I finally got hold of the story about the kayaker who died in the San Juan Islands in July due to entanglement problems. A kind person on the list briefly remembered seeing a news article in _The Journal of the San Juan Islands_ and let me know. I found a reference on the internet. The newspaper's web page summary for July 7, 1999 basically states that a Friday Harbor man died in a kayaking mishap on the previous Sunday to the report (I assume July 4th). His name was Michael Paxson. The article indicated the accident took place with this 37 year old, two miles west of Point Lawrence, or at least that is where he was found. The report states that he was tethered to his boat, and his paddle was found in the cockpit. The reporter also included a speculation by a County Sheriff member that he may have been angling before the accident and was unable to exit when the kayak flipped over. I called the Sheriff's department today, and spoke with the detective assigned to the investigation. He confirmed the accidental nature of the death. He told me that Mr Paxson was considered an experienced, avid paddler and kayak fisherman, and that the accident occurred off Raccoon Point, an area known for good fishing. I asked a number of specific questions as part of an article I was doing on tethers. He was delighted to respond with any and all information I needed, and I got the distinct impression that the law enforcement officer was not impressed with self-tethering. I did mention that a year and a half ago, another very highly experienced paddler, who additionally was an ocean swimmer, died when he became separated from his kayak and/or was not able to re-enter due to lack of rescue skills/equipment. I told him the issue I was dealing with was complex, but thanked him for his convictions. Anyway, I went on to ask my questions. From that process, I learned that Michael had clipped himself to a line (possibly a deck line) running from bow to stern, with a mini carabineer off his waist. There was not enough play in the line. He was also apparently fishing, as two fishing poles were each wedged in the cockpit beside himself, respectively on each side (left and right, and stiil there about four hours after death when he was retrieved). The lines were out, hooks on each end, but the lengths of line had wrapped around him, entangling Micheal. He was wearing a PFD, and when found dead, the paddler was mostly up inside the kayak. It was a fairly large kayak (no make or model known), but had a conventional cockpit (as opposed to a recreational or semi decked canoe type). The County Sheriff representative speculated with me that there was some evidence he was drifting along fishing, while also having lunch, and must have flipped over unexpectedly (for conditions) as the paddle was inside the cockpit. The combination of entanglement in the fish line and the impossibility of being able to undo the carabineer most likely meant Micheal was completely helpless while he died from drowning. A very real tragedy. I was told that the Sheriff's department has responded to four kayak incidents since the entanglement incident, and the member wanted to know "what's up with you guys, anyway?" He said only last week they had a close call with a kayaker, who was very lucky to be alive. They also had to rescue a couple of paddlers in a double sea kayak recently, that split in two due to marijuana smugglers who were too "greedy" with the weight they were carrying < Genuine Canadian weed, as opposed to genuine Canadian Ballast Rocks(c) :-) > I told him that that was why I was phoning, to get details to help those who wanted to be wiser paddlers. My summary to PW is simple: 1) Tether your paddle as a minimum, where and when needed, as opposed to resorting to putting it in a cockpit. That would be a correct use of a tether, making it more avaliable in the event of a capsize. 2) Tethering to your boat is fine, when and where warrented of course, but you have got to have some run-out of line to give you some distance to be able to bob to the surface, independant of your kayak. Relying on a system where you would have to hold your breath in order to unclip while upside down is a disaster waiting to happen. This accident was wholly preventable. 3) Always cary an accessible knife. The Sheriff's Dept found none in connection with this incident. 4) Tandem fishing lines - come on, that's almost as greedy as the overload of illegal weed from the other incident. One pole, mounted in a rod holder, away from the cockpit, I presume, would be much safer. 4) Fishing alone, as is solo kite sailing from a kayak, in my opinion, has inherent risks easily mitigated by paddling with someone else; though with care and precautions, both activities in the solo mode can be done with a modicum of safety. Any other thoughts (constructive of course)? I can call back the Sheriff's department if I have a list of further questions, I was told. Be safe out there, all ya paddling sisters and brothers, winter be coming soon! BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Lloyd wrote: > > ...<snip>... > My summary to PW is simple: 1) Tether your > paddle as a minimum, where and when needed, as opposed to resorting to > putting it in a cockpit. That would be a correct use of a tether, making it > more avaliable in the event of a capsize. 2) Tethering to your boat is > fine, when and where warrented of course, but you have got to have some > run-out of line to give you some distance to be able to bob to the surface, > independant of your kayak. Relying on a system where you would have to hold > your breath in order to unclip while upside down is a disaster waiting to > happen. This accident was wholly preventable. 3) Always cary an accessible > knife. The Sheriff's Dept found none in connection with this incident. 4) > Tandem fishing lines - come on, that's almost as greedy as the overload of > illegal weed from the other incident. One pole, mounted in a rod holder, > away from the cockpit, I presume, would be much safer. 4) Fishing alone, as > is solo kite sailing from a kayak, in my opinion, has inherent risks easily > mitigated by paddling with someone else; though with care and precautions, > both activities in the solo mode can be done with a modicum of safety. Doug, I think that you have done an excellent job of extracting the proper conclusions (given the information about the incident that you provided). Although your subject line should perhaps read "Death by Ill-Conceived Tether". Dan Hagen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dan Hagen wrote: > > Doug Lloyd wrote: > > I think that you have done an excellent job of extracting the proper > conclusions (given the information about the incident that you > provided). Although your subject line should perhaps read "Death by > Ill-Conceived Tether". > > Dan Hagen I would agree with your comment. That tether the fellow used, i.e. a carabiner attached to a deck line running from bow to stern was pretty dangerous. It sounds like the lifelines on ships that are strung on the decks of ships in heavy weather for crew to hang on to when crossing open areas where wind or waves breaking over the ship or steep pitching of the craft itself might send someone slidding overboard. Also I find it hard to think that anyone fishing would not have a knife handy on his PFD. If you are in mode of kayaking involving lines of any kind such as in sailing or fishing, a knife is a smart thing to have. Also perhaps anyone using tethers of any kind might also want to carry a knife. The risk of entanglement in many tethering devices is quite low especially for a tether of paddle to boat particularly if it kept short. But a knife assures you have a chance of untangling if somehow things go wrong with the tether. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Very interesting report. Thanks for taking the time to dig up this information. Later.... Dan McCarty *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph Diaz wrote: >Also I find it hard to think that anyone fishing would not have a knife handy on his PFD. If you are in mode of kayaking involving lines of any kind such as in sailing or fishing, a knife is a smart thing to have. Also perhaps anyone using tethers of any kind might also want to carry a knife. The risk of entanglement in many tethering devices is quite low especially for a tether of paddle to boat particularly if it kept short. But a knife assures you have a chance of untangling if somehow things go wrong with the tether. > I too find it difficult to believe that a fisherman did not have a knife handy and would suggest that perhaps a knife was in hand, on deck or in the bilge. Since we are on the topic of tethers, let's tether our rescue knife to our PFD. Bruce WEO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bruce wrote: >Since we are on the topic of tethers, let's tether our rescue knife to our >PFD. >Bruce > WEO Preferences for tethering a knife to a PFD - Short tether or long? Stretch cord, or plain line? Something intentionally breakable (like 6 lb test fishing line) or sturdy like leather or nylon cord? Do you attach a float to an otherwise non-floating knife? (I just tuck mine in a snap pocket on my PFD with no tether. But lately I think a more secure system would be better. I keep a second knife, bigger and stronger than my cute little Spyderco rescue knife, in my fanny pack, but that one wouldn't necessarily be available in a near panic situation.) jerry. >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not >to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Outfit3029_at_aol.com wrote: > > Ralph Diaz wrote: > > >Also I find it hard to think that anyone fishing would not have a knife > handy on his PFD. > I too find it difficult to believe that a fisherman did not have a knife > handy and would suggest that perhaps a knife was in hand, on deck or in the > bilge. > Since we are on the topic of tethers, let's tether our rescue knife to our > PFD. Yes, I do. Moreover, make certain it is a knife that will not slice your hand or pierce you were you to drop it (while on its tether) and then reach for it blindly and wind up grabbing the blade; or alternatively wind up on the point while dragging it on its tether and climbing back onboard. I have such a knife that I have mentioned before. It is a hard-to-find Gerber called the Survivor. It has a blunt point and is only single edge with that edge consisting totally of large serrations. I often demonstrate to others how I can grab the blade (even run it across my palm) and not cut myself; also I stab by palm with the tip to show that it will not draw blood. I am in the market for another one of these as I have two different PFDs I use (I leave one with a stored boat and have the other PFD at home... I have sheaths on both but only one of these knives). ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph Diaz wrote: > ...<snip>... make certain it is a knife that will not slice > your hand or pierce you were you to drop it ... > ... I have such a knife that I have mentioned before. It is a hard-to-find > Gerber called the Survivor. It has a blunt point and is only single edge with > that edge consisting totally of large serrations. I have one of these, and I agree that it is an excellent knife (for the reasons you state). Unfortunately, they apparently no longer make this model. It is not listed on their Web page, and it has been a while since I have seen it listed in any catalog. I wish that I had bought more than one back when it was available. Perhaps there are still some retailers who have some sitting around in their inventories. Dan Hagen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > > Outfit3029_at_aol.com wrote: > > > > Ralph Diaz wrote: > > > > >Also I find it hard to think that anyone fishing would not have a knife > > handy on his PFD. > > I too find it difficult to believe that a fisherman did not have a knife > > handy and would suggest that perhaps a knife was in hand, on deck or in the > > bilge. > > Since we are on the topic of tethers, let's tether our rescue knife to our > > PFD. > > Yes, I do. Moreover, make certain it is a knife that will not slice > your hand or pierce you were you to drop it (while on its tether) and > then reach for it blindly and wind up grabbing the blade; or > alternatively wind up on the point while dragging it on its tether and > climbing back onboard. I have such a knife that I have mentioned > before. It is a hard-to-find Gerber called the Survivor. It has a > blunt point and is only single edge with that edge consisting totally of > large serrations. I often demonstrate to others how I can grab the > blade (even run it across my palm) and not cut myself; also I stab by > palm with the tip to show that it will not draw blood. I am in the > market for another one of these as I have two different PFDs I use (I > leave one with a stored boat and have the other PFD at home... I have > sheaths on both but only one of these knives). > > ralph diaz > Sure hope there isn't any NY muggers on this list, and find that your bad a**ed knife you carry is only good for cutting rope and spreading cheese!! :-) While I can see the point(no pun intended)of having a speciality knife, I guess.. I was brought up the old fashioned way. Like all the guns ARE loaded, and yes, all the knives are razor sharp. A knife you can't hurt yourself with. Crocadile Dundie sp? wouldn't approve. James *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
