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From: Doug Lloyd <dlloyd_at_bc.sympatico.ca>
subject: [Paddlewise] Death by Tether
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 21:18:20 -0700
I finally got hold of the story about the kayaker who died in the San Juan
Islands in July due to entanglement problems. A kind person on the list
briefly remembered seeing a news article in _The Journal of the San Juan
Islands_ and let me know. I found a reference on the internet. The
newspaper's web page summary for July 7, 1999 basically states that a
Friday Harbor man died in a kayaking mishap on the previous Sunday to the
report (I assume July 4th). His name was Michael Paxson. The article
indicated the accident took place with this 37 year old, two miles west of
Point Lawrence, or at least that is where he was found. The report states
that he was tethered to his boat, and his paddle was found in the cockpit.
The reporter also included a speculation by a County Sheriff member that he
may have been angling before the accident and was unable to exit when the
kayak flipped over.

I called the Sheriff's department today, and spoke with the detective
assigned to the investigation. He confirmed the accidental nature of the
death. He told me that Mr Paxson was considered an experienced, avid
paddler and kayak fisherman, and that the accident occurred off Raccoon
Point, an area known for good fishing. I asked a number of specific
questions as part of an article I was doing on tethers. He was delighted to
respond with any and all information I needed, and I got the distinct
impression that the law enforcement officer was not impressed with
self-tethering. I did mention that a year and a half ago, another very
highly experienced paddler, who additionally was an ocean swimmer, died
when he became separated from his kayak and/or was not able to re-enter due
to lack of rescue skills/equipment. I told him the issue I was dealing with
was complex, but thanked him for his convictions. 

Anyway, I went on to ask my questions. From that process, I learned that
Michael had clipped himself to a line (possibly a deck line) running from
bow to stern, with a mini carabineer off his waist. There was not enough
play in the line. He was also apparently fishing, as two fishing poles were
each wedged in the cockpit beside himself, respectively on each side (left
and right, and stiil there about four hours after death when he was
retrieved). The lines were out, hooks on each end, but the lengths of line
had wrapped around him, entangling Micheal. He was wearing a PFD, and when
found dead, the paddler was mostly up inside the kayak. It was a fairly
large kayak (no make or model known), but had a conventional cockpit (as
opposed to a recreational or semi decked canoe type). 

The County Sheriff representative speculated with me that there was some
evidence he was drifting along fishing, while also having lunch, and must
have flipped over unexpectedly (for conditions) as the paddle was inside
the cockpit. The combination of entanglement in the fish line and the
impossibility of being able to undo the carabineer most likely meant
Micheal was completely helpless while he died from drowning. A very real
tragedy.

I was told that the Sheriff's department has responded to four kayak
incidents since the entanglement incident, and the member wanted to know
"what's up with you guys, anyway?" He said only last week they had a close
call with a kayaker, who was very lucky to be alive. They also had to
rescue a couple of paddlers in a double sea kayak recently, that split in
two due to marijuana smugglers who were too "greedy" with the weight they
were carrying < Genuine Canadian weed, as opposed to genuine Canadian
Ballast Rocks(c) :-) >

I told him that that was why I was phoning, to get details to help those
who wanted to be wiser paddlers. My summary to PW is simple: 1) Tether your
paddle as a minimum, where and when needed, as opposed to resorting to
putting it in a cockpit. That would be a correct use of a tether, making it
more avaliable in the event of a capsize. 2) Tethering to your boat is
fine, when and where warrented of course, but you have got to have some
run-out of line to give you some distance to be able to bob to the surface,
independant of your kayak. Relying on a system where you would have to hold
your breath in order to unclip while upside down is a disaster waiting to
happen. This accident was wholly preventable. 3) Always cary an accessible
knife. The Sheriff's Dept found none in connection with this incident. 4)
Tandem fishing lines - come on, that's almost as greedy as the overload of
illegal weed from the other incident. One pole, mounted in a rod holder,
away from the cockpit, I presume, would be much safer. 4) Fishing alone, as
is solo kite sailing from a kayak, in my opinion, has inherent risks easily
mitigated by paddling with someone else; though with care and precautions,
both activities in the solo mode can be done with a modicum of safety.

Any other thoughts (constructive of course)? I can call back the Sheriff's
department if I have a list of further questions, I was told. 

Be safe out there, all ya paddling sisters and brothers, winter be coming
soon!

BC'in Ya
Doug Lloyd
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From: Dan Hagen <dan_at_hagen.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Death by Tether
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 22:38:24 -0700
Doug Lloyd wrote:
> 
> ...<snip>...
>  My summary to PW is simple: 1) Tether your
> paddle as a minimum, where and when needed, as opposed to resorting to
> putting it in a cockpit. That would be a correct use of a tether, making it
> more avaliable in the event of a capsize. 2) Tethering to your boat is
> fine, when and where warrented of course, but you have got to have some
> run-out of line to give you some distance to be able to bob to the surface,
> independant of your kayak. Relying on a system where you would have to hold
> your breath in order to unclip while upside down is a disaster waiting to
> happen. This accident was wholly preventable. 3) Always cary an accessible
> knife. The Sheriff's Dept found none in connection with this incident. 4)
> Tandem fishing lines - come on, that's almost as greedy as the overload of
> illegal weed from the other incident. One pole, mounted in a rod holder,
> away from the cockpit, I presume, would be much safer. 4) Fishing alone, as
> is solo kite sailing from a kayak, in my opinion, has inherent risks easily
> mitigated by paddling with someone else; though with care and precautions,
> both activities in the solo mode can be done with a modicum of safety.

Doug,

I think that you have done an excellent job of extracting the proper
conclusions (given the information about the incident that you
provided). Although your subject line should perhaps read "Death by
Ill-Conceived Tether".

Dan Hagen
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From: <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Death by Tether
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 08:02:45 -0700
Dan Hagen wrote:
> 
> Doug Lloyd wrote:
> 
> I think that you have done an excellent job of extracting the proper
> conclusions (given the information about the incident that you
> provided). Although your subject line should perhaps read "Death by
> Ill-Conceived Tether".
> 
> Dan Hagen

I would agree with your comment.  That tether the fellow used, i.e. a
carabiner attached to a deck line running from bow to stern was pretty
dangerous.  It sounds like the lifelines on ships that are strung on the
decks of ships in heavy weather for crew to hang on to when crossing
open areas where wind or waves breaking over the ship or steep pitching
of the craft itself might send someone slidding overboard.

