak, with one of his students holding the throw line. When the line fully paid out, the student on the bank could not hold on and released the line. The instructor was found a few days later with a severed tow line still attached to his BA. The student said to me that he had little or no experience with the use of a throw line. This brought home the point made to me and others on a rescue course that it is the duty of the person with the most experience, ie, normally the leader of the group, to stand back and conduct the rescue but not be involved in ithimself - to ov! ersee the rescue from a distance so that judgements can be made and an action plan carried out. This was not done in this case and my room mate paid for the mistake with his life. Looking back on the current discussion, it seems strange that with the number of accidents which take place on the water, we have zeroed in on this particular one to voice ourselves and take stock of things. We shall all come away from this a little wiser. Tony -----UrsprC<ngliche Nachricht----- Von: "Jackie Myers" <jackie_at_muddypuppies.com> Gesendet: 24-Feb-2011 03:13:36 An: Paddlewise <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Betreff: Re: [Paddlewise] Danish dragon boat, some answers Nick Schade wrote: >The leader in the dragon boat appears to have given up his PFD and thus his life in an effort to save his charges. To me, this indicates that the students were well served by trusting his leadership. Do we have any indications that the teacher/coaches took this adventure lightly? Obviously they did not take it seriously enough, but that is almost always the case when bad stuff happens. With a little more regard for dangers most accidents would not happen. With a little more regard for dangers most of us would not enjoy kayaking as much as we do. > > Imo, this discussion wasn't about a "little more regard for dangers." Your response came on comments made not about specific actions of this event but on the comments made by myself and Tony regarding blind trust placed by novices in their instructors and leaders as well as about unqualified, overconfident "trip leaders" who think they are qualified to lead a novice group into such conditions. PaddleWise was established to be able to discuss these situations where hopefully paddlers can learn from them. And for anyone who may have missed the specific actions, this is what I got from the information reported here about this incident.... Two teachers with thirteen students were out to attempt "to set a new record," in heavy seas, "ice slabs floating freely" on the surface, water temps less than 36 degrees F, gusting wind, heavy seas, no wet suits or dry suits - apparently no means for signaling emergency - rescue coming in the form of a female student who somehow, after capsizing, managed to fight her way 500 meters against "heavy seas," fortunately reach shore and then run 1 km to a store to raise the alarm (contact SAR). When I see this, I think safety was not a primary consideration. I don't even think it was secondary. In the case of instructors with students, my opinion is that safety should be the primary consideration, ahead of setting any new records. As for giving up a pfd to a student who was in trouble, I would imagine the parents of that student would say that was the least the teacher could have done in a deadly situation. I'm sorry it cost him his life. Even sorrier that someone didn't look at the situation beforehand and say "let's go for the record another day." I would like for paddlers to take from this the strength to say "no, I don't like the looks of this and you can call me chicken, but I'm not going." Trip leaders need to be honest in evaluating their abilities in the given situation. If he/she takes a group of students into the above conditions (as I read from the reports), they need to re-evaluate their leadership skills. If they survive. Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. 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Nick, I'm not really sure what you mean by not casting the first stone. One of the major objectives of the Paddlewise list has always been paddling wisely! Thus the very name of this list. That means that sometimes we need be able to analyze situations, find mistakes, and point them out. I don't know what you meant, but it doesn't sound right to me. On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 3:01 PM, Nick Schade <nick_at_guillemot-kayaks.com> wrote: > On Feb 22, 2011, at 3:35 PM, Jackie Myers wrote: > >> Tony Ford wrote: >> >>> Hello >>> I used to be involved in investigating kayak accidents with the British Army and although not involved in such for 20 years now, am still interested in investigations and reports and findings. One of the saddest things was the blind trust placed by novices in their instructors and leaders. >> >> What's is further sad is the blind trust that uninformed and untrained "leaders" put in *themselves* that cause them to think they can lead a novice group in such conditions or where there is the risk of such conditions. Sometimes, lack