I'm interested in anecdotal descriptions of crossings kayakers have attempted under poor visibility (fog, mist, scudding clouds on the deck, poor lighting, etc.). I've read and digested "theoretical" approaches to such crossings and have a fair grasp of how to attempt one: figure out the heading for the route, estimate the deflectingeffect of current/wind, run the hull speed/current speed triangle to get the actual heading I would need to make the desired course over ground in the direction I want, and estimate the crossing time. But, I'd like to know of the experiences of others on the water who have used those techniques to make actual crossings. I've only made a couple, and there wasn't much to them. One was in dense fog in full-on daylight on my home paddling water (Lower Columbia River) to a 200-yard-long island a little over 2 nautical miles out in a very open stretch of the River (at least 2 miles to any other shorelines). The current was pretty much slack, so that my paddling buddy and I just dialed in the magnetic heading for the upper end of the island and went for it, timing our progress so that we knew approximately when to look sharp for the outline of the island. Turned out that it was not much of a challenge, because the fog lifted as we paddled, and gave us 300 yards of visibility as we reached the vicinity of the island, making it easy to spot. FWIW, we would have passed the island about a hundred yards upstream of its upstream end on our actual course, a displacement which translates to something like an "error" of 1.5 degrees to 3.0 degrees. (Over that distance, each 100 yards to the side of our intended mark is worth about 1.5 degrees; because our compass heading was for the "upper" end of the island, we "missed" our mark by about 1.5 degrees, with the center of the island another 1.5 degrees downstream from the mark.) I think this might just have been beginner's luck, however, because I don't think I can read my deck compass to better than +/- 1 or 2 degrees, and even in flat water (which this was) I don't think I can HOLD a compass course any better than that, either. I'd guess this amounts to an error of at least +/- 2 to 3 degrees, on a good day. If this island had been 4 nautical miles off, our error would have put us maybe 200 plus yards upstream, and we might have missed the island entirely, even with improving visibility. This was a "just for fun" crossing we attempted purposely in the fog, to test ourselves, so it probably does not count. What experiences have others had? I'd like to know. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR sea kayaker, sometimes lost in fog *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On 10 Apr 98, Dave Kruger wrote: > I think this might just have been beginner's luck, however, because > I don't think I can read my deck compass to better than +/- 1 or 2 > degrees, and even in flat water (which this was) I don't think I can > HOLD a compass course any better than that, either. I'd guess this > amounts to an error of at least +/- 2 to 3 degrees, on a good day. Two things here Dave, I don't think there is any such thing as "beginners luck". There is a possible success ratio that might be observed by "beginners", but it is my opinion that this "success" is a result of a higher level of concentration (or whatever you might like to call it) than might be found in a more "experienced" person - perhaps you can call it "beginners FOCUS"<smile>. Secondly, I agree with your statement about your margin of error. I can't speak for others, but my deck compass has 5 degree gradiants making readings of better than 2-3 degrees nearly impossible (from my point of view). My handheld is gradiated at 2.5(I THINK) degrees, making finer readings possible, but it is nearly impossible for me to do better than do occasional "spot checks" with my handheld - I can't seem to hold the compass level and in front of me and paddle at the same time<smile>. > This was a "just for fun" crossing we attempted purposely in the > fog, to test ourselves, so it probably does not count. What > experiences have others had? I'd like to know. "just for fun" runs are the best way I know to develop the skills you might one day need to save your skin, IT COUNTS<smile>. I personally have had just 2 adventures in REALLY low visability. One was a "staff training" situation, we had canceled classes and trips for the day because of the visabilty. A group of about 6 or 8 of us - instructors, guides, and interns, - went out with our compasses and charts and paddled around in our "familiar" waters finding channel markers, points of land, rock out croppings(islands) and the like. This may not sound like much challenge, but I tell you that with the 30-50 feet of visability we were playing in, it was a KICK! We - ALL of us - learned a lot that day, and to be honest I was a little dissapointed to see things starting to clear up after only 2-3 hours of fog... I'm sure that was a different story for the lobstermen - we "snuck up" on a number of working lobster boats during our playtime, it's amazing how things sound so much different when you can't see much past the end of your boat! The second time I had the oppertunity to "Play" in the fog was not really play. A fellow guide and myself were taking a group of 10 people on a week long "Coast of Maine, via Bed and Breakfast" trip. The second day of the trip, the fog nearly engulfed us, I would estimate visabilty to be less than 300 feet. Our days course was to take us up the coast from Orrs Island, North with several SMALL inlet "crossings" and island hops (probably the longest hop would not be more than 1/4 - 1/2 miles at each leg). We knew that if we completely lost our skills we could always paddle west and we would eventually hit tera firma so we decided to take the group out. We had a BLAST! There was no wind to contend with, and only tide and minimal currents, so we pointed the group in the right direction and told everyone to stay close. We broke each section of the trip up into small very managable hops from one known point to another keeping a close eye on the compasses and charts. We had only one even remote close call - if you can call it that - when a sport fisherman was coming at us at what SEEMed like full speed, we eventually made ourselves seen and he adjusted course an passed us by easily. The customers admitted afterwards that they were a little reluctant to launch with us, but by the time we hit our first and second "way-points" were having just as much fun as Paul (the other guide) and I. Gregg Bolton gsb_at_ime.net http://w3.ime.net/~gsb *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I paddle the Maine coast for the most part which is often fog-bound but does not have current as severe as your river crossings would encounter normally. Though I am familiar enough with much of the coastline and associated islands which I paddle to regain my bearings in the fog, I do get thoroughly lost on occassion. Last summer I did a midnight launch from Stonington Deer Isle with the intention of doing some dawn photography out on the islands. Daybreak came to dense fog which, since my deck compass does not light meant that I was several miles out among four dozen or so islands which look remarkably similar in the fog. The fog gave no indication of lifting as the morning progressed so I continued paddling and dodging commercial boating traffic. About midmorning I finally encountered a daymarker on an offshore shoal which I was able to identify on my chart. For the heck of it, I spent several hours running bearings from one island to the next in the fog to see what kind of error I would encounter. While many of the crossings were just several hundred yards, a couple were in excess of one mile. I was happy to find that landfalls were reasonable on target though if I had not been familiar with the area, it would have been