Also I find it hard to think that anyone fishing would not have a knife
handy on his PFD.  If you are in mode of kayaking involving lines of any
kind such as in sailing or fishing, a knife is a smart thing to have. 
Also perhaps anyone using tethers of any kind might also want to carry a
knife.  The risk of entanglement in many tethering devices is quite low
especially for a tether of paddle to boat particularly if it kept
short.  But a knife assures you have a chance of untangling if somehow
things go wrong with the tether.

ralph diaz
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From: <dmccarty_at_us.ibm.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Death by Tether
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 09:42:10 -0400
Very interesting report.  Thanks for taking the time to dig up this information.

Later....
Dan McCarty


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From: <Outfit3029_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Death by Tether
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 10:13:14 EDT
Ralph Diaz wrote:

>Also I find it hard to think that anyone fishing would not have a knife
handy on his PFD.  If you are in mode of kayaking involving lines of any
kind such as in sailing or fishing, a knife is a smart thing to have. 
Also perhaps anyone using tethers of any kind might also want to carry a
knife.  The risk of entanglement in many tethering devices is quite low
especially for a tether of paddle to boat particularly if it kept
short.  But a knife assures you have a chance of untangling if somehow
things go wrong with the tether.
>
  
I too find it difficult to believe that a fisherman did not have a knife 
handy and would suggest that perhaps a knife was in hand, on deck or in the 
bilge.
Since we are on the topic of tethers, let's tether our rescue knife to our 
PFD.

Bruce
 WEO
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From: Jerry Hawkins <jhawkins_at_cisco.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Death by Tether
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 09:11:42 -0700
Bruce wrote:
>Since we are on the topic of tethers, let's tether our rescue knife to our 
>PFD.
>Bruce
> WEO

Preferences for tethering a knife to a PFD - 
Short tether or long?
Stretch cord, or plain line?
Something intentionally breakable (like 6 lb test fishing line) or sturdy like leather or nylon cord?
Do you attach a float to an otherwise non-floating knife?

(I just tuck mine in a snap pocket on my PFD with no tether.  But lately I think a more secure system would be better.  I keep a second knife, bigger and stronger than my cute little Spyderco rescue knife, in my fanny pack, but that one wouldn't necessarily be available in a near panic situation.)

jerry.






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From: <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Death by Tether
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 12:47:45 -0700
Outfit3029_at_aol.com wrote:
> 
> Ralph Diaz wrote:
> 
> >Also I find it hard to think that anyone fishing would not have a knife
> handy on his PFD. 
> I too find it difficult to believe that a fisherman did not have a knife
> handy and would suggest that perhaps a knife was in hand, on deck or in the
> bilge.
> Since we are on the topic of tethers, let's tether our rescue knife to our
> PFD.

Yes, I do.  Moreover, make certain it is a knife that will not slice
your hand or pierce you were you to drop it (while on its tether) and
then reach for it blindly and wind up grabbing the blade; or
alternatively wind up on the point while dragging it on its tether and
climbing back onboard.  I have such a knife that I have mentioned
before.  It is a hard-to-find Gerber called the Survivor.  It has a
blunt point and is only single edge with that edge consisting totally of
large serrations.  I often demonstrate to others how I can grab the
blade (even run it across my palm) and not cut myself; also I stab by
palm with the tip to show that it will not draw blood.  I am in the
market for another one of these as I have two different PFDs I use (I
leave one with a stored boat and have the other PFD at home... I have
sheaths on both but only one of these knives).

ralph diaz
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From: Dan Hagen <dan_at_hagen.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Death by Tether
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 10:52:55 -0700
Ralph Diaz wrote:

> ...<snip>... make certain it is a knife that will not slice
> your hand or pierce you were you to drop it ...

> ... I have such a knife that I have mentioned before.  It is a hard-to-find
> Gerber called the Survivor.  It has a blunt point and is only single edge with
> that edge consisting totally of large serrations.

I have one of these, and I agree that it is an excellent knife (for the reasons
you state). Unfortunately, they apparently no longer make this model. It is not
listed on their Web page, and it has been a while since I have seen it listed in
any catalog. I wish that I had bought more than one back when it was available.
Perhaps there are still some retailers who have some sitting around in their
inventories.

Dan Hagen

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From: James Lofton <n5yyx_at_etsc.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Death by Tether
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 11:18:20 -0700
rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote:
> 
> Outfit3029_at_aol.com wrote:
> >
> > Ralph Diaz wrote:
> >
> > >Also I find it hard to think that anyone fishing would not have a knife
> > handy on his PFD.
> > I too find it difficult to believe that a fisherman did not have a knife
> > handy and would suggest that perhaps a knife was in hand, on deck or in the
> > bilge.
> > Since we are on the topic of tethers, let's tether our rescue knife to our
> > PFD.
> 
> Yes, I do.  Moreover, make certain it is a knife that will not slice
> your hand or pierce you were you to drop it (while on its tether) and
> then reach for it blindly and wind up grabbing the blade; or
> alternatively wind up on the point while dragging it on its tether and
> climbing back onboard.  I have such a knife that I have mentioned
> before.  It is a hard-to-find Gerber called the Survivor.  It has a
> blunt point and is only single edge with that edge consisting totally of
> large serrations.  I often demonstrate to others how I can grab the
> blade (even run it across my palm) and not cut myself; also I stab by
> palm with the tip to show that it will not draw blood.  I am in the
> market for another one of these as I have two different PFDs I use (I
> leave one with a stored boat and have the other PFD at home... I have
> sheaths on both but only one of these knives).
> 
> ralph diaz
>

Sure hope there isn't any NY muggers on this list, and find that your bad 
a**ed knife you carry is only good for cutting rope and spreading 
cheese!! :-)

While I can see the point(no pun intended)of having a speciality knife, I 
guess.. I was brought up the old fashioned way. Like all the guns ARE 
loaded, and yes, all the knives are razor sharp. 

A knife you can't hurt yourself with. Crocadile Dundie sp? wouldn't 
approve.

James

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From: Reeves, Debbie (Debbie) <"Reeves,>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Death by Tether
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 10:48:38 -0400
My knife (Gerber Rivery Shorty) will sink if I let go of it so I have
[closely] attached bright yellow floaters to it (that way I can see it even
if I drop it in dark water).  Interestingly, I've never seen anyone else who
has done this but I don't know why.  I do know many who have dropped their
knives and not be able to recover them.