of critical thinking seems rampant out there. > > > It should also remind us how we put a lot of faith in our own abilities to keep us safe each time we go out. I don't think I am alone in realizing that I have taken severe risks in my boating career without realizing it. It is often only after taking one of these risks that we have enough experience to know that it was a bad idea to begin with. > > The difference between this tragedy and a worthy adventure is razor thin. It is sad that one instructor sacrificed his life in this experience and several of his charges may suffer after effects for years, but none of us are in a position to cast the first stone. > Nick > > > Nick Schade > > Guillemot Kayaks > http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
When a trip goes well, we don't spend hours analysing why it went well. When a trip goes sour, it's human nature to agonize over the possible causes. If we knew the leader had led hundreds of successful outings before finally engaging in a failed trip, it might alter our comprehension of the event. So perhaps we don't have the complete picture. Bradford R. Crain Nick Schade wrote: > The leader in the dragon boat appears to have given up his PFD and thus > his life in an effort to save his charges. To me, this indicates that the > students were well served by trusting his leadership. Do we have any > indications that the teacher/coaches took this adventure lightly? > Obviously they did not take it seriously enough, but that is almost always > the case when bad stuff happens. With a little more regard for dangers > most accidents would not happen. With a little more regard for dangers > most of us would not enjoy kayaking as much as we do. > > Analyzing the Danish incident is good, but after a point there is no more > to be gained by identifying specific actions that others did wrong. It is > easy to say "I don't do that" I'll be safe. Eventually, we need to turn it > around and look at ourselves. I have been in situations where I had to > work very hard to keep on this side of a disaster. Sadly for the Danish > dragon boat crew, their efforts were not sufficient. They could have had > dry/wet suits on but where is John Winters to talk about risk homeostasis > when you need him. > > I honestly don't know what lessons can really be drawn from this > discussion. We are human, we like to push the boundaries, sometimes the > boundaries push back, sometimes they give way. We can step back from the > boundaries or move past them. Some of the Danish students may never get in > a boat again others will gain strength from their experience to go on to > do riskier things. Identifying one set of boundaries may just mean we push > against others that we don't recognize. > > So, my question is: How do we take the Danish incident and learn to paddle > safely? > > > On Feb 23, 2011, at 1:10 AM, Doug Lloyd wrote: > >> Maybe Nick just meant in general. But due to an historical context, >> casting >> stones is typically associated with being hypocritically culpable of >> course >> and while I understand what Nick is getting at, I don't see the hypocrisy >> here on the list. I do see some pretty big magnifying glasses coming out >> which is perfectly understandable when there's a tragedy of this >> magnitude >> where trust is element and has been broken. >> >> Exemplary leadership is something on the decline these days. Just look >> around or listen to the news. >> >> Doug > > Nick Schade > > Guillemot Kayaks > 54 South Rd > Groton, CT 06340 > USA > Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 > http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 2/24/2011 9:11:46 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, nick_at_guillemot-kayaks.com writes: I don't see much point in finding ways to keep other people from being stupid. I have enough trouble keeping myself from being stupid. Does anyone have any advice on how to overcome our own weaknesses? Nick ............................................................................ ............. I try to keep in mind a quote publicized by NRS _www.nrsweb.com_ (http://www.nrsweb.com) Click on Boating resources, click on Safety, click on Coming back. The quote is "Going out is optional, coming back is mandatory". The question is, are you determined to come back, willing to work to be sure you will come back, and willing to not go out if you are not sure you will come back? If you can't answer yes to these questions, you are not determined to come back. You are trusting the weather rather than checking it, you are trusting your boat though you haven't had it out for months, you are trusting your drysuit gaskets even if they are torn. You are trusting your companions even though you have never paddled with them before. You are trusting people who were up late last night drinking a lot of beer. In other words, you are trusting other people to be smarter than you are. That's a sad situation. (I was going to say the exception is with a qualified instructor, but these youngsters had a qualified instructor- though perhaps not