My knife (Gerber Rivery Shorty) will sink if I let go of it so I have [closely] attached bright yellow floaters to it (that way I can see it even if I drop it in dark water). Interestingly, I've never seen anyone else who has done this but I don't know why. I do know many who have dropped their knives and not be able to recover them. Debs Sandy Hook, NJ > ---------- > From: Outfit3029_at_aol.com[SMTP:Outfit3029_at_aol.com] > > I too find it difficult to believe that a fisherman did not have a knife > handy and would suggest that perhaps a knife was in hand, on deck or in > the > bilge. > Since we are on the topic of tethers, let's tether our rescue knife to our > > PFD. > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> I think that you have done an excellent job of extracting the proper >> conclusions (given the information about the incident that you >> provided). Although your subject line should perhaps read "Death by >> Ill-Conceived Tether". In the quieter (waterwise) environment of the Sea Kayaker, a rope or tether does not seem to be so threatening. In whitewater, one must consider the consequences more carefully. There have been deaths wherein the vessel went one way around a rock, while the occupant went another, with fatal consequences. Here in NJ there was a fatality a few years ago when a tuber had it tied to his foot and that scenario happened. The current issue of American Whitewater mentions a fatality involving a riverboarder who had it tethered to his foot. In the case that Doug Lloyd discussed, was that tether very short? it wasn't fully clear in the text.... JP *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, 19 Oct 1999, Dan Hagen wrote: > Ralph Diaz wrote: > > ...<snip>... make certain it is a knife that will not slice > > your hand or pierce you were you to drop it ... > > ... I have such a knife that I have mentioned before. It is a hard-to-find > > Gerber called the Survivor. It has a blunt point and is only single edge with > > that edge consisting totally of large serrations. > > I have one of these, and I agree that it is an excellent knife (for > the reasons you state). Unfortunately, they apparently no longer make > this model. It is not listed on their Web page, and it has been a > while since I have seen it listed in any catalog. I wish that I had > bought more than one back when it was available. Perhaps there are > still some retailers who have some sitting around in their > inventories. > > Dan Hagen what is significantly different between this knife and the river shorty? it also has no point and no sharp edge, and a big serated edge? i think it's biggest flaw is its shorty length, not allowing much pull when you cut... ie lots and lots of short strokes, instead of a few long ones... mark -- #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com----http://www.diac.com/~zen/mark ---- # mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [_| [_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.jacknjillz.com/paddler [index to club websites i administer] Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page -- Fortune: A smooth sea never made a skillful mariner. - English Proverb *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark Zen wrote: > > On Tue, 19 Oct 1999, Dan Hagen wrote: > > Ralph Diaz wrote: > > > ...<snip>... make certain it is a knife that will not slice > > > your hand or pierce you were you to drop it ... > > > ... I have such a knife that I have mentioned before. It is a hard-to-find > > > Gerber called the Survivor. It has a blunt point and is only single edge with > > > that edge consisting totally of large serrations. > > > > I have one of these, and I agree that it is an excellent knife (for > > the reasons you state). Unfortunately, they apparently no longer make > > this model. It is not listed on their Web page, and it has been a > > while since I have seen it listed in any catalog. I wish that I had > > bought more than one back when it was available. Perhaps there are > > still some retailers who have some sitting around in their > > inventories. > > > > Dan Hagen > > what is significantly different between this knife and the river shorty? > it also has no point and no sharp edge, and a big serated edge? i think > it's biggest flaw is its shorty length, not allowing much pull when you > cut... ie lots and lots of short strokes, instead of a few long ones... I wasn't aware that the River Shorty came in a version with no sharp edge at all. The only one I saw was with a sharp edge somewhere on it. Also the River Shorty's tip while blunt does resemble a screw driver in the sense that it has a squared off tip. I know the right angles are not particularly sharp but the Gerber Survivor's tip was as rounded off as the back end of a collar stay. A more important point. Early on, when the Shorty was first introduced, I heard tales on various 'Net groups that the knife did not hold well in its sheath and was prone to fall out. Is that true, was it true, is it still true? If the Shorty is okay in that department and I can't find the old Survivor model, I will use a Shorty on my second PFD. The sheath (empty) on my second PFD is one that holds the bigger Gerber but I could just change that. ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> > ... I have such a knife that I have mentioned before. It is a hard-to-find > Gerber called the Survivor. It has a blunt point and is only single edge with > that edge consisting totally of large serrations. I have one of these, and I agree that it is an excellent knife (for the reasons you state). Unfortunately, they apparently no longer make this model. It is not listed on their Web page, and it has been a while since I have seen it listed in any catalog. >> Gerber makes a knife called the River Shorty that has a blade like this, though the handle might be different. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
That was an excellent report. And the fact that you contacted the sheriff to get more detailed information is admirable. There were some disturbing thoughts that came after reading your report, though. Whether tethers are good or bad things to have is a matter of opinion. I teach my students to exit their boats leaving one leg inside the cockpit as being in contact with your boat should be voluntary, specially in the surf. We can debate on this on another thread. The Inuit hunters carry a lot of rope in their forward cockpit, and the risk of entanglement is high. That is one of the reasons why they have developed 30+ rolls that include rolling with more body positions than most of us can think about. They believe in increasing safety by increasing their skill level, not by using gadgets. In fact given a PFD, they would probably use it to roll up, like http://www.home.earthlink.net/~bonito/images/PFD_roll.jpg It is possible that this kind of roll would have saved the victim. Your post gives the impression that a knife is an all mighty gadget that will save your life if you ever get entangled. This can be tested in controlled conditions in a pool--tie a string around your wrist, capsize, and see if you can retrieve your knife and cut the line in less than 20 seconds (that is more time than most people would endure without breathing after capsizing by surprise). Yes, a knife increases your chances, but not dramatically, specially if you do not practice many possible scenarios regularly to keep your mind clear when the situation becomes real. Too much stuff for a single mail. Food for thought folks! - Julio *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