Debs
Sandy Hook, NJ
> ----------
> From: 	Outfit3029_at_aol.com[SMTP:Outfit3029_at_aol.com]
> 
> I too find it difficult to believe that a fisherman did not have a knife 
> handy and would suggest that perhaps a knife was in hand, on deck or in
> the 
> bilge.
> Since we are on the topic of tethers, let's tether our rescue knife to our
> 
> PFD.
> 
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From: Joe Pylka <pylka_at_castle.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Death by Tether
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 11:25:58 -0400
>> I think that you have done an excellent job of extracting the proper
>> conclusions (given the information about the incident that you
>> provided). Although your subject line should perhaps read "Death by
>> Ill-Conceived Tether".


        In the quieter (waterwise) environment of the Sea Kayaker, a rope or
tether does not seem to be so threatening.  In whitewater, one must consider
the consequences more carefully.  There have been deaths wherein the vessel
went one way around a rock, while the occupant went another, with fatal
consequences.  Here in NJ there was a fatality a few years ago when a tuber
had it tied to his foot and that scenario happened.
        The current issue of American Whitewater mentions a fatality
involving a riverboarder who had it tethered to his foot.
        In the case that Doug Lloyd discussed, was that tether very short?
it wasn't fully clear in the text....
JP


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From: Mark Zen <canoeist_at_netbox.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Death by Tether
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 12:29:23 -0600 (MDT)
On Tue, 19 Oct 1999, Dan Hagen wrote:
> Ralph Diaz wrote:
> > ...<snip>... make certain it is a knife that will not slice
> > your hand or pierce you were you to drop it ...
> > ... I have such a knife that I have mentioned before.  It is a hard-to-find
> > Gerber called the Survivor.  It has a blunt point and is only single edge with
> > that edge consisting totally of large serrations.
> 
> I have one of these, and I agree that it is an excellent knife (for
> the reasons you state). Unfortunately, they apparently no longer make
> this model. It is not listed on their Web page, and it has been a
> while since I have seen it listed in any catalog. I wish that I had
> bought more than one back when it was available. Perhaps there are
> still some retailers who have some sitting around in their
> inventories.
> 
> Dan Hagen

what is significantly different between this knife and the river shorty?
it also has no point and no sharp edge, and a big serated edge? i think
it's biggest flaw is its shorty length, not allowing much pull when you
cut... ie lots and lots of short strokes, instead of a few long ones...

mark
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From: <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Death by Tether
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 17:19:45 -0700
Mark Zen wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 19 Oct 1999, Dan Hagen wrote:
> > Ralph Diaz wrote:
> > > ...<snip>... make certain it is a knife that will not slice
> > > your hand or pierce you were you to drop it ...
> > > ... I have such a knife that I have mentioned before.  It is a hard-to-find
> > > Gerber called the Survivor.  It has a blunt point and is only single edge with
> > > that edge consisting totally of large serrations.
> >
> > I have one of these, and I agree that it is an excellent knife (for
> > the reasons you state). Unfortunately, they apparently no longer make
> > this model. It is not listed on their Web page, and it has been a
> > while since I have seen it listed in any catalog. I wish that I had
> > bought more than one back when it was available. Perhaps there are
> > still some retailers who have some sitting around in their
> > inventories.
> >
> > Dan Hagen
> 
> what is significantly different between this knife and the river shorty?
> it also has no point and no sharp edge, and a big serated edge? i think
> it's biggest flaw is its shorty length, not allowing much pull when you
> cut... ie lots and lots of short strokes, instead of a few long ones...

I wasn't aware that the River Shorty came in a version with no sharp
edge at all.  The only one I saw was with a sharp edge somewhere on it. 
Also the River Shorty's tip while blunt does resemble a screw driver in
the sense that it has a squared off tip.  I know the right angles are
not particularly sharp but the Gerber Survivor's tip was as rounded off
as the back end of a collar stay.

A more important point.  Early on, when the Shorty was first introduced,
I heard tales on various 'Net groups that the knife did not hold well in
its sheath and was prone to fall out.  Is that true, was it true, is it
still true?  If the Shorty is okay in that department and I can't find
the old Survivor model, I will use a Shorty on my second PFD.  The
sheath (empty) on my second PFD is one that holds the bigger Gerber but
I could just change that.

ralph
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"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag."
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From: Chuck Holst <CHUCK_at_multitech.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Death by Tether
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 13:42:47 -0500
>>
> ... I have such a knife that I have mentioned before.  It is a   hard-to-find
> Gerber called the Survivor.  It has a blunt point and is only single   edge
with
> that edge consisting totally of large serrations.

I have one of these, and I agree that it is an excellent knife (for the
reasons you state). Unfortunately, they apparently no longer make this   model.
It is not listed on their Web page, and it has been a while since I have   seen
it listed in any catalog.
>>

Gerber makes a knife called the River Shorty that has a blade like this,
though the handle might be different.

Chuck Holst

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From: <juliom_at_cisco.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Death by Tether
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 12:28:49 -0700 (PDT)
That was an excellent report. And the fact that you contacted the
sheriff to get more detailed information is admirable. There were
some disturbing thoughts that came after reading your report, though.

Whether tethers are good or bad things to have is a matter of opinion. I
teach my students to exit their boats leaving one leg inside the cockpit
as being in contact with your boat should be voluntary, specially
in the surf.  We can debate on this on another thread.

The Inuit hunters carry a lot of rope in their forward cockpit, and
the risk of entanglement is high.  That is one of the reasons why
they have developed 30+ rolls that include rolling with more body
positions than most of us can think about.  They believe in increasing
safety by increasing their skill level, not by using gadgets.
In fact given a PFD, they would probably use it to roll up, like
  http://www.home.earthlink.net/~bonito/images/PFD_roll.jpg
It is possible that this kind of roll would have saved the victim.

Your post gives the impression that a knife is an all mighty gadget
that will save your life if you ever get entangled.  This can be tested
in controlled conditions in a pool--tie a string around your wrist,
capsize, and see if you can retrieve your knife and cut the line
in less than 20 seconds (that is more time than most people would
endure without breathing after capsizing by surprise).  Yes, a knife
increases your chances, but not dramatically, specially if you do 
not practice many possible scenarios regularly to keep your mind
clear when the situation becomes real.

Too much stuff for a single mail.  Food for thought folks!

