With all the talk of hands-free pumps it might be a good idea to mention that the lowly old hand-held pump is good to have along too. Recently I saw them used to pump out the rear hatch of a sinking boat (the neoprene hatch cover was left off). During assisted rescues, other paddlers can raft up and two or three pumps can be used at once to quickly pump out a boat. Not to mention the nonPaddlewiser who you end up helping to put back in his boat who doesn't own a pump. I think Derek even suggested them for trip leaders in one of his books. So even after I finally figure out how to get one of those hands-free pumps into my ruddered North American barge, I'll be taking the hand pump along anyway - despite the article I read that said it was one of the (begin Aussie accent here) "Things I should throw away or forget." :-) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
in the NSW club in australia we insist in pumps. We use a variety of foot and electric pumps. Hand pumps only are not seen as sufficient. You'd be failed on your board of canoe education proficiency award, for example, if that's all you had - pumping may mean things are bad, you want your paddle and you don't want to be a burden to your companions in rough conditons. I've had foot pumps ( marine stores and suppliers will have everything from cheapies to good ones such as henderson/whale) and was happy but thought I'd try electric. I also carry a big sponge i've recently got one of the attwood waterbusters powered by d cells. Relatively slow compared to 12v pumps but ok and completely self contained. Takes about 12-15 mins to completely empty a full-to-the-brim cockpit - most capsizes don't result in such a full cockpit. It is fitted into my boat behind my seat using shock cord (bungee) and olive cleats, and has a deck outlet. It has a switch on the pump body which means you have to reach into the cockpit to turn it on/off - not good - but it doesn't look like it would be hard to install a deck mounted marine switch, by drilling holes into the pump, sealing with araldite and sikaflex, and rewiring - that's my plan see for examples from the NSW club newsletter http://203.147.209.230/mag/35/pumps1.html http://203.147.209.230/mag/35/pumps2.html nick Note new email address Nicholas Gill School of Geography and Oceanography University of NSW Australian Defence Force Academy Canberra ACT 2600 Ph. 02 6268 8317 Mob. 041 7659440 Fax 02 6268 8313 Email: nicholas.gill_at_adfa.edu.au ---------- > From: VajraT_at_aol.com > To: clyde_sisler_at_email.msn.com; PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: [Paddlewise] Current Info on Electric or Foot Pumps? > Date: Tuesday, 11 May 1999 0:47 > > Clyde's recent test of the hand pump carried by myself and 90% of paddlers I > see: > > Well, I could pump water. However, my right (pump) hand was hitting the > > bottom of the PFD and would have been pretty raw in short order. Secondly, > > in that awkward position I couldn't keep control or put any weight on the > > paddle float so I would have been swimming again in any kind of lumpy > water. > > Sea conditions severe enough to capsize an experienced paddler will require > full use of the paddle to stay upright after the paddler re-enters. > Companions can help brace while the capsizee pumps by hand, but this can be > hazardous to body parts and gear as the boats crash together and pull apart > in the swell, and if wind or current is pushing toward a hazard, the whole > group could get into worse trouble. Of course, solo paddlers don't even have > this option. So, what's the latest word on electric or foot-operated pumps? > > I use a small boat for multi-day trips, often pack dry bags into the cockpit, > and I'm hesitant to give over any cockpit space. But it seems like the best > location for the pump would be between or beyond the feet, with the outlet > port on the front deck, within easy reach to open/close the outlet cover. > Short outlet and inlet hoses would probably be good, to speed pump action by > reducing friction between water and hose. Is there any reason to run the > outlet hose to a port behind the cockpit rim? > > Does anyone have a set-up which they've used awhile and: > 1) Easily available for purchase > 2) Can be installed by a non-engineer > 3) Won't take up a large amount of space > 4) Reasonable price (under $50) > > And what about the deck port, with a cover? Is there a kit which has all the > needed components, designed to work together? > > Does anyone have experience with both electric and foot-operated pumps? I > have the impression that electric would be the way to go: less expensive, > lighter, more compact, does not require a complicated, beefy attachment to > the hull. Allows full use of the feet, for bracing or operating rudder > pedals. Probably slower to empty the cockpit, but since even a fully-swamped > kayak can be braced upright and paddled forward, this seems acceptable. I > think I'd rather keep my feet on the pegs and get my boat moving toward > safety, even if it took, say, 20 minutes to empty the cockpit vs. 5 minutes > with a foot pump. > > (Hand pumps are so light, compact and inexpensive (plus we all own them!) > that it would be sensible to carry one as a back-up). > > Thanks in advance for information on your experiences. > > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
re recent postings if someone would make an alkaline powered pump with more capacity than the attwood (You could probably have quite a few alkalines to make up the weight of a 12v gel cell- has anyone weighed them up? the attwood has 3 d cells) and made it with an external switch for deck mounting I reckon they'd have a winner. The only thing would be size, the design would have to be right. nick Note new email address Nicholas Gill School of Geography and Oceanography University of NSW Australian Defence Force Academy Canberra ACT 2600 Ph. 02 6268 8317 Mob. 041 7659440 Fax 02 6268 8313 Email: nicholas.gill_at_adfa.edu.au ---------- > From: Jack Martin <jcmartin43_at_radix.net> > To: PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net; VajraT_at_aol.com > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Current Info on Electric or Foot Pumps? > Date: Tuesday, 11 May 1999 12:42 > > From: VajraT_at_aol.com > Date sent: Mon, 10 May 1999 10:47:20 EDT > Subject: [Paddlewise] Current Info on Electric or Foot Pumps? > To: clyde_sisler_at_email.msn.com, PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net > > > > > Does anyone have a set-up which they've used awhile and: > > 1) Easily available for purchase > > 2) Can be installed by a non-engineer > > 3) Won't take up a large amount of space > > 4) Reasonable price (under $50) > > > > And what about the deck