Possibly the reason for people not being interested in weather instruction has to do with its complexity and the tendency of instructors to use unfamiliar terms and concepts. It may not be weather that is boring but instructors that are boring. Here is something from my web page on the topic that some might find useful. >Instant Weather Prediction Knowing if weather conditions will improve or remain constant can be useful but not essential knowledge since neither case will increase your risk. You must know, however, if the weather will deteriorate. Formal weather reports provide a useful general overview of conditions but they cover wide areas and lack sensitivity to local conditions. Despite these drawbacks, believe a bad weather forecast and plan accordingly even if it looks good in your vicinity. You may know more about conditions near you but the weather bureau knows more about what you cannot see. You can make the following observable signs of deteriorating weather from your location. To make your local forecast you will need only one piece of equipment - a barometer. A nice combination watch and barometer is available from Casio and Airguide makes a cheap barometer that, when protected from water, works well enough. Both provide enough accuracy for your needs. A sling psychrometer for predicting fog comes in handy and you can make one yourself very inexpensively. The following should help you make useful local weather forecasts; Present weather will turn worse if: Cumulus clouds grow larger and towering Stratus clouds move in under cirrus clouds The barometer falls steadily. A rapid fall of 0.06 inches per hour or more indicates a rapid worsening and slow fall 0.50 or less a slow worsening Sun becomes fuzzy looking and moon haloed or fuzzy Clouds thicken and wind increases Temperature unusually high or low for time of year Wind backing (shifting counterclockwise I.e. from SW to S to E) Line of heavy dark clouds from the west No one sign constitutes an absolute indication of bad weather but two or more will. If you always error on the safe side, your paddling will be safe and fun. >End of quote from web site< I learned these weather signs (in a more folksy way) from the watermen of the Chesapeake Bay long before the days of satellites and weather radio. (What I have here I borrowed in modified form from Jeff Markell's "The Sailors Weather Guide") These watermen, many of whom could not swim and never wore lifejackets or had any safety devices beyond a pole to scoop the careless out of the water had to be much more cautious than we do today. A mistake had serious consequences. While I do not advocate ignoring the advantages of the wonderful safety gear and gadgets available today, keep in mind that we once did without them by being more prudent. I suppose I lack tolerance for paddlers who seek the quick fix or want some one else to tell them what is going to happen (maybe so they can sue if the weather doesn't turn out the way the forecast predicted). Learning weather signs was a basic part of learning to sail many years ago. Most books on learning to sail had chapters devoted to the topic. Today sea kayaking books devote a few pages to it and tell you to tune in your radio. To my mind we lose a more intimate relationship with our environment by not learning about weather. I cannot recall one book on sea kayaking that says anything about the sheer beauty of weather at sea. (If I missed one be sure to let me know) Perhaps I watched too many re-runs of Victory at Sea but to this day all the whales and icebergs in the world can't hold candle to the power and beauty of a storm at sea. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 12/12/98 7:12:52 PM EST, dkruger_at_pacifier.com writes: << Maybe ACA/BCU should offer "weather seminars" as an adjunct to their more physical skills trainings >> Sounds like you have the knowledge to teach your local club. Why abdicate this to ACA/BCU dogma. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dave wrote; (SNIP) >Learning how to stay out of bad weather isn't sexy, and does not make for >attractive videos. That said, I would not lean on ACA or BCU too hard. I >suspect words to the wise and some practical instruction on procedures for >accessing local forecasts would give seminar participants at least a "nuts >and bolts" knowledge -- enough to get 'em thinking about weather and how to >anticipate the envelope of possibilities the forecast suggests. And, it >might be unreasonable to expect much more out of intensive ACA/BCU >seminars. > (Large SNIP) about how one has to keep mentioning weather to get it across) This is exactly my complaint. I have not heard of a paddling course that reinforces the instruction (when they even bother to to give it) by reviewing the topic frequently through out the course. If instructors can spend hours on rolling then they should be able to spend hours on weather. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 12/12/98 3:11:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, abhunt_at_earthlink.net writes: << As I mentioned some time back, few kayaking courses cover weather awareness in much detail (based on my own experience and my survey on the topic) . No doubt there will be some content in the ACA course on weather but the list Ray gave us suggests its importance (not much) to the course. No doubt accident prevention lacks the glamour of rolling, expeditions, surf and traditional skills but it seems to me to that bland old keeping out of trouble should be a major topic. >> You are correct that accident prevention lacks the glamor of other topics. So does practicing strokes. I have offered a strokes workshop to focus on proper form and efficiency of the different paddle strokes and no one ever signs up. I believe the same would hold true for a weather forecasting and/or accident prevention workshop. A course on weather forecasting and accident prevention will not be able to stand on it's own (people will not sign up for it) so it will just be a portion of another course. As it stands now, there are only three (sea kayak) classes that are sanctioned by the ACA for instructors to teach. They are "Quick Start," (3 hour min.), "Intro to Paddling" (5 hours min.) and the "Fundamentals to Coastal Kayaking" (16 hours min.). They are all beginner workshops. This is one of the reasons for the proposed