- Julio

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From: Steve Cramer <cramer_at_coe.uga.edu>
subject: [Paddlewise] PFD Rolls
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 16:25:09 -0400
juliom_at_cisco.com wrote:
> 
> The Inuit hunters carry a lot of rope in their forward cockpit, and
> the risk of entanglement is high.  That is one of the reasons why
> they have developed 30+ rolls that include rolling with more body
> positions than most of us can think about.  They believe in increasing
> safety by increasing their skill level, not by using gadgets.
> In fact given a PFD, they would probably use it to roll up, like
>   http://www.home.earthlink.net/~bonito/images/PFD_roll.jpg
> It is possible that this kind of roll would have saved the victim.
> 
Speaking of PFD rolls...

When I teach rolling, I use PFD rolls as a mid-term exam for the
student's hip snap. If they're really using a good snap, it's easy to
roll up using a PFD. If they're pushing with their hands, it won't work.

So, one day last summer, after a lake paddle, I decided to see if I
could substitute a PFD for a hand roll. I can hand roll a WW boat, but
only rarely. So, while I was waiting for my wife to show up at the boat
ramp, I tethered the paddle, flipped over, unzipped the PFD,yanked it
off, and rolled back up. Hey, cool. (The subject of whether it is better
to be in boat, upright, without PFD or out of boat, with PFD is another
thread.)

Wanting to give her the benefit of this discovery, re-donned the PFD and
called to my wife, "Watch this!" Flip over, unzip PFD, remove PFD, try
to roll, and suddenly get totally confused. This roll's not going to
happen, so since I'm at the takeout anyway, and it's hot, let's just
bail and swim. 

Hanging below the kayak, I dropped the PFD. This, in retrospect, was a
mistake. Underwater, PFD's fall up. PFD's dropped in front of you fall
up and cover your grab loop. And wrap around the boat and plaster
themselves there with 15 pounds of flotation.

"Blub, blub," I said energetically, clawing my way past the PFD and
looking for the loop. I finally found it and swam. As I towed the boat
in, Meg said "Was I supposed to see something interesting?" 

All I could say was "You missed it."

Steve
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From: Michael Daly <michaeldaly_at_home.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Death by Tether
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 21:23:16 -0400
rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote:
> 
> A more important point.  Early on, when the Shorty was first introduced,
> I heard tales on various 'Net groups that the knife did not hold well in
> its sheath and was prone to fall out.  Is that true, was it true, is it
> still true?

I have used one for several years and it has never come out of the
sheath on its own.  I suspect that those who have a problem are
the ones that are constantly taking the knife in and out of the 
sheath (to cut bagels, spread peanut butter, whatever) and are
wearing down the knobby things that hold the handle into the
sheath. 

I assume that my rescue knife is strictly a rescue knife and
leave it in the sheath at all times.  I have a SAK for the 
bagels etc.  

Mike
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From: Mark Zen <canoeist_at_netbox.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Death by Tether
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 23:00:43 +0000
At 17:19 10/19/99 -0700, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote:
>> 
>> what is significantly different between this knife and the river shorty?
>> it also has no point and no sharp edge, and a big serated edge? i think
>> it's biggest flaw is its shorty length, not allowing much pull when you
>> cut... ie lots and lots of short strokes, instead of a few long ones...
>
>I wasn't aware that the River Shorty came in a version with no sharp
>edge at all.  The only one I saw was with a sharp edge somewhere on it. 
>Also the River Shorty's tip while blunt does resemble a screw driver in
>the sense that it has a squared off tip.  I know the right angles are
>not particularly sharp but the Gerber Survivor's tip was as rounded off
>as the back end of a collar stay.

it looks like there is a sharp edge, but it itsn't... i was quite surprised
when a friend bought one the other day... i was under the visual impression
the knife had one smooth edge, and one serrated edge, when there is really 
only a serrated edge...

>A more important point.  Early on, when the Shorty was first introduced,
>I heard tales on various 'Net groups that the knife did not hold well in
>its sheath and was prone to fall out.  Is that true, was it true, is it
>still true?  If the Shorty is okay in that department and I can't find
>the old Survivor model, I will use a Shorty on my second PFD.  The
>sheath (empty) on my second PFD is one that holds the bigger Gerber but
>I could just change that.
>
>ralph
>--

i would be curious about that too ... otherwise i am considering a folder
instead... with locking blade.

mark
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From: Doug Lloyd <dlloyd_at_bc.sympatico.ca>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Death by Tether
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 22:57:20 -0700
Julio wrote:
>That was an excellent report. And the fact that you contacted the
>sheriff to get more detailed information is admirable. There were
>some disturbing thoughts that came after reading your report, though.

Yea, you should see my phone bill. I also called Baffin Island on another
kayaker death I'm doing, and I think my wife is going to kill *me* when she
sees the bill. I will be calling the sheriff on Wed again, to find out
about the exact tether arrangement the dead kayaker used, and post the
results later this week.

>Whether tethers are good or bad things to have is a matter of opinion. I
>teach my students to exit their boats leaving one leg inside the cockpit
>as being in contact with your boat should be voluntary, specially
>in the surf.  We can debate on this on another thread.

We could. However, I will mention that one can easily "over coach" this
whole issue of wet exiting. I simply tell students that they should
maintain contact with their paddle and kayak. For some, that means the
"leg-in" method. For others, especially with deck lines running along side
the cockpit, it is easier to maintain a grip on the kayak as you exit. At a
minimum, I do tell newbies learning the wet exit to make sure they take off
their kayak like you would a pair of pants. The biggest issue teaching the
wet exit, other than the perception of danger of having to place your head
underwater and grabbing and pulling the grab loop, is getting them to make
sure the back of the skirt has also come off the coaming. Of course, the
bigger the cockpit and looser the skirt, the less of an issue all this is.
Personally, I find a wrist tether works well when wet exiting, as you then
only have to worry about the kayak. A paddle to boat tether is nice too,
because then if you have the paddle in hand, you also have the kayak. But
again, I wouldn't over coach the issue. And I totally agree, it is best to
teach all kayak rescue strategies from the perspective of no adjunctive
gear, then add stuff later as back-up. When I wet exit, I always turn my
head to the side that has the paddle if I can, then as I come out beside
the kayak, I rise to the surface with the paddle between me and the boat.