harder to find my way I'm sure. All considered, it was an interesting experience. mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Dave Kruger wrote: [snip] >>This was a "just for fun" crossing we attempted purposely in the fog, to >>test ourselves, so it probably does not count. What experiences have >>others had? I'd like to know. >> >>-- >>Dave Kruger >>Astoria, OR >>sea kayaker, sometimes lost in fog i can't relate a crossing... but one of my first ever solo river trips in my sea kayak, was in november a couple years ago, and i launched 2 hours before sunset. it started snowing, and the air got really cold, but the water was very warm. about a half hour into the paddle, the fog started forming, and i paddled another hour down river in the fog. very erie!! at a couple points the visibility was only a few yards 8-) i knew i couldn't play at any of the play spots [if i even saw them] and just kept heading down river... obviously i lived ;-) but it was scarey some times, and fun most of the time. i keep trying to do it again, but just haven't managed!! mark #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com-------------------------------------- mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/cpr [Colorado Paddlers' Resource] http://www.diac.com/~zen/rmskc [Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club] http://www.diac.com/~zen/rmcc [Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page] http://www.diac.com/~zen/mark [personal] -- Fortune: I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it. -- Mae West --- Yield to Temptation ... it may not pass your way again. -- Lazarus Long, "Time Enough for Love" *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 04:27 10/04/98 -0700, Dave Kruger wrote: >I'm interested in anecdotal descriptions of crossings kayakers have >attempted under poor visibility (fog, mist, scudding clouds on the deck, >poor lighting, etc.). No anecdotes of my own, I'm afraid, but there is a good cautionary tale/trip report on the Irish sea kayaking association web site, "The Tide that turned too soon" http://homepages.iol.ie/~dwalco/tnd9.htm which is definitely worth a read. Where I have good experience of tides, I usually work on the assumption that there is a possible error of at least +/- 5 degrees in compass course, and wouldn't attempt a route unless crossings could be kept short enough to pretty much guarantee finding identifiable waypoints. Even in good visibility I try to look for routes where it is possible to 'aim off' to guaranteed which part of a coast line is the landfall. However, whatever the visibility when I depart, I aim to keep a track of my position, which in my current technologically challenged condition means dead reckoning if the visibility is poor. I guess that if you arrive at your estimated position for the target, and can't find it, you would need to either start a search pattern, and if that fails head off on a course which will (with a large margin for error) take you to where you know where you are again. I've experienced areas with tides which I would defy anyone without local knowledge to predict, thus rendering dead reckoning unreliable and so I don't know an area I tend to be pretty conservative in my choice of routes. A few years ago I would have scoffed at the idea of carrying a GPS, but now I'm considering one - but maybe that's just because they are almost the same price as a good compass ;-). I wonder though, do GPS owners attempt correspondingly more ambitious crossings than they did before they got their GPS ? Cheers Colin PS Maybe the good professor Peregrine Inverbon, Ph.d., DD, LL.d, Ph.G, could enlighten us about some of the antiquarian methods of navigation. I feel confident that prior to the current GPS satellite system the inuit in their wisdom must have devised some sort of network of airborne crotch dirigibles to signpost the way through the northern dark and mists :-0 ______________________________________________________ Dr Colin Calder Centre for CBL in Land Use and Environmental Sciences (CLUES) MacRobert Building, Aberdeen University, Aberdeen, AB24 5UA, UK, Scotland ______________________________________________________ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Hey Dave, I am a hiker, who's primary love is bushwhacking (hiking mountains where there are NO trails). Greg has relayed his boating experiences to me in the past, & forwarded this one to me. After perusing it, I did note your question of what others had experienced. I just thought I'd pass along a few tidbits of MHO. I have done a number of bushwhacks in the New England area, including a few solo. The summit of these mountains which I hike, has a register (a plastic bottle attached to a tree by the local hiking club. it has a pad of paper & pencil for people to enter comments, name, etc.), which one enters their name to verify that the hiker has completed the peak. "Will the next climber enter and sign in, please!" Anyway, from my perspective, your test trek was absolutely the way to go. (When it doesn't count, is when it counts the most). It's sorta like trying out new gear in your livingroom. So when you're in the real situation, you don't have to think about it. You and your gear are already best buddies. Another analogy would be walking around your yard or neighborhood following your compass, or going on a short, local paddle trip in the fog. Get the picture? As for the +/- 2 degrees or so: I certainly don't expect any better than that. If you can do better, on a consistent basis, please come and retrain me! For additional info, you might try picking up a compass book in the bookstore, if you haven't already. In spite of what I think I know, from these types of books I find new little tricks I didn't know, & some I had forgotten. :-) Enjoy your boating, keep on practicing & keep on exercising that compass! Then you no longer can call it "beginner's luck". Instead, it'll be "Experts, skillful luck" :-) Take care. Pete & the cow (Trail name) > -----Original Message----- > From: Gregg Bolton [SMTP:gsb_at_ime.net] > Sent: Friday, April 10, 1998 4:43 AM > To: PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Cc: Paul Mattor; Heinold, Peter; BRYBOLT_at_worldnet.att.net > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Crossings in Fog > > On 10 Apr 98, Dave Kruger wrote: > > > I think this might just have been beginner's luck, however, because > > I don't think I can read my deck compass to better than +/- 1 or 2 > > degrees, and even in flat water (which this was) I don't think I can > > HOLD a compass course any better than that, either. I'd guess this > > amounts to an error of at least +/- 2 to 3 degrees, on a good day. > > Two things here Dave, I don't think there is any such thing as > "beginners luck". There is a possible success ratio that might be > observed by "beginners", but it is my opinion that this "success" is > a result of a higher level of concentration (or whatever you might > like to call it) than might be found in a more "experienced" person - > perhaps you can call it "beginners FOCUS"<smile>. > > Secondly, I agree with your statement about your margin of > error. > I can't speak for others, but my deck compass has 5 degree gradiants > making readings of better than 2-3 degrees nearly impossible (from my > point of view). My handheld is gradiated at 2.5(I THINK) degrees, > making finer readings possible, but it is nearly impossible for me to > do better than do occasional "spot checks" with my handheld - I can't > seem to hold the compass level and in front of me and paddle at the > same time<smile>. > > > This was a "just for fun" crossing we attempted purposely in the > > fog, to test ourselves, so it probably does not count. What > > experiences have others had? I'd like to know. > > "just for fun" runs are the best way I know to develop the > skills > you might one day need