qualified in these exact circumstances). I have certainly failed to observe the quote. Someone on this list who shall remain nameless has twice put me in a leaky boat and/or one with insufficient floatation and no bulkheads, and I let him do it. I hope I have learned better now. No crisis either time but at least once, some of that was luck. So, I have that quote on my kayak instructor business card, and it has, on occasion, gotten some laughs. Too bad for them. If I have it in front of me like that, I can always just say no. It isn't fun, but I don't have to add to others mistakes. It's when I fail to think that I suffer the consequences. I'm not sure this is what you have in mind. However, if you are going to walk the walk and talk the talk, it's a starting point. Pam in Washington State *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 9:11 PM, <Pamvetdr_at_aol.com> wrote: > . Someone on this list who > shall remain nameless has twice put me in a leaky boat and/or one with > insufficient floatation and no bulkheads, and I let him do it. I hope I > have > learned better now. No crisis either time but at least once, some of that > was > luck. > > I have no doubt at all that no one on this list is in any doubt as to who that "nameless" person might have been, so let me just say in my defence (at least of the leaky kayak incident) that neither of us had any idea of the extent of the leaks (there were seven - count 'em - seven holes in that Mariner Coaster; that we never got further than 25 feet from shore, we were both in drysuits with appropriate layers, I had a cell phone in a water-tight container, and Pam carries enough safety gear to rescue an Army regiment and feed them for a week. I don't remember the no-flotation one but I do remember the boat with the skegbox that leaked enough to make it unsafe which we discovered immediately after being in Deception Pass. Have we all done stupid things? Sure. Especially those of us who were kayaking 20 and 30 years ago. There were no cell phones, no hand-held VHF radios, a hand-held GPS cost $3500, and wool was considered to be the most safe clothing you could wear other than a skin diver's wetsuit. I have personally paddled in hiking boots, jeans and a sweater with a poncho. I can only say that most of the kayaks we paddled were incredibly difficult to overturn and, except for Doug Lloyd, most of us were pretty cautious about where we went and when. However it's not 1975 any more. If we can't at least have a discussion of what went wrong - and I don't think we can without at least some criticism of the decisions the trip leader made - then we might as well pack it up now. WDR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Pam can rescue me anytime. Food for an army, eh? I'm usually famished after an epic rescue. Anyway, my last post may or may not resonate with other paddlers but certainly it is a truism I should have emphasised more that there are always consequences to the decisions we make both before and after leaving the beach. There was talk recently about trying to get the Storm Island Rescue into print again because as Matt noted, there was a huge educational component regarding group dynamics that rarely gets mentioned in safety articles and part of that includes paddler misunderstandings, differing perspectives, as well as the ability for speaking up for yourself or simply learning to say no. One of the participants in that incident learned, for himself, this most important aspect of saying no - of letting your feelings be known and acting upon them. His number one rule now is "if in doubt, don't". And don't ever let anyone throw you into a deficient boat or a place you unwittingly in a dangerous situation. Just say no. No means no. Go, no go. There is a no in there for a reason. Craig, I certainly don't miss my woollies, though interestingly enough, I'm back full circle to wool again, with Merino wool this time. I do miss the raw lucidity of those early days where for me, no often meant maybe and the more time I spent on the water (or in the water as the case may have been) challenging conditions solo would equate to an increasingly intense individualism that further begat the same attribute. There were dumb risks, stupid risks, balanced risks with the reward being a high fun quotient, and risks that only you knew had a good probability of placing you out on the edge for a sustained timeframe - but a risk you knew you would likely survive while gaining unique experiences and experience. It's late and I have to get back to gluing a proboscis paper-mache beak on the mask of one of my daughter's eagle-like outfits for a party tomorrow. I think she's glad I'm still around and didn't become a banquet for crabs while the seas were whooping my ass years ago. Pam's right of course, it's all about making it back home safely, 'cause when paddlers do expire prematurely, the ones left behind are the ones who really suffer. There's no risk versus reward for them, even if I am a little grumpier these days sitting around on the couch on that same ass avoiding big water. DL