juliom_at_cisco.com wrote: > > The Inuit hunters carry a lot of rope in their forward cockpit, and > the risk of entanglement is high. That is one of the reasons why > they have developed 30+ rolls that include rolling with more body > positions than most of us can think about. They believe in increasing > safety by increasing their skill level, not by using gadgets. > In fact given a PFD, they would probably use it to roll up, like > http://www.home.earthlink.net/~bonito/images/PFD_roll.jpg > It is possible that this kind of roll would have saved the victim. > Speaking of PFD rolls... When I teach rolling, I use PFD rolls as a mid-term exam for the student's hip snap. If they're really using a good snap, it's easy to roll up using a PFD. If they're pushing with their hands, it won't work. So, one day last summer, after a lake paddle, I decided to see if I could substitute a PFD for a hand roll. I can hand roll a WW boat, but only rarely. So, while I was waiting for my wife to show up at the boat ramp, I tethered the paddle, flipped over, unzipped the PFD,yanked it off, and rolled back up. Hey, cool. (The subject of whether it is better to be in boat, upright, without PFD or out of boat, with PFD is another thread.) Wanting to give her the benefit of this discovery, re-donned the PFD and called to my wife, "Watch this!" Flip over, unzip PFD, remove PFD, try to roll, and suddenly get totally confused. This roll's not going to happen, so since I'm at the takeout anyway, and it's hot, let's just bail and swim. Hanging below the kayak, I dropped the PFD. This, in retrospect, was a mistake. Underwater, PFD's fall up. PFD's dropped in front of you fall up and cover your grab loop. And wrap around the boat and plaster themselves there with 15 pounds of flotation. "Blub, blub," I said energetically, clawing my way past the PFD and looking for the loop. I finally found it and swam. As I towed the boat in, Meg said "Was I supposed to see something interesting?" All I could say was "You missed it." Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > > A more important point. Early on, when the Shorty was first introduced, > I heard tales on various 'Net groups that the knife did not hold well in > its sheath and was prone to fall out. Is that true, was it true, is it > still true? I have used one for several years and it has never come out of the sheath on its own. I suspect that those who have a problem are the ones that are constantly taking the knife in and out of the sheath (to cut bagels, spread peanut butter, whatever) and are wearing down the knobby things that hold the handle into the sheath. I assume that my rescue knife is strictly a rescue knife and leave it in the sheath at all times. I have a SAK for the bagels etc. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 17:19 10/19/99 -0700, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: >> >> what is significantly different between this knife and the river shorty? >> it also has no point and no sharp edge, and a big serated edge? i think >> it's biggest flaw is its shorty length, not allowing much pull when you >> cut... ie lots and lots of short strokes, instead of a few long ones... > >I wasn't aware that the River Shorty came in a version with no sharp >edge at all. The only one I saw was with a sharp edge somewhere on it. >Also the River Shorty's tip while blunt does resemble a screw driver in >the sense that it has a squared off tip. I know the right angles are >not particularly sharp but the Gerber Survivor's tip was as rounded off >as the back end of a collar stay. it looks like there is a sharp edge, but it itsn't... i was quite surprised when a friend bought one the other day... i was under the visual impression the knife had one smooth edge, and one serrated edge, when there is really only a serrated edge... >A more important point. Early on, when the Shorty was first introduced, >I heard tales on various 'Net groups that the knife did not hold well in >its sheath and was prone to fall out. Is that true, was it true, is it >still true? If the Shorty is okay in that department and I can't find >the old Survivor model, I will use a Shorty on my second PFD. The >sheath (empty) on my second PFD is one that holds the bigger Gerber but >I could just change that. > >ralph >-- i would be curious about that too ... otherwise i am considering a folder instead... with locking blade. mark -- #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com-------------------------------------- mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.jacknjillz.com/paddler [index of Paddling websites I manage] Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page -- Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. --Pablo Picasso *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Julio wrote: >That was an excellent report. And the fact that you contacted the >sheriff to get more detailed information is admirable. There were >some disturbing thoughts that came after reading your report, though. Yea, you should see my phone bill. I also called Baffin Island on another kayaker death I'm doing, and I think my wife is going to kill *me* when she sees the bill. I will be calling the sheriff on Wed again, to find out about the exact tether arrangement the dead kayaker used, and post the results later this week. >Whether tethers are good or bad things to have is a matter of opinion. I >teach my students to exit their boats leaving one leg inside the cockpit >as being in contact with your boat should be voluntary, specially >in the surf. We can debate on this on another thread. We could. However, I will mention that one can easily "over coach" this whole issue of wet exiting. I simply tell students that they should maintain contact with their paddle and kayak. For some, that means the "leg-in" method. For others, especially with deck lines running along side the cockpit, it is easier to maintain a grip on the kayak as you exit. At a minimum, I do tell newbies learning the wet exit to make sure they take off their kayak like you would a pair of pants. The biggest issue teaching the wet exit, other than the perception of danger of having to place your head underwater and grabbing and pulling the grab loop, is getting them to make sure the back of the skirt has also come off the coaming. Of course, the bigger the cockpit and looser the skirt, the less of an issue all this is. Personally, I find a wrist tether works well when wet exiting, as you then only have to worry about the kayak. A paddle to boat tether is nice too, because then if you have the paddle in hand, you also have the kayak. But again, I wouldn't over coach the issue. And I totally agree, it is best to teach all kayak rescue strategies from the perspective of no adjunctive gear, then add stuff later as back-up. When I wet exit, I always turn my head to the side that has the paddle if I can, then as I come out beside the kayak, I rise to the surface with the paddle between me and the boat. Getting back to my original accident post, I was not trying to advocate a paddle tether (though I would on a different venue). I was simply trying to make a point that in my opinion, the cockpit is not the best place to store a paddle. However, I do not fish from a kayak, so don't know of all the issues and complications. I belive Outside Magazine has a gear and adventure supplement out on the newstands