to save your skin, IT COUNTS<smile>. > > I personally have had just 2 adventures in REALLY low > visability. > One was a "staff training" situation, we had canceled classes and > trips for the day because of the visabilty. A group of about 6 or 8 > of us - instructors, guides, and interns, - went out with our > compasses and charts and paddled around in our "familiar" waters > finding channel markers, points of land, rock out croppings(islands) > and the like. This may not sound like much challenge, but I tell you > that with the 30-50 feet of visability we were playing in, it was a > KICK! We - ALL of us - learned a lot that day, and to be honest I > was a little dissapointed to see things starting to clear up after > only 2-3 hours of fog... I'm sure that was a different story for the > lobstermen - we "snuck up" on a number of working lobster boats > during our playtime, it's amazing how things sound so much different > when you can't see much past the end of your boat! > > The second time I had the oppertunity to "Play" in the fog was > not > really play. A fellow guide and myself were taking a group of 10 > people on a week long "Coast of Maine, via Bed and Breakfast" trip. > The second day of the trip, the fog nearly engulfed us, I would > estimate visabilty to be less than 300 feet. Our days course was to > take us up the coast from Orrs Island, North with several SMALL > inlet "crossings" and island hops (probably the longest hop would not > be more than 1/4 - 1/2 miles at each leg). We knew that if we > completely lost our skills we could always paddle west and we would > eventually hit tera firma so we decided to take the group out. We > had a BLAST! There was no wind to contend with, and only tide and > minimal currents, so we pointed the group in the right direction and > told everyone to stay close. We broke each section of the trip up > into small very managable hops from one known point to another > keeping a close eye on the compasses and charts. We had only one > even remote close call - if you can call it that - when a sport > fisherman was coming at us at what SEEMed like full speed, we > eventually made ourselves seen and he adjusted course an passed us by > easily. The customers admitted afterwards that they were a little > reluctant to launch with us, but by the time we hit our first and > second "way-points" were having just as much fun as Paul (the other > guide) and I. > Gregg Bolton > gsb_at_ime.net > http://w3.ime.net/~gsb *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 04:27 AM 4/10/98 -0700, dkruger_at_seasurf.com wrote: >I'm interested in anecdotal descriptions of crossings kayakers have >attempted under poor visibility (fog, mist, scudding clouds on the deck, >poor lighting, etc.). I've read and digested "theoretical" approaches >to such crossings and have a fair grasp of how to attempt one: figure >out the heading for the route, estimate the deflectingeffect of >current/wind, run the hull speed/current speed triangle to get the >actual heading I would need to make the desired course over ground in >the direction I want, and estimate the crossing time. > >But, I'd like to know of the experiences of others on the water who have >used those techniques to make actual crossings. > While I have made a few heavy fog crossings in the past, I now avoid them when the visibility is less than a few hundred feet. With the popularity of GPS, I have been nearly run over by small power boats, that were at planing speed in heavy fog. Most of my fog crossings have been in visibility of 150 feet +, and I have relied on dead reckoning combined with knowledge of the currents and a crossing distance of 2-4 miles with a huge target. The only truly "bad" crossing I have had was when a friend of mine was leading a trip (and had the only working compass - mine fell overboard the night before). We were attempting a 4+ mile crossing in no breeze, no waves, conditions with about 6-10 feet of visibility (you had a hard time seeing the end of your kayak). My unamed friend, kept having us correct our course by a few degrees (he had worked as a climbing guide on Mt Rainier in the past, so we trusted his skills - too much), and after the 7 or 8th correction I was very uneasy (I usually hold a very straight line). We determined that we really didn't know where we were going and could possibly be heading down the strait and parrallel to both shores. After about 30-40 minutes of uneasy paddling I saw the outline of some land mass, and knew we couldn't have finished our crossing. We landed on a small Island only 100 yards from where we started. The group wanted to try again, but I convinced them to paddle over to a nearby island with ferry service and ride the "big boat" through the fog. -Saul Saul Kinderis saul_at_isomedia.com tel:(425)402-3426 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
No fog crossings, but this experience seems germane: I took my GPS out on the Willamette River around Ross Island. This is the widest spot on the river, and there's some channels and river current to play around in. Most of the time the current is about 2 knots, so this gets you off course when you're crossing the river. Anyway, I marked a waypoint at the put-in near the Selwood Bridge. Not only is the bridge visible from several miles, there's a bright "store" at the end of the dock which is easy to get a fix on. So it's possible to point the bow directly at the way-point and do a dead-reckoning. The GPS has a screen that computes "cross track error" --the amount of "slip" off course that you're doing. It also prints out precisely your heading in degrees --not just a tick on the compass face, this is a digital read-out. Then there's a bearing reading and an arrow that shows how to correct your course to make your waypoint. The GPS even computes your speed and "estimated time enroute" --which is nice in the dead of winter when you want to get to the haul-out before dark. OK. . . the GPS also tells you the time for sunrise and sunset at your location. (More data than I can use!) Anyway. . . I'm using all this data in clear weather just to compare my unassisted dead-reckoning with all the digital data. This is, of course, on a river where the current varies owing to pilings and docks in the channel, bends in the river, whether you're in the center or on the edge of the channel. . . So the bottom line is that you can't keep on course no matter what! Additionally, just this week-end on Willapa Bay I was heading for Pinnacle Rocks a couple miles away. I had a clear fix on the rocks, but was working against the tide coupled with a gusty cross-wind. There are stakes in the bay that mark oyster beds so even out in open water these provide bearing points. I was amazed to find myself being blown sideways across the water. The boat wasn't weathercocking because I was pretty much exactly broadside to the wind, but I kept watching the stakes cross my bow at right angles. The upshot is, I suppose, that it seems nearly impossible to factor all the variables in heading and course so that you don't miss your objective over any significant distance. It may be possible to make a large landfall, but trying to find a channel mouth or a dock in the fog is going to be pretty "touchy-feely." Geo. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Geo. Bergeron wrote: > > No fog crossings, but this experience seems germane: > > I took my GPS out on the Willamette River around Ross Island. This > is the widest spot on the river, and there's some channels and river current > to play around in. Most of the time the current is about 2 knots, so this > gets you off course when you're crossing the river. > > Anyway, I marked a waypoint at the put-in near the Selwood Bridge. > Not only is the bridge visible from several miles, there's a bright "store" > at the end of the dock which is easy to get a fix on. So it's possible to > point the bow directly at the way-point and do a dead-reckoning. > > The GPS has a screen that computes "cross track error" --the amount > of "slip" off course that you're doing. It also prints out precisely your > heading in degrees --not just a tick on the compass face, this is a digital > read-out. Then there's a bearing reading and an arrow that shows how to > correct your course to make your waypoint. The GPS even computes your speed > and "estimated time enroute" --which is nice in the dead of winter when you > want to get to the haul-out before dark. OK. . . the GPS also tells you the > time for sunrise and sunset at your location. (More data than I can use!) > > Anyway. . . I'm using all this data in clear weather just to compare > my unassisted dead-reckoning with all the digital data. This is, of course, > on a river where the current varies owing to pilings and docks in the > channel, bends in the river, whether you're in the center or on the edge of > the channel. . . So the bottom line is that you can't keep on course no > matter what! > > Additionally, just this week-end on Willapa Bay I was heading for > Pinnacle Rocks a couple miles away. I had a clear fix on the rocks, but was > working against the tide coupled with a gusty cross-wind. There are stakes > in the bay that mark oyster beds so even out in open water these provide > bearing points. I was amazed to find myself being blown sideways across the > water. The boat wasn't weathercocking because I was pretty much exactly > broadside to the wind, but I kept watching the stakes cross my bow at right > angles. > > The upshot is, I suppose, that it seems nearly impossible to factor > all the variables in heading and course so that you don't miss your > objective over any significant distance. It may be possible to make a large > landfall, but trying to find a channel mouth or a dock in the fog is going > to be pretty "touchy-feely." > > Geo. > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** The best answer is still the old pilotage trick of making sure you miss your landfall either to the right or left. Then you are sure which way to turn to find your destination. Roger *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
There is a simple rule about travelling in fog. Don't. Only travel in fog if there is no option. For those interested in what to do if you get caught there is a good discussion of navigating in fog in Jeff Markell's "The Sailor's Weather Guide". If you paddle in areas where fog is common you should learn the conditions that cause it and be extra cautious when those conditions exist. Even at that you may not be able to avoid it completely. The biggest danger is the one mentioned by Colin Calder - that you will assume that a GPS makes fog navigation safe. The GPS may tell you where you are but it doesn't tell anyone else where you are. Like Saul I have seen many high speed powerboats zipping down channels on a full plane. You know they have a GPS and can't see squat. It is difficult not to hope they will meet their kindred souls head on. On Georgian Bay fog can set in quickly and when fog is likely (dew point spread is small) I paddle very close to shore and make no open water or wide channel crossings. I doubt if any safety gear will protect you from what a prop at high speed will do to you. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> The biggest danger is the one mentioned by Colin Calder - that you will > assume that a GPS makes fog navigation safe. The GPS may tell you where you > are but it doesn't tell anyone else where you are. Like Saul I have seen > many high speed powerboats zipping down channels on a full plane. You know > they have a GPS and can't see squat. It is difficult not to hope they will > meet their kindred souls head on. A GPS does make *navigation* safe. It doesn't make other boaters behave safely. Being in a kayak or canoe does give you an advantage in that you can navigate much more hazard filled waters than the power driven crowd. Use a good chart, and minimize the amount of time you spend in the channels. IMHO people who zoom in zero visibility are much more likely to die from hitting another powerboat, sailboat, or structure than they are to every hit/kill a kayaker/canoeist. Personally, I tend to think natural selection will eliminate them long before they do me any harm. > I doubt if any safety gear will protect you from what a prop at high speed > will do to you. The chances of being hit with the prop are so infinitesimal; I'm much more concerned about airplanes falling on me. Even in a collision you are much more likely to be killed by blunt trauma than by the action of the prop. The prop would probably be much less painful. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
This fog crossing stuff can be somewhat unnerving and calls for self control and sound judgement from what I can discern. Check out the following story about what could have happened and didn't at: http://www.island.net/~surfer/story11b.htm These kayaks could have been churned into butter by a passing ocean vessel and now one would have ever known what happened. Cheers, Philip John Winters wrote: > There is a simple rule about travelling in fog. Don't. Only travel in fog > if there is no option. > > For those interested in what to do if you get caught there is a good > discussion of navigating in fog in Jeff Markell's "The Sailor's Weather > Guide". > > If you paddle in areas where fog is common you should learn the conditions > that cause it and be extra cautious when those conditions exist. Even at > that you may not be able to avoid it completely. > > The biggest danger is the one mentioned by Colin Calder - that you will > assume that a GPS makes fog navigation safe. The GPS may tell you where you > are but it doesn't tell anyone else where you are. Like Saul I have seen > many high speed powerboats zipping down channels on a full plane. You know > they have a GPS and can't see squat. It is difficult not to hope they will > meet their kindred souls head on. > > On Georgian Bay fog can set in quickly and when fog is likely (dew point > spread is small) I paddle very close to shore and make no open water or > wide channel crossings. > > I doubt if any safety gear will protect you from what a prop at high speed > will do to you. > > Cheers, > John Winters > Redwing Designs > Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft > http://home.ican.net/~735769/ > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Philip Wylie wrote: > [snip] > Check out the following story about what could have happened and didn't > at: http://www.island.net/~surfer/story11b.htm > > These kayaks could have been churned into butter by a passing > ocean vessel and no one would have ever known what happened. Wow. Great story. Unbelievable what those two tried to do, especially in that area. Amen to brother Philip's remarks. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> This fog crossing stuff can be somewhat unnerving and calls for > self control and sound judgement from what I can discern. > Check out the following story about what could have happened and didn't > at: http://www.island.net/~surfer/story11b.htm I read only one failure, and it wasn't the fog. It was the lack of a compass. You folks with good eyes depend on visual navigation to much. Give me a choice between heavy fog with a good compass, or clear weather and no compass, I'll take the fog and compass any day of the week. If you don't want to buy and install a deck mounted compass, the least you should do is make sure you have a rinkydink one permantently stowed in one of your hatches. Granted, I haven't forgotten a compass, ever, but if somehow I found that I'd gotten to the trailhead or boatramp without one; I'd either cancel the trip completely and go home, or maybe camp out of the car and spend the day fishing near the ramp. I'll tell you though, my deck mounted compass, GPS, and heavily gridded maps make night/foggy navigation a breeze. Fog isn't a horrible problem down here on the Texas Gulf Coast; I do love being out at night though, its cool, comfortable, and peaceful. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
