In a message dated 1/29/99 12:21:28 PM EST, timothy.g.mattson_at_intel.com writes: << P.S. I've never met John Dowd so I need to emphasize that I am not calling him arrogant. I find the tone of his books a bit arrogant, but that could very well just be his writting style, not his personnel style. >> Try reading Derek Hutchinsons books. Both have found a technique that works the best for them and write it up with enthusiasm. Get six experts together and you will have six different ways of doing everything. ----------------------------message end----------------------------------------- Going Your Own Way Whenever I hear Frank Sinatra sing "I did it my way", I wish more paddlers could sing along too. Unfortunately, the current state of affairs in the sea kayak-touring world finds many singing "Do it my way". Pick up any magazine that deals with paddling activities, check out any club newsletter from around the world (off the Web) and sure enough, someone or some expert is telling everyone just the exact way they should paddle! The detail being discussed could be any one of a thousand items we make decisions about as paddlers. New paddlers would do well to consider making a serious effort from the beginning, not to let other paddlers push them around (tows are okay!!). When Derek Hutchinson tells you, you *must* feather your paddle, *just say no* (or just ignore him). Develop your own style, find out what gear, boat and techniques work best for you. Do drawn from organized instruction and good counsel - that which is universally advisable to follow, and do always make sure all the basics are covered. But do, in the end, do it your own way - and don't tell others the way they should do it. IMHO Doug Lloyd Victoria BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 1/31/99 1:45:39 AM Pacific Standard Time, dlloyd_at_inetex.com writes: << New paddlers would do well to consider making a serious effort from the beginning, not to let other paddlers push them around >> I really don't think this is possible. This sport can seem a bit intimidating to the uninitiated. New paddlers will learn more quickly and more safely if they approach this game with an open mind and try to learn from the more experienced. Unfortunately, most of your "experienced" paddlers seem to come with a whole package of suppositions. << Develop your own style, find out what gear, boat and techniques work best for you. Do drawn from organized instruction and good counsel -- that which is universally advisable to follow, and do always make sure all the basics are covered. But do, in the end, do it your own way -- and don't tell others the way they should do it.>> I believe in this philosophy as well. I must say, however, that I am a bit taken aback seeing those words here. I must also point out how humorous I find it that folks on this list should refer to Dowd and Hutchinson as "arrogant". Having been thoroughly lambasted in the past on this list for not wearing a pfd every time I'm on the water, or not sufficiently chaining my boat to the cars roof when I travel, etc., etc.. Please don't get me wrong, I do thoroughly enjoy this list and have the utmost respect for the people on it and the information I receive. But never have I encountered a more arrogant group. Perhaps this sport requires a bit of arrogance. Luckily I don't suffer from this affliction. It just so happens that I really do have all the answers :-) Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
KiAyker_at_aol.com wrote: > << Develop your own style, find out what gear, boat and techniques work best > for you. Do drawn from organized instruction and good counsel -- that which is > universally advisable to follow, and do always make sure all the basics are > covered. But do, in the end, do it your own way -- and don't tell others the > way they should do it.>> > > I believe in this philosophy as well. I must say, however, that I am a bit > taken aback seeing those words here. I must also point out how humorous I find > it that folks on this list should refer to Dowd and Hutchinson as "arrogant". > Having been thoroughly lambasted in the past on this list for not wearing a > pfd every time I'm on the water, or not sufficiently chaining my boat to the > cars roof when I travel, etc., etc.. Please don't get me wrong, I do > thoroughly enjoy this list and have the utmost respect for the people on it > and the information I receive. But never have I encountered a more arrogant > group. Perhaps this sport requires a bit of arrogance. Luckily I don't suffer > from this affliction. It just so happens that I really do have all the answers > :-) Scott's sense of humor is unimpaired, which is probably why he can tolerate our arrogance. <G> I was also surprised to see Dowd typified as arrogant. I found Dowd to be opinionated and definitive in his recommendations, but got a lot out of his book. I'm with Scott on this one, I guess -- anybody who srites a book on sea kayaking probably has to have a well-developed ego, and ego is one of the things which makes someone an "expert." The softspoken often get "soft-listened" to. Off to take my morning arrogance pill ... ahhh, let's make it two today. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Kruger wrote: > I was also surprised to see Dowd typified as arrogant. I found Dowd to be > opinionated and definitive in his recommendations, but got a lot out of his > book. I'm with Scott on this one, I guess -- anybody who srites a book on > sea kayaking probably has to have a well-developed ego, and ego is one of > the things which makes someone an "expert." The softspoken often get > "soft-listened" to. I have a coffee mug with the following quote from Sir Francis Bacon's Popularitas, "Nothing moderate is pleasing to the crowd." This certainly is true in kayaking and it is reflected in the writing whether print published or electronic a la newsgroups and listservers. I have met both Dowd and Hutchinson. I don't think Dowd is arrogant. He is enthusiastic in his beliefs and in what he says but with an open mind and a wide range of interests. Hutchinson is Hutchinson. If you had to spend a week with one of the two, I think you would find Dowd a better more interesting companion. Hutchinson would wear thin. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph wrote, >This certainly is true in kayaking and it is reflected in the writing >whether print published or electronic a la newsgroups and listservers. >I have met both Dowd and Hutchinson. I don't think Dowd is arrogant. >He is enthusiastic in his beliefs and in what he says but with an open >mind and a wide range of interests. Hutchinson is Hutchinson. If you >had to spend a week with one of the two, I think you would find Dowd a >better more interesting companion. Hutchinson would wear thin. It wouldn't hurt Derek a bit to wear a little thinner. :-) Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ >-- >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter >PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 >Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com >"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >************************************************************************** * >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >************************************************************************** * > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Lloyd wrote: > > ...<snip>... > ... find out what gear, boat and techniques work best for you. Do draw > from organized instruction and good counsel - that which is universally > advisable to follow, and do always make sure all the basics are covered. But > do, in the end, do it your own way ...<snip>... Yawn. Seriously, do you really think that people need to be told this?!? It is obvious that experts disagree, that these experts have found different ways of doing things (all of which may work to some extent in some circumstances), and that one must therefore pick and choose, based on one's own analysis and experiences and those of others (yadda, yadda, yadda). So what does this have to do with your complaints about people who express strong opinions? When I take up any new sport, I seek out people who are strongly opinionated. I rather enjoy hearing about a technique from someone who is passsionate about it, and then to hear from others who view things differently, but who are no less passionate. I have gained a lot from discussing the use of paddle floats with Matt Broze and Derek Hutchinson, and from listening to Matt complain about Derek's views (or vice versa) on a subject. The same holds true for the ongoing dialogues about the use of rudders versus skegs versus neither, feathered versus unfeathered paddles, high-angle versus low-angle strokes, hardshells versus folders, etc. There is nothing less interesting or more useless than someone who says "whatever works". Finally, I don't understand why some feel the need to preface every statement (or presentation) by saying "In my opinion..." or "While others may view things differently...". When I hear people say such things, I think to myself "Gee, really?!?" :-) When I want opinions on something, I seek out those who are passionate in their views. It is the competition among ideas that leads us closer to the answers that we seek. Dan Hagen Bellingham, Washington *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 1/31/99 2:09:44 PM EST, dan_at_hagen.net writes: << There is nothing less interesting or more useless than someone who says "whatever works". Finally, I don't understand why some feel the need to preface every statement (or presentation) by saying "In my opinion..." or "While others may view things differently...". When I hear people say such things, I think to myself "Gee, really?!?" :-) When I want opinions on something, I seek out those who are passionate in their views. Dan Hagen >> Interestingly enough, "whatever works for you" is exactly what Nigel Foster advises after he's presented the information, including his own experience and opinion, on a particular topic. I personally am much more comfortable with that approach to instruction than with know-it-all attitudes which tend to turn me off, know matter how much they know. Each to his own, I guess! :) Sandy *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