right now. On the front cover is, you guessed it, "Extreme Fishing", and an article inside on fishing off the coast of California by kayak. The marriage between the paddling and fishing industries is just in the courting stages, but the love affair is bound to be hot n' heavy. You can get a newsletter called "Yak Attack", and a website exists at <kayakfishing.com> Ocean Kayak, makers of these SOTs, are coming out with special gear, including paddle holders, etc. I hope safety will be emphasized, and the need to be proficient in the sport of kayaking as a whole. I also predict more deaths from kayak fishing related activities. Anyway, if I have not addressed your point, it is probably due to that nasty part of e-mail exchanges where one doesn't always understand the question because immediate qualification of a statement is not possible (plus I confuse easily!). I do know that enough people use tethers that you can't arbitrarily discount them for the paddling populace at large. >The Inuit hunters carry a lot of rope in their forward cockpit, and >the risk of entanglement is high. That is one of the reasons why >they have developed 30+ rolls that include rolling with more body >positions than most of us can think about. They believe in increasing >safety by increasing their skill level, not by using gadgets. >In fact given a PFD, they would probably use it to roll up, like > http://www.home.earthlink.net/~bonito/images/PFD_roll.jpg >It is possible that this kind of roll would have saved the victim. Yes, right again Julio. However, your holy war against gadgets will not succeed, not on this continent of gadget-guys and gadget-gals, especially with Inspector Gadget, me, promoting gadgets and writing articles about them and telling friends to buy things like Sea-Seats (c) if they paddle solo in rough stuff. But the truth be know, your approach is refreshing and your essential philosophy of keeping it simple with an emphasis on skill development is actually at the heart of sea kayaking as a heritage, lifestyle, and a sport. I have a friend like you, an avowed simpleton, er, I'll rephrase that... an avowed promoter of simplicity, skill and technique over brawn and gadgets. He stands in one corner, screaming his message, while I stand in the other corner, shouting out the gospel of back-up strategies ad infinitum. Somewhere in the middle of the ring is the truth. And heck, Paul Caffyn didn't even use his PFD during an emergency paddle float style self rescue - he used his sleeping pad. Like, whatever works. >Your post gives the impression that a knife is an all mighty gadget >that will save your life if you ever get entangled. This can be tested >in controlled conditions in a pool--tie a string around your wrist, >capsize, and see if you can retrieve your knife and cut the line >in less than 20 seconds (that is more time than most people would >endure without breathing after capsizing by surprise). Yes, a knife >increases your chances, but not dramatically, specially if you do >not practice many possible scenarios regularly to keep your mind >clear when the situation becomes real. Absolutely right on again, Julio. To think that a knife will get you out of trouble, while upside down with seconds of air remaining if you went over on an exhalation breath, is a fallacious notion indeed (see my other post, also). However, my post took the moral high ground which prudence would dictate that carrying a knife isn't just for old Sly, Sylvester Stallon. As with any safety device, knife, flare, whatever, I always wonder what my last thought would be if I needed said piece of equipment, and didn't have it. That is why you see top kayakers like Chris Cunningham who lives and breaths Inuit traditional kayaking, carrying lots of "gadgets" when he is out tripping. But again, you do bring some balance into the "ring". Ding Ding!! >Too much stuff for a single mail. Food for thought folks! Wanna have a food fight? :-) BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd >- Julio > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not >to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph - I have had my River Shorty for a least 2 years and the only times it has come out of its sheath was while doing rescues. On each rescue day it only came out once, so considering I probably was rescuer/rescuee 30 or more times each day, that's pretty good. I have never used it on the shoreline, but I do take it out and rinse it after every saltwater trip (but it is still rusting). Debs > ---------- > From: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com[SMTP:rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com] > > A more important point. Early on, when the Shorty was first introduced, > I heard tales on various 'Net groups that the knife did not hold well in > its sheath and was prone to fall out. Is that true, was it true, is it > still true? > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Reeves, Debbie (Debbie) wrote: > > Ralph - > > I have had my River Shorty for a least 2 years and the only times it has > come out of its sheath was while doing rescues. On each rescue day it only > came out once, so considering I probably was rescuer/rescuee 30 or more > times each day, that's pretty good. I have never used it on the shoreline, > but I do take it out and rinse it after every saltwater trip (but it is > still rusting). > > Debs That sounds like an okay record regarding how well it holds in the sheath. BTW, they all rust no matter what the claims about being stainless steel and no matter how much you rinse with fresh water. Maybe it is the high salinity of the saltwater in places around here. I have noticed that I get more rust when paddling in shallow areas of Long Island Sound like City Island or Great South Bay on Long Island's South Shore than I do in the harbor which has fresh water flow from the Hudson. I don't rinse mine, and, of course, it rusts. The rust has not at all been on the blade, just in the handle area. All I watch is that the rust not get in the way of the flexible stainless steel clamp part of the knife that holds it in its sheath. Every year or so, I use WD 40 to break up the rust and rub the most persistent rust areas with fine sand paper. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Another testimonial for the River Shorty: I've had one on the lashing patch of my PFD for about seven years. Was concerned with pendant (i.e., handle down) mounting of that knife --- which the manufacturer specifically recommended *not* doing when I bought it --- but have not had any problems with it coming loose. Did add some duct tape to the handle where it engages the teeth in the sheath to add more purchase when I ran it back in, and that did seem to add some resistance. Good knife. And, yes, stainless steel rusts --- just has some better resistive powers than other metals. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jack Martin mentions using Thule or Yakima racks with pads on them and a kayak stacker in the middle of the bars. I used such a setup for years and it worked real well. The pads were more than enough to protect delicate little ole folding kayaks and the stackers in the middle gave a firm anchor to secure the tied down boats from the sideways pressures created by speeding truck and trailers. Nothing could be more solid. ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, 20 Oct 1999 rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > Jack Martin mentions using Thule or Yakima racks with pads on them and a > kayak stacker in the middle of the bars. I used such a setup for years > and it worked real well. The pads were more than enough to protect > delicate little ole folding kayaks Hi guys, folks have mentioned using straight pads with folding kayaks, and I keep wondering, what happens when you strap it down? Seems like it would then ride on the keel tube plus one chine tube, instead of straight with the keel tube down. Then I'd worry that some kind of distortion might occur in a long trip. Not a problem? e Elaine Harmon - eilidh_at_dc.seflin.org - eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Elaine Harmon wrote: > > On Wed, 20 Oct 1999 rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > > > Jack Martin mentions using Thule or Yakima racks with pads on them and a > > kayak stacker in the middle of the bars. I used such a setup for years > > and it worked real well. The pads were more than enough to protect > > delicate little ole folding kayaks > > Hi guys, folks have mentioned using straight pads with folding kayaks, and > I keep wondering, what happens when you strap it down? Seems like it would > then ride on the keel tube plus one chine tube, instead of straight with > the keel tube down. Then I'd worry that some kind of distortion might > occur in a long trip. Not a problem? e > > Elaine Harmon - eilidh_at_dc.seflin.org - eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu Elaine, Not a problem with straight pads. I've done it with both wooden framed and aluminum framed folding kayaks of every kind and every width. Moreover, I have not been dainty about how hard I pull down on the webbing straps. I pull down so hard on such straps that I scared the hell out of a lady paddler when I started to do the same with her kevlar kayak when her precious boat was riding on straight pads on my mini-van. Yes, invariably, the boat will tilt to one side so that, in addition to the keel bar, a chine stringer will also be in contact with the pad. However, do make certain to use some sort of pad since pressing down on a wooden framed boat while on an un-cushioned naked roof rack bar could break a wooden chine rod (I don't know how an aluminum chine rod would do). I had that happen once, the only time in 10 years that I have ever broken anything on a wooden framed folding kayak. Serves the boat right for trying to imitate hardshells by riding on roof racks and showing off to the motoring public. :-) As for possible distortion, it ain't going to happen unless you get Arnold Swartznegger to lash your boat down. The pressures that would distort the folding kayak resting on keel and chine would also be enough to damage many a hardshell, i.e. it ain't going to happen with mere mortals doing the lashing down. Also, I do not let air out of the sponsons at all unless it promises to be a particularly hot day with brutal sun and I am starting off early in a cool morning (the heated up expanding in the sponson under such extreme temperature changes could stress the sponsons). Keeping air in the sponsons allows the webbing straps to press in hard at their point of contact with the sides of the folding kayak and indent them by quite a bit, thus adding to the grip on the boat against forward movement in the event of panic braking. So leave the sponsons full of air except for the above extreme temperature change situation or if you expect to go through a rapid elevation change such as you may see in California if headed to mountain lakes. In the latter the altitude change could cause a popped sponson as the compressed air expands with the lower ambient air pressures. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, 21 Oct 1999 rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > As for possible distortion, it ain't going to happen unless you get > Arnold Swartznegger to lash your boat down. If I could do that, I'd get him to lash me down instead.... e, who always wondered about B&D but hardly ever got to try it Elaine Harmon - eilidh_at_dc.seflin.org - eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com wrote: > > Another testimonial for the River Shorty: I've had one on the lashing patch of my PFD for about seven years. Was concerned with pendant <snip> I like the Gerber knives very much. However we have lost 2 of the four I bought for my two sons, daughter and myself. One just disappeared- no idea when it came out of the sheath. The other was dislodged when my son was pulling himself onto our cataraft after a cool down swim. It caught on the raft frame, popped out and sank. The tether idea sounds good despite the potential problems. FWIW An acquaintance of mine was nearly killed when a rope wrapped around his leg while he was lining a boat on a river. He was dragged over 100 yards and swore that he would never go near a boat without a rescue knife on his PFD again. A knife may not be a panacea but it increases the odds of a safe trip. Walt Park City, UT *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Walt Chudleigh wrote: > caught on the raft frame, popped out and sank. The tether idea sounds > good despite the potential problems. FWIW An acquaintance of mine was > nearly killed when a rope wrapped around his leg while he was lining a > boat on a river. He was dragged over 100 yards and swore that he would > never go near a boat without a rescue knife on his PFD again. A knife > may not be a panacea but it increases the odds of a safe trip. When I first started kayaking the last thing I wanted was to effect the Rambo look or the Reynolds look from Deliverance, i.e. big macho knife hanging upside down from one shoulder at the ready. But one day I was attending one of the million demo days, that most of us beginners seem to search out when we first start off. There was a guy who I respected very much, a quiet individual with no flair for the dramatic or a macho bone in his body. This time he was sporting a knife on his PFD a la Rambo as he was demonstrating something or other. I asked "Why the knife?" And he went into a long story about getting caught by some line when wet exiting or attempting to roll. He was barely able to get his head above water and I can't recall how it was all resolved. But he realized then that a knife would have reduced a difficult situation from panic to manageable. Of course within a week I got a knife and the devil with the macho look ans stares I often get for it. On tethers, as a result of the discussions here I have gotten a River Shorty as a knife for my second PFD that resides with a boat I keep assembled. While considering tethers, I hit upon an interesting solution of where to connect to. I can't remember if I have shared this on Paddlewise or in private email but for what it is worth here