From: R. Walker Personally, I tend to think natural selection will eliminate them long before they do me any harm. ============================= best wishes. If you paddle on the Chesapeake bay or its tributaries, i suggest that you give your loved ones a hug before doing extensive fog paddling. bye bye bliven *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
R. Walker wrote; IMHO people who zoom in zero visibility are much more likely to die from hitting another powerboat, sailboat, or structure than they are to every hit/kill a kayaker/canoeist. Personally, I tend to think natural selection will eliminate them long before they do me any harm. That is a comforting thought and worth remembering if one is run down while safely navigating a channel in the fog with GPS. The chances of being hit with the prop are so infinitesimal; I'm much more concerned about airplanes falling on me. Even in a collision you are much more likely to be killed by blunt trauma than by the action of the prop. The prop would probably be much less painful. Another comforting thought. I certainly wouldn't want to instill any unnecessary fear in my fellow paddlers (or comfort as the case may be). Where might I find the statistics that indicate that being hit by a falling plane is more likely than being hit by a power boat propellor after being run down by a power boat? Having almost been hit by a power boat in good visibility (well, good if you are sober) I would think that my time may be coming due for an airplane concusssion. In the meantime I think I will practice my instant weather forecasting and the use of my sling psychrometer. That way I may improve my odds at avoiding getting caught in fog too far offshore. I know, it's the wimpy thing to do. real men know how to get tehmselves out fo trouble. We wusses just like to keep out of trouble. Possibly comes from being raised by over protective mothers who kept saying "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound pf cure". What do mothers know anyway? Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ . *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> From: "R. Walker" <rww_at_mailbox.neosoft.com> <snip> > > IMHO people who zoom in zero visibility are much more likely to > die from hitting another powerboat, sailboat, or structure > than they are to every hit/kill a kayaker/canoeist. Personally, > I tend to think natural selection will eliminate them long > before they do me any harm. So... if you are wrong, does that mean you were eliminated through natural selection? Just curious... Jackie EEEEEEeeeKK! It's one HOLD ON, Ethel! We cain't hit of those sea kayakers!!!! HIM! He's not part of our natural QUICK HOMER!!! sELEction!! Les git outa TURN the BOAT!!! HEEEEEEeeeeerr...!!! wWWw ,, ___m__oo__m__m__oo__m__ ( ) \ / ,*************************, ( | ) , , , , \ | / , \ | / _at_ , _at_ _at_ \ | / , , , _at_ , _at_ \ | / , , _at_ , _at_ , , _at_\ | / _at_ , , a_at_ _at__at_ _at_\ | /_at__at_ _at__at_ _at__at_ a_at_ _at_a a_at_jf \_at_ a _at_| _at__at_ _at_ / _at_aa _at_aa _at_ _at_ , a_at_ _at_a_at_ _at_a _at_ _at_ _at__at_ _at__at_a _at_ _at_aa , _at__at_ _at_a a _at_a , , _at_ a_at_ ~~~~~_at_ _at_a `_at_a', _at_a _at_a_at_a _at_~~~~~~~~~~ , , a_at_ _at_a_at_ , _at_a_at_,` _at_ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~ ~~ ~~ ~ ~~~~~~ cn_ ~~~~~~ ~ ~~~ ~~ ~ ~ ~~~ ~ ~~~~ ~~~~ ( ) ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~ /[|||]\ ~~~ ~ ~~ ~ ~ ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~ sss>=====_at_V/[___]\V_at_=====<sss ( ^ ) ~~~ ~ ~ ~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ (\ o o >jf:-) o (/ o *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> > IMHO people who zoom in zero visibility are much more likely to > > die from hitting another powerboat, sailboat, or structure > > than they are to every hit/kill a kayaker/canoeist. Personally, > > I tend to think natural selection will eliminate them long > > before they do me any harm. > > So... if you are wrong, does that mean you were eliminated > through natural selection? > > Just curious... yes. However, no one has presented anything concrete to make me suspect that the risk of collision is particularly high. I know we all have anecdotal stories of near misses; but I'm wondering how is that kayak/canoe specific. I'm also not saying that the risk is zero, or that death is not possible. I personally do not allow these minimal risk/maximal harm situations effect the choices I make. There are simply way to many of them to get all hot and bothered about any particular one. We take these kinds of risks all the time, everything from eating oysters that we didn't personally prepare, to merging on the freeway on short, high speed ramps. I personally, just can't seem to get particularly excited about them. I'm much more concerned about watching my allergies, preventing lung infections, wearing my seatbelt, etc; because those are risks which are actually significant. Avoiding a fog-crossing because of risk does virtually nothing to reduce your exposure to these min/max possibilities. If one was going to avoid all of these min/max situations, you'd spend your life avoiding life. Thanks, but no thanks. Questions to ask: How many sea kayakers died last year as a result of collision? How many people/days of sea kayaking were there? How many people/days of sea kayaking were done in the fog? How many of the collision deaths were attributable to low vis? Unless one can answer those questions, the risk assessment is based on nothing but anectdotes and emotion. I'm not in the habit of assigning much credibility to either. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Chesapeake bay crossing at the bay-bridge tunnel (Norfolk). bridge is about 21 miles with 1 island and 2 tunnels (shipping lanes). dense fog. stop at the rest area on the norfolk side tunnel. deep throat fog horn tells of a ship approaching from seaside. it looks like a mountain as it becomes visable over the tunnel passage. what's that? look bayside... a SUB has timed his departure so that he passes between us and the tanker... only a sudden (even deeper) fog horn from him... the visability was such that we could see the sub for a total of about 1 minute. bye bye bliven *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I got to thinking this morning after getting a Bliven post in which he chided me about my sling psychrometer and the dangers to nearby paddlers who might not be wearing their hard hats. In the past I have preached about avoiding accidents (frequently a euphemism for stupidity or ignorance) as opposed to learning how to extricate yourself from them after they happen. This fog thing is a good example. Here is little quiz. This is an honour quiz. Do not get help nor use a reference book . DO NOT CLICK on the little book in the lower right hand corner of your screen. That's cheating. How many of you paddle where fog can be a problem? How many of you know that you paddle where fog can be a problem? How many of you carry a sling psychrometer in your boat. If you do not have sling psychrometer do you carry an accurate hygrometer, a thermometer and the dew point charts? Do you know how an why fog forms? Now for a couple of fog stories. Some years back we paddled the north shore of Superior. Spent three solid days in fog. How did we navigate? We didn't. Couldn't see the scenery so we camped. A couple of years later I paddled the same shore. Had two days of fog along a boring section of coast. How did I navigate? Didn't. Camped and read John "Ralston Saul's Voltaire's Bastards" (Some parts as boring as the scenery) Could have paddled using old paddling rule when traveling west to east on Superior, "Always keep the rocks on your left" but why bother? Many years ago paddled north shore of Georgian Bay with son. Heavy fog started rolling in. How did we navigate? Turned in to shore and stopped till afternoon. Cleared off into gorgeous day. Would have missed some pleasant scenery and my son explaining why his rock music was better than in my day. He thought Buddy Holly was a Christmas decoration. Last year fog set in on the morning I was to paddle home from the Great Lakes Sea Kayak Association's Spring meeting. One couple was going to the same put-in spot and had a GPS. They decided to paddle through the fog. Thought it might be a good opportunity to see how well a GPS works. It did and we got back just fine. Others arrived an hour later having paddled in clear conditions without aid of a GPS. HMMMM. What was the rush? Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: > > I got to thinking this morning after getting a Bliven post in which he > chided me about my sling psychrometer and the dangers to nearby paddlers > who might not be wearing their hard hats. [great fog stories snipped] > How many of you paddle where fog can be a problem? I do. > How many of you know that you paddle where fog can be a problem? I do. > How many of you carry a sling psychrometer in your boat. If you do not have > sling psychrometer do you carry an accurate hygrometer, a thermometer and > the dew point charts? Don't -- radiation fog is a minor issue where I paddle -- the main fog hazard is "sea fog" generated by an onshore-bound air mass, altered by passing over upwelling waters off the coast of Vancouver Island. > Do you know how and why fog forms? Yup. And I trust the weather radio to warn me when there is a strong likelihood of "sea fog" -- kind I need to worry about. When it's mega-thick, I don't paddle either. If I get caught in it, I want to know how to get from open water to a safe beach. Great fog stories, John. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>IMHO people who zoom in zero visibility are much more likely to >die from hitting another powerboat, sailboat, or structure >than they are to every hit/kill a kayaker/canoeist. Personally, >I tend to think natural selection will eliminate them long >before they do me any harm. In hundreds of miles of sailing in fog - my experience is that natural selection may take high speed fog travelers - but with victims. In a 28' sailing vessel in fog (with radar & GPS) we have had several close calls from high speed (approx 30 knots) power vessels. These experiences are off Cape Cod & coastal Maine. We may see them on radar well in advance, and call them on VHF. They often don't respond. At the noise level in those vessels, they will never hear an airhorn until too late. The only useful advice I can offer a fellow kayaker is to avoid areas where these power vessels are likely to be. I have unfortunately observed the following from power vessel skippers; that there is an inverse relationship between engine horsepower & IQ. Keith *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 10:07 AM 4/12/98 -0400, you wrote: > >I have unfortunately observed the following from power vessel skippers; >that there is an inverse relationship between engine horsepower & IQ. > >Keith > Talking to the skipper on a sailboat, I was noting that when negotiating power craft on the Columbia River, I navigate under the assumption that the pilot is either dead drunk, or really dead from a massive coronary and slumped over the wheel unconscious. The skipper's reply was, "Yeah, that's the way with those 'gin barges,' gotta assume they're bombed." So the "gin barge" tag has stuck in my head. I've seen a lot of very nice large boat owners, but mostly I see a lot of nautically clad party-goers with drinks in hand. Years of being a surviving pedestrian have taught me to yield the right-of-way --even when it's mine. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
From: R. Walker How many sea kayakers died last year as a result of collision? ------------------ i recall reading within the past year or two, that a tandem canoe was run over at night near Boston, Mass. i think that two paddlers died. The captain of the power boat was found to be *not* at fault because the canoe did not have adequate lights. =============== 7/93. Beaver Drops tree, kills canoeist. Woman struck in head on Brule River. Cloverland Township, (AP) - A 76-year old woman canoeing on the Brule River was killed when a tree that had been gnawed by a beaver fell and landed on her head, authorities say. The woman was paddling with her daughter about 1:45 p.m. Thursday in Cloverland Township when the tree fell, according to the Douglas county Sheriff's Department. The victim was pronounced dead at the scene. Her daughter was not hurt. Authorities didn't release the women's names pending notification of relatives. It was 'a freak of nature' accident, Sheriff Marvin Arneson said. Arneson said the poplar tree was about 18 inces in diameter and 30 to 40 feet tall. The chances of such an incident happening are so unlikely that a higher power must have been at work, Arneson said. 'Non-Christians say there is nothing out there that controls their lives,' he said. 'I believe there is a greater being who has control over whether we live or die. I think this situation proves it.' ============= From: R. Walker >>Unless one can answer those questions, the risk assessment is based on nothing but anectdotes and emotion. I'm not in the habit of assigning much credibility to either.>> i can't answer your questions... you know what's best for you. For me, John Winter's advice to avoid paddling in fog is appropriate for most situations. bye bye bliven *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 04:27 AM 4/10/98 -0700, dkruger_at_seasurf.com wrote: >I'm interested in anecdotal descriptions of crossings kayakers have >attempted under poor visibility (fog, mist, scudding clouds on the deck, >poor lighting, etc.)... I had the luck of being with an experienced kayaker on my first fog crossing. It was my first year of paddling and we had gone out for a 3 day paddle. At the beginning of day 3 we were about 15 miles from home and in thick fog. We wrote all of our headings on my chart before we started out. We had about 4 course changes before we would get to our first landing, an island about half way home. We made sure the long crossings (1 to 2 miles) had a big destination, like an island, while the short crossings sometimes had just a nun or bell as the mark. With my friend's experience, all marks were made and we came out of the fog just before the half way point. Since that first trip which, by the way, made me very, very nervous at the time, I've done a number of other crossings on my own or with less experienced paddlers. The most memorable was one at the start of a mostly foggy 3-day weekend. My partner and I were headed for a small island for our first night and when we got to the put-in there was dense fog. The first island that we would pass was just 1/4 mile away and we couldn't see it. We took headings for the two marks we needed and wrote them on my chart. The first mark was an island about a mile out and we hit it just as expected. The second was a further 3 miles with a smaller island off to our left about 2/3 of the way. As we headed out from our first mark to our second, we didn't realize that we were already in trouble. You see, I have a compass with every 20 degrees clearly marked with the degree number. We needed to maintain a heading of 230 degrees. I looked at the nearest marked degree tick, saw that it was 220 degrees, and headed for the unmarked tick on the compass that was to one side of the 220 degree tick. Unfortunately, I was on the WRONG side of 220 degrees. So, as we started