port, with a cover? Is there a kit which has all the > > needed components, designed to work together? > > > > Does anyone have experience with both electric and foot-operated pumps? > > We beat this topic to death a few months ago, so it's all probably > on the archives somewhere. > > Handpumps are the quickest way to empty a flooded boat if you're > doing a demo sitting by a dock in flat water. The standard gray > and red pumps are powerful, and empty a flooded boat in less than > a minute. However, that's not where you're going to need it --- by > the dock in flat water. > > For my money, the foot pump is still the best option. I looked at > electric pumps, but saw too many potential failure points and a lot > of routine maintenance. (The Attwood "D" cell operated pump > which Nick mentioned is the only simple electric pump I've tried, > but it took forever to make a dent in my intentionally flooded > cockpit --- too slow for my interests.) There are two pumps > available which should work well: the Henderson foot pump --- > basically, the venerable Chimp pump outfitted with a tough > stainless steel spring inside the chamber which pulls water up into > the pump and a pedal to expel it overboard, and the Guzzler foot > pump, identical in operation. > > The Henderson foot pump is compact, and is ideal for sea kayaks; > many "British Heavies" come with Henderson pumps, although > there seem to be a lot of foredeck pumps coming over most > recently --- not a lot of foot pumps. Downside is that it comes from > the UK, and it's going to run significanctly over $100 in the States. > To get a sense of what they look like, check out Whale, > Henderson's sister company's, web site --- both part of Munster > Simms --- <http://www.whale.ltd.uk/marpro/urchin.htm>. Imagine > that pump with a plate to push in on with your foot instead of the > handle for both operations. > > Also see the direct action Guzzler foot pump at Bosworth's web > site, <http://www.bosworth.thomasregister.com/olc/bosworth>; > functionally identical to Henderson --- maybe a slightly larger > footprint and overall volume --- but is made in Rhode Island, and is > priced at local marine suppliers at about $50. > > I have Hendersons installed in my "British Heavy" Pintail and in my > newly constructed CLC North Bay, and am very happy with both. > They're simple in operation, dependable, and batteries are neither > included or needed. I can wet exit, do a re-entry and roll, put on > my skirt, skull or start paddling, and have the boat essentially dry > in one to two minutes, max. That's worst case. Hands on the > paddle, not on the pump. In big water with no help, where you > might need a pump, a handpump would not likely be effective at all. > Foot pumps work. > > As to covers and other plumbing issues, no worries. These pumps > have a flapper valve on the intake port --- water can enter the > chamber only when the spring extends the diaphragm --- and a > triple baffle "goose beak" exhaust valve (much like a heart valve) on > the overboard end. Little or no water will enter, especially if you > exhaust it over the side vice using the deck. Keep the plumbing > short and sweet, but use a "strum box" or other device in the bilge > at the open end of the intake hose to catch the max amount of > water. > > Jack Martin > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
patrick wrote Any tips on installing the pump for the inexperienced. I had mine mounted at an angle - it worked fine. I just had to saw off much of the outlet base in order for it to all fit in the space etc experiment with locations, angle etc. I used velcro to initially mount the pump and so could shift it around to try slightly different positions if you don't have rudder bar you can make up solid false 'bulkhead' to use as a mounting base/footrest. You can use a product called here 'agmat', a high density rigid foam used in building, i think for insulation and sound deadening. This fills the space beteen your feet and the bulkhead. this can be shaped to fit your boat and a I used a thin piece of varnished plywood to sit on the front of it on which I attached the pump and padding for feet. The curved bulkead I filled with that expanding foam from a can, popped it out with the help of vaseline and webbing running behind it , and used a mitre saw to cut the face of it square to meet the agmat. to drill the hull - define the drill point by locating the point on the inside that you want and shining a torch from under the hull, on the top of the hull mark that spot., Use a spade bit instead of drill bit. Its sharp tip starts the hole easily and a sharp spade bit cuts a nice clean circle. Drill a hole just a smidgin small to get a nice tight fit for the outlet. You can sand it out a little to just get the outlet in. Likewise for any holes for mounting nuts drilled in bulkheads, drill small for sealing, plus sikflex if you haven't got it yet take care not to buy too big or too small an outlet, get the right one for the hose size your pump requires. If you have to cut the outlet and lose the bayonet end, just heat the hose to facilitate forcing it over the (larger) remainder of the outlet use stainless steel hose clamps, i'm not actually sure if they are needed but I feel safer. remember if you stuff it up its not the end of the world, holes can be reglassed or, if plastic, welded over - no problem. This then provides an opportunity for creative disguising of these new blemishes on your hull. I used somewhat artfully cut red (my boat is red) signmaking reflective tape which not only covers the weld, but adds to safety! i must do some work today!! Contributions are up, work is down today nick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> We beat this topic to death a few months ago, so it's all probably on the archives somewhere. Some threads can be found at: http://csisler.com/Kayaks/PaddleWise/KayakEquipment.htm I usually send a note to the author if there is an archived thread. I don't usually post to the group so as not to discourage additional discussion. This particular thread is a case in point. Some good stuff has come to light. What I'm getting from the thread is I can pretty much forget about a paddle float rescue in the same conditions that knocked me over. If I can't stay in the boat to start with, how am I going to get back into it? And if I can get back in the boat, there won't be enough hands to operate a manual pump and stay upright, assuming I can get the spray skirt on anyway. (I paddle solo most of the time). If all this is true then the paddle float/hand pump are really a safety hazard rather than a safety feature in that they give you a sense of false security which may lead you into conditions from which you really can't recover. This then leads me to the question: Why does the entire industry seem to perpetuate this myth? All of the instruction books include paddle float rescues. Do they also state it's useless? I doubt it. Why does Sea Kayaker magazine (I don't subscribe nor do I read it regularly) perform tests and write articles about it? Why is the paddle float rescue taught in kayaking clasess (at least in mine) if they have little or no practical value. Oops, how did I get up on that damn soap box when I just wanted to mention the archived articles? Sorry! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Clyde wrote: > What I'm getting from the thread is I can pretty much forget about a paddle > float rescue in the same conditions that knocked me over. Hurrah! at last! (But then again you don't always have to perform a rescue in the conditions that caused the upset - hazards aren't always constant: you'll wash out of the tide race etc, the booomer only booms every 20th wave etc, the dumpy surf may only be at the bar etc) >If I can't stay > in the boat to start with, how am I going to get back into it? And if I can > get back in the boat, there won't be enough hands to operate a manual pump > and stay upright, assuming I can get the spray skirt on anyway. (I paddle > solo most of the time). Hurrah! > If all this is true then the paddle float/hand pump are really a safety > hazard rather than a safety feature in that they give you a sense of false > security which may lead you into conditions from which you really can't > recover. Yahoooooooo! Eureka! The dark ages are over! Realisation! > This then leads me to the question: Why does the entire industry seem to > perpetuate this myth? All of the instruction books include paddle float > rescues. Do they also state it's useless? I doubt it. Why does Sea > Kayaker magazine (I don't subscribe nor do I read it regularly) perform > tests and write articles about it? Why is the paddle float rescue taught in > kayaking clasess (at least in mine) if they have little or no practical > value. Good question which defies all logic! Paddlefloats aren't used in the UK and the few folk I know that carry one do so with the conviction that they would maybe be the last resort aid to a re-enter roll, definitely not for the fix your paddle to your boat - climb back in - pump out with both hands on a stirrup pump - discussion which comes up on this list so frequently. I wonder why anyone could believe it would realistically work in rough water. Don't know much about the stateside kayak industry, but I paddle a P&H capella, and was amazed to read for example the Sea Kayaker magazine review of this boat, in which the one criticism was that the design of the aft bungies prevented sticking your paddle under them for the paddlefloat rescue. huh ??? The bungies are clearly arranged to carry spare paddles, and how anyone, particularly a tester for a magazine could fail to realise this I found staggering. Glad to read your experiences practising self rescues Clyde, and glad you came to the conclusion that Paddlefloats are a waste of time. Cheers Colin Calder (electric pump, no paddlefloat) 57º19'N 2º10'W *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> Good question which defies all logic! Paddlefloats aren't used in the UK > and the few folk I know that carry one do so with the conviction that they > would maybe be the last resort aid to a re-enter roll, definitely not for > the fix your paddle to your boat - climb back in - pump out with both > hands on a stirrup pump - discussion which comes up on this list so > frequently. I wonder why anyone could believe it would realistically work > in rough water. Let me describe my use of a paddlefloat, since it seems different than others. To me, rescue situations call for rolling, period. I can't imagine being able to do an "official" paddlefloat rescue in a situation where I could not roll. On the other hand, setting up the paddlefloat outrigger on the OPPOSITE side of entry, makes swimming up ontop of the kayak with fins relatively trivial, making the tradition sit-inside kayak a perfectly reasonable diving platform. Basically, after coming to the surface and getting stuff squared away, I give a hard kick, and pull the kayak under me; as I start to tip over to the opposite side, I can put a hand on the outrigger, and then I can either slip my butt into the seat, or just lay there to rest, depending on what I was wanting to do. Caveat, be sure to have the seat and foot area cleared of junk; its a pain to arrange stuff inside the kayak, while you are floating at chin level next to the boat. The other thing a solid paddlefloat is good for is simply providing more arrangeable solid floatation, to guard against the case of completely filling the cockpit. Richard Walker Houston, TX http://www.neosoft.com/~rww/kayak_log.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Sisler, Clyde" <Clyde.Sisler_at_wang.com> To: PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Current Info on Electric or Foot Pumps? Date sent: Tue, 11 May 1999 10:56:02 -0400 > > What I'm getting from the thread is I can pretty much forget about a paddle > float rescue in the same conditions that knocked me over. If I can't stay > in the boat to start with, how am I going to get back into it? And if I can > get back in the boat, there won't be enough hands to operate a manual pump > and stay upright, assuming I can get the spray skirt on anyway. (I paddle > solo most of the time). > You just jump on that soap boax any time you want, Clyde. Your points --- and Colin's response --- are spot-on! We've got ourselves into some sort of mantra in this country that paddlefloat re-entries are the safety baseline, and, having been trained that way, I bought it for a while, too. But I don't now. In defense of paddlefloats --- and I always carry a solid foam float on my back deck (and don't trust inflatable ones at all) --- they do have a value in a quick re-entry and roll scenario. If you're out on a solo paddle in non-benign conditions and get dumped and can't roll up, the paddlefloat becomes the safety blanket to give you both the mental confidence and the physical bouyancy to get back up. Colin's points about the fact that knock-down conditions don't necessarily stay the same is well placed; unfortunately, however, conditions could also get worse instead of better. But I can't defend hand pumps, either. I know that they can empty a flooded kayak quicker than anything else, and have timed it to make the point clear to myself. But that's in benign conditions. An unexpected knock-down is scary, especially when you're out on your own --- the way you and I both paddle, Clyde --- and you need to get back in your boat quickly, get the skirt back on to keep the seas --- now a good deal closer to your cockpit rim than before --- from adding more destabilizing water to the cockpit, and get the cockpit emptied out so that you can continue to paddle or seek out a safe harbor. A non-manual pump is probably your best bet, and, in bad conditions, may be your only bet. Why do we perpetuate this paddlefloat and hand pump idea? Dunno. To me, the minimal self-rescue technique anyone who paddles open water --- especially solo --- should learn is a paddle- float assisted re-entry and roll-up. And my preference would be to have that as a last ditch backup to a combat roll. Without these --- and they're easier to learn than everyone says --- solo open water stuff isn't smart. My opinion. Now help me down off your box before I fall, Clyde. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In our last discussion on the pump issue, I posted a long winded summary of my thoughts about installing a foot pump. At the time, I was unsure that a foot pump was an improvement over a hand pump. Since then, I've gone out and tested solo rescues (most intentional, one not) in severe conditions. I found that I could perform a self rescue (after wet exit) with a hand pump, but in my unstable boat (Nordkapp) I had a very difficult time staying upright in waves and chop while using my hand pump to empty the water. Having a paddle float outrigger helped, but this was extremely awkward and left me with a bad feeling about the procedure. Two weeks ago, I installed a Henderson foot pump. While it does not empty the boat as quickly as the hand pump, it does a fairly good job at getting the water out and leaving my hands free to maintain stability and even forward progress. I'm very happy with how it works. Another suggestion that came out of the discussion a few months ago was to get the spray skirt on while upside down after performing the reentry piece of a reentry and roll. While it is (still) a difficult process, I've found that with practice that I can do it reliably so that once I roll to the surface, I'm prepared to use the foot pump and to deal with the above water conditions. The installation of the foot pump was not difficult. I installed the foot pump directly on the forward bulkhead by (gasp) drilling four holes in the bulkhead, one for each mounting screw on the pump. I created a stencil to make sure I didn't screw up the drilling. I mounted the pump directly on the bulkhead with thick rubber washers between the pump and the bulkhead to help keep the pump from rubbing directly on the bulkhead and to help keep the water out of the forward hatch. I also used the stencil to drill holes through a piece of wood. I placed that piece of wood on the inside of the hatch and passed the mounting screws through the wood and placed bolts on the end. I'm hoping that the board will distribute the pressure of the pumping motion across the entire bulkhead and will help reduce the damage to the bulkhead when the pump is used. I'm not sure that this is the optimal installation, I intend to remove the pump after a period of use to see if any damage is being caused to the front bulkhead. So far, the installation seems water tight, I've flooded the cockpit several times and no water has made its way to the forward compartment. Given that I don't have foot pegs (I use foam padding extending from the bulkhead), this seemed to be the only way to securely install the pump. As a result, my boat fits me and people like me - adjustments to other body types are difficult to make. I also drilled a 1" hole (deep gasp) for the output port - I chose to do this on the side of the boat instead of on top - I didn't want the expelled water to be blown in my face when pumping out and as a result of testing, I wasn't worried about about water intake. Tests of the new system show that it works well. Since I haven't yet installed a strum box, the pump does not get all the water out. As Jack suggests, I believe that the strum box will make a big difference. Even the way it is, it still does a very good job. After a lot of though and experimentation, I'm convinced that for boats like mine, that this is the way to go. I also gave thought to installing an electrical pump, but I dismissed that thought quickly given the complexity, the low volume pumping power, and the inevitable problems that are sure to come about mixing electricity and sea water. As for my paddle float, I never expect to use it. I've got a very reliable reentry and roll and I would use that method with just the paddle and no paddle float. I do carry a paddle float... it's there just in case... I also keep it mostly inflated behind my seat. Here, provides a comfortable back rest and fills space that water would otherwise occupy in a wet exit. Also, if I ever need it, it will be nearly ready to go. And yes, I tested that I can get it out quickly if needed. Long winded again... sorry! Greg Hollingsworth *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I'm going to regret this, but I just have to bring it up. I don't like electric pumps 'cause I don't trust the batteries. I don't like foot pumps because: (1) I have several boats and can't afford to permanently install a pump in each one. (2) I have a folding boat and I can't imagine getting a foot pump or an electric pump to work in my folding boat (or at least, not without significant modification of the boat). (3) if you don't know how to get by with a hand pump, what do you do when you use someone elses boat or a rental boat? You can always bring your hand pump along, but if you are dependent on your foot pump or your electric pump, you're out of luck. Look, the foot pump and the elctric pump are in my opinion. leaning too heavilly on equipment to save your ass. I like to use minimal equipment and then build (and practice) the skills to safely enjoy my kayaking obsession. I carry (and practice using) a handpump, and then do everything in my power to train myself so I never need it. My boat is my "other PFD". I don't swim when I paddle my sea kayak. If I fllip (and I flip alot) I'll roll. If my paddle breaks, I'll pull half a spare off my back deck and roll up. If that paddle is stuck on the deck, I'll hand roll. If the conditions are bad enough that I need to swim, I've done something really stupid and deserve to byte the big one. Its a risk-benefit game. I make the risk of a swim so small, that even with the reduced capability provided by the hand pump, my aggregate margin of error is well within my personnel comfort zone. So while Nick Gill and the folks "down under" would fail me in their basic competency tests (or whatever he called it), I feel that overall, I'm safer than many of