Here's an interesting site: http://www.pinewateradventures.com/journal.htm This fella is paddling from Duluth MN to Churchill Manitoba over the next few years. But I must take issue with part of his journal, because I have nothing better to do right now. Please click on May 2 for his journal entry for that day. Gripes: Photo 1) What is described as a "small boat access" is actually, to the best of my (limited) knowledge, private property. Maybe he knows the owner and had permission to use that spot. But, since the owner leases the building there to a jetski rental operation, he is morally obligated to use the REAL public access 100 yards east and disassociate himself from such riff-raff. Photo 2) Here we see him hugging his wife goodbye. It should be obvious to any astute CNN subscriber that that is not his wife, but is in fact Monica Lewinsky. Photos 5-8) Here we see him paddling out into the ship canal in the (and I quote), "8-10 foot swells with 3-4 foot chop". Ok, maybe the hug from Monica had his head spinning a bit, but come on! a) if there were 8-10 foot swells, they would be surging over the top of the concrete walls on the sides of the ship canal, and there would be huge sprays coming off the lighthouse at the end of the the west "pier". There wouldnt BE a journal entry for May 3. b) he never would have made it out of the canal because they would be in the 10-15 foot range at the mouth, and steeper than hell. These look like your average garden variety 3-5 footers to me, none of them are coming anywhere near the top of the ship canal walls. Tis true the canal can be very tricky even with 5 footers, but 10 footers these are NOT! Or 8. Anyway, I'm jealous about his trip and I wish him good luck. I think we all exaggerate OUR experience over someone elses. Earlier this year I was out playing in some actual 8 footers with 30++ knot winds (and I videotaped some-when we have 8 footers they are steep as hell and its a wall of foam). It was more a matter of being played WITH than anything else, and after an hour of getting blown and slammed around, we quit just as two others were arriving. I asked one of them later how it went. He said they didnt stay out long because it started to get gnarly. My jaw dropped. >>STARTED<< to get gnarly??!!! STARTED????? I guess his experience was more gnarly than mine... And here's a semi-neat site for viewing aerial photos of your next USA trip. Semi-neat because its a real pain to find the location you want. http://www.terraserver.microsoft.com/ Wayne *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
wayne steffens wrote: > ...<snip>... > But I must take issue with part of his journal, because I have nothing > better to do right now. Please click on May 2 for his journal entry for > that day. > ...<snip>... > Photos 5-8) Here we see him paddling out into the ship canal in the (and I > quote), "8-10 foot swells with 3-4 foot chop". Ok, maybe the hug from > Monica had his head spinning a bit, but come on! > ... This common tendency to overestate the height of waves has led to the development of what some of us refer to as "standard reporting height", which is the actual height multiplied by a fudge factor. This fudge factor is usually about 2, but among modest paddlers it might be as low as 1.67, or--for certain immodest groups--as high as 3. (We are working on a common standard.) Among other things, this helps to explain how one's fellow paddlers can refer to "4-foot waves" on a day when the waves are never too high to see over. They are not lying--they are simply using "standard reporting height". Another tendency is to diminish the wave heights that others have experienced when looking at their photos or videos. One might, for example, describe the sea state in the above photos as "sea rippled". :-) Then again, what do you expect from a mere *lake*? (Yea, yea--I've heard of the Edmund Fitzgerald. She must have been seriously overloaded...) Dan Hagen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dan Hagen wrote: > Th[e] common tendency to overestate the height of waves has led to the > development of what some of us refer to as "standard reporting height", > which is the actual height multiplied by a fudge factor. This fudge > factor is usually about 2, but among modest paddlers it might be as low > as 1.67, or--for certain immodest groups--as high as 3. (We are working > on a common standard.) Among other things, this helps to explain how > one's fellow paddlers can refer to "4-foot waves" on a day when the > waves are never too high to see over. They are not lying--they are > simply using "standard reporting height". Hagen, you've done it again! I've been puzzled for a long time about why my paddling companions habitually over-estimate swell heights. You've explained another foible of human behavior! What do they put in the water where you live? We could use some of that in our drinking water ... The SRH factor down here is often as high as 3. One of the worst offenders is an oceanographer with a freaking masters degree, who regularly makes out swells we can see over as 4-footers. Reminds me of Dr. Science: "... he knows more than YOU do ..." -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR sea kayaker -- and chemist; thank God I'm not an oceanographer! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Kruger wrote: > ...<snip>... > What do they put in the water where you live? > ... Oh, the usual stuff. Up high, glacial flour and silt. A bit further down, fish feces and decaying Salmon. Below that, cow dung (complete with e-coli), effluents from septic-system overflow, urban/suburban run-off (containing lawn chemicals, petroleum products, etc.), and lately (from who knows where) cryptosporidium. Finally, a brew of dioxins and other chemicals and organics. Mix well and dump into the bay... :-( But hey--it could be worse. At least dead whales in our area don't need to be disposed of in toxic waste dumps (as has been necessary on occasion in the northeast, on the St. Lawrence). Nothing to grin about here. Dan Hagen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 11:54 PM 8/26/98 -0700, Dan Hagen wrote: > >This common tendency to overestate the height of waves has led to the >development of what some of us refer to as "standard reporting height", >which is the actual height multiplied by a fudge factor. This fudge >factor is usually about 2, but among modest paddlers it might be as low >as 1.67, or--for certain immodest groups--as high as 3. (We are working >on a common standard.) Among other things, this helps to explain how >one's fellow paddlers can refer to "4-foot waves" on a day when the >waves are never too high to see over. They are not lying--they are >simply using "standard reporting height". I know people whose standard reporting height X fudge factor = less than 1. I'm always impressed by the "2-3" footers that obscure my view of the sky. It's a darn good thing they have me along to report things accurately. > >Another tendency is to diminish the wave heights that others have >experienced when looking at their photos or videos. One might, for >example, describe the sea state in the above photos as "sea rippled". >:-) Then again, what do you expect from a mere *lake*? (Yea, yea--I've >heard of the Edmund Fitzgerald. She must have been seriously >overloaded...) Ok pal, thems surfing words. You've got two months to get ready for the November gales. Unless they come early. Dont forget to bring your S*******. ;-) I'm sure we'll see some 30 footers.... Wayne *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Wayne wrote (in defense of his local pond): > Ok pal, thems surfing words. You've got two months to get ready for the > November gales. Unless they come early. Dont forget to bring your S*******. > ;-) I'm sure we'll see some 30 footers.... You mean to tell me that you have to wait until November to get good surf?!? (Well I suppose that makes sense--it is just a lake, after all.) Out here, in "sea"-kayaking territory, we have gale-force winds quite regularly along the west coast of Vancouver Island (even in the summer). :-) Actually, from your descriptions of Lake Superior, I had better bring my whitewater kayak, helmet, and full body armor (the latter for protection against the bow of your Romany as it surfs wildly out of control--sans Wayne, of course). :-) :-) Dan Hagen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
This taken from today's report on Bonnie. AT 0300 UTC AUG 27 HURRICANE BONNIE 34.2N 77.7W NEARLY STATIONARY. MAXIMUM SUSTAINED WINDS 85 KT GUSTING TO 105 KT. HURRICANE FORCE WINDS OR HIGHER WITHIN 100 NM NE...75 NM SE...50 NM SW...50 NM NW QUADRANTS. TROPICAL STORM FORCE WINDS OR HIGHER WITHIN 175 NM NE...200 NM SE...100 NM SW...75 NM NW QUADRANTS. SEAS 12 FT OR GREATER etc. etc. If it takes a hurricane operating over the open Atlantic to produce those 12 fit or greater waves then what kind of storm produced those 15 foot swells this guy was paddling in? According to the Institute of Oceanographic Sciences it takes a wind of 35 knots blowing over a fetch of about 600 nautical miles blowing for more than six hours to produce a 15 foot wave. Since swells diminish in height with time those must have been biggies when they were formed. People over estimate waves because of the angles at which they view them. When you are looking down into a wave it always looks huge. When you write about them they get even bigger (something to do with distance from the wave). The rule is to never let the truth get in the way of a good story. Anyone remember those six foot waves the power boats made in Georgian Bay? Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Okay, I admit it. I don't know how to measure a wave. Is the "height" of a wave the vertical distance from the bottom of the trough to the top of the crest? Or is it from the mean? Or what? What's the real technical answer? For what it's worth, I've paddled some humoungous waves in the Baja that were the <length> of two or three kayaks from the crest to the trough, and the guy paddling with me could have been in Nova Scotia for all we could see of each other. But those were just big rolling hills --- no problem whatsoever, as long as they weren't breaking at the top! They were a kick! Those swells could have been eight or nine feet in vertical measurement --- or maybe more --- but at least 80 feet crest to crest. (And that's with a fudge factor of 1.0! Honest.) I've also paddled in some classic "two foot" clapotis, 50 feet off the seawall at the Naval Academy in Annapolis on a powerboat-churned summer afternoon and didn't know if I was going to survive! So what's the official way of measuring stuff like this? (And does it really matter?) Jack *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com wrote: > > Okay, I admit it. I don't know how to measure a wave. Is the "height" of a > wave the vertical distance from the bottom of the trough to the top of the > crest? Or is it from the mean? Or what? What's the real technical answer? [snip] > So what's the official way of measuring stuff like this? (And does it really > matter?) Well, probably the most popular method is crest-to-trough, at least for people who surf. And for surfer dudes and dudettes, that would be the maximum height, just as the wave breaks. The swells you mentioned in Baja, which you estimated as 8 footers, would be larger than that if they formed surf. As swells reach water much shallower than the distance between crests (the wavelength), their wavetrains begin to shorten the distance between crests, and at a depth about twice their height, they "peak up," breaking at a water depth of about 1.3 times their height. So, a wave's "height" will depend on where in its lifetime you encounter it. If you get interested in this stuff, Joq, locate "Waves and Beaches," by Willard Bascom, Anchor/Doubleday, 1980, ISBN 0385148445. This is the classic treatise (for the lay public, anyway), and is written in very readable style. Probably out of print, but any decent earth-science section in a public library should have it. You would have liked Bascom. He and his cohorts did leadline and transit surveys of many high-energy Pacific beaches, surfing "double overhead" stuff (surferese for 12 footers) in Army Dukw's -- amphibious vehicles dating fromn WW II. Nowadays, we'd call Bascom a s**tkicker. In those days, they did not know any better. (No PFD's, no wet suits or dry suits, just lots of chutzpah!) -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR very ancient surfer -- when boards were made of balsa *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Speaking of the gales on our little lake -- how many of you Paddlewise folks are going to be at Gales of November this year? Always nice to attach faces to the names. -Patrick Dan Hagen wrote: >Wayne wrote (in defense of his local pond): > >> Ok pal, thems surfing words. You've got two months to get ready for the >> November gales. Unless they come early. Dont forget to bring your S*******. >> ;-) I'm sure we'll see some 30 footers.... > >You mean to tell me that you have to wait until November to get good >surf?!? (Well I suppose that makes sense--it is just a lake, after >all.) Out here, in "sea"-kayaking territory, we have gale-force winds >quite regularly along the west coast of Vancouver Island (even in the >summer). :-) > >Actually, from your descriptions of Lake Superior, I had better bring my >whitewater kayak, helmet, and full body armor (the latter for protection >against the bow of your Romany as it surfs wildly out of control--sans >Wayne, of course). :-) :-) > >Dan Hagen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, 27 Aug 1998, Dan Hagen wrote: > > Dave Kruger wrote: > > > ...