out, our heading was 210 degrees rather than 230. We passed the smaller island to the left, not realizing that we were far too close to it. Time passed and we realized that we should have reached our destination by then. Very fortunately, there was a larger island behind the one we were looking for and we eventually came to it. After realizing what I had done, we found our way to a known point and then found our "missing" island. The lesson I learned: Be very, very careful with readings from a compass. If you're on an un-numbered tick, make sure the number you're applying to it is valid from both sides. If I'd done that, I would have realized that the mark I was heading on was between 220 and 200 on my compass and that surely was not the 230 degrees that I should have been on. Bill Ridlon Southern Maine Sea Kayaking Network *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 07:51 AM 4/12/98 -0400, "John Winters" wrote: > >In the past I have preached about avoiding accidents (frequently a >euphemism for stupidity or ignorance) as opposed to learning how to >extricate yourself from them after they happen. This fog thing is a good >example. In the past I've agreed with John on most paddling matters. Not this one, though. If you paddle a coast that can often have fog, you'd better know how to navigate in it. In my opinion it's like self and group rescues: You sure don't want to be in a position to need it but sometimes you don't have a choice. If you're not prepared for either rescuing yourself or dealing with fog, you're not adequately prepared for paddling at all. Bill Ridlon Southern Maine Sea Kayaking Network *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters asked: How many of you paddle where fog can be a problem? I do How many of you know that you paddle where fog can be a problem? I know How many of you carry a sling psychrometer in your boat. If you do not have sling psychrometer do you carry an accurate hygrometer, a thermometer and the dew point charts? I don't Do you know how an why fog forms? Yes I have paddled a bunch of hours on a reservoir that was constructed in order to provide water for cooling a nuclear power plant. If I go there when the air is cold and there is no breeze, I can encounter fog. I've also been there on a very hot summer day, no breeze, when an inversion of some kind produced something akin to fog. The lake isn't particularly large, but it has lots of arms, and getting disoriented in the fog isn't particularly difficult. Bob -------------------------------------------------- Robert C. Perkins, Ph.D. Associate Dean for Research and Planning Methodist College, Fayetteville, NC 28311 910-630-7037 rperkins_at_methodist.edu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Ari wrote; -(SNIP) >I am very interested in seeing the article...but how about the >novices - how do one teach an attitude? A good part of the rescue >stories I´ve read is about what people d i d after the trouble >stroke, which leads again stressing the technical side of matters. (SNIP) This is my favourite soap box. I believe this to be the major challenge for the industry. Currently there appears to be very little in the way of modifying behaviour among novice paddlers (or experienced paddlers for that matter). The basics of Sea kayaking (just going somewhere) are so easy to learn and the dangers are not apparent to the novice who has no understanding of weather etc.. At a major sea kayak symposium last year there were many sessions on rolls and rescues and not one session on weather or risk assessment. What kind of message does that pass along? I am not bright enough to figure out how attitudes can be changed but there are experts working on it and I suspect the next few years will bring some clever ways to teach people accident prevention. Incidentally, some time back on the CPA list I published a method of evaluating sea kayaking conditions (sort of an open water rating guide like the whitewater ratings of rapids) but it got lost in a computer crash. If anyone still has it in a file (I know, who would want to keep my stuff on file?) or knows of someone who does I would like to get a copy. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: > This is my favourite soap box. > I believe this to be the major challenge for the industry. Currently there > appears to be very little in the way of modifying behaviour among novice > paddlers (or experienced paddlers for that matter). > > The basics of Sea kayaking (just going somewhere) are so easy to learn and > the dangers are not apparent to the novice who has no understanding of > weather etc.. At a major sea kayak symposium last year there were many > sessions on rolls and rescues and not one session on weather or risk > assessment. What kind of message does that pass along? Some thots from a novice (I started last August). I agree in theory, but not necessarily in practice My life saving instructor 35 yrs ago started the course by saying that we would spend 80 or 90% of the course time learning to do what we should avoid doing at all costs, do only as a last resort, and hopefully never have to do -- namely, jump in the water and drag someone to shore. There are a thousand ways to avoid having someone in a drowning situation, and if they get to that state anyway, there are a thousand better alternatives to jumping in and dragging out. Nevertheless, we would spend most of our time learning that technique because it is difficult, hard to learn, and if attempted, needs to be done quickly, automatically, and with great skill and quick reflexes. Seems like Kayaking is similar. I realize as a novice that my most important task is to avoid trouble. So I started in August, paddled in lakes, stayed close to shore, always wore my PFD, bought a farmer john as soon as the water started getting cold, quit for the season when the water temp dropped into low 50's. Am now waiting for temp to get back there. I also bought and read and reread books by Hutchinson, Dowd, Seideman, and others. And read everything I could find on the web about sea kayaking. AND I drove 4 hours rt to take a course in rolling -- not a course in general safety. Why? Cause I figured I can not learn rolling by myself even if I spent a lifetime at it. (Actually, even with the course I did not learn to roll). But many of the safety things can be self taught. And the the things that can't probably require being out with an experienced paddler and cannot be taught in a course any more than read from a book. Going out with an experienced paddler is virtually impossible in my situation. I live in Coulee Dam, Washington 2 to 3 hours from the next nearest sea kayak to my knowledge. While the lakes here are wonderful for kayaking -- up to 150 miles long and 1 to several miles wide -- I have yet to see a kayak other than my own. I work Saturdays and Sundays, so even driving 2 hrs to Spokane or 4 hours to Seattle is not likely to find a yak buddy. And virtually all yak courses are taught on weekends. All of this is to say that there is more than one way to learn safety. And one way is to be self taught and learn gradually. I would also add that I have been a backpacker for about 30 years as well as a professional forester & wildlife biologist for most of that time. So I bring some outdoor skills and understanding with me -- as well as much ignorance. I wouldn't dream of going in the ocean or great lakes at this point in my education. Everyone comes to kayaking with their own skills and ignorance & will have their own direction for learning. Courses are merely one partial way. Incidentally, I started on the web after the great sponson spiff. But I still see the fall out (Radioactive Canadian Ballast Rocks keep landing near my computer ; > ) Couple of observations from one not tied up in the emotions of that debate 1) Having visited the sponson web site, it is obvious the maker has some problems relating to people. 