Getting back to my original accident post, I was not trying to advocate a
paddle tether (though I would on a different venue). I was simply trying to
make a point that in my opinion, the cockpit is not the best place to store
a paddle. However, I do not fish from a kayak, so don't know of all the
issues and complications. I belive Outside Magazine has a gear and
adventure supplement out on the newstands right now. On the front cover is,
you guessed it, "Extreme Fishing", and an article inside on fishing off the
coast of California by kayak. The marriage between the paddling and fishing
industries is just in the courting stages, but the love affair is bound to
be hot n' heavy. You can get a newsletter called "Yak Attack", and a
website exists at <kayakfishing.com> Ocean Kayak, makers of these SOTs, are
coming out with special gear, including paddle holders, etc. I hope safety
will be emphasized, and the need to be proficient in the sport of kayaking
as a whole. I also predict more deaths from kayak fishing related
activities.  

Anyway, if I have not addressed your point, it is probably due to that
nasty part of e-mail exchanges where one doesn't always understand the
question because immediate qualification of a statement is not possible
(plus I confuse easily!). I do know that enough people use tethers that you
can't arbitrarily discount them for the paddling populace at large.
 
>The Inuit hunters carry a lot of rope in their forward cockpit, and
>the risk of entanglement is high.  That is one of the reasons why
>they have developed 30+ rolls that include rolling with more body
>positions than most of us can think about.  They believe in increasing
>safety by increasing their skill level, not by using gadgets.
>In fact given a PFD, they would probably use it to roll up, like
>  http://www.home.earthlink.net/~bonito/images/PFD_roll.jpg
>It is possible that this kind of roll would have saved the victim.

Yes, right again Julio. However, your holy war against gadgets will not
succeed, not on this continent of gadget-guys and gadget-gals, especially
with Inspector Gadget, me, promoting gadgets and writing articles about
them and telling friends to buy things like Sea-Seats (c) if they paddle
solo in rough stuff. But the truth be know, your approach is refreshing and
your essential philosophy of keeping it simple with an emphasis on skill
development is actually at the heart of sea kayaking as a heritage,
lifestyle, and a sport. I have a friend like you, an avowed simpleton, er,
I'll rephrase that... an avowed promoter of simplicity, skill and technique
over brawn and gadgets. He stands in one corner, screaming his message,
while I stand in the other corner, shouting out the gospel of back-up
strategies ad infinitum. Somewhere in the middle of the ring is the truth.
And heck, Paul Caffyn didn't even use his PFD during an emergency paddle
float style self rescue - he used his sleeping pad. Like, whatever works. 

>Your post gives the impression that a knife is an all mighty gadget
>that will save your life if you ever get entangled.  This can be tested
>in controlled conditions in a pool--tie a string around your wrist,
>capsize, and see if you can retrieve your knife and cut the line
>in less than 20 seconds (that is more time than most people would
>endure without breathing after capsizing by surprise).  Yes, a knife
>increases your chances, but not dramatically, specially if you do 
>not practice many possible scenarios regularly to keep your mind
>clear when the situation becomes real.

Absolutely right on again, Julio. To think that a knife will get you out of
trouble, while upside down with seconds of air remaining if you went over
on an exhalation breath, is a fallacious notion indeed (see my other post,
also). However, my post took the moral high ground which prudence would
dictate that carrying a knife isn't just for old Sly, Sylvester Stallon. As
with any safety device, knife, flare, whatever, I always wonder what my
last thought would be if I needed said piece of equipment, and didn't have
it. That is why you see top kayakers like Chris Cunningham who lives and
breaths Inuit traditional kayaking, carrying lots of "gadgets" when he is
out tripping. But again, you do bring some balance into the "ring". Ding
Ding!!
   
>Too much stuff for a single mail.  Food for thought folks!

Wanna have a food fight? :-)

BC'in Ya
Doug Lloyd

>- Julio
>
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From: Reeves, Debbie (Debbie) <"Reeves,>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Death by Tether
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 14:00:15 -0400
Ralph -

I have had my River Shorty for a least 2 years and the only times it has
come out of its sheath was while doing rescues.  On each rescue day it only
came out once, so considering I probably was rescuer/rescuee 30 or more
times each day, that's pretty good.  I have never used it on the shoreline,
but I do take it out and rinse it after every saltwater trip (but it is
still rusting).

Debs

> ----------
> From: 	rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com[SMTP:rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com]
> 
> A more important point.  Early on, when the Shorty was first introduced,
> I heard tales on various 'Net groups that the knife did not hold well in
> its sheath and was prone to fall out.  Is that true, was it true, is it
> still true?  
> 
> 
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From: <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Death by Tether
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 14:15:45 -0700
Reeves, Debbie (Debbie) wrote:
> 
> Ralph -
> 
> I have had my River Shorty for a least 2 years and the only times it has
> come out of its sheath was while doing rescues.  On each rescue day it only
> came out once, so considering I probably was rescuer/rescuee 30 or more
> times each day, that's pretty good.  I have never used it on the shoreline,
> but I do take it out and rinse it after every saltwater trip (but it is
> still rusting).
> 
> Debs

That sounds like an okay record regarding how well it holds in the
sheath.

BTW, they all rust no matter what the claims about being stainless steel
and no matter how much you rinse with fresh water.  Maybe it is the high
salinity of the saltwater in places around here.  I have noticed that I
get more rust when paddling in shallow areas of Long Island Sound like
City Island or Great South Bay on Long Island's South Shore than I do in
the harbor which has fresh water flow from the Hudson.

I don't rinse mine, and, of course, it rusts.  The rust has not at all
been on the blade, just in the handle area.  All I watch is that the
rust not get in the way of the flexible stainless steel clamp part of
the knife that holds it in its sheath.  Every year or so, I use WD 40 to
break up the rust and rub the most persistent rust areas with fine sand
paper.

ralph diaz
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From: <JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Death by Tether
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 15:00:39 EDT
Another testimonial for the River Shorty: I've had one on the lashing patch of my PFD for about seven years.  Was concerned with pendant (i.e., handle down) mounting of that knife --- which the manufacturer specifically recommended *not* doing when I bought it --- but have not had any problems with it coming loose.  Did add some duct tape to the handle where it engages the teeth in the sheath to add more purchase when I ran it back in, and that did seem to add some resistance.  Good knife.  And, yes, stainless steel rusts --- just has some better resistive powers than other metals.