KayakherSC_at_aol.com wrote: > Interestingly enough, "whatever works for you" is exactly what Nigel Foster > advises after he's presented the information, including his own experience and > opinion, on a particular topic. I personally am much more comfortable with > that approach to instruction than with know-it-all attitudes which tend to > turn me off, know matter how much they know. Each to his own, I guess! :) > Sandy This *is* interesting. Are you saying that if Nigel were *not* to make his "whatever works for you" statement (or similar statements), but instead simply asserted his beliefs with passion and conviction, then you would conclude that he has a "know-it-all" attitude, and you would be offended by this? Many people who present their views without expressing tiresome and unnecessary qualifications are not "know it alls". There is a difference between stating one's opinions forcefully (leaving all of the trite qualifications unstated) and believing that one is infallible or "has all of the answers". Of course I realize that some people are not comfortable around those who express their opinions forcefully. Perhaps it is a cultural issue. In the environment in which I work my colleagues would think me weird--or at least a little bit slow--if I suddenly felt the need to "clarify" for the benefit of others I am merely expressing my beliefs. (As opposed to what? The divine truth?) To assume that someone is a "know-it-all" simply because they are forceful in their views strikes me as judgmental. But of course this is just my opinion. (Yawn.) As you say, to each his (or her) own. Dan Hagen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dan, I must confess that I also disagree with you for many of the same reasons you take issue with. To me, there are indeed times when qualifying one's remarks, feelings, or yes, even directions are necessary-but that, to me, is a rarity. Often people who look at qualifying their remarks as trite do indeed come off as either rude, or "controlling," or arrogant... Nigel Foster was in my experience, a wonderful teacher partly *because* of his demeanor. If you can easily adapt to the type of communication you favor then I am happy for you. I try to adapt, but am not always successful. Take care, Tom... At 16:29 1/31/99 -0800, you wrote: >KayakherSC_at_aol.com wrote: > >> Interestingly enough, "whatever works for you" is exactly what Nigel Foster >> advises after he's presented the information, including his own experience >and >> opinion, on a particular topic. I personally am much more comfortable with >> that approach to instruction than with know-it-all attitudes which tend to >> turn me off, know matter how much they know. Each to his own, I guess! :) >> Sandy > >This *is* interesting. Are you saying that if Nigel were *not* to make >his "whatever works for you" statement (or similar statements), but >instead simply asserted his beliefs with passion and conviction, then >you would conclude that he has a "know-it-all" attitude, and you would >be offended by this? Many people who present their views without >expressing tiresome and unnecessary qualifications are not "know it >alls". There is a difference between stating one's opinions forcefully >(leaving all of the trite qualifications unstated) and believing that >one is infallible or "has all of the answers". Of course I realize that >some people are not comfortable around those who express their opinions >forcefully. Perhaps it is a cultural issue. In the environment in which >I work my colleagues would think me weird--or at least a little bit >slow--if I suddenly felt the need to "clarify" for the benefit of others >I am merely expressing my beliefs. (As opposed to what? The divine >truth?) To assume that someone is a "know-it-all" simply because they >are forceful in their views strikes me as judgmental. But of course this >is just my opinion. (Yawn.) > >As you say, to each his (or her) own. > >Dan Hagen >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >*************************************************************************** { "Three left turns often make a right-The trick is surviving the attempts..."} Kirkland, Wa. <gadfly_at_isomedia.com> <http://www.isomedia.com/homes/gadfly/> *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Tom <gadfly_at_isomedia.com> wrote: > ...<snip>... > Often people who look at qualifying their remarks as trite do indeed come > off as either rude, or "controlling," or arrogant... > ... Tom, I agree that this is how some folks react. However I think that you should expand your list to include "overbearing". :-) > Take care You too. Dan *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dan, Sorry if I made you yawn (and any other Paddlewise persons). I yawn a lot on Sundays too, but I guess I just want to see kayakers have a little more balance (important for kayaking, you know?). One can get that by hearing juxstaposed, divergent opinions and choosing somewhere between the extremes. My preference for novices (context of original message) is for a balanced presentation upfront. Interestingly enough (maybe not for some yawners), on a recent trip down the West Coast of Vancouver Island, my two companions and I had very different approaches to boat choice, ways to track straight, paddle choice, style and cadence, etc...we all arrived at the same beach every afternoon, at the same time, despite all the differences! Have a happy paddle, different Dan. Doug Lloyd Victoria BC >Doug Lloyd wrote: >> >> ...<snip>... >> ... find out what gear, boat and techniques work best for you. Do draw >> from organized instruction and good counsel - that which is universally >> advisable to follow, and do always make sure all the basics are covered. But >> do, in the end, do it your own way ...