courses. The Coastal Kayaking Committee was formed to address the need for more advanced classes. There is so much info to cover in the allotted time for these classes that one topic cannot be given the proper amount of attention it deserves. The 'Fundamental' course has a module that talks about Wind, Waves and Weather. At the end of the course it is mentioned that this 16 hour workshop is not an end in itself and students should seek further training and instruction. In the proposed "Expeditions" workshop which may consist of an actual 3 day training and instruction trip, the subject of weather forecasting should be a topic of it's own. (The lesson plan is not yet finalized on that particular course.) In an Instructor Development Workshop (IDW) and Instructor Certification Exam (ICE), each instructor candidate is assigned topics to teach to beginning students and weather forecasting is usually one of them as well as risk management. Overall Safety is always stressed. Ray Killen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Kruger wrote: >>Learning how to stay out of bad weather isn't sexy, and does not make for >>attractive videos. John Winters replied: >(Large SNIP) about how one has to keep mentioning weather to get it across) > >This is exactly my complaint. I have not heard of a paddling course that >reinforces the instruction (when they even bother to to give it) by >reviewing the topic frequently through out the course. If instructors can >spend hours on rolling then they should be able to spend hours on weather. Sounds like an economic thing to me. Paying customers of the instructors want the sexy parts, not the boring weather stuff, even if lack of knowledge about it is more likely to kill them. One of my good friends uses the following as his sig file: "Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it." The Broze/Gronseth book (can't remember the name of it now) illustrates that nicely. Good luck.... Hank Hays *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Teaching methods is what the discussion is really about. Very few ACA instructors are professional teachers. Not all teachers are competent teachers, therefore not all intructors are competent instructors. Those who are sneak in the needed, boring stuff in such a way that it is simply thought of as desert! People always want more desert. Ahhhhhhh! The mark of a succesful instructor. You learned the boring stuff without even knowing you were suffering. In actuality, you weren't! John *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Ray wrote; (SNIP) >A course on weather forecasting and accident prevention >will not be able to stand on it's own (people will not sign up for it) so it >will just be a portion of another course. Pause for just one moment and think about this comment. What does it say about people? What does it say about kayaking in general? What does it say about sea kayak safety and the attitude toward safety various organisations present? Now read through the index of articles in the back of Sea Kayaker magazine and count the number of articles about staying out of trouble and compare them to the number of articles about rolling and what to do after you have screwed up. If staying alive lacks glamour then we might want to look at the BCU and ACA to find out why. How much of the Quick Start course does the ACA devote to keeping out of trouble? How much of the "Fundamentals" course? The content of a course tells paddlers what the organisation considers important. (SNIP) > >There is so much info to cover in the allotted time for these classes that one >topic cannot be given the proper amount of attention it deserves. The time spent reflects the importance of the topic. Spend 1 hour on keeping out of trouble and 4 on rescues and the importance becomes clear. >'Fundamental' course has a module that talks about Wind, Waves and Weather. So, what percentage of the course focuses on Wind, Waves and Weather? Does it get treated as a major part of paddling or as an aside that you might want to do some out-of-class reading on? >In the proposed "Expeditions" workshop which may consist of an actual 3 day >training and instruction trip, the subject of weather forecasting should be a >topic of it's own. Why should one wait for an "Expedition" class? Most of the accidents in Deep Trouble had nothing to do with expeditions. They did have a lot to do with novices. (SNIP) >Overall Safety is always stressed. And yet, treating the cause of most sea kayaking accidents for novices has to wait for an expedition course. The problem that I see has to do with the priority. Ask yourself what training you want first - how to keep your fingers out of the saw or how to bandage the cut-off stumps? If weather and judgement are boring the instructors might ask themselves why. Instead of concentrating on the "right" way to make a forward stroke maybe they should concentrate on the "right" way to keep your butt our of trouble. Then, maybe they could learn the "right" way to present the topic so it would interest the students. Rolls etc. offer symptomatic relief not a cure to ignorance and a macho attitude towards paddling. Sorry for the rant but if the ACA and BCU can't figure out what has more importance, avoiding having to roll or knowing how to roll, then there will always be lots of subject matter for books like Deep Trouble. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I have seen a few people picking apart Ray K's post on the new approaches to paddling instruction currently being researched by the ACA. As a neophile to the discipline, I feel that the ACA proposal of increasing and expanding standards will result in actual demonstrable goals for me to attempt to acheive. This is a good thing and I think that its a laudable enterprise for the ACA to attempt. I would like to be an asset rather than a liability to anyone I plan to paddle with in the future. It will be also good to know or understand the level of training of those I am with for distinguishing who might need special attention or who might be a reliable assist. Many of the trips which I see invites to on this list and others will be with total strangers, be nice if you knew that they tried a wet exit. Better if you knew they could roll. Best if you knew they could do an assist or recieve an assist. Through personal experience I have found that adverse