Jack Martin
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From: <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Death by Tether
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:18:01 -0700
Jack Martin mentions using Thule or Yakima racks with pads on them and a
kayak stacker in the middle of the bars.  I used such a setup for years
and it worked real well.  The pads were more than enough to protect
delicate little ole folding kayaks and the stackers in the middle gave a
firm anchor to secure the tied down boats from the sideways pressures
created by speeding truck and trailers.  Nothing could be more solid.


ralph
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From: Elaine Harmon <eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Death by Tether
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 09:01:56 -0400 (EDT)
On Wed, 20 Oct 1999 rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote:

> Jack Martin mentions using Thule or Yakima racks with pads on them and a
> kayak stacker in the middle of the bars.  I used such a setup for years
> and it worked real well.  The pads were more than enough to protect
> delicate little ole folding kayaks 

Hi guys, folks have mentioned using straight pads with folding kayaks, and
I keep wondering, what happens when you strap it down? Seems like it would
then ride on the keel tube plus one chine tube, instead of straight with
the keel tube down. Then I'd worry that some kind of distortion might
occur in a long trip. Not a problem? e

Elaine Harmon - eilidh_at_dc.seflin.org - eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu

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From: <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Death by Tether
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 09:55:12 -0700
Elaine Harmon wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 20 Oct 1999 rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote:
> 
> > Jack Martin mentions using Thule or Yakima racks with pads on them and a
> > kayak stacker in the middle of the bars.  I used such a setup for years
> > and it worked real well.  The pads were more than enough to protect
> > delicate little ole folding kayaks
> 
> Hi guys, folks have mentioned using straight pads with folding kayaks, and
> I keep wondering, what happens when you strap it down? Seems like it would
> then ride on the keel tube plus one chine tube, instead of straight with
> the keel tube down. Then I'd worry that some kind of distortion might
> occur in a long trip. Not a problem? e
> 
> Elaine Harmon - eilidh_at_dc.seflin.org - eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu


Elaine,

Not a problem with straight pads.  I've done it with both wooden framed
and aluminum framed folding kayaks of every kind and every width. 
Moreover, I have not been dainty about how hard I pull down on the
webbing straps.  I pull down so hard on such straps that I scared the
hell out of a lady paddler when I started to do the same with her kevlar
kayak when her precious boat was riding on straight pads on my mini-van.

Yes, invariably, the boat will tilt to one side so that, in addition to
the keel bar, a chine stringer will also be in contact with the pad. 
However, do make certain to use some sort of pad since pressing down on
a wooden framed boat while on an un-cushioned naked roof rack bar could
break a wooden chine rod (I don't know how an aluminum chine rod would
do).  I had that happen once, the only time in 10 years that I have ever
broken anything on a wooden framed folding kayak.  Serves the boat right
for trying to imitate hardshells by riding on roof racks and showing off
to the motoring public. :-)

As for possible distortion, it ain't going to happen unless you get
Arnold Swartznegger to lash your boat down.  The pressures that would
distort the folding kayak resting on keel and chine would also be enough
to damage many a hardshell, i.e. it ain't going to happen with mere
mortals doing the lashing down.

Also, I do not let air out of the sponsons at all unless it promises to
be a particularly hot day with brutal sun and I am starting off early in
a cool morning (the heated up expanding in the sponson under such
extreme temperature changes could stress the sponsons).  Keeping air in
the sponsons allows the webbing straps to press in hard at their point
of contact with the sides of the folding kayak and indent them by quite
a bit, thus adding to the grip on the boat against forward movement in
the event of panic braking.

So leave the sponsons full of air except for the above extreme
temperature change situation or if you expect to go through a rapid
elevation change such as you may see in California if headed to mountain
lakes.  In the latter the altitude change could cause a popped sponson
as the compressed air expands with the lower ambient air pressures. 

ralph diaz
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From: Elaine Harmon <eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Death by Tether
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 10:26:30 -0400 (EDT)
On Thu, 21 Oct 1999 rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote:

> As for possible distortion, it ain't going to happen unless you get
> Arnold Swartznegger to lash your boat down.  

If I could do that, I'd get him to lash me down instead....

e, who always wondered about B&D but hardly ever got to try it

Elaine Harmon - eilidh_at_dc.seflin.org - eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu

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From: Walt Chudleigh <Wchudleigh_at_sisna.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Death by Tether
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 21:46:06 -0600
JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com wrote:
> 
> Another testimonial for the River Shorty: I've had one on the lashing patch of my PFD for about seven years.  Was concerned with pendant 
<snip>

I like the Gerber knives very much.  However we have lost 2 of the four
I bought for my two sons, daughter and myself.  One just disappeared- no
idea when it came out of the sheath.  The other was dislodged when my
son was pulling himself onto our cataraft after a cool down swim.  It
caught on the raft frame, popped out and sank.  The tether idea sounds
good despite the potential problems. FWIW An acquaintance of mine was
nearly killed when a rope wrapped around his leg while he was lining a
boat on a river.  He was dragged over 100 yards and swore that he would
never go near a boat without a rescue knife on his PFD again.  A knife
may not be a panacea but it increases the odds of a safe trip.

Walt
Park City, UT
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From: <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Death by Tether
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 08:54:08 -0700
Walt Chudleigh wrote:

> caught on the raft frame, popped out and sank.  The tether idea sounds
> good despite the potential problems. FWIW An acquaintance of mine was
> nearly killed when a rope wrapped around his leg while he was lining a
> boat on a river.  He was dragged over 100 yards and swore that he would
> never go near a boat without a rescue knife on his PFD again.  A knife
> may not be a panacea but it increases the odds of a safe trip.

When I first started kayaking the last thing I wanted was to effect the
Rambo look or the Reynolds look from Deliverance, i.e. big macho knife
hanging upside down from one shoulder at the ready.  But one day I was
attending one of the million demo days, that most of us beginners seem
to search out when we first start off.

There was a guy who I respected very much, a quiet individual with no
flair for the dramatic or a macho bone in his body.  This time he was
sporting a knife on his PFD a la Rambo as he was demonstrating something
or other.  I asked "Why the knife?"  And he went into a long story about
getting caught by some line when wet exiting or attempting to roll.  He
was barely able to get his head above water and I can't recall how it
was all resolved.  But he realized then that a knife would have reduced
a difficult situation from panic to manageable.

Of course within a week I got a knife and the devil with the macho look
ans stares I often get  for it.