the equipment-dependent folk out there. --Tim P.S I'm sorry for rambling on about this point. I guess I'm still in a mild state of shock after reading the account of the last voyage of Lone Matsen in the recent issue of sea kayaker (I know I have her name a bit wrong --- I don't have the magazine with me). I have frequently dreamed of repeating her exploits in the far north, so her death hit me hard. Then when I heard that neither she nor her partner could roll, I was angry. Not at her, and not at her partner (who, I suspect, will relive that voyage for the rest of his days). I am angry at an all to pervasive attitude that rolling is an esoteric trick and not something experienced paddlers should strive to master. If you haven't read that article yet, read it. It has some important lessons for all of us. In high winds, if your rescue requires that you exit your boat, you are in big trouble. By every account I've read, Lone was a fine paddler. But as she unfortunately found out, the wind will wisk your boat away in no time at all once you exit the boat. The type of pump you use is irrelevant if you and your boat are separated (or if you can't get back in for some reason). I don't want to re-ignite the debate over whether everyone should learn to roll. I can accept that many sea kayakers can safely pursue the sport without a roll. But, I do believe that anyone who participates in extreme kayaking (like open ocean kayaking off Greenland in early autum) must roll. I've heard too many sea kayakers (and even some instructors) say that sea kayakers don't need to have a roll. With few excpetions (such as physical handicap), I just don't agree with this attitude. We have a lot to learn from our brothers and sisters in the white-water world, where rolling is considered a basic skill to be mastered by everyone. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Mattson, Timothy G said > > Look, the foot pump and the elctric pump are in my opinion. leaning too > heavilly on equipment to save your ass. I like to use minimal equipment and > then build (and practice) the skills to safely enjoy my kayaking obsession. > > Its a risk-benefit game. I make the risk of a swim so small, that even > with the reduced capability provided by the hand pump, my aggregate margin > of error is well within my personnel comfort zone. So while Nick Gill and > the folks "down under" would fail me in their basic competency tests (or > whatever he called it), I feel that overall, I'm safer than many of the > equipment-dependent folk out there. > them's fighting words and I agree with them to a significant extent. Let me put my ststement about requiring pumps in context. I'll just personally point out that I have not come out of my boat in anger for about five years. I rarely capsize and I can roll reliably in conditions from flat water to big surf. I roll on every paddle i do just for practice. I personally have never HAD to use my pump but I like having one handy. I have only seriously needed my bouancy aid once, but I always wear it. on the NSW club here. We are a little sensitive about boat set up, education and leadership right now having had the possibility of legal action floated across our bows recently. We have an ongoing training program, with 3 big training weekends for beginnners and intermediates in the last six months. These are run by experienced paddlers - all volunteers. There are any number of other opps for training and building experience. We have a club paddle grading system that facilitates club paddles for all levels and enables all paddlers to know what sort of paddle they are going on. see http://203.147.209.230/calendar.htm, http://203.147.209.230/grading.htm at the skills weekends we do rolling, bracing, wet exits offshore, paddling techniques, rescues, surf work, bracing, boat set up, reading the weather, getting forecasts, reading the sea, .......etc. There is a big emphasis on the need for group support but also on the fact that the time may come when it is everyone for themselves and you need have to have skills and possibly the equipment to get through. There is also an emphasis on self vetting for paddles. For example, I know my fitness it down at the moment due an extended absence from paddling so I only go on moderate sea paddles that I know I can cope with. The Aust Canoe Federation proficiency award that I referred to is a benchmark that you can self vet (that's one of our aims at least), cope in a variety of condiitons, be part of a group and sort yourself out if the need arises. This award (http://203.147.209.230/mag/37/proficiency.html) requires a pump or self bailer capable of no hands operation. The club requires the award for certin paddles. If you turn up for a paddle and have the proficiency award paddle leaders and organisers can assume a certain level of competency and boat set up (with judicious checking) if they don't know you. After the legal issue we require it for club paddles graded 3 and above in our grading system. This is part of a wider system of training, specified responsibiities, waivers and insurance. Its a terrible thing but the other option was experienced paddlers going paddling only with their mates to avoid the possiblity of losing their homes, and the club and its capacity to help new paddlers dying in the arse. We have tried to develop a system that is not overly bureaucratic - we all just want to paddle - but which protects paddle organisers/leaders, club committee members, and those on club paddles as well, and allows us to get on with it. Our committee has worked very hard to develop all this, I can't take much credit for it. It's all new and we'll see how it goes. I might point out that the club is, of course , not the sole focus of paddlers here, many (most) often do their own thing as well. The term 'equipment dependent' is somewhat of an overstatement. The is no reason to assume from my contributions yesterday about one little aspect of sea kayaking that I and we are 'equpment dependent' and do not build and practice skills. Having said that I would endorse the sentiment of not being eqipment dependent and find it hard to fathom the inability of this woman who died to not have such a skill given the trips she seems to have taken on. nick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: Jack Martin <jcmartin43_at_radix.net> To: PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net <PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net>; Sisler, Clyde <Clyde.Sisler_at_wang.com> Date: Tuesday, May 11, 1999 11:48 AM Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Current Info on Electric or Foot Pumps? Big snip >But I can't defend hand pumps, either. I know that they can empty a flooded kayak quicker than anything else, and have timed it to make the point clear to myself. But that's in benign conditions. An unexpected knock-down is scary, especially when you're out on your own --- the way you and I both paddle, Clyde --- and you need to get back in your boat quickly, get the skirt back on to keep the seas --- now a good deal closer to your cockpit rim than before --- from adding more destabilizing water to the cockpit, and get the cockpit emptied out so that you can continue to paddle or seek out a safe harbor. A non-manual pump is probably your best bet, and, in bad conditions, may be your only bet.