is a workable solution for tether length and where to connect the non-knife end of the tether (I retrofitted this to my other PFD as well). Most sheaths that come with knives have a small hole at the tip area. Provided that the sheath itself is well secured to the PFD via one of those lash tabs almost all PFDs have, you can secure the non-knife end of the tether to that hole. That small hole will accept the kind of ring used to hold keys. The non-knife end of the tether, if equipped with a snap hook, can secure to that ring. This way you can instantly detach your knife from the sheath if you want to hand it over to someone or use it yourself away from your PFD. I have been using such a snap hook for about 10 years; it is nickle plated, has a swivel eyehole for tying the tether to and is available from West Marine; it has shown zero corrosion. As for tether line length, basically aim for enough line to be able to hold the knife and, more or less, be able to straighten out your arm. I am left handed and almost all knife tabs are on the left shoulder of PFDs. So my tether is a lot shorter than one that would go across my torso in a cross body pull (i.e. left shoulder tabs favor a right hand pull). Figure out if the length of line may be too much and possibly entangle you. My tether is just 19 inches long (even though I have long arms, the tether attachment to the sheath's tip helps reduce the length of tether I need to stretch out my arm when hold the knife). Use non-stretch line not parachute line as the latter tends to cling more if it catches on you, I guess because of its surface and stretchiness. The line then hangs in a loop from the sheath with one end (the snap hook) attached to the key ring in the sheath's tip and the other end from the rear part of the handle where it is tied. The loop is relatively short and not likely to get snagged. However, if you are still nervous and there is a pocket in the immediate area or some webbing through which you can gather part of that loop, do so; but make certain that the gathered line will flow out unimpeded when the knife is needed. I hope this is helpful. Do your own experimenting to see what will work for you, though. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Use non-stretch line not parachute line as the latter tends to cling > more if it catches on you, I guess because of its surface and > stretchiness. <snip> > I hope this is helpful. Do your own experimenting to see what will work > for you, though. Hi Ralph, I haven't done this yet but thought I'd bounce it off you and the other PW'ers to see what you think: I'm thinking for something like this; I want a low strength tether. I want it strong enough to keep it from falling into the big blue should I drop it, but weak enough that I could snap it with a sturdy yank if it became entangled. The thin diameter might make it small enough that I could then stuff the tether into the knife sheath. That might be a hassle for someone who uses their knife for other things, but for me there would be little need to take it out of the sheath except to dry or if the you know what hits the fan. Can you folks think of the down side(s) to this arrangement? I suppose you could cut the tether pulling it out of the sheath. But it would be out of the way and less likely to tangle if packed carefully. Woody *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I keep my river shorty lathered in silicone grease -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net] On Behalf Of JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 3:01 PM To: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com; dreeves_at_lucent.com Cc: canoeist_at_netbox.com; paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Death by Tether Another testimonial for the River Shorty: I've had one on the lashing patch of my PFD for about seven years. Was concerned with pendant (i.e., handle down) mounting of that knife --- which the manufacturer specifically recommended *not* doing when I bought it --- but have not had any problems with it coming loose. Did add some duct tape to the handle where it engages the teeth in the sheath to add more purchase when I ran it back in, and that did seem to add some resistance. Good knife. And, yes, stainless steel rusts --- just has some better resistive powers than other metals. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
We have River Shorties and neither one of us has ever had it come out unintentionally, not even when doing rescues. After each trip we take the knives out of their sheathes and at least wipe them down. We don't put them back until we're ready to go out again, so they have plenty of time to dry. (There's an opening in the handle, so we just slip it over the hanger that the PFD is hanging on). Two knives - about a year & a half old - no rust. Joan & Bob On Wed, 20 Oct 1999 14:15:45 -0700 rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com writes: > Reeves, Debbie (Debbie) wrote: > > > > Ralph - > > > > I have had my River Shorty for a least 2 years and the only times > it has > > come out of its sheath was while doing rescues. On each rescue > day it only > > came out once, so considering I probably was rescuer/rescuee 30 or > more > > times each day, that's pretty good. I have never used it on the > shoreline, > > but I do take it out and rinse it after every saltwater trip (but > it is > > still rusting). > > > > Debs > > That sounds like an okay record regarding how well it holds in the > sheath. > > BTW, they all rust no matter what the claims about being stainless > steel > and no matter how much you rinse with fresh water. Maybe it is the > high > salinity of the saltwater in places around here. I have noticed > that I > get more rust when paddling in shallow areas of Long Island Sound > like > City Island or Great South Bay on Long Island's South Shore than I > do in > the harbor which has fresh water flow from the Hudson. > > I don't rinse mine, and, of course, it rusts. The rust has not at > all > been on the blade, just in the handle area. All I watch is that the > rust not get in the way of the flexible stainless steel clamp part of > the knife that holds it in its sheath. Every year or so, I use WD > 40 to > break up the rust and rub the most persistent rust areas with fine > sand > paper. > > ralph diaz > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter > PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 > Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com > "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ************************************************************************* ** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author > and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > ************************************************************************* ** ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph Diaz wrote: > The loop is relatively short and not likely to get snagged. However, if you are >still nervous and there is a pocket in the immediate area or some >webbing through which you can gather part of that loop, do so; but make >certain