On tethers, as a result of the discussions here I have gotten a River
Shorty as a knife for my second PFD that resides with a boat I keep
assembled.  While considering tethers, I hit upon an interesting
solution of where to connect to.  I can't remember if I have shared this
on Paddlewise or in private email but for what it is worth here is a
workable solution for tether length and where to connect the non-knife
end of the tether (I retrofitted this to my other PFD as well).

Most sheaths that come with knives have a small hole at the tip area. 
Provided that the sheath itself is well secured to the PFD via one of
those lash tabs almost all PFDs have, you can secure the non-knife end
of the tether to that hole.  That small hole will accept the kind of
ring used to hold keys.  The non-knife end of the tether, if equipped
with a snap hook, can secure to that ring.  This way you can instantly
detach your knife from the sheath if you want to hand it over to someone
or use it yourself away from your PFD.  I have been using such a snap
hook for about 10 years; it is nickle plated, has a swivel eyehole for
tying the tether to and is available from West Marine; it has shown zero
corrosion.

As for tether line length, basically aim for enough line to be able to
hold the knife and, more or less, be able to straighten out your arm. I
am left handed and almost all knife tabs are on the left shoulder of
PFDs.  So my tether is a lot shorter than one that would go across my
torso in a cross body pull (i.e. left shoulder tabs favor a right hand
pull).  Figure out if the length of line may be too much and possibly
entangle you.  My tether is just 19 inches long (even though I have long
arms, the tether attachment to the sheath's tip helps reduce the length
of tether I need to stretch out my arm when hold the knife).

Use non-stretch line not parachute line as the latter tends to cling
more if it catches on you, I guess because of its surface and
stretchiness.  The line then hangs in a loop from the sheath with one
end (the snap hook) attached to the key ring in the sheath's tip and the
other end from the rear part of the handle where it is tied.  The loop
is relatively short and not likely to get snagged.  However, if you are
still nervous and there is a pocket in the immediate area or some
webbing through which you can gather part of that loop, do so; but make
certain that the gathered line will flow out unimpeded when the knife is
needed.

I hope this is helpful.  Do your own experimenting to see what will work
for you, though.

ralph diaz

    
-- 
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Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter
PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024
Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com
"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag."
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From: Robert Woodard <woodardr_at_tidalwave.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Death by Tether
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 16:57:29 -0400
> Use non-stretch line not parachute line as the latter tends to cling
> more if it catches on you, I guess because of its surface and
> stretchiness.

<snip>

> I hope this is helpful.  Do your own experimenting to see what will work
> for you, though.

Hi Ralph,

I haven't done this yet but thought I'd bounce it off you and the other
PW'ers to see what you think:

I'm thinking for something like this; I want a low strength tether. I want
it strong enough to keep it from falling into the big blue should I drop it,
but weak enough that I could snap it with a sturdy yank if it became
entangled. The thin diameter might make it small enough that I could then
stuff the tether into the knife sheath. That might be a hassle for someone
who uses their knife for other things, but for me there would be little need
to take it out of the sheath except to dry or if the you know what hits the
fan.

Can you folks think of the down side(s) to this arrangement? I suppose you
could cut the tether pulling it out of the sheath. But it would be out of
the way and less likely to tangle if packed carefully.

Woody


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From: Bob Denton <BDenton_at_aquagulf.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Death by Tether
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 16:40:20 -0400
I keep my river shorty lathered in silicone grease

 -----Original Message-----
From: 	owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net
[mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]  On Behalf Of
JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com
Sent:	Wednesday, October 20, 1999 3:01 PM
To:	rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com; dreeves_at_lucent.com
Cc:	canoeist_at_netbox.com; paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net
Subject:	Re: [Paddlewise] Death by Tether

Another testimonial for the River Shorty: I've had one on the lashing patch
of my PFD for about seven years.  Was concerned with pendant (i.e., handle
down) mounting of that knife --- which the manufacturer specifically
recommended *not* doing when I bought it --- but have not had any problems
with it coming loose.  Did add some duct tape to the handle where it engages
the teeth in the sheath to add more purchase when I ran it back in, and that
did seem to add some resistance.  Good knife.  And, yes, stainless steel
rusts --- just has some better resistive powers than other metals.

Jack Martin
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From: <volinjo_at_juno.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Death by Tether
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 22:32:41 -0400
We have River Shorties and neither one of us has ever had it come out
unintentionally, not even when doing rescues.  

After each trip we take the knives out of their sheathes and at least
wipe them down.  We don't put them back until we're ready to go out
again, so they have plenty of time to dry.  (There's an opening in the
handle, so we just slip it over the hanger that the PFD is hanging on). 
Two knives - about a year & a half old - no rust.

Joan & Bob

On Wed, 20 Oct 1999 14:15:45 -0700 rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com writes:
> Reeves, Debbie (Debbie) wrote:
> > 
> > Ralph -
> > 
> > I have had my River Shorty for a least 2 years and the only times 
> it has
> > come out of its sheath was while doing rescues.  On each rescue 
> day it only
> > came out once, so considering I probably was rescuer/rescuee 30 or 
> more
> > times each day, that's pretty good.  I have never used it on the 
> shoreline,
> > but I do take it out and rinse it after every saltwater trip (but 
> it is
> > still rusting).
> > 
> > Debs
> 
> That sounds like an okay record regarding how well it holds in the
> sheath.
> 
> BTW, they all rust no matter what the claims about being stainless 
> steel
> and no matter how much you rinse with fresh water.  Maybe it is the 
> high
> salinity of the saltwater in places around here.  I have noticed 
> that I
> get more rust when paddling in shallow areas of Long Island Sound 
> like
> City Island or Great South Bay on Long Island's South Shore than I 
> do in
> the harbor which has fresh water flow from the Hudson.
> 
> I don't rinse mine, and, of course, it rusts.  The rust has not at 
> all
> been on the blade, just in the handle area.  All I watch is that the
> rust not get in the way of the flexible stainless steel clamp part of
> the knife that holds it in its sheath.  Every year or so, I use WD 
> 40 to
> break up the rust and rub the most persistent rust areas with fine 
> sand
> paper.
> 
> ralph diaz
> -- 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter
> PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024
> Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com
> "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag."
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>
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From: Kingfisher Wilderness Adventures Ltd <kingfshr_at_idmail.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Death by Tether
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 22:15:15 -0700
Ralph Diaz wrote:

> The loop is relatively short and not likely to get snagged.  However, if
you are
>still nervous and there is a pocket in the immediate area or some
>webbing through which you can gather part of that loop, do so; but make
>certain that the gathered line will flow out unimpeded when the knife is
>needed.
>
>I hope this is helpful.  Do your own experimenting to see what will work
>for you, though.