weather is one of the most basic criteria to a dangerous encounter. I felt the advice on the list to be very helpful in giving me a winter lesson plan in forecasting. I have bought and am reading the reccomended books and have added a compass to my 'utility belt' of wallet, keys, digital camera and cellphone(boy I hate that thing) and am trying the 'whats going to happen in an hour game' by observing the elements and taking a bearing with compass on cloud and wind directions (which I have found to been going in opposite directions sometimes). What was somewhat annoying to me was the critical tone of his posts which seem to have inferred that Ray K was cavalier in his attitude of safety. I was told by 4 distinct sources that Ray and his wife were 2 of the best instructers in the area. The conversations you'all were having about cold weather clothing really confused me (there were a lot of opinions out there) on the type requirements, so I thought that Ray would be a convenient person to ask. He knows the conditions of my area (he is only about 15 minutes away). If I could email him exactly what I had, I figured he could tell me when I should stop paddling in month x and resume in month y. Instead, I got a multi page dissertation on hypothermia with the practical application of the clothing I had as well as the ones I needed to increase my 'repetoire' based on my skill level and conditions. It was invaluable in my re-evaluation of my capabilities and equipment. Ray's emphasis on safety was apparent in this generous letter to me, someone who 'out of the blue' needed some help. I think that every skill learned, from efficient stroke to accurate weather forecasting, will contibute to being a 'trip asset' and I also think that learning and perfecting a roll will be a blast (had a terribly ineffective evening last saturday). I encourage the ACA in raising the standards of instruction and giving some acheivable goals. I also realize that after I learn the 'ACA or BCU way' there is another version of a Greenland stroke to research or roll to acheive. But I am only a begginer... > > If weather and judgement are boring the instructors might ask themselves > why. Instead of concentrating on the "right" way to make a forward stroke > maybe they should concentrate on the "right" way to keep your butt our of > trouble. Then, maybe they could learn the "right" way to present the topic > so it would interest the students. Rolls etc. offer symptomatic relief not > a cure to ignorance and a macho attitude towards paddling. > > Sorry for the rant but if the ACA and BCU can't figure out what has more > importance, avoiding having to roll or knowing how to roll, then there > will always be lots of subject matter for books like Deep Trouble. > -- gabriel l romeu http://members.aol.com/romeug studio furniture http://members.aol.com/romeugp paintings, photos, prints, etc. http://members.xoom.com/gabrielR a daily photo journal *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I just reread my post and let it be a lesson, proof read before release, especially after a couple of glasses of wine...sorry. -- gabriel l romeu http://members.aol.com/romeug studio furniture http://members.aol.com/romeugp paintings, photos, prints, etc. http://members.xoom.com/gabrielR a daily photo journal *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Gabriel L Romeu sent this on Tuesday, December 15, 1998 6:59 AM To: John Winters Cc: PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Weather <snip> As a neophile to the discipline, I feel that the ACA proposal of increasing and expanding standards will result in actual demonstrable goals for me to attempt to acheive. This is a good thing and I think that its a laudable enterprise for the ACA to attempt. I would like to be an asset rather than a liability to anyone I plan to paddle with in the future. It will be also good to know or understand the level of training of those I am with for distinguishing who might need special attention or who might be a reliable assist. Many of the trips which I see invites to on this list and others will be with total strangers.< Good attitude Gabriel. I'd like to paddle with you. I believe that there are many new paddler who are truly into learning as much as they can about ALL aspects of the sport. The ACA should offer weather reading for just this type of paddler. Sure it's not "sexy", but I think there are enough serious paddlers out there to make it worth offering. As for paddling with "total strangers" -- Proper paddle planning is one of the most important aspects of the trip. During the planning phase, each member should tell the group their paddling experience. They should talk about their likes, dislikes, and preferences. There are many types of paddlers. Some like to take it nice and slow, while others prefer to cover as much distance as possible. Be honest with yourself and others since your fibbing could jeopardize everyone's safety. Some fear is healthy, a lack of fear can be fatal. Fear and/or uncertainty are normal for novices. If you're a novice, say so! If an experienced paddler gives you a hard time, then you probably shouldn't paddle with them anyway. Gabriel, never paddle with someone who doesn't "feel" like they have to right attitude. It's not worth the risk. Routing decisions should be determined by voting. It's important that novices or weak paddlers have the right to veto the routing. Scared or concerned paddlers don't react judiciously in adverse conditions. For the sake of the entire group's safety, their voices must be influential in the decision-making process. Cheers, Dave Dave Williams, Training Director dave_at_seacanoe.com http://seacanoe.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