On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 9:11 PM, <Pamvetdr_at_aol.com> wrote: > . Someone on this list who > shall remain nameless has twice put me in a leaky boat and/or one with > insufficient floatation and no bulkheads, and I let him do it. I hope I > have > learned better now. No crisis either time but at least once, some of that > was > luck. > > I have no doubt at all that no one on this list is in any doubt as to who that "nameless" person might have been, so let me just say in my defence (at least of the leaky kayak incident) that neither of us had any idea of the extent of the leaks (there were seven - count 'em - seven holes in that Mariner Coaster; that we never got further than 25 feet from shore, we were both in drysuits with appropriate layers, I had a cell phone in a water-tight container, and Pam carries enough safety gear to rescue an Army regiment and feed them for a week. I don't remember the no-flotation one but I do remember the boat with the skegbox that leaked enough to make it unsafe which we discovered immediately after being in Deception Pass. Have we all done stupid things? Sure. Especially those of us who were kayaking 20 and 30 years ago. There were no cell phones, no hand-held VHF radios, a hand-held GPS cost $3500, and wool was considered to be the most safe clothing you could wear other than a skin diver's wetsuit. I have personally paddled in hiking boots, jeans and a sweater with a poncho. I can only say that most of the kayaks we paddled were incredibly difficult to overturn and, except for Doug Lloyd, most of us were pretty cautious about where we went and when. However it's not 1975 any more. If we can't at least have a discussion of what went wrong - and I don't think we can without at least some criticism of the decisions the trip leader made - then we might as well pack it up now. WDR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Anyone is welcome to use this. Please be sure you correctly attribute the quote. In fact, go to the NRS site and read the article. The quote is reworked from one about mountain climbing. Pam in Washington State In a message dated 2/24/2011 10:57:46 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, jackie_at_muddypuppies.com writes: These are great! I need to talk to Kirk about putting them on the PaddleWise website somewhere (if you don't mind). Perfect fit for PaddleWise :) Jackie Pamvetdr_at_aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 2/24/2011 9:11:46 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, >nick_at_guillemot-kayaks.com writes: > >I don't see much point in finding ways to keep other people from being >stupid. I have enough trouble keeping myself from being stupid. > >Does anyone have any advice on how to overcome our own weaknesses? > >Nick >........................................................................... . >............. >I try to keep in mind a quote publicized by NRS _www.nrsweb.com_ >(http://www.nrsweb.com) Click on Boating >resources, click on Safety, click on Coming back. > The quote is "Going out is optional, coming back is mandatory". > The question is, are you determined to come back, willing to work to be >sure you will come back, and willing to not go out if you are not sure you >will come back? > If you can't answer yes to these questions, you are not determined to >come back. You are trusting the weather rather than checking it, you are >trusting your boat though you haven't had it out for months, you are >trusting your drysuit gaskets even if they are torn. You are trusting your >companions even though you have never paddled with them before. You are trusting >people who were up late last night drinking a lot of beer. > In other words, you are trusting other people to be smarter than you >are. That's a sad situation. (I was going to say the exception is with a >qualified instructor, but these youngsters had a qualified instructor- though >perhaps not qualified in these exact circumstances). > >I have certainly failed to observe the quote. Someone on this list who >shall remain nameless has twice put me in a leaky boat and/or one with >insufficient floatation and no bulkheads, and I let him do it. I hope I have >learned better now. No crisis either time but at least once, some of that was >luck. > > So, I have that quote on my kayak instructor business card, and it >has, on occasion, gotten some laughs. Too bad for them. If I have it in front >of me like that, I can always just say no. It isn't fun, but I don't have >to add to others mistakes. It's when I fail to think that I suffer the >consequences. > > I'm not sure this is what you have in mind. However, if you are >going to walk the walk and talk the talk, it's a starting point. > Pam in Washington State >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed >here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire >responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. >Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net >Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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