I thought I would take Ralph advice and experiment with a tether for my
knife.

I have always been concerned with having a  loop of string hanging off my
vest and having it snag on things. I just realized I had the solution on my
fishing vest, a small device that retracts its own string. I use it to keep
my line clippers and forceps handy and not have to worry about dropping them
in the water. They have a pin on the back to clip to your vest and are about
the size of a nickel. You can pick these up at any fishing store for a
couple of bucks and can buy different sizes with line ranging from 12 to 36
inches in length.

I have used these things for years on my fishing vest without any trouble
 but I've never used one in salt water ). I hope to try it out on the water
( and maybe beneath ) with my Gerber River Shorty this weekend and see how
effective it works.

Interested to hear anyones thoughts on shortcomings of this system.

Andrew Jones
______________________________

Kingfisher Wilderness Adventures Ltd.
North Vancouver, BC, Canada
Ph.  604-831-6180

kingfshr_at_idmail.com

www.kingfisher-adventures.com
______________________________

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From: <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Death by Tether
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 11:37:23 -0700
Kingfisher Wilderness Adventures Ltd wrote:

> I thought I would take Ralph advice and experiment with a tether for my
> knife.
> 
> I have always been concerned with having a  loop of string hanging off my
> vest and having it snag on things. I just realized I had the solution on my
> fishing vest, a small device that retracts its own string. I use it to keep
> my line clippers and forceps handy and not have to worry about dropping them
> in the water. They have a pin on the back to clip to your vest and are about
> the size of a nickel. You can pick these up at any fishing store for a
> couple of bucks and can buy different sizes with line ranging from 12 to 36
> inches in length.
> 
> I have used these things for years on my fishing vest without any trouble
>  but I've never used one in salt water ). I hope to try it out on the water
> ( and maybe beneath ) with my Gerber River Shorty this weekend and see how
> effective it works.
> 
> Interested to hear anyones thoughts on shortcomings of this system.

I have also looked at them and they may make sense.  Even if they were
not to hold up to saltwater (which I see no reason why they wouldn't
hold up), you could replace them every few years.

Also Bob Woodward asked about using line that could break if in an
emergency you got entangled with your knife tether.  Probably would work
since all you want the knife tether to do is to allow you to drop the
knife and still recover it rather than it get lost to the deep blue
sea.  It doesn't need the strength of a paddle tether where you might
have to hang on to a boat that is running away from you in the wind. 
The latter tether needs some holding power.  A knife one need not have
so much strenght.

ralph
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter
PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024
Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com
"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag."
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From: Robert Woodard <woodardr_at_tidalwave.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Death by Tether
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 18:24:11 -0400
> I just realized I had the solution on my
> fishing vest, a small device that retracts its own string. I use
> it to keep my line clippers and forceps handy and not have to worry about
> dropping them in the water.

I use something like this to hold my security badge for work. About the
diameter of a quarter. I had just assumed the spring would quickly rust in
salt water, but now that I see they make them for fishing, it may be an
ideal solution! The string is also fine enough you could probably break it
if it was standing between you and entrapment.

Woody


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From: Chuck Holst <CHUCK_at_multitech.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Death by Tether
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 11:13:08 -0500
>>
Also Bob Woodward asked about using line that could break if in an
emergency you got entangled with your knife tether.  Probably would work
since all you want the knife tether to do is to allow you to drop the
knife and still recover it rather than it get lost to the deep blue
sea.  It doesn't need the strength of a paddle tether where you might
have to hang on to a boat that is running away from you in the wind. 
The latter tether needs some holding power.  A knife one need not have
so much strenght.

ralph
>>

However, it might not prevent you from losing your knife if it snags on 
the kayak during a reentry.

Chuck Holst
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From: Andree Hurley <ahurley_at_viewit.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Death by Tether
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 14:49:13 -0400 (EDT)
I haven't been paying attention to this thread until now, but....let's see
if I'm on the right track - at the last trade show Charlie Wahlbridge
(sp?) and I had a conversation in the Extrasport booth about how knives
always hit me in the chin. In whitewater it's nice to have them on the
shoulder so your opposite hand hand just reach up and pull straight down.
He recommended a small Spyderco Clipit Jr. and.....a custom-made sheath by
someone at the Nantahala Outdoor Center. I got the knife and put it in my
lifejacket pocket tied by some small rope, but of course as I've been
teaching a lot of coastal kayaking lately, I took it out the other day to
find it rusted already. I took note of the fixes for that earlier. I wish
rust wasn't such a problem, it's hard to keep up with all the rinsing,
etc.

Andree Hurley
Hurley Design Communications - ICQ# 27469637
On-line Editor - http://www.canoekayak.com
Other Kayaking - http://www.onwatersports.com
Web Sites for Specialty Businesses -  http://www.viewit.com/HDC/


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From: James Lofton <n5yyx_at_etsc.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Death by Tether
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:43:14 -0700
rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote:
> 
> Kingfisher Wilderness Adventures Ltd wrote:
> 
> > I thought I would take Ralph advice and experiment with a tether for my
> > knife.
> >
> > I have always been concerned with having a  loop of string hanging off my
> > vest and having it snag on things. I just realized I had the solution on my
> > fishing vest, a small device that retracts its own string. I use it to keep
> > my line clippers and forceps handy and not have to worry about dropping them
> > in the water. They have a pin on the back to clip to your vest and are about
> > the size of a nickel. You can pick these up at any fishing store for a
> > couple of bucks and can buy different sizes with line ranging from 12 to 36
> > inches in length.
> >
> > I have used these things for years on my fishing vest without any trouble
> >  but I've never used one in salt water ). I hope to try it out on the water
> > ( and maybe beneath ) with my Gerber River Shorty this weekend and see how
> > effective it works.
> >
> > Interested to hear anyones thoughts on shortcomings of this system.
> 
> I have also looked at them and they may make sense.  Even if they were
> not to hold up to saltwater (which I see no reason why they wouldn't
> hold up), you could replace them every few years.
>SNIP<

One might also check to make sure the knife will not be able to snap back 
at you, if you dropped it. That was the first thing that came to my mind. 
Kind of like on a bungie.. Sure would ruin your day to be stabbed in the 
face(or anywhere)by a knife that slipped out of your hand and the tether 
was under tension.

James

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