that the gathered line will flow out unimpeded when the knife is >needed. > >I hope this is helpful. Do your own experimenting to see what will work >for you, though. I thought I would take Ralph advice and experiment with a tether for my knife. I have always been concerned with having a loop of string hanging off my vest and having it snag on things. I just realized I had the solution on my fishing vest, a small device that retracts its own string. I use it to keep my line clippers and forceps handy and not have to worry about dropping them in the water. They have a pin on the back to clip to your vest and are about the size of a nickel. You can pick these up at any fishing store for a couple of bucks and can buy different sizes with line ranging from 12 to 36 inches in length. I have used these things for years on my fishing vest without any trouble but I've never used one in salt water ). I hope to try it out on the water ( and maybe beneath ) with my Gerber River Shorty this weekend and see how effective it works. Interested to hear anyones thoughts on shortcomings of this system. Andrew Jones ______________________________ Kingfisher Wilderness Adventures Ltd. North Vancouver, BC, Canada Ph. 604-831-6180 kingfshr_at_idmail.com www.kingfisher-adventures.com ______________________________ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Kingfisher Wilderness Adventures Ltd wrote: > I thought I would take Ralph advice and experiment with a tether for my > knife. > > I have always been concerned with having a loop of string hanging off my > vest and having it snag on things. I just realized I had the solution on my > fishing vest, a small device that retracts its own string. I use it to keep > my line clippers and forceps handy and not have to worry about dropping them > in the water. They have a pin on the back to clip to your vest and are about > the size of a nickel. You can pick these up at any fishing store for a > couple of bucks and can buy different sizes with line ranging from 12 to 36 > inches in length. > > I have used these things for years on my fishing vest without any trouble > but I've never used one in salt water ). I hope to try it out on the water > ( and maybe beneath ) with my Gerber River Shorty this weekend and see how > effective it works. > > Interested to hear anyones thoughts on shortcomings of this system. I have also looked at them and they may make sense. Even if they were not to hold up to saltwater (which I see no reason why they wouldn't hold up), you could replace them every few years. Also Bob Woodward asked about using line that could break if in an emergency you got entangled with your knife tether. Probably would work since all you want the knife tether to do is to allow you to drop the knife and still recover it rather than it get lost to the deep blue sea. It doesn't need the strength of a paddle tether where you might have to hang on to a boat that is running away from you in the wind. The latter tether needs some holding power. A knife one need not have so much strenght. ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I just realized I had the solution on my > fishing vest, a small device that retracts its own string. I use > it to keep my line clippers and forceps handy and not have to worry about > dropping them in the water. I use something like this to hold my security badge for work. About the diameter of a quarter. I had just assumed the spring would quickly rust in salt water, but now that I see they make them for fishing, it may be an ideal solution! The string is also fine enough you could probably break it if it was standing between you and entrapment. Woody *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> Also Bob Woodward asked about using line that could break if in an emergency you got entangled with your knife tether. Probably would work since all you want the knife tether to do is to allow you to drop the knife and still recover it rather than it get lost to the deep blue sea. It doesn't need the strength of a paddle tether where you might have to hang on to a boat that is running away from you in the wind. The latter tether needs some holding power. A knife one need not have so much strenght. ralph >> However, it might not prevent you from losing your knife if it snags on the kayak during a reentry. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I haven't been paying attention to this thread until now, but....let's see if I'm on the right track - at the last trade show Charlie Wahlbridge (sp?) and I had a conversation in the Extrasport booth about how knives always hit me in the chin. In whitewater it's nice to have them on the shoulder so your opposite hand hand just reach up and pull straight down. He recommended a small Spyderco Clipit Jr. and.....a custom-made sheath by someone at the Nantahala Outdoor Center. I got the knife and put it in my lifejacket pocket tied by some small rope, but of course as I've been teaching a lot of coastal kayaking lately, I took it out the other day to find it rusted already. I took note of the fixes for that earlier. I wish rust wasn't such a problem, it's hard to keep up with all the rinsing, etc. Andree Hurley Hurley Design Communications - ICQ# 27469637 On-line Editor - http://www.canoekayak.com Other Kayaking - http://www.onwatersports.com Web Sites for Specialty Businesses - http://www.viewit.com/HDC/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > > Kingfisher Wilderness Adventures Ltd wrote: > > > I thought I would take Ralph advice and experiment with a tether for my > > knife. > > > > I have always been concerned with having a loop of string hanging off my > > vest and having it snag on things. I just realized I had the solution on my > > fishing vest, a small device that retracts its own string. I use it to keep > > my line clippers and forceps handy and not have to worry about dropping them > > in the water. They have a pin on the back to clip to your vest and are about > > the size of a nickel. You can pick these up at any fishing store for a > > couple of bucks and can buy different sizes with line ranging from 12 to 36 > > inches in length. > > > > I have used these things for years on my fishing vest without any trouble > > but I've never used one in salt water ). I hope to try it out on the water > > ( and maybe beneath ) with my Gerber River Shorty this weekend and see how > > effective it works. > > > > Interested to hear anyones thoughts on shortcomings of this system. > > I have also looked at them and they may make sense. Even if they were > not to hold up to saltwater (which I see no reason why they wouldn't > hold up), you could replace them every few years. >SNIP< One might also check to make sure the knife will not be able to snap back at you, if you dropped it. That was the first thing that came to my mind. Kind of like on a bungie.. Sure would ruin your day to be stabbed in the face(or anywhere)by a knife that slipped out of your hand and the tether was under tension. James *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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