OK, with all of this ranting and raving about teaching weather I thought I might just take a second to add my two cents to this topic. Based on my experiences as an instructor I would have to say that the very vast majority of people who sign up for a kayaking class are simply weekend warriors. That is to say that they are really not interested in doing long trips to remote places. Or if they do, they will sign up for a commercial trip where it is the guides responsibility to look after things and keep the group safe. These people are looking for a good time. Most of them really don't want to learn a lot about the sport. Whenever I try to teach the rule of twelfths, for instance, I will see peoples eyes roll back in their heads and glass over and I know I'm losing them. I do what I can to make it interesting and fun, but the bottom line is, they just don't want to get into this stuff. "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink!" Teaching kayaking is, for the most part, a commercial affair. The company needs people to sign up in order to make money. For people to sign up it has to be fun and interesting. In fact it doesn't even have to be interesting, just fun. Of course there are those exceptions, people who really do want to learn. People like us who waste too much time discussing kayaking on the Internet. But even among this select group, how many of you would actually spend your hard earned cash on a class about weather for kayakers? Perhaps some of you would. But I'm willing to bet it's not enough to justify the time and expense of putting together a class. The information is available to those who want it. It's just not worth the energy to try and cram it down the peoples throats. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
KiAyker_at_aol.com wrote: > OK, with all of this ranting and raving about teaching weather I thought I > might just take a second to add my two cents to this topic. Based on my > experiences as an instructor I would have to say that the very vast majority > of people who sign up for a kayaking class are simply weekend warriors. When weekend warriors are about to head out on the water, they often have driven some distance with plenty of opportunity to listen to weather reports. Even if they bother to listen, they are the most likely to head out anyway. Why waste the drive to the launch point? Sure, push a weather course but don't expect interest from the weekenders who need it most. Even if you do get them to take it, don't expect most of them to act on what they learned. It wouldn't be macho to say "Sorry guys, I'm not paddling today. I believe a storm is coming". Yes there are cautious weekend paddlers who would like to learn. They already listen to weather reports, look at the sky & stay home if they aren't sure. A weather course may give them enough info & confidence that they paddle more. -- Lloyd Bowles The Mad Canoeist "Keep the open side up!" http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/clearstreets/358/index.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Scott wrote: > OK, with all of this ranting and raving about teaching weather I thought I >might just take a second to add my two cents to this topic. Based on my >experiences as an instructor I would have to say that the very vast majority >of people who sign up for a kayaking class are simply weekend warriors. That >is to say that they are really not interested in doing long trips to remote >places. Around here weather happens on the weekend, too. Q. What do you call two days of rain in Oregon? A. The weekend! Humans survive inspite of themselves.... I do agree with your post. How do we make people see the light? Other than just letting the unbelievers get Darwinned out. Hank Hays *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Hank wrote; (SNIP) > >I do agree with your post. How do we make people see the light? Other >than just letting the unbelievers get Darwinned out. Hey, I like that. But why take a passive role. Why not build unsafe boats. The smart paddlers won't buy them but the dummies will and will drown faster. It works for me. :-) Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Internet. But even among this select group, how many of you would actually spend your hard earned cash on a class about weather for kayakers? Perhaps some of you would. But I'm willing to bet it's not enough to justify the --------------------- >From someone who has yet to learn a lot(or a little) about weather, if I were to pay for a course/seminar about weather, I would expect to come out of it with something I could use to help me on the water. I went to a couple of hour long sessions this summer at the Atlantic Coast Sea Kayak Symposium in Castine, Maine and came away with nothing useful. The sessions were given by a local meteorologist and he started with weather front formations, ciruclations, a lot of theory, etc. While it was mildly interesting, it had nothing to do with my reason for attending. I don't want to be a meteorologist, all I want to know is if I'm paddling into deep sh*t. I want to be able to look at the sky and/or the water and have some indication of what kind of wind and weather lies ahead in the next couple of hours. To be fair, there's only so much you can cram into a classroom session and they always want to start with the basics. I have high hopes for the Instant Weather (and wind) Forecasting books suggested earlier on the list and will be ordering them after the holidays. Something simple I can benefit from with a minimum amount of effort. 'An Idiot's Guide To Weather Forecasting' :-). Just to show I *am* interested in a weather course, here's a place offering courses in Miami and Los Angeles: http://www.weatherstrategies.com/. Unfortunately they're both a little far for me. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Sisler, Clyde wrote: (In response to Scott -- from SoCalifornia, who said): > > But even among this select group, how many of you would actually > > spend your hard earned cash on a class about weather for kayakers? Perhaps > > some of you would. But I'm willing to bet it's not enough to justify the > > expense ...[snip] > I went to a couple of hour long sessions this summer at the Atlantic Coast > Sea Kayak Symposium in Castine, Maine and came away with nothing useful. > The sessions were given by a local meteorologist and he started with weather > front formations, ciruclations, a lot of theory, etc. While it was mildly > interesting, it had nothing to do with my reason for attending. > > I don't want to be a meteorologist, all I want to know is if I'm paddling > into deep sh*t. I want to be able to look at the sky and/or the water and > have some indication of what kind of wind and weather lies ahead in the next > couple of hours. > > To be fair, there's only so much you can cram into a classroom session and > they always want to start with the basics. > > I have high hopes for the Instant Weather (and wind) Forecasting books > suggested earlier on the list and will be ordering them after the holidays. > Something simple I can benefit from with a minimum amount of effort. 