2) Having spent a fair amount of time practicing paddle float rescues, I'd sure rather trust my life in a storm at sea to a sponson rather than a paddle float. From a complete novice it appears that an understandable personality problem is getting in the way of common sense safety in equipping boats and teaching rescue. Peace, Brian *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: >The basics of Sea kayaking (just going somewhere) are so easy to learn and >the dangers are not apparent to the novice who has no understanding of >weather etc.. At a major sea kayak symposium last year there were many >sessions on rolls and rescues and not one session on weather or risk >assessment. What kind of message does that pass along? In our local club (TCSKA), we are planning on holding some navigation get-togethers this summer. Another thing we are planning on doing is going out on the local lakes during really windy/stormy conditions and practicing solo and group rescues. Good practice for figuring out what to do when your handy paddle float is inflated and immediately blows away. I think another problem with rolling/rescue clinics is that rarely are you paddling a fully loaded boat with crap strewn all about the deck. A few weeks ago we practiced some rescues up on Superior to experience so real *cold* water conditions. -Patrick PS I love fog crossings. It's a great adrenaline rush to have no idea where the hell you are, just holding a bearing until you spot the tree line and realize that you have successfully made the crossing. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Brian wrote; >Some thots from a novice (I started last August). >I agree in theory, but not necessarily in practice >My life saving instructor 35 yrs ago started the course by saying that we would >spend 80 or 90% of the course time learning to do what we should avoid doing at >all costs, do only as a last resort, and hopefully never have to do -- namely, >jump in the water and drag someone to shore. There are a thousand ways to >avoid having someone in a drowning situation, and if they get to that state >anyway, there are a thousand better alternatives to jumping in and dragging >out. Nevertheless, we would spend most of our time learning that technique >because it is difficult, hard to learn, and if attempted, needs to be done >quickly, automatically, and with great skill and quick reflexes. (SNIP) I think, I may have failed to make myself clear. At no time have I ever said or implied that anyone should not learn rescue skills etc.. My argument is that the first priority is to learn accident prevention. One should not make the mistake of assuming that the time spent on a portion of a course indicates that it is the major priority. If anyone risked their life making a contact rescue when it was unnecessary in my RLSS course they were failed. Ditto when I instruct in first aid. I believe the the focus on rescues and not on accident prevention is a problem in sea kayaking. In my surveys I have discovered that few people know even the most basic methods of local weather prediction, chart reading or foul weather techniques and yet many of them can roll and have mounds of rescue gear on their boats. My example of the symposium was typical of this sport's focus. Lots of rescues and nothing on avoiding the need for rescues. Not one session on weather prediction. Not one session on risk assessment. Not one session on group decision making. Not one session on personal skills evaluation. But if you want to learn to roll, we got lots. We are continually admonished to learn to roll and use certain rescue equipment and yet rarely does one say, "Learn how to stay out of trouble." I can roll and even carry some of the rescue equipment but, as I have said before, all the first aid skills in the world are not half so useful as learning not to put your finger in the band saw." Can people be taught accident prevention? Absolutely. The problem may be that accident prevention isn't glamorous. Rolling and the gear is all very sexy. Staying ashore when one should isn't sexy at all. (Unless you have the right companion). Besides, the gear you need is in your head and no one can see how safe a paddler you are. More cynicism from the head cynic. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: [big snip] > I believe the the focus on rescues and not on accident prevention is a > problem in sea kayaking. In my surveys I have discovered that few people > know even the most basic methods of local weather prediction, chart reading > or foul weather techniques and yet many of them can roll and have mounds of > rescue gear on their boats. [snip] > > We are continually admonished to learn to roll and use certain rescue > equipment and yet rarely does one say, "Learn how to stay out of trouble." > > I can roll and even carry some of the rescue equipment but, as I have said > before, all the first aid skills in the world are not half so useful as > learning not to put your finger in the band saw." > > Can people be taught accident prevention? Absolutely. The problem may be > that accident prevention isn't glamorous. Rolling and the gear is all very > sexy. Staying ashore when one should isn't sexy at all. (Unless you have > the right companion). Besides, the gear you need is in your head and no one > can see how safe a paddler you are. Well put, John. I think you nailed it: accident prevention is not glamorous. The main satisfaction in doing the headwork and reading necessary to elude weather systems and overly-gnarly currents comes on the intellectual side. And, there's darn little glory in it. The "story value" in bragging that "... we stayed ashore and avoided the thrashing those brash idiots got ..." is pretty minimal. Only those who enjoy mapping out strategy and tactics will get a kick from out-foxing Ma Nature. There is probably a little generational stuff in here, also. When I was younger (and slightly more buff) I got off on the adrenaline rush of a "close call." Not such a thrill any more. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR old bull; not a young bull *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: > rescues. Not one session on weather prediction. Not one session on risk > assessment. Not one session on group decision making. Not one session on > personal skills evaluation. But if you want to learn to roll, we got lots. > > We are continually admonished to learn to roll and use certain rescue > equipment and yet rarely does one say, "Learn how to stay out of trouble." Well, I agree, that sounds like the sport has a problem. I think I just felt, as an end user of the courses -- rather than a teacher -- that I have a very limited ability to take a course due to distance and weekend work. Thus, on the rare ocassion I take one, it is probably going to be to learn a specific skill that is totally foreign to me, like rolling or bracing, and that I am unlikely to figure out on my own. Things like avoiding bad weather, knowing my ability level, navigation, hypothermia, etc are things which I might pick up on my own over time -- especially since they are related to other life experiences and knowledge. If there are other folks like me, then perhaps the demand for those courses is relatively low. But if I went to a big symposium -- I'd sure like to hear about those things from the experts too. Nothing beats learning from an experienced person -- whether in or out of a formal course or workshop. By the way, another good source of education for us slow learners is sales people in the shops. I've been impressed with their knowledge level as well as with their humility when they didn't know things. And I felt priviledged to be waited on by boat designers a couple of times! Peace, Brian *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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