<snip>... > > What do they put in the water where you live? > > ... > > Oh, the usual stuff. Up high, glacial flour and silt. A bit further > down, fish feces and decaying Salmon. Below that, cow dung (complete > with e-coli), effluents from septic-system overflow, urban/suburban > run-off (containing lawn chemicals, petroleum products, etc.), and > lately (from who knows where) cryptosporidium. Finally, a brew of > dioxins and other chemicals and organics. Mix well and dump into the > bay... :-( > > But hey--it could be worse. At least dead whales in our area don't need > to be disposed of in toxic waste dumps (as has been necessary on > occasion in the northeast, on the St. Lawrence). Nothing to grin about > here. > > Dan Hagen no, you guys use 400 pounds [180Kg] of dynomite, and blow it sky high ;-) mark #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com----http://www.diac.com/~zen/mark ---- # mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/paddler [index to club websites i administer] Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page -- Fortune: "In a world without fences, who needs 'Gates'" -- Scott McNealy "In a world without walls, who needs 'Windows'" -- Dave Livigni *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 09:06 AM 8/27/98 -0700, Dan, in defense of his undrinkable brine, wrote: >Wayne wrote (in defense of his local pond): > >> Ok pal, thems surfing words. You've got two months to get ready for the >> November gales. Unless they come early. Dont forget to bring your S*******. >> ;-) I'm sure we'll see some 30 footers.... > >You mean to tell me that you have to wait until November to get good >surf?!? (Well I suppose that makes sense--it is just a lake, after >all.) Out here, in "sea"-kayaking territory, we have gale-force winds >quite regularly along the west coast of Vancouver Island (even in the >summer). :-) Actually, this has been a banner year for surf. Thank you, El Nino! I've been out at least 10-15 times and I missed a lot while I was out of town. But Sept-November is usually the best (or worst). But I wouldnt have it any other way. If we had surf-on-demand, there would be too many people running around going "Yo, dude, that was really FRESH!" and we cant have that. And our surf is rarely "clean". We had a few days this year with beautiful, well spaced, clean, spilling waves with nice long rides but thats the exception. Often they are dumping, converging, short wavelength, wind whipped affairs especially when they get bigger. But that just adds to the fun as far as I'm concerned. One of these days I'd like to go hit the coast and see what its like to actually have recovery time between waves. BTW, why do they call it the "Pacific" Ocean? > >Actually, from your descriptions of Lake Superior, I had better bring my >whitewater kayak, helmet, and full body armor (the latter for protection >against the bow of your Romany as it surfs wildly out of control--sans >Wayne, of course). :-) :-) Well, I'm already sans Romany :( This fall I will be sans Sirius. :-) There are usually a number of fully armored whitewater boats out there (or whiteys, as we say, staring down our upturned noses) when it gets bigger. They float over the waves as we flog our way through. Since I'll be paddling a new boat this fall, I have an excuse to swim not that I need one. I'm sure that an ocean paddler would never ever come out of their boat in our wimpy fall surf. ;-) hehehe But whitewater/surf kayaks dont count. In order to earn any points, your boat must be as innapropriate for surf as possible. Any sit-inside sea kayak at least 16 feet long qualifies. Its no fair to use boats that are actually DESIGNED for surf. That takes all the challenge out of it, plus, I dont have one. Wayne *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Wayne wisecracked: > BTW, why do they call it the "Pacific" Ocean? That's simple. Because it is always so peaceful and gentle. It is a *placid* ocean. We never get the sort of monstrous waves that you get on your lake. Check out the following, which shows the pathetic little waves at a surfing spot in Northern California (my old neighborhood): http://www.mavsurfer.com/video/video.html (If you don't have video capability you can still enjoy the stills.) On a serious note, a kayaker got killed at this site earlier this year, on a day when it wasn't really going off. While Dave Kruger could probably have handled this stuff during his surfing days, it is probably a good thing that most of us are far too chicken to get anywhere near it. Q: When can you get waves with a "standard reporting height" of 50 feet without a hurricane? A: When you have the right reef! When those big old swells begin to feel the bottom they do some interesting things... Dan Hagen, in search of a perfectly formed 3-4 foot wave. (That's "3-to-4", *not* 34...) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dan Hagen wrote: > > [snip] Check out the following, which shows the pathetic little > waves at a surfing spot in Northern California (my old neighborhood): > > http://www.mavsurfer.com/video/video.html [snip] > On a serious note, a kayaker got killed at this site earlier this year, > on a day when it wasn't really going off. > > While Dave Kruger could probably have handled this stuff during his > surfing days, it is probably a good thing that most of us are far too > chicken to get anywhere near it. [snip] You mean Dave the water chicken? Hewho quailed at waves over 6 feet in height? > Dan Hagen, in search of a perfectly formed 3-4 foot wave. > (That's "3-to-4", *not* 34...) Now we're talkin'! Give me that nice slow peelin' right. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR surfer of very short waves *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 09:59 PM 8/27/98 -0700, Dan Hagen wrote: >Wayne wisecracked: > >> BTW, why do they call it the "Pacific" Ocean? > >That's simple. Because it is always so peaceful and gentle. It is a >*placid* ocean. We never get the sort of monstrous waves that you get >on your lake. Check out the following, which shows the pathetic little >waves at a surfing spot in Northern California (my old neighborhood): Easy big fella. What happened to the smiley faces? ;-) ;-) > >http://www.mavsurfer.com/video/video.html > >(If you don't have video capability you can still enjoy the stills.) Cool pics. That surfer must be really really short to make the wave look so big. ;-) > >On a serious note, a kayaker got killed at this site earlier this year, >on a day when it wasn't really going off. Thats a shame. One shouldnt underestimate any large body of water, and I certainly dont. I have the greatest respect for what they can do. Unfortunately people do underestimate them, and (apparently) experienced people die even on puny Lake Michigan. I expect Superior will start exacting a toll as it sees increased use, too. The average paddler (myself included) doesnt need anything more than some unexpected 5-6 foot waves to put them at serious risk of the Great Beyond. I've crossed Lake Superior in a gale with 20 foot waves, and crossed (the relatively protected) Georgia Strait in a Hurricane, neither time in kayak, and theres no comparison. That is to say, theres no point in comparison. Both can be deadly, and dead is dead is dead. I have great respect for, and fear of, both. > >While Dave Kruger could probably have handled this stuff during his >surfing days, it is probably a good thing that most of us are far too >chicken to get anywhere near it. I can tell you which direction I would be heading if I saw that wave, and it wouldnt be towards it! > >Q: When can you get waves with a "standard reporting height" of 50 feet >without a hurricane? > >A: When you have the right reef! When those big old swells begin to >feel the bottom they do some interesting things... With a maximum recorded wave height of only 31 feet, our pond certainly cant match up to that. Personally, when the waves get over about 6-8 feet on any body of water, I'd rather be anywhere else. This is why I carry a spare paddle. If I cant get off the water, I can at least knock myself unconcious. ;-) > >Dan Hagen, in search of a perfectly formed 3-4 foot wave. >(That's "3-to-4", *not* 34...) Me too. I'll take them in any form though. Wayne *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
wayne steffens wrote: >But whitewater/surf kayaks dont count. In order to earn any points, your >boat must be as innapropriate for surf as possible. Any sit-inside sea >kayak at least 16 feet long qualifies. Its no fair to use boats that are >actually DESIGNED for surf. That takes all the challenge out of it, plus, I >dont have one. Right on Wayne. If you can manage to surf in a GTS, you can surf in *anything*. We're thinking of renting plastic boats for Gales (at the return counter "Gee, I don't know what happened, I was just on Lake Calhoun, really."). -Patrick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Oh Dude, I just got a rodeo boat to shread Hurry-cane Bonnie with.. Are you sayin' I'm not happenin' .....again? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dan said... >That's simple. Because it is always so peaceful and gentle. It is a >*placid* ocean. We never get the sort of monstrous waves that you get >on your lake. Not sure wich lake you are talking about, but I seen some wacky waves on the pacific ocean, both sides of it... > >Dan Hagen, in search of a perfectly formed 3-4 foot wave. >(That's "3-to-4", *not* 34...) Have you been to Long beach [Vancouver island, BC, Canada] they get some realllll nice waves there, took my surf class there, it was a surfing good time... You did mention the west coast of the island before, I think the lower 1/2 from barkley sound to Sooke/Victoria has great surfing possibilities... Now the best kayak surf waves I seen was on the other side of the pond, China beach has great waves in December/january, and being a sandy shore, they are quite evenly timed and such... 450 kms suth of there on the north side of Hom Gom peninsula is the country's best surf area, but it is reefy and rocky, not baby bottom smooth like china beach... By the way, I am putting together a bunch of tx for a spring trip to Vietnam, cheao like borsh, 3 weeks [feb21 to march 10] looks like under $ 500.00USD return from Seattle... Will be building S & G yaks from dec 5 to then, so we can have a fleet awaiting the folks ... Just though I'd trow this in as a tease... 