'An > Idiot's Guide To Weather Forecasting' :-). And there is the crux of the matter. The trouble with what we all want -- that Idiot's Guide -- is that even the people with the best information and the best understanding of weather sometimes have a devil of a time getting the forecast right. Not a knock on NOAA or any other weather service -- the weather is just not highly predictable, particularly on the west coast of North America, where all the weather (pretty much) comes from a place where the weather folks have the least information -- the ocean. This has been an interesting thread -- I've learned a lot and picked up some weather titles to titilate my gray matter. But, I suspect we are never going to do much better than to follow Neverdosky's advice to pay attention to it and keep trying to test our predictions. As Scott points out, most of us just wanna go paddle and are not patient enough to put in the time (and effort). And then guys like Clyde, who DO put in some time and effort, get frustrated because a seminar on weather does not seem to focus on what he wants. To maybe give a stroke in a fruitful direction for Clyde: keep that circulation model the meteorologist taught you in your brain and when you listen to the weather radio, try to visualize WHERE the low pressure system is, and translate your mental image into a cloud/wind pattern around the low. Then put your location into the picture. As the low moves on through, note the wind shifts (magnitude and direction) to figure out where the low has moved to, and re-visualize it. Keep on doing that and you'll get most of it. For me, just learning the pattern of wind shifts which signals approach and passage of a cold front helped a hell of a lot. I'm afraid some of weather science may have kinship with witchcraft! <G> -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR usually at least half-wrong about the weather *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> ... I'm > afraid some of weather science may have kinship with witchcraft! <G> and none of it is as good as probability theory: look around you and there is an 80% chance that the weather tomorrow wil be the same as it is now. True fact, and probably better odds than you will get from the met forecast... -- jim *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Scott wrote; (Large SNIP) >It's just not worth the energy to try and cram it down the >peoples throats. Fair enough but then let us quit kidding ourselves about being concerned about safety. If the reality has more to do with the bottom line for commercial interest let's cut the crap and admit it. I have read enough stuff here about always wearing life jackets, always having a GPS, always doing this, always doing that and why not doing it means I am an unsafe paddler and not setting a good example if I don't do it to fill a life time. But just mention something that may not be fun or something you can't buy and suddenly safety just doesn't matter much. No problem for me. I will just remember all this the next time some lifejacket, scuba knife, GPS, VHF, paddle float, radar reflector, bilge pump, sponson bedecked safety evangelist mounts the podium to tell me how important safety is and why I should do one thing or the other. If it ain't fun then why should anyone care? Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: > > Scott wrote; > (Large SNIP) > >It's just not worth the energy to try and cram it down the > >peoples throats. > > Fair enough but then let us quit kidding ourselves about being concerned > about safety. If the reality has more to do with the bottom line for > commercial interest let's cut the crap and admit it. > > I have read enough stuff here about always wearing life jackets, always > having a GPS, always doing this, always doing that and why not doing it > means I am an unsafe paddler and not setting a good example if I don't do > it to fill a life time. But just mention something that may not be fun or > something you can't buy and suddenly safety just doesn't matter much. > > No problem for me. I will just remember all this the next time some > lifejacket, scuba knife, GPS, VHF, paddle float, radar reflector, bilge > pump, sponson bedecked safety evangelist mounts the podium to tell me how > important safety is and why I should do one thing or the other. > > If it ain't fun then why should anyone care? At the risk of advocating yet one more safety device, I have the following suggestion. Buy a weather radio. Cheap as $19 at Radio Shack, and even the ones with bells and whistles (water resistant case, emergency weather alert signal, etc.) cost at most $49. It is something one can buy and is fun to use, so it should please everyone. Very simple to use like a PFD. Even simplier actually. With your PFD, you have to go through so much bother such as open the zipper, put your arms through the arm holes, zip up and then tighten any side cinch belts. With the weather radio just turn the on-off knob. In using a weather radio, it is advisable to tune into the local NOAA station during the 24 hours prior to your planned trip. This will give you vital information on what winds are doing as they can change patterns of tides and currents depending on your locale. If there are warnings of a possible shift in weather while you are out paddling, bring the radio with you in a ziplock bag and make certain to check when taking a lunch or snack break. Maybe I am lazy or strange but there are rooms and rooms of guys and gals in NOAA offices all over the place, with meteorogical maps, computers, and lots of experience (and I assume windows they are looking out of too to see what is going on). They are anxious as hell to fine tune their reports and forecasts all day long. Probably 99 per cent of the paddling most people are doing is within range of one of those stations. So put yourself in the hands of experts for 19 bucks and the occasional replacement of double A batteries. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>ralph diaz wrote: >At the risk of advocating yet one more safety device, I have the >following suggestion. Buy a weather radio. Cheap as $19 at Radio >Shack, and even the ones with bells and whistles (water resistant case, >emergency weather alert signal, etc.) cost at most $49. I went through a whole series of Radio Shack weather radios (both the cheap and the expsensive). None of these radios could get a signal in the Apostle Islands or North Shore of Lake Superior which is where I do most of my paddling. This is one reason why I went with a "real" VHF radio. So, if you do go the Radio Shack route, be sure and keep the receipt. -Patrick -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick Maun pmaun_at_bitstream.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 1:47 PM -0800 12/14/98, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: >At the risk of advocating yet one more safety device, I have the >following suggestion. Buy a weather radio. Cheap as $19 at Radio >Shack, and even the ones with bells and whistles (water resistant case, >emergency weather alert signal, etc.) cost at most $49. If you want an expensive weather radio, get a VHS. They usually are able to tune into the weather frequencies. The beauty of this is you can buy something expensive that will make you feel somewhat safer in a high-tech way and actually end up using it on a regular basis. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 10 Ash Swamp Rd Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>No problem for me. I will just remember all this the next time some >lifejacket, scuba knife, GPS, VHF, paddle float, radar reflector, bilge >pump, sponson bedecked safety evangelist mounts the podium to tell me how >important safety is and why I should do one thing or the other. Of course, some of us have fun fiddling with all the new fangled gear. I think the love of gear (the purchase of and the playing with) is one of the attractions to sea kayaking. I mean, you get to tell people "and without all of this stuff -- I'D DIE!." Now that's fun. -Patrick -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick Maun pmaun_at_bitstream.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>Hank Hays wrote; > >>I do agree with your post. How do we make people see the light? Other >>than just letting the unbelievers get Darwinned out. John Winters replied: >Hey, I like that. But why take a passive role. Why not build unsafe boats. >The smart paddlers won't buy them but the dummies will and will drown >faster. Include a free set of sp*ns*ns and help Charlie D. out even more? Hank again... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
With all of this discussion on weather and weather education let's not lose sight of the fact that there really isn't any good substitute for local knowledge and _experience_. (Well, as Ralph so sagely noted, a good NOAA weather report is certainly quite useful also.) My point is simply that, while I had a ton of practical experience and also a fair amount of formal and semi-formal "book learnin" of weather conditions; I had to throw many of my pre-conceptions out the window when I moved from the Midwest (Lake Michigan) to Alaska. Many of the signs, trends etc that I knew would bring certain types of weather on the waters of Lake Michigan don't apply here in SE Alaska at all. Some of the generalities apply, but many things are different. Yes, a low is still a low and a 20 knot wind out of the south over a long fetch will still build up some good sized waves, but there are things that are different - vastly so. Here, for instance, a strong wind out of the North typically brings clear skies, not a wicked winter storm.... And tides - well, I won't even venture into the fun that 16-24 ft tides throw into the equation<g>. A long winded way of saying, "Keep a weather eye peeled". It's hard to beat daily observation - we all live in places surrounded by the best textbook around. Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I've only been glancing at the weather discussion every so often, so I may have missed something, but I can't fathom how anyone could find weather boring. It's one of the reasons I like sea kayaking, it allows me to really live in the weather, to really be in the present. Most of the time we're sheltered by our homes and cars, but while I'm kayaking weather conditions are as elemental as whether it's day or night. An introduction to weather is included in the Bay Area Sea Kayaker novice clinic. A significan portion of kayaking in the San Francisco Bay Area is shaped by weather. Finding the luminous windows between winter storms, and looking to the pervailing NW wind to push us on home in the summer. Barbara Kossy * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * --*--*--*-- Sea Kayak Italia - Elba, Italy http://www.seakayakitaly.com tel. 650-728-8720 fax 650-728-8753 * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- *--* --*-- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 07:22 PM 12/14/98 -0800, Dave Kruger signed off: >Dave Kruger >Astoria, OR >usually at least half-wrong about the weather The weatherman is wrong the other half? Hank *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph wrote; > >At the risk of advocating yet one more safety device, I have the >following suggestion. Buy a weather radio. Cheap as $19 at Radio >Shack, and even the ones with bells and whistles (water resistant case, >emergency weather alert signal, etc.) cost at most $49. It is something >one can buy and is fun to use, so it should please everyone. Very >simple to use like a PFD. Even simplier actually. With your PFD, you >have to go through so much bother such as open the zipper, put your arms >through the arm holes, zip up and then tighten any side cinch belts. >With the weather radio just turn the on-off knob. (SNIP) A weather radio can be handy but (always a but) they provide wide area forecasts that may not be applicable in your specific area. This particularly applies in areas with katabatic winds, thunder storms, significant natural land features, and the possibility that a weather system may not move as predicted. Here is a quote from Jeff Markell's The Sailor's Weather Guide. "Thus even with the best available forecasts in our hands, you and I, from time to time, encounter the unexpected - unexpected that is if we ourselves fail to keep our own weather watch. This means training ourselves as weather observers in the manner traditional among seafaring people." I have travelled with a professional meteorologist and he always pointed out the weather forecasts were never intended for local use. Anyone who thinks even a MAFOR report suitable for local purposes has never paddled on our nice benign Georgian Bay. I have paddled during the summer with not one peep out of the radio about thunder storms but those big hot rocks in the bay generate nifty thermals that grow in to even niftier thunderbumpers. By all means, carry that radio but watch the sky, sense the temperature, check the wind. Observe the changes. After a while you may find you don't need the radio and $14.00 will buy a nice bottle of an unassuming but pleasant wine suitable for drinking on a cold night in the north in the company of a pleasant companion. Now, that's fun. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: > > Ralph wrote; > > > > >At the risk of advocating yet one more safety device, I have the > >following suggestion. Buy a weather radio. > > (SNIP) > > A weather radio can be handy but (always a but) they provide wide area > forecasts that may not be applicable in your specific area. This > particularly applies in areas with katabatic winds, thunder storms, > significant natural land features, and the possibility that a weather > system may not move as predicted. Actually, the forecasting, at least down here in the States, is getting better and better. Moreover, there is a system of highly sophisticated local warnings that can spot and warn within minutes of adverse situations that develop suddenly like tornadoes and worse-than-earlier-predicted storms. My understanding. That is what the weather alert feature on the radios does by sending a signal, a loud buzz, that alerts you to turn on the radio and listen to the alert advisory. It is expected that within a few years, that alert setup will be local down to within a small locale. I agree that they don't always get things right. But they are certainly in a better position than a person who has taken even a full day's weather observing course. I think what they do is to alert you to _possible_ freakish changes that may occur. Things that may not be so evident in the immediate area around you. My general approach even with things like small craft warnings is to not scratch a trip but rather go to the specific site. If conditions don't look bad when they were supposed to be currently bad, I will go out but cautiously. If the prediction is for some drastic change in the middle of the day, I stay alert to it or just cut the trip short. The weather radio in this area has generally been on the money in terms of changing situations. Some people have not heeded this to their discomfort and death. On the former, that fellow who got caught in a storm that had been predicted all day and got blown over but lived to tell about it on this and other listservers earlier this year. Another fellow who ventured out into NY Harbor in a sailboat with friends wasn't so luck over Labor Day and drowned. I had a similar experience on the Hudson with a calm day suddenly leading to disastrous lightening storms. Luckily we were listening to the radio. It was so localized that the storm was predicted to be crossing our path just dead ahead. (We were on a river-length multiday paddle.) We ducked into a spot just before it all hit and sat out hail and lightening sheltered deep in the woods. > I have travelled with a professional meteorologist and he always pointed > out the weather forecasts were never intended for local use. How is that??? The experiences mentioned above question that statement. They are. Maybe not everywhere. But they are in many places. Down here we are aware of changing patterns within 10 miles. That I would consider "local." ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
A weather radio can be handy but (always a but) they provide wide area forecasts that may not be applicable in your specific area. This particularly applies in areas with katabatic winds, thunder storms, significant natural land features, and the possibility that a weather system may not move as predicted. --------------- Geesh, and I thought it was me. I listened to NOAA faithfully 3 times a day but their forecasts didn't seem to match what I was experiencing half the time. The big winds and big waves and thunderstorms and the fog never seemed to materialize so I stopped taking the forecasts as gospel and started doing pretty much my own thing. I always figured I must be somewhere other than where I thought??? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Sisler, Clyde wrote the second paragraph; John Winters wrote the first: > > A weather radio can be handy but (always a but) they provide wide area > forecasts that may not be applicable in your specific area. This > particularly applies in areas with katabatic winds, thunder storms, > significant natural land features, and the possibility that a weather > system may not move as predicted. > > Geesh, and I thought it was me. I listened to NOAA faithfully 3 times a day > but their forecasts didn't seem to match what I was experiencing half the > time. The big winds and big waves and thunderstorms and the fog never > seemed to materialize so I stopped taking the forecasts as gospel and > started doing pretty much my own thing. I always figured I must be > somewhere other than where I thought??? Yeah, Clyde, that's kinda what I see here, too. FWIW, when I'm out actually paddling on a multi-day trip, I try to pay close attention to the buoy/lighthouse/weather station reports AROUND me to dose out where the system is, and where it seems to be moving. Can't do that everywhere, but some places (Queen Charlottes, for example) are surrounded by buoys with swell, wind, and barometric pressure info beaming your way. Sometimes, you can scoot before the storm, even (do not try this at home). I could be way off base, but my subjective opinion is that Environment Canada does a better job than NOAA -- at least out here on the West Coast of North America. Per one of TomCkayak's observations, there are sites on the net which will help. Tom's were oriented toward finding out swell (so he can surf in it, I suspect!). I found one which has the NOAA feed BETWEEN weather stations -- sorta their shoptalk, where they confess the degree to which they have confidence in their forecasts, and reveal some of the secondary options to the main one they put out as the "weather forecast." Don't know where yours will be, but if you check out this (http://www.ocs.orst.edu/pub_ftp/weather/prog_discussion/prog.PQR), you can see the kind of info at these sites. Also, there is a site which will let you look at the summary of hourly readings at your local weather shop, so you can see if that front has already passed or not. It's at: http://wxp.atms.purdue.edu/interact.html There may be a merit badge in this for us, Clyde! <G> -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Most folks who take paddling instruction only take it at an introductory level, will only paddle on weekends, will seldom get far from shore, and will only set out in fair weather. I doubt if a weather intensive course could be marketable to these folks, regardless of how valuable it would be. A question then is how can an instructor in a typical intro course drive home the importance of weather? I have tried to stress the importance of regularly watching the weather -- building it into the structure of the day's paddle. I call on students frequently to review the weather conditions and make a call as to whether we continue on or not. It gets the point across that weather watching is vital, without impinging on on-water instruction time. Of course they do not walk away with any skills at predicting the weather, but they do walk away with the knowledge that watching the weather throughout the day is important, and that if they see a change in the wind or water or sky, they should make for shore. (BTW, the breaks include checking weather, checking route and time, checking group continuity, and checking each other.) This practice does not translate well into textbooks, for it is a very simple concept which does not require lengthy explanation. I wonder, what would be the response to a paddling text which began every wreck and rescue technique matter with "Having forgotten to check the weather, the __________ (fill in the blank with waves have risen, temperature has dropped, etc.) and your survival now depends on your ________ (fill in the blank with rafting up, re-entering, rolling up, dropping a drogue, etc.)." Perhaps this would be too pedantic or too even patronizing, but I think that if it were handled correctly (e.g. a Nealy approach) it might work. Richard Culpeper www.geocities.com/~culpeper *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
A question then is how can an instructor in a typical intro course drive home the importance of weather? ---------------- IMHO, all you can do is make people aware of such things as weather, wind, waves, lightning, hypothermia, clothing, first aid, etc. After stressing the importance and inter-relationship of some of these things provide a suggested method of how to learn more about each of the topics, including suggested reference material and reading lists. They have to be on their own from there. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Sorry, can't resist... I didn't write it, it's a joke that's been forwarded around. Happy Holidays Julie Rudolph, a dedicated Russian communist back in the early days of rocketry, was about to launch a large missile. His wife, a fellow scientist at the base, urged him to postpone the launching because, she asserted, a hard rain was about to fall. "Rudolph, darling," she said, "Don't fire up the ship. There's going to be too much rain." "No, my sweet, " Rudolph replied. "It's not going to rain." "But, Rudolph, my love," insisted his wife. "I majored in meteorology and I can see that it's going to pour." The enraged rocket scientist closed the argument by shouting, "Rudolph the red knows rain dear!" *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Hi All Enjoying this weather thread ..... Seems to me that you new world folks are spoilt for choice with weather gizmos. Hereabouts there are a few specialised pay and listen forecasting services, the coast guard, and the familiar and reassuring met office shipping and inshore forecasts, but most forecasts are little more use for paddling than looking at the chart, buoy data, and out the window yourself. A few years ago I occasionally used to go climbing with an Australian meteorologist. His field at the time was forecasting wave heights for the north sea offshore oil industry, and I'll tell you I used to get some handy forecasts then :-). It was interesting to hear how forecasts for different media were compiled - want to brief Texaco, Shell, Philips, Mobil etc on wave height at platform 59º60'N 1º9'W in seven days to the nearest X cm with Y probability? - then recruit the services of a network of 100 or so buoys and weather stations and several Crays to run the models. Want to know the weather tomorrow for the local news media?- get someone to look out the window and glance at the chart before selecting the recyclable sentences..... you get what you pay for. Apparently a good statistic is that there is a 50% chance that the weather tomorrow will be the same as it is today :-) So if you hear a forecast like 'there will be a 50% chance of rain tomorrow', you know 'It might rain, or it might not', and in these parts it will be an absolutely spot on forecast for at least 364 days a year :-) Cheers Colin Calder 57º19'N 2º10'W 'The sun always shines in Chile Chico' *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Richard wrote; (SNIP) >I wonder, what >would be the response to a paddling text which began every wreck and rescue >technique matter with "Having forgotten to check the weather, the >__________ (fill in the blank with waves have risen, temperature has >dropped, etc.) and your survival now depends on your ________ (fill in the >blank with rafting up, re-entering, rolling up, dropping a drogue, etc.)." >Perhaps this would be too pedantic or too even patronizing, but I think >that if it were handled correctly (e.g. a Nealy approach) it might work. The best suggestion I have heard yet. This makes a lot of sense. First explain why you are up to your keester in trouble and then explain how you could have avoided it and then explain how to extricate yourself from your ignorance or stupidity. The neat thing about this comes from its being woven into the fabric of the paddling and instructional experience. The student can be constantly reminded of the consequences of actions and failure to act and observe without losing their attention.. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:32:54 PDT