<snip>... > >Yawn. > >Seriously, do you really think that people need to be told this?!? It is >obvious that experts disagree, that these experts have found different >ways of doing things (all of which may work to some extent in some >circumstances), and that one must therefore pick and choose, based on >one's own analysis and experiences and those of others (yadda, yadda, >yadda). So what does this have to do with your complaints about people >who express strong opinions? When I take up any new sport, I seek out >people who are strongly opinionated. I rather enjoy hearing about a >technique from someone who is passsionate about it, and then to hear >from others who view things differently, but who are no less passionate. >I have gained a lot from discussing the use of paddle floats with Matt >Broze and Derek Hutchinson, and from listening to Matt complain about >Derek's views (or vice versa) on a subject. The same holds true for the >ongoing dialogues about the use of rudders versus skegs versus neither, >feathered versus unfeathered paddles, high-angle versus low-angle >strokes, hardshells versus folders, etc. There is nothing less >interesting or more useless than someone who says "whatever works". >Finally, I don't understand why some feel the need to preface every >statement (or presentation) by saying "In my opinion..." or "While >others may view things differently...". When I hear people say such >things, I think to myself "Gee, really?!?" :-) When I want opinions on >something, I seek out those who are passionate in their views. It is the >competition among ideas that leads us closer to the answers that we >seek. > >Dan Hagen >Bellingham, Washington >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >*************************************************************************** > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> My preference for novices (context of original message) is for a balanced > presentation upfront. As a self-proclaimed kayak novice I would have to agree. I'm not a usenet/BBS novice though which I think has prepared me better to listen to the opinions expressed here. The written word is much less effective at expressing emotion than the spoken word...along with the body language that accompanies it. It's easy for someone's passion for their belief be taken as pushy and arogant. And a contra view is often mistaken as an attack on the original message. Very rarely would these mistakes be made if these discussions were in person. And at that point, the truly arogant and pushy would be obvious to all. I can't help wonder how many rookies are reading these messages afraid to ask a question because of the pounding response, or how many have already moved on... My only word of caution to everyone would be to be careful how much you insist your point. The novice could be easily pushed away to develop bad habits of their own. Possibly fatal habits they would have avoided if not scared away from asking a question here. The goal should be to draw the novice in and help them become a better and safer paddler, not scare them away by thumping your chest and claiming all other opinions/methods null and void. Just my 2 cents... Woody aka the rookie...but getting better thanks to you. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 1/31/99 5:55:57 PM EST, KayakherSC_at_aol.com writes: << When I want opinions on something, I seek out those who are passionate in their views. >> if you agree its passionate, if you don't agree its arrogant? The ACA certification program may be right for your passion. One way to do everything. Tom Cromwell Edmonds WA. USA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 1/31/99 7:44:26 PM EST, dlloyd_at_inetex.com writes: << on a recent trip down the West Coast of Vancouver Island, my two companions and I had very different approaches to boat choice, ways to track straight, paddle choice, style and cadence, etc...we all arrived at the same beach every afternoon, at the same time, despite all the differences! >> I bet you had plenty to talk about around the fire at night. I was not so Lucy. On a two week trip, the three of us had the same manufacture of boat with no rudders, unfeatherd paddles and the same "no tent" camping ideas, even the same type of cook stove. No arguments to keep the camp fire going. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Sounds like we all need a course in using E-Prime. In looking back over this thread the use of the verb "to be" triggered strong responses. Using E-prime would eliminate the qualifying statements that Dan dislikes yet would allow people to forcefully present their opinions without offence. The qualifiers become necessary to offset the use of the verb "to be". Onward and upward in our search for clarity through general semantics. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 1/31/99 7:46:06 PM EST, dan_at_hagen.net writes: << Of course I realize that some people are not comfortable around those who express their opinions forcefully. Perhaps it is a cultural issue. >> For me it is nothing more than a personality issue. Nigel is no less passionate about what he does than is Derek, for example. Yet I'm sure you would agree that their personalities and instructional styles are very different. I'm just indicating a preference for one style over another based on my own interests in interacting with people, just as you indicated a preference for the other. Sandy *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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