94 days to go, 94 days to go... to h&_at_#*l with the snow, I'll be in the sun having loads of fun... 94 days to go ... somehow, this litle refrain has been in my head full time for 1 week already... no idea why... Yours naturally sylvio lamarche Wycliffe organic gardens & Exotic locales all over the globe *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Jack wrote; >Okay, I admit it. I don't know how to measure a wave. Is the "height" of a >wave the vertical distance from the bottom of the trough to the top of the >crest? Or is it from the mean? Or what? What's the real technical answer? Wave height is the vertical distance from the trough to the crest. Deep water waves (depth of water 25 times the wave length) break at length to height ratios of approximately 7:1. Sometimes they break at more than 10:1 because of wind and current action. Waves in shallow water get steeper and higher until they break. Most swells (as opposed to new waves) have length to height ratios of 20:1 or more. Does it matter? Possibly. The size, direction, period and steepness of waves can be useful in predicting changing weather as well as in navigating. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 07:41 AM 8/28/98 -0400, John Winters wrote: >Jack wrote; > > > >>Okay, I admit it. I don't know how to measure a wave. > >Wave height is the vertical distance from the trough to the crest. > >Cheers, >John Winters >Redwing Designs >Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft >http://home.ican.net/~735769/. Our weather man says the true wave height is from sea level to the top of the wave and the vertical distance from the trough to the crest is twice the height. But when are weather men or women right more than 50% of the time or less????? Dana Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
If true wave height is from sea level to the top of the wave, then us mid-westerners are paddling some awful big waves. That makes that 18 inch chop yesterday a 565 foot wave. ;0 > >Our weather man says the true wave height is from sea level to the top of >the wave and the vertical distance from the trough to the crest is twice >the height. But when are weather men or women right more than 50% of the >time or less????? > >Dana ,,, (o o) ==================oOO--(_)--OOo========================== Bob Washburn whiterabbit_at_iw.edwpub.com or rwashbu_at_siue.edu The only difference between a rut and a grave is the depth. ========================================================= *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
right on dude ! surfs up Dana At 09:18 AM 8/29/98 -0500, Bob Washburn wrote: >If true wave height is from sea level to the top of the wave, then us >mid-westerners are paddling some awful big waves. That makes that 18 inch >chop yesterday a 565 foot wave. ;0 >> >>Our weather man says the true wave height is from sea level to the top of >>the wave and the vertical distance from the trough to the crest is twice >>the height. But when are weather men or women right more than 50% of the >>time or less????? >> >>Dana > > ,,, > (o o) >==================oOO--(_)--OOo========================== > Bob Washburn >whiterabbit_at_iw.edwpub.com or rwashbu_at_siue.edu >The only difference between a rut and a grave is the depth. >========================================================= > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> >Wave height is the vertical distance from the trough to the crest. > > > >Cheers, > >John Winters > >Redwing Designs > >Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft > >http://home.ican.net/~735769/. > > > Our weather man says the true wave height is from sea level to the top of > the wave and the vertical distance from the trough to the crest is twice > the height. But when are weather men or women right more than 50% of the > time or less????? > > Dana How about sea _surface_ to the top of the wave? :-) This is the height that Hawaiian surfers give. A Hawaiian surfer told me that Hawaiians scoff at the heights given by mainlanders and consider them great exaggerations because they measure the wave height from sea surface, not from the trough. So I guess it depends on your culture. But it can get confusing. I always have to clarify when discussing wave height occurring in Hawaii as to whether the height being referred to is Hawaiian height or Howlie :-) When a Hawaiian says the waves are at 10 to 15 foot... us mainlanders can anticipate about 15 to 25 foot (from the trough). I would like to know if NOAA gives wave height from trough to crest or sea surface to crest in readings from the buoys. I'll see what I can find out. Cheers, Jackie awww, whaddya worried 'bout, it's only two feet tall... / / crest -> _at_ _at__at__at__at__at__at__at__at__at_ y'",o _at_ _at__at__at_ _at__at__at_ _at__at__at_ _at_ _at__at_``` (_at___C _at__at_ _at__at__at_ _at__at__at__at__at__at_ ```~. [x|||x] ____ _at__at__at_ _at__at_ _at__at__at_ `~. _at_V[__x__}V_at_========<____) _at_ _at__at__at_ _at__at__at__at__at__at__at_ `` ( ^ ) _at__at_ _at__at__at_ _at__at_ ~~~ `~ <- sea surface _at__at_ _at__at__at_ _at__at_ _at_ \ _at__at__at__at_ _at__at_ _at_ _at_ _at__at_ \ _at__at__at__at__at_ _at__at__at__at_ _at_ _at__at__at_ \ _at__at__at__at__at_ _at__at__at__at__at__at_ _at_ _at_ _at__at__at_ \ _at__at__at_ _at_ _at__at_ _at__at_ _at__at_ \ _at__at__at__at__at__at_ ) \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ uhhh ohhhhh.... / \ / \ / \ ,.o., / \ d O b / \ _\ /_ / ___ \ {x|||x} / ____ (____>=======_at_V{ _x_ }V_at_=======<____) \ ( ^ ) / `~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~' <- trough /\ / \ /\ ,,___,~~~~' `~~' `~~~.__ /} <, ~_at_ ```~~.__/ } `vvvvvvvv, )))) o __ ( ^^^^^^" ___.~~' \ } `~~~~~~~~\ )~~~~~~''' o \} \_/ o o o jf *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
They do. Because that is the definition of wave height... whether it is the wave motion across the surface of the water, electromagnetic such as light waves, radio waves or whether it is sound waves. I don't have any idea how the weatherman got confused on the issue, perhaps something he may have remembered from calculating wave energies as a consequence of wave interations. One of the problems for the kayaker is that waves don't just come from one direction... waves, even from the same direction vary in heigt, speed and energy. It's often a mix of recent wind driven waves plus swell from dissapting waves. The bouy however, doesn't know this. It can only measure vertical movement. Robert >I would like to know if NOAA gives wave height from trough to crest >or sea surface to crest in readings from the buoys. I'll see what >I can find out. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 09:18 8/29/98 -0500, Bob Washburn <whiterabbit_at_iw.edwpub.com> wrote: > > >If true wave height is from sea level to the top of the wave, then us >mid-westerners are paddling some awful big waves. That makes that 18 inch >chop yesterday a 565 foot wave. ;0 >> i just surfed a 7500ft wave this morning then ;-) >>Our weather man says the true wave height is from sea level to the top of >>the wave and the vertical distance from the trough to the crest is twice >>the height. But when are weather men or women right more than 50% of the >>time or less????? >> >>Dana mark #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com-------------------------------------- mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/paddler [index of Paddling websites I manage] Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page #-Fortune: "In a world without fences, who needs 'Gates'" -- Scott McNealy, CEO Sun Microsystems "In a world without walls, who needs 'Windows'" -- Dave Livigni *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
---John Winters wrote--- >People over estimate waves because of the angles at which they view them. >When you are looking down into a wave it always looks huge. When you write >about them they get even bigger (something to do with distance from the >wave). Very interesting. I am sure, but don't know how, that this somehow relates to the braveness of my 7 year old son. In Yellowstone last week, after reading all the "Many people have been gored by Buffalo..." signs, we spotted a resting buffalo no more than 50 feet away. My son actually started to levitate above the ground as the flight instinct set in - I'm talking near panic here. My son became increasingly more brave with each step away from the behometh. The same bravery was exhibited earlier at Buffalo Jump State Park in Montana. The rattlesnake signs rattled my son. It didn't help that all the grass hoppers there kind of sounded like rattlesnakes. We did encounter a real rattlesnake that tweaked some nerves - we didn't actually see it, but we could definately hear it. It was at least twenty yards below us in a tiny gulley. As we were driving away my son was talking about how rattlesnakes didn't bother him - yeah right! >The rule is to never let the truth get in the way of a good story. >Anyone remember those six foot waves the power boats made in Georgian Bay? Judging from my sons reactions, story telling is just something that is hardwired into some of us. Brian. -- ================================================================ | Brian Heifner | Email: bheifner_at_rational.com | | Sr. Technical Writer | Tel: 503-748-6743 | | Rational Software Corporation | | ================================================================ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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