> How did you say you got your spraydeck back on in these rough conditions with a kayak full of this destabilizing water? Do you have a no hands method of putting on the spraydeck? How about a one hand method? Yeah, if you can do it with one hand you could skull from your other hand and your shoulder in these rough conditions while you fasten the spraydeck. Personally, I have so far been unable to put the sprayskirt on most kayaks with one hand even in calm water (especially with those which are quite rounded in the front of the cockpit. If you have a technique for doing this please share it with us, I'm all ears, er is that eyes. If you can't do it without using both hands what are you bracing with to keep yourself level while you get the skirt back on. >Why do we perpetuate this paddlefloat and hand pump idea? Dunno. > Maybe because if you fix the outrigger to the kayak you are stabilized and can use both hands for all these tasks and as you said the hand pump is the fastest method (short af a big battery and high capacity electrical pump that has been well sealed against salt water---but personally I'd still take a hand pump for that time when the battery goes dead or my legs cramp working the foot pump. (This is a personal problem I have with foot pumps but I don't know if others do. I hate Charlie-horses in a kayak more than just about anything.) Discalmer: I sell (both retail and wholesale) hand pumps and was the first that I know of to use that type of pump for bailing a kayak. Later I sold them and soon modified the gray and red pumps for kayak use by having them shortened from 24 to 18" and having the shaft reinforced to stand up to panic pumping. Traded a new Escape kayak to the retiring company founder (Frank Beckerer--who I'm sorry to say, died just recently) for the first 200 modified hand pumps back in about 1982 or 1983. >To me, the minimal self-rescue technique anyone who paddles open water --- especially solo --- should learn is a paddle- float assisted re-entry and roll-up. And my preference would be to have that as a last ditch backup to a combat roll. Without these --- and they're easier to learn than everyone says --- solo open water stuff isn't smart.> What's that technique for one handed spraydeck attaching again or do you reattach your spraydeck after you reenter but before you roll back up? I like a sea sock to help minimize the free water effect but it can make pumping a little slower and more difficult with a hand pump. Does anyone know a way a solo paddler can use an electric or foot pump with a sea sock? Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
The debate over the merits/demerits of the "outrigger paddle float self-rescue" in rough conditions has been an interesting one. [Shouldn't we change the name of this thread?] It has been particularly illuminating to have Matt Broze chime in. I suspect Matt is the preeminent advocate for use of the paddle float. Colin Calder and Nick Gill, on the other side, have made a very strong case for the futility of using a paddle float in "rough water," (paraphrasing): "If the water is so rough it knocked you down despite your best bracing efforts, the paddle float won't work." Advocates of pumping methods which leave the hands free for bracing/paddling/etc. seem convinced that the paddle float has a very limited stance in the arsenal of self rescue techniques, **for the paddling they do.** I think they are correct (note the emphasis). The debate so far has overlooked something: a huge fraction of sea kayak paddlers (at least in my part of the world) **never** paddle in conditions we would call "rough." At least, never in conditions where (I think) the paddle float would be a liability. Rather, they confine themselves to non-tide-race and non-tide-rip paddling, with only the occasional shot of nasty chop and a now-and-then landing in small (<3 foot) surf. How do they do this? They **stay on the beach** when wind and weather transfigure the mill pond into a place where their skills are inadequate. For that crowd (around seventy or eighty per-cent of the paddling population in the Pacific NW -- too low, Matt?), the outrigger paddle float self rescue system is a good one. You might wonder how they fall out of their craft in such "easy" conditions. Mostly dumb moves or ungraceful acts with a paddle blade. Then they are in relatively placid water, and the paddle float works well. I agree, in rough conditions, the paddle float is questionable. The reality is that only a small percentage of the paddlers I see on the water engage the sea in conditions where a paddle float will not work. The float is a good choice for them. It does not "... entice them into conditions where it won't work," (paraphrasing) because most of them are **terrified** of rough water and won't paddle in it. They stay on the beach, or get the hell off the water when it gets rough. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR no pump, but thinking seriously about installing one paddle-float-dependent since 1992 12-step program begins, 2000 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Kruger wrote: > > The debate over the merits/demerits of the "outrigger paddle float > self-rescue" in rough conditions has been an interesting one. [Shouldn't > we change the name of this thread?] [Correct version of last paragraph of previous post:] > I agree, in rough conditions, the paddle float is questionable. The > reality is that almost all the paddlers I see on the water > avoid sea conditions where a paddle float will not work. The float > is a good choice for them. It does not "... entice them into conditions > where it won't work," (paraphrasing) because most of them are **terrified** > of rough water and won't paddle in it. They stay on the beach, or get the > hell off the water when it gets rough. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Matt Broze" <mkayaks_at_oz.net> To: "'Paddlewise'" <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Current Info on Electric or Foot Pumps? Date sent: Wed, 12 May 1999 01:35:02 -0700 <Snips> > How did you say you got your spraydeck back on in these rough conditions > with a kayak full of this destabilizing water? Do you have a no hands method > of putting on the spraydeck? How about a one hand method? Yeah, if you can > do it with one hand you could skull from your other hand and your shoulder > in these rough conditions while you fasten the spraydeck. Personally, I have > so far been unable to put the sprayskirt on most kayaks with one hand even > in calm water (especially with those which are quite rounded in the front of > the cockpit. If you have a technique for doing this please share it with us, > I'm all ears, er is that eyes. If you can't do it without using both hands > what are you bracing with to keep yourself level while you get the skirt > back on. > Didn't intend to gore any of your sacred cows, Matt, and I'm not sure your question wasn't rhetorical, but I'll try to explain my analysis again. No, I haven't invented an anti-gravity machine or re- defined physics, but, as I said in my post, my "worst case" self rescue is to use the solid foam paddle float on my back deck for a re-entry and roll --- not a difficult task in my small cockpit, low volume Pintail. Once upright, I can get my skirt back on the cockpit rim in a few seconds --- haven't timed it, but it's a rounded front 16" by 20" cockpit, and I can get either my Palm "Combination" nylon/neoprene or my Seals all neoprene skirt back on in about five seconds using both hands. The paddle isn't generally needed for balance or support for those few seconds, but the paddlefloat is still attached and the other end of the paddle is parked under a forward bungee, leaving the float end close by for support if needed. Is it foolproof? No more than any other technique. (Another advantage I have is that my slightly over- average sized body fills up the Valley "Ocean Cockpit" opening pretty efficiently, serving as a loose cork and keeping major amounts of water out from ingressing and adding to the destabilizing factor, so I guess I could pump out first and reattach my skirt later, but never thought to try that. But I will.) Re your point about leg cramps and foot pumps: I'm sure it happens, but it hasn't yet to me. Again, I paddle low volume boats, and foam out my cockpit extensively --- back support, foot rests, knee pads, all made of minicell foam --- so I don't have a lot of water to pump out during any scenario. And the placement of the pump may have a lot to do with cramps, as well --- an uncomfortable angle? Too long a stretch to reach the pump? Lots of potential reasons for cramps, I guess. Look, a personal disclaimer in public, Matt: I don't have anything close to your depth of experience in sea kayaking, and it would be stupid for me to take you on in a "techniques" argument. My point, in response to Clyde's narrative --- and influenced to some degree by Colin's response --- was to agree that the generic paddlefloat assisted self-rescue may not be the ultimate solution it's sometimes made out to be. It may well be a technique to learn, but it's no substitute for a roll or a re-entry and roll --- float assisted or not --- and too many people seem to stop at these pool-learned points in the self-rescue continuum, thinking they're safe. In my opinion, based on eight years sea kayaking, with training from well qualified instructors, and after learning all self rescue techniques including a roll, all techniques other than a solid roll are just stopping off places and panaceas. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> them's fighting words and I agree with them to a significant extent. > Let me put my ststement about requiring pumps in context. Nick, I like lively debate, but I meant no slander of you or your abilities in a kayak. So if any offense was taken, I apologize. Your paddling club sounds impressive and I applaud the club's program to bring safety to the group trips. .... and while I don't agree with your foot-pump requirement, enforcing standards for both skills and equipment sets a high standard few clubs can match. I also want to be clear to the group that I do not believe everyone must learn to roll. I enjoy rolling and believe rolling should be considered a basic rather than an advanced skill, but I'm not a fanatic on this point. As a couple people pointed out, many (actually most) paddlers stick to lakes and calm water. I for one enjoy rolling, but there's no reason to scare someone away from flat water paddling just because they can't roll. As I suggested in my post script, (and perhaps didn't make clear enough), my concern is paddlers who explore the open ocean, great lakes or any other water that can get rough and windy. These are the people who --- in my humble opinion -- must have a roll. To depend on any method that requires exiting the boat in order to recover from a capsize, is just asking for trouble. Finally, I agree with comments that rolling isn't as important as mastering the basic strokes. This is where the white water community I hold in such high regard falls flat. Many if not most white water kayakers I've seen have no concept of how to efficiently paddle a boat. They may have balance, boat handling, and river reading skills I'll never match, but when it comes to doing the basic strokes with consistent power and efficiency, we sea kaykers have the upper hand. --Tim *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Greg, Great write up on the foot pump installation. > Another suggestion that came out of the discussion a few months ago was to get the spray skirt on while upside down after performing the reentry piece of a reentry and roll. While it is (still) a difficult process, I've found that with practice that I can do it reliably so that once I roll to the surface, I'm prepared to use the foot pump and to deal with the above water conditions. What kind of spray skirt or does it matter? I have a difficult time maintaining balance on calm water while reaching behind me to get the spray skirt started and typically rock back and forth. I have a hard shell and Perception neoprene skirt which is about as loose as it gets. I had seen previous mention during re-entry discussions of putting the spray skirt on upside down and was wondering if they were using a different type of skirt, maybe one of those touring skirts with suspenders. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> The debate so far has overlooked something: a huge fraction of sea > kayak paddlers (at least in my part of the world) **never** paddle in > conditions we would call "rough." As an aside to Dave's comment, I paddle off the Oregon coast every chance I get. About half the time I do this, the coast gaurd comes out to "rescue" me. I then talk to them and show them that I know what I'm doing and everything's cool. ... but its interesting. The Coast Gaurd finds kayaks heading out to sea so rare, they don't know how to handle it when they encounter them. Oregon is a paddler's paradise and we have huge numbers of kayakers, but only a tiny fraction of them paddle along the coast. I guess we have so many great rivers and estuaries in Oregon, that you can paddle a lifetime without once heading out to sea. --Tim *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> As an aside to Dave's comment, I paddle off the Oregon coast every chance > I get. About half the time I do this, the coast gaurd comes out to > "rescue" me. I then talk to them and show them that I know what I'm > doing and everything's cool. This is precisely why I just bought a VHF radio, so at least maybe if they over react to the absolutely unheard of situation in Texas of a Seakayaker heading offshore, I can talk to them before they get right up on me; maybe even convince them to go away, especially if I happen to be fighting a fish! I don't know if it will work, but at least I don't have to feel guilty if they waste their time after I tell them I'm fine. Richard Walker Houston, TX http://www.neosoft.com/~rww/kayak_log.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
R. Walker wrote: > > > As an aside to Dave's comment, I paddle off the Oregon coast every chance > > I get. About half the time I do this, the coast gaurd comes out to > > "rescue" me. I then talk to them and show them that I know what I'm > > doing and everything's cool. > > This is precisely why I just bought a VHF radio, so at least maybe > if they over react to the absolutely unheard of situation in Texas of > a Seakayaker heading offshore, I can talk to them before they get > right up on me; maybe even convince them to go away, especially > if I happen to be fighting a fish! This is quite a coinkeydinky -- that's why I invested in a VHF some three years ago! One of my favorite paddle campsites is prone to leaving me shorebound when the Bay gets gnarly, so I wanted a way to tell the USCG NOT to come looking for me. This was before cell phone towers sprouted all over. Now, I'd just call the dude holding my float plan and tell him to cool it -- I'm OK. (If I had a cell phone ...) -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Mattson, Timothy G wrote: > ... but its interesting. The Coast Gaurd finds kayaks heading out to sea so > rare, they don't know how to handle it when they encounter them. Oregon is > a paddler's paradise and we have huge numbers of kayakers, but only a tiny > fraction of them paddle along the coast. I guess we have so many great > rivers and estuaries in Oregon, that you can paddle a lifetime without once > heading out to sea. Oregon is a terrible place to sea kayak, and it has expensive, tasteless microbrews, too! Seriously: the surf on many of the beaches in my part of Oregon is heavy stuff, with six feet an average day in many places, and with very wide littoral cells (many miles for some), offering few "edges" to sneak past the big stuff. I question whether most FG yaks (except for British "heavy" yaks) can survive a steady diet of surf zone play or transits when the surf is big. I know of at least three FG hardshells which got severely broken in surf. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
So, Dave, that 12 Step program; is that west coast only or will there also be one here on the east coast. Debbie Reeves Sandy Hook, NJ Uninstalled foot pump owner > ---------- > -- > Dave Kruger > Astoria, OR > no pump, but thinking seriously about installing one > paddle-float-dependent since 1992 > 12-step program begins, 2000 > ************************************************************************** > * > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > ************************************************************************** > * > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
So even after I finally figure out how to get one of those hands-free pumps into my ruddered North American barge, I'll be taking the hand pump along anyway - despite the article I read that said it was one of the (begin Aussie accent here) "Things I should throw away or forget." :-) I want to know how I'm going to get my big head and shoulders into that little cockpit and then have enough room, strength and flexibility to reach my arms in past the foot peg thingees to secure a foot pump to the forward bulkhead. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Sisler, Clyde wrote: > I want to know how I'm going to get my big head and shoulders into that > little cockpit and then have enough room, strength and flexibility to reach > my arms in past the foot peg thingees to secure a foot pump to the forward > bulkhead. No guarantee it will work, but this is how to get as much upper body insertion as possible: suspend your yak horizontally from loops, fore and aft of the cockpit, with the cockpit down. Adjust the loops to raise/lower the yak to an optimal height so you can slide your arms in first, then shoulders and head. A judiciously mounted trouble light (or, a headlamp) will provide illumination. You may have to remove your yak's seat to get enough freeboard. I've worked inside the cockpits of my three singles using this technique. Not for those prone to claustrophobia! -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>I want to know how I'm going to get my big head and shoulders into that >little cockpit and then have enough room, strength and flexibility to reach >my arms in past the foot peg thingees to secure a foot pump to the forward >bulkhead. You get the kid up the street to do it for you. That's what I have a daughter for. -- Wes *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>No guarantee it will work, but this is how to get as much upper body insertion as possible: suspend your yak horizontally from loops, fore and aft of the cockpit, with the cockpit down. Adjust the loops to raise/lower the yak to an optimal height so you can slide your arms in first, then shoulders and head. A judiciously mounted trouble light (or, a headlamp) will provide illumination. Well Dave, I asked the question and that is probably a very good answer. It, however, holds absolutely no appeal for me at all. While not particularily claustrophobic, spelunking into the depths of hell holds no interest for me nor does your method. It is much to easy to picture myself getting stuck in there, standing up and running around in little circles looking like a really tall conehead, banging into trees, getting knocked on my butt, arms